Tried to fit as much info as possible into the title...
Nelson, however, decided to forgo the big-name schools in favor of the University of Alabama. The reason, he said, came down to cost. While the big-name schools all offered Nelson some form of aid, none of it was remotely close to what he needed to get through all four years without taking loans. Alabama, in contrast, offered Nelson a full ride to the school as well as entry into the university's prestigious honors programs.
"With people being in debt for years and years, it wasn't a burden that Ronald wanted to take on and it wasn't a burden that we wanted to deal with for a number of years after undergraduate," Nelson's father, Ronald Sr., told Business Insider. Instead, the family is eager to save resources for the even more crippling costs of medical school, which Ronald plans to attend down the road. |
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Isn't this a perfect example of what state schools and out excel at with the help of our taxes?
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A brilliant kid can't afford to go to an Ivy League school because his family is middle class. I don't think this was the intent. As someone said, it seems that now the Ivy's are for the rich or the poor, not for the largest part of our society.
Thats not the case at all, and thats why the story is disingenuous. They more probably can afford to go, but are choosing not to. They got a better deal at UAB and made a business decision. Like others said, this shouldn't be a story
Do you have or will you have children who you will have to send to college?
It's not just the ivies...almost every middle class parent has to face the same predicament when they s me their kid, or God forbid, kids to school. You get that feeling filling out the FAFSA and it never ends. You don't have to money to send your kid but you make too much to get significant assistance. Hence the loans or alternative choices.
Isn't this a perfect example of what state schools and out excel at with the help of our taxes?
I agree with this very much. As I said above, it's not a casual decision like wide right thinks it is but life was never supposed to be the same for very one either.
Second.....Ivy league tutions are affordable especially if you are middle class or lower because it is based on household income.
Third.....honors program at Alabama vs ivy league.....yeah...great move, not.
Anyway, I wanted to make sure you saw this link. You never commented on it last week! :-)
7 Worst NFL Trades Ever - ( New Window )
Anyway, I wanted to make sure you saw this link. You never commented on it last week! :-) 7 Worst NFL Trades Ever - ( New Window )
Ha, is this directed at me? Well it's a good link I think. My top picks before clicking the link were RGIII, Ricky Williams and Herschel Walker, and all are on there so I can't disagree with it much.
Second.....Ivy league tutions are affordable especially if you are middle class or lower because it is based on household income.
Third.....honors program at Alabama vs ivy league.....yeah...great move, not.
I don't really get that from this article
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Hahah, OK well fair enough. So far it appears you are correct then, though I'd certainly hold out on tooting that horn until the RGIII story is actually fully written. Looking good though.
Of course, I went to school for engineering. If I had chosen finance, I don't think I would have given CCNY a second look. What you plan on studying (and what field you want to go to upon graduation) plays a big part too.
Second.....Ivy league tutions are affordable especially if you are middle class or lower because it is based on household income.
Third.....honors program at Alabama vs ivy league.....yeah...great move, not.
You can't commit before being accepted and the tuition is not based on income. The tuition is the same across the board. As many have pointed out here, they do offer some assistance, but it is geared mostly toward those families with lower income. So, either the very wealthy or lower income families are disproportionately represented in the student bodies.
No it's not true. They give out aid u see the guise of need to other aid packages. It's just not called a sports scholarship. Makes them feel superior. My kid is looking at the Ivy League. I pray he goes to UF honors because in most cases an undergrad BA/BS is not worth the 100 to 150 K in loans. It's 65 grand on average per year. No kid who can get a decent sports scholarship is going to an IVY if he can get a full ride somewhere almost as good. Unless they are sold on the phony value of that Bachelors
obviously his parents are upper middle class
with one kid in school then the aid is offered
but when the other kid graduates then the FAFSA gets reset
and he loses alot of aid
Ivy League schools are private so there is no obligation that they should give anyone aid .. that said
these ivy league schools have huge endowments
surely one of them could have stepped up and offer him a package
At that time my parents combined income was $14K and therefor my "estimated parental contribution" was a big fat zero. So I received the full aid package which was divided up into grant, work-study jobs, and student loans (GSL and NDSL). When I graduated, I spent about a decade on Wall Street, paid off my college loans, and then quit my job and headed to Hollywood to try my hand as a writer.
Ultimately, I could've done without the Wharton education since I didn't get very far in the business world, but the Wharton degree paid for itself in less tangible ways and still does over 30 years later. No matter how broke or unaccomplished I may appear, I'm still granted a certain degree of credibility/respect when people hear I went to Wharton.
So in my case, I firmly believe it was worth it (even without using the actual education), but that was before costs spiraled completely out of control. I don't know that it's still worth the cost of the Ivy League "brand label" at the price of $65K/year.
I pretty much told my wife she needs to do whatever it takes to stay there. In my son's second year, my next child will start.. Not going into my salary, but 120K/year (and you know tuition will only go up) will not be doable.
I've told my kids they have 3 choices for college:
1. FU
2. Academic scholarship
3. Athletic scholarship
I love my kids, but I am banking on #1.
I tell folks all the tie, look to work at a University if you have kids. They pay less than corporate, but the benefits might outweigh the pay differential.
B.T.W. - A LOT of kids can't afford the Ivy League yet take out loans, fall into debt and struggle to climb out of debt.
This kid decided he didn't want to be in debtand just b/c you go to an Ivy League school doesn't mean you get paid more than the other guy. You take home a percentage of profits. The more profit you make the more money you make. Nobody says "oh, you went to Yale, we'll just give more cash regardless of profit". Quite a few Ivy Leaguers in debt realize that after Graduation.
The kid could have gone to any Ivy League School yet, like many, many students, he can't afford it. He opted not to go in debt while other students choose to go into debt.
End of story.
Would my career path had been different if I had got to a more expensive school? Probably, but the other schools were not Ivy league schools so I'm not sure if it would have been much different. My career is not related to my major, so I think it would have probably been similar.
At that time my parents combined income was $14K and therefor my "estimated parental contribution" was a big fat zero. So I received the full aid package which was divided up into grant, work-study jobs, and student loans (GSL and NDSL). When I graduated, I spent about a decade on Wall Street, paid off my college loans, and then quit my job and headed to Hollywood to try my hand as a writer.
Ultimately, I could've done without the Wharton education since I didn't get very far in the business world, but the Wharton degree paid for itself in less tangible ways and still does over 30 years later. No matter how broke or unaccomplished I may appear, I'm still granted a certain degree of credibility/respect when people hear I went to Wharton.
So in my case, I firmly believe it was worth it (even without using the actual education), but that was before costs spiraled completely out of control. I don't know that it's still worth the cost of the Ivy League "brand label" at the price of $65K/year.
That's the rub Milton. My older son has the grades to get into a few of the Ivies. Maybe even Stanford or Wharton. He's going into his Sr year. He says he wants to get into the business side of entertainment world. Sounds nice but my ex and I make too much to get any significant aid. To be honest I don't see how he will be able to pay off that 100 to 200 K once he gets his masters. That's with us footing half.. Respect is great but I can't tell you the amount of physicians I call on who have kids with Ivy League degrees who are living off of them. Two who had kids who went to Columbia and asked if I could get them into medical sales.
Your major these days dictates future earnings IMO more than your University if you do well. To me the smart kids and parents are choosing going to top tier state school's honor programs and graduating with no debt and a brighter future.
I'd love to brag about my kid who went to Stanford. We all honor great academic achievement but its not worth a lifetime of debt IMO
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and I'm convinced that the $150k it would've cost would have adversely affected the course of my career and my economic well being.
Of course, I went to school for engineering. If I had chosen finance, I don't think I would have given CCNY a second look. What you plan on studying (and what field you want to go to upon graduation) plays a big part too.
jcn - I'm assuming CCNY is the CUNY that is known for its engineering department? I'm asking, because it is way early as my son is only entering middle school, but has expressed interest in engineering.
Correct - at the time, Gourman had ranked CCNY's engineering program in the top 25 in the country. Columbia was 11th. NYC's housing market being what it was, a 2 family home in Queens was around $300k. The loans would have been around $150-200k, which was easily a down payment if not more to purchase a home.
I grew up in apartments, and my family was lower middle class (and that's probably giving us too much credit). At the time, engineering wasn't in high demand, with the Cold War having ended. Every guidance counselor I could find wanted to know why I wanted to go to school for engineering, when the math and science background would do just fine for finance, which was picking up again at the time.
I figured rather than burden myself with debt and go into a field where I might struggle to make a decent living, I'd stick with my major but go the discount route, and just change up in grad school if things weren't going my way.
Ten years later, I had friends who were still paying off their loans, I owned my own home outright, and managed staff with the Ivy League pedigree that I lacked. I had planned on going to Columbia for an exec MBA, but when the company I worked for was acquired and stopped the tuition support, I abandoned that plan.
CCNY was a great education, but it was no frills. I missed out on a lot of life experiences that I'll never get back. I never have a team to root for during March Madness or the NCAA football playoffs. When asked, I usually have to explain what CCNY is ("not 'a' CUNY, *THE* City College). I schlepped back and forth from my home in Queens 90 minutes in each direction, and there was no party scene to speak of. And networking? Close to nil. So it's not a 1:1 that you're trading off, even if the education was equivalent in every way. Still wouldn't have had it any other way, the financial freedom that not having loans afforded me gave me the opportunity to do things in my life I wouldn't have been able to otherwise.
I wish this kid the best of luck, because he'll need it. A lot of life is luck, and if he does get a bad break or two he'll be questioning that decision for a long time.
Second.....Ivy league tutions are affordable especially if you are middle class or lower because it is based on household income.
Third.....honors program at Alabama vs ivy league.....yeah...great move, not.
It all depends what you aspire to be in life. You don't need an Ivy League education to become an electrician, a teacher, work in sales or real estate etc.
Second, with all due respect to Alabama, it seems to me like there would be much more highly regarded schools offering him a free ride if he got into Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford. In fact I'd be surprised if none of the lesser Ivies offered him a full ride if he got into HY&P. My gut tells me he just really wanted to go to Alabama because it was the right fit for him (e.g. small program, big campus, southern, SEC football etc.). His considerations arent that foreign to me. I actually started in an honors program at a large state school and switched to an Ivy after 1 year. It was the right move for me.
Third, Im not in love with state schools offering full rides to out of state residents. Maybe if there was a compelling state interest (STEMs initiative), but this kid wants to go to medical school so not clear that this will benefit the taxpayers. That has nothing to do with this kid though.
Fourth, lets talk about the source. This is the second article about a kid turning down all the Ivies written by the same "reporter" since May 4, 2015. Comically, the May 4 article was about a kid who decided to go to MIT instead (oh, the horor!). And the reporter has a 3rd article from 4/20/15 about someone who got into all the Ivies. Here's another from this click bait generator lazy "journalist" circa 4/10/15. Here's a 2011. Im not even searching for these -- they're suggested related content at Business Insider. Here is one from April 2015 about an 8 Ivy admitted "seriously considering" a non-Ivy (spoiler alert: Stanford. Follow up spoiler: he chose Harvard).
This isnt news. It's content-mill gristle.
Now, in this case, I find it odd that his best option is Alabama given he got in to every Ivy. Is there no other top school that would offer more? Maybe not, but it sounds weird. Either way, he made a decision that should still allow him to go to a good medical school if he does as well in college as he did in HS. I can't fault him for taking an option that leaves him free of debt when he graduates. This is extremely rare in today's world and puts him at an advantage later in life.
Now, in this case, I find it odd that his best option is Alabama given he got in to every Ivy. Is there no other top school that would offer more? Maybe not, but it sounds weird. Either way, he made a decision that should still allow him to go to a good medical school if he does as well in college as he did in HS. I can't fault him for taking an option that leaves him free of debt when he graduates. This is extremely rare in today's world and puts him at an advantage later in life.
That's the original point. If he does go onto medical school or graduate school then going to an ivy provides absolutely no benefit over Alabama. It would be throwing money away. So even if his family had it, unless he were interested in running for office (in which case an Ivy actually would be a good apprenticeship) profligate spending is not recommended.
I recall being upset when I got into Baruch for my MBA and waitlisted for NYU. Looking back, I think having the backing of the NYU brand on my resume might have helped, given I graduated as the financial world came crashing down. More importantly, their networking opportunities and career counseling were better. But, given the atmosphere, it may not have made a significant difference in my circumstances and my debt would have been double.
What shocks me now is the sticker price even for "cheap" universities. There are so many people who still remember CUNY being free or as little as $150/semester and SUNY wasn't significantly more. Those were from another era though; another generation. Now, these are cheaper options, but still not necessarily cheap. I know, at least in our situation, even at CUNY, I can't send my kids free and clear.
Respect is great but I can't tell you the amount of physicians I call on who have kids with Ivy League degrees who are living off of them. Two who had kids who went to Columbia and asked if I could get them into medical sales.
Your major these days dictates future earnings IMO more than your University if you do well. To me the smart kids and parents are choosing going to top tier state school's honor programs and graduating with no debt and a brighter future.
I'd love to brag about my kid who went to Stanford. We all honor great academic achievement but its not worth a lifetime of debt IMO
Excellent Post. +1
I went to an Ivy... despite that, the only reason I landed a job on Wall Street and not some internship in Philadelphia after undergrad is because one of my Dad's friends landed me a temporary job on a sales-trading desk and once there, i proved myself.
And I wasnt some dumb shit - i made Dean's List junior & senior year with an International Relations & Economics degree. Once i had some tangible job experience, the Ivy resume helped i guess.... but its still about who you know moreso than where you went to school.
And yes, deej, I dont doubt this journalist is a bottom feeder... but anyone that calls out the universities for the ever increasing tuition increases is OK in my book. It's really out of hand. People hate Wall Street and the 1%... but colleges put people in debt for life while paying their athletic coaches $7 million a year. It's ridiculous.
And I wasnt some dumb shit - i made Dean's List junior & senior year with an International Relations & Economics degree. Once i had some tangible job experience, the Ivy resume helped i guess.... but its still about who you know moreso than where you went to school.
And yes, deej, I dont doubt this journalist is a bottom feeder... but anyone that calls out the universities for the ever increasing tuition increases is OK in my book. It's really out of hand. People hate Wall Street and the 1%... but colleges put people in debt for life while paying their athletic coaches $7 million a year. It's ridiculous.
Isn't that part of the allure of the Ivies and other top colleges? Especially with grad programs (e.g. MBA, JD), aren't these universities supposed to have huge networks that help you get that first job so that you have the opportunity to prove yourself?
It's not a good system. College cost is a borderline crisis.
I pretty much told my wife she needs to do whatever it takes to stay there. In my son's second year, my next child will start.. Not going into my salary, but 120K/year (and you know tuition will only go up) will not be doable.
I've told my kids they have 3 choices for college:
1. FU
2. Academic scholarship
3. Athletic scholarship
I love my kids, but I am banking on #1.
I tell folks all the tie, look to work at a University if you have kids. They pay less than corporate, but the benefits might outweigh the pay differential.
Holy shitballs, Fairfield is $60k a year now??!?!? I'm 11 years removed, but it was $38k my senior year IIRC. That's insane. I mean, I loved the school and its a gorgeous campus, but... wow.
Any future kids of mine better like swinging a hammer, playing with pipes or running wires!
On a different note, a post-graduate degree from an ivy, imo, definitely is worthwhile and opens doors...almost no matter the cost.
No, what I was describing was tuition going up but being offset by increased "grants". Effectively it is phony money. It is like if a car dealer raised to price from $50k to $60k, but started giving everyone $10k "cash back". Net it is still $50k. Except in the case of colleges, it isnt the full $10k (i.e. costs are still going up net), and (2) it's more like an average of $10k, so some get $18k and some get $0k.
Moreover, Im not sure taxpayers get hosed on student loan defaults because they are non-dischargable debts. I'd guess that student loans are a net money maker for the fisc, but that's just a guess.
I turned down several Ivies for law school to go to an equally good/better school. Dont think it has hurt me. Except Cornell offered to comp most of my tuition, and I have some regret about not taking that deal.
It was bad when I went to Penn. It's only gotten worse since then. Huge debt burden. Mine sucked because the below-prime fixed rate I got in 1981-85 was 10% and stayed there. Oh, and they eliminated the student loan interest deduction on taxes while I was in the middle of college. And it never got renewed. Did I mention it was 10% percent?
It sucks now just because kids are expecting to incur a monster amount of debt. I graduated college and law school with $60k. Today it's closer to $150k.
Go Quakers.
Best deal ever. I lucked out because two kids went pretty gratis and the third I convinced to go to a nice state school.
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it's scary to think just how much higher education will cost by the time my own toddler and baby are college aged kids. We've started decent 529 plans for both, but they better get a ton of scholarships since I doubt that we will meet the income requirements for much assistance. Of course the ideal scenario for both my kids will be if they ended up in either my alma mater or one of the other service academies (which my wife continues to push against)...one can hope.
Best deal ever. I lucked out because two kids went pretty gratis and the third I convinced to go to a nice state school.
Best deal ever as long as you (more the mom) can stomach the kiddos putting in 5+ years in the military, especially during times of conflict. My mom definitely didn't bargain for both her sons being deployed at the same time (one to Afghanistan and the other to Iraq...then switching location a few years later). I think that's my wife's biggest worries.
With that being said, my little girl started saying recently that she wants to go to my alma mater and become a Marine helicopter pilot. My wife isn't too thrilled about that...;)
I am not getting them, I am getting a more affordable car instead. Story at 11.