Ross Tucker: NYG players fear JPP will dog it once he's paid

If Cruz doesn't fully rebound, they will have to force a pay cut or cut him. He's making too much money.

In comment 12291117 JonC said:

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but in Cruz's case, he took about $8.5M AAV when the market was around $12M. If JPP signed for what the team was rumored to be offering ($11-12M AAV) instead of the agent pushing for $16M+, I think we'd be more willing to sign off on it.

His market was never that as far as the Giants were concern. I remember those negotiations when Reese categorized him as a SLOT receiver but everyone knew coaches would look to use him more on the outside moving forward. Giants are thrifty. Every other day the Giants were leaking it out that his contract should reflect the going rate for slot receivers.

In comment 12291114 arcarsenal said:

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My comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek but I do worry about his commitment to really being the best player he can. It really wouldn't shock me if he got paid and got a bit lax. He just doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who has the same drive that certain others have. Victor Cruz strikes me as that. OBJ strikes me as that. Not so much JPP.

I kind of agree, but hate to read too much into snippets of their lives. I do find this type of stuff plausible, even though I don't put much weight into it.

I remember in 2012 he looked fat and everyone laughed at those who pointed it out. Then he had a pedestrian season and looked a bit slower.

I would have traded him a while ago.

You're wasting energy going off-point.

Don't shoot the messenger..

he still has the 9th highest WR contract at 8.6M aav and 13th highest in total guaranteed $. and he's a year into it.

Now much more did he deserve?

the list of players with AAV higher than him are:
Calvin
Dez
Demaryius
Mike Wallace
Vincent Jackson
Fitz
Maclin
Cobb
Marshall
Cruz

Mike Wallace was an overpay, hard to argue with the others (Maclin and Cobb signed this off-season), Dez and Demaryius are on the FT.

The point is, he is the best player on your defense. Don't get cute. Unless your trading him for JJ Watt there is no use in speculating about unknown commodities.

In comment 12291118 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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In comment 12291075 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: In comment 12291072 arcarsenal said: Quote: Well, considering he got fat and lazy after a Super Bowl.. I can't fault anyone for assuming it would happen once he got paid. JPP works incredibly hard on the field. I don't recall him taking plays off even when he looked a bit heavy. Working hard on the field isn't even half the battle IMO. It's a 60 minute game. You have to work hard off the field so it pays off when you work hard on it. There are plenty of players that put it all out their on the field/court but could have been so much more if they put that same effort into the gym/diet.

You're absolutely right. it's just that I know how he works on the field, while I don't know his diet or workouts so it'd be unwise for me to comment on it.

and then let him walk.

In comment 12291018 djm said:

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What's the saying? Believe half of what you hear and none of what you read?

Don't believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. It's a lot like what my painter friend Donald said of JPP, "Stick a fork in his ass and turn him over, he's done."

In comment 12291146 JonC said:

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You're wasting energy going off-point.

But it isn't off point. The Giants have a real history of finding flaws in their own FAs during contract negotiations. Whether it is Steve Smith, Linval Joseph, Strahan, Osi, etc. Now with the rookie pay scale, securing a second contract with the Giants will be like unlocking a video game achievement.

but some other thoughts:

1) JPP had a great season surrounded by solid veterans. He is now the veteran and if there is a question about commitment and effort once he is paid you can imagine why that question would be even bigger without big time vets to push him.

2) LT may have dogged it but JPP isn't even close to the impact player LT was, even if LT was dogging it. LT was a once in a life-time player and JPP is right now just a good DE with a very up and down career the last few years.

3) Cruz is one of those guys who to me is the victim of injury and circumstance. When at full strength Cruz was playing in a very poor offense (since last Super Bowl) and when offense started to play well he was injured. Contract may exceed performance but that may be circumstance and not effort and personal production related.

The one good thing here is that JPP is still young and perhaps has learned from previous mistakes but time will tell there.

that you never felt this way.

is a reason why drafting, developing players, and coaching are important. A variable player and not consistent. Team should have been looking for his replacement long ago instead of this position with the tag.

play this up-comming year under the franchise tag. I think not only how he plays on the field but how he comports himself to playing out under the tag will be a good barometer of whether he has matured and whether he is worth the longer term investment. Also, it is way early but if it is a strong FA class next year, we could be major players, if the organization decides to part ways with JPP. Eli will need to be resigned but there will be a lot of money comming off the books. next year.

I would be interested to hear anyone point to me where Pierre-Paul has dogged it on the field. He plays the run exceptionally well. Lazy players don't do that. But since we think he's lazy, we'll just ignore that to continue believing what we think.

is a dog, and aside from 1 season, where he dominated a few plays per game, he's been as Banks would say, "Just another guy" ... he sure acts tough, tossing teammates half his size around into cold tubs ...

In comment 12291201 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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I would be interested to hear anyone point to me where Pierre-Paul has dogged it on the field. He plays the run exceptionally well. Lazy players don't do that. But since we think he's lazy, we'll just ignore that to continue believing what we think.

I can see it fresh as the morning dew, many a play where he is lolli-gagging it to the next play, then standing with his hands on his hips, dis-interested btw plays ... you never saw Strahan do this, fought through double teams and cheap shots every play and still is 5x the player JPP thinks he is ...

he's done? The guy was arguably the best 4-3 DE in all of football this last season.

If JPP is done i'd love to see the guy that isn't done.

a basic fact remains: the defense has sucked every year he's been here. That's obviously not solely on him, but if we're talking about the kind of money he wants it's fair to ask if there is a cheaper way to skin the cat.

In comment 12291237 Go Terps said:

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a basic fact remains: the defense has sucked every year he's been here. That's obviously not solely on him, but if we're talking about the kind of money he wants it's fair to ask if there is a cheaper way to skin the cat.

Is that just a JPP thing or we going to hold highly paid offensive players to those same standards.

In comment 12291237 Go Terps said:

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a basic fact remains: the defense has sucked every year he's been here. That's obviously not solely on him, but if we're talking about the kind of money he wants it's fair to ask if there is a cheaper way to skin the cat.

Yet at the same time only once has the defense around recent free agent Suh reached top ten status. That fact didn't cause you and others to downgrade his accomplishments or potential. If you are willing to overlook Suh's flaws then you should be willing to do the same for JPP
Link - ( New Window )

As you alluded to, there are many reasons why this defense has sucked the last few seasons. A terrible defensive coordinator, lack of overall talent and JPP's nagging back injury are probably all factors (among many others) that played into that.

I think it's fair to be worried about his back and proceed with caution when negotiating, which appears to be the Giants current stance.

I don't see how you can make the case that he is lazy or a dog however. I also don't think you trade away impact players unless they are team cancers. You were ultimately right about Plaxico and Shockey, but I think you would be wrong to imply trading JPP here.

You win in the NFL with impact players, that's what JPP is. Think 2011 @ Dallas. Eli and JPP won that game pretty much on their own.

I'm all for paying top dollar if the quality is worth that dollar. I don't think JPP is close to being worth the cost.

As for the offense, the offense has carried this team since 2009. From 2008-2012 they were top ten in points scored. Last year back up to 13th and I'd bet money they finish top ten this year.

The Giants have given up 23.4 points per game since they drafted JPP. Their average NFL rank in that category each year is 19th. If we're talking about paying a guy like he's a difference maker, I'd like to see a difference being made.

I don't have to make the case that's he's lazy or a dog... Apparently his teammates are making the case.

JPP is a large man that has five years of games under his belt. That's five years of injuries too. And there appears to be anecdotal evidence to question his work ethic...

That all adds up to one most likely conclusion: JPP, while talented, has likely given the NFL the best he's got to offer, and he'll not likely offer it again.

Charles Woodson is going to the Hall of Fame and he's played on some terrible defenses. JJ Watt led the Texans to the 24th ranked scoring defense in 2013.

You can't apply the Reggie White type of standards to everyone.

And he struggles a little staying motivated on a team with an overall shitty defense and a losing record. It takes a special player to stay motivated when your record is 2 and 8. Wait until this team is in the thick of it this year and you'll see JPP playing like the mad man we saw in 2011. I believe this is why his play really started to come on later in the season last year as the team became more competitive.

In comment 12291288 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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Charles Woodson is going to the Hall of Fame and he's played on some terrible defenses. JJ Watt led the Texans to the 24th ranked scoring defense in 2013. You can't apply the Reggie White type of standards to everyone.

Yes I can, if we're going to pay him like he's Reggie White.

from the conversation - like you know Reese has - and ask yourself are the Giants better with or without him.

And then when they set their value on him - because 100% they're better with him - and he asks for more than their value - you have to ask yourself how much worse are they with his potential replacement.

you can throw all the stats out there you want, I think this year will be very enlightening. with Spags creativity and ideally improved talent from the past couple years I'm interested in seeing how JPP's play responds.

Barring injury, the front office probably already knows if they want to keep him beyond 2015 or not. Even if he's a monster in 2015 it doesn't mean he will be in 2016 and beyond.

In comment 12291315 Go Terps said:

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Barring injury, the front office probably already knows if they want to keep him beyond 2015 or not. Even if he's a monster in 2015 it doesn't mean he will be in 2016 and beyond.

Why do you think that? Have they made that same decision about Eli?

While I think it's almost 100% certainty the Giants want Eli back the fact he's possibly going to hit FA/FT sheds some doubt.

Same with JPP, I think they might want him back, but at their price. So I don't know we can draw conclusions.

Possible, but I'd be shocked if they viewed Eli and JPP similarly. With Eli it feels like part of the negotiating process. With JPP I don't think they trust him.

In comment 12291350 Go Terps said:

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Possible, but I'd be shocked if they viewed Eli and JPP similarly. With Eli it feels like part of the negotiating process. With JPP I don't think they trust him.

of course not, I wasn't making a straight comparison, just situationally. And I can almost guarantee someone out there is willing to pay more for both than the Giants are.

worst case it it would be nice to get an extra 3rd round comp pick if JPP signs elsewhere and the Giants don't offset it with another signing.

give out haphazard contracts.

I agree that JPP is not worthy of highest paid defensive player or defensive end status based on the questions with his back.

On the other hand, JPP has proven that he is an impact player when healthy.

There is alot of area in between handing him whatever money he wants and trading him away.

Certainly a big concern of mine

In comment 12291483 Big Blue '56 said:

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Certainly a big concern of mine

I second the motion. He had a huge year during our last SB run and was clearly out of shape during the off-season.

My friend has met him in Hoboken a few times. Told my friend that the Giants outright "QUIT" the 2nd half of the Seattle game last year but not on TC. Didn't say anything about Fewell to him.

I would let JPP play it out, let him get his big money elsewhere and we get a 3rd round comp pick for losing him. We get to keep the tag.

I we tag him again (a big possibity though admittedly I am getting ahead of myself here...we see how he does).

In comment 12291011 BrettNYG10 said:

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In comment 12290999 Headhunter said: Quote: have the balls to name the players that said that And never get any information again? Good plan.

Exactly.

and lets face it-is not the sharpest tool in the shed. Reese is very smart to not sign him to some mega contract. He just has not produced at that level and there are red flags galore. If he has a CONSISTENT 12-16 sacks season maybe I would reconsider. Doubt it happens.

ago from a player on the team. Said he's the last one to show up, first to leave type of player.

big money. I hate the justification "he's the best player we have on D, we can't let him leave!" If he's going to mail it in once he's paid it doesn't matter how good he is. Last year he turned it on and racked up some garbage stats at the end of the season. I hope they let him walk.

Everyone gets hurt. Jpp has missed s handful of games his entire career. When you say he's injury prone who are you comparing him to? Jim Marshall?

He played every game last season. His worst season he played what 14 games? Injury prone? What does that make a guy like prince? He missed more games than jpp but we can wait to sign this guy long term.

If the money is right you re-sign jpp. You're in this business to win and jpp is a winning player. Again the money has to be right.

I'd bet this was put out by the organization as a negotiating ploy to drive his price down.

he has filled a vacuum on sirius by doing any and every show that needed an opinion, I hate listening to him. He has even infiltrated the fantasy football channel on sirius where he is even more worthless. I won't deny he knows football, but some of his takes are just unbearable. I don't know if he actually has heard these kind of things from actual Giants players, or he heard someone heard them, it doesnt really matter, he remains a tool.

I am not worried JPP will tank after getting a big contract with guaranteed money. I think the Giants did the right thing by franchising him, and hopefully they didn't do it to buy time to negotiate a contract. His injury history and lack of production related to it are just too risky to know that he is the guy to pay big money to. In their current situation they can not do without him, so they franchised him. Now drafting OO and D Moore with another season, perhaps they can move on after 2015 and let him go in FA. 20 million for a second franchise tag season is a bitch to pay, and for them to give him the big money contract he would have to have a season like his second year in the league, staying healthy all year. They would have moved on from him this season if they had anyone they had confidence in to take his place. So to me its more about his injury history than him potentially slacking once receiving a big money deal.

This is isn't a figment of the imagination, this has followed him since his second pro season. Anyone knowledgeable enough could sit and break down game video and see where effort isn't where it should be.

In comment 12292272 JonC said:

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This is isn't a figment of the imagination, this has followed him since his second pro season. Anyone knowledgeable enough could sit and break down game video and see where effort isn't where it should be.

His effort is uneven. I've seen him bust his ass for 3 plays and take two off.
Drives me nuts. He'd be in the top 3 league wide if he'd show up in shape AND give a great effort on every play.

fighting injuries. That said, I don't put much value on a player who is injured 50% of the time he's been with us. I don't know how accurate that 50% figure is but it seems to me to be at least that. And if not than why has his play been subpar so often?

In my mind he's a good player but far from great. And as inconsistent that he is, I think it's sad that we had to put a franchise tag on him and mostly because we don't have anything better in that key position. This is why I'm excited to see what Odigiddy can do.

In comment 12292280 dorgan said:

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In comment 12292272 JonC said: Quote: This is isn't a figment of the imagination, this has followed him since his second pro season. Anyone knowledgeable enough could sit and break down game video and see where effort isn't where it should be. His effort is uneven. I've seen him bust his ass for 3 plays and take two off. Drives me nuts. He'd be in the top 3 league wide if he'd show up in shape AND give a great effort on every play.

Agreed, and it's that very thing that prevents him from being the player the fans believe he is.

Look jpp is a good pass rusher but he is much closer to Osi against the run than Strahan. There is this strange BBI myth that jpp is a good run defender but other teams run RIGHT at him a lot. He also still has trouble diagnosing screens and misdirections. This isn't conjecture or opinion just watch the tqpe.

I've been vocal on this for a while but the good news is that imo Reese is playing this perfect.

that is 100% false.

JPP is one of the best 4-3 DE run defenders in the NFL.

not sure what games you're watching if you compare him to Osi. He may not be Strahan in terms of technique and consistency, but I've seen him do things Strahan didn't have the physical ability to do.

I think JPP's "problems" are instincts, he just doesn't have the best instincts to read plays properly - and he'll crash down the line inappropriately and usage. I'd move him around more.

I'm interesting in seeing how he plays this year. though this has the potential to be the least talent DL of his career unless Owa can get on the field early.