NFT: Mets Game 3

Milwaukee
OF-Ryan Braun
OF-Carlos Gomez
OF-Gerardo Parra
SS-Jean Segura
RP-Jeremy Jeffress
RP-Michael Blazek
RP-Will Smith
SP-Tyler Thornberg
RP-Francisco Rodriguez

Colorado
SS-Troy Tulowitski
OF-Charlie Blackman
OF-Corey Dickerson
RP-John Axford
RP-Adam Ottavino

Cincinnati
SS-Zack Cozart
OF-Marlon Byrd
RP-Aroldis Chapman
RP-Tony Cingrani

Arizona
OF-David Peralta
OF-Ender Inciarte

Dodgers
IF-Alex Guerruo
IF-Justin Turner
OF-Scott Van Slyke

Oakland
SP-Scott Kazmir
IF-Ben Zobrist
OF-Josh Reddick
RP-Tyler Clippard

Texas
OF-Shin Soo-Choo (with Texas eating cash)
RP-Shawn Tolleson
OF-Leonys MartIN

Cleveland
2B-Jason Kipnis
OF-Michael Brantley
RP-Nick Hardigone

Tornoto
SS-Jose Reyes
RP-Roberto Osuna
OF-Jose Bautista

Baltimore
UT-Travis Snider

Dodgers are never out of it

Mets are 1-11 in the past 12 games when an underdog. Doesn't bode well for today

just hoping for a split for this series.

The Nats are red hot, however.

will be lucky to survive. Line drives getting smoked left and right.

...

No reason to not be tagging there and Cuddyer gets robbed. Need Murphy to pick it up.

Mental mistakes, fielding errors, lack of clutch hitting, it really is getting to be ugly

In comment 12295211 NewBlue said:

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Mental mistakes, fielding errors, lack of clutch hitting, it really is getting to be ugly

sign of poor coaching?

Knowing that a 1 or 2 run deficit means it's over.
Watching Harvey pitch and sensing he can't give up a run...geez
Colon is lucky he has only allowed 2 runs tonight but frankly it's over

Not quite a deadly weapon anymore. And it's very noticeable.

Colon is going to have games like this where he just gets hit hard. I could tell from the first 2 batters even though he ended up not letting either one score. And the offense is still stuck in the same quicksand it's been in for the past few years where they get opportunities, they blow them with mistakes or bad ABs, and you just know the story is going to end. If the offense could even get Colon 1 or 2 runs you'd at least feel like there's a chance.

Maybe that should be Gee's role? On days when Colon doesn't have it, pull him after the first inning and put in Gee.

where colon doesn't even give us a chance to win. At his age, not sure he'll gain strength as the season goes on. I hope niese/colon don't keep matz out of the rotation too much longer.

Teams have absolutely no trouble hitting HRs at CitiField. Time to bring the fences in...again?

at 4.55 for the season now.

There is still a cloud over this team...it seems like Harvey is the only thing to watch, with due respect to deGrom.....just don't want to go and pay money to watch these clowns....Does anyone really think that when Wright and TDA come back anything changes

In comment 12295270 Metnut said:

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at 4.55 for the season now.

He's getting pounded every time out there now

good pitches go by only to swing at garbage. Every Fucking Game. They are always behind in the count and they are the least aggressive team I have ever seen.

Maybe this long shitty streak will finally get rid of terry but probably not. They will just give him the excuse of injuries, as usual.

Last night or tonight?
We can turn the channel but for me I would be extremely pissed

When he was 6-0

This team has the offense to be contending in September

In comment 12295329 spike said:

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This team has the offense to be contending in September

Doubt? Lol, not even close. I'm sure they won't even be in second place at the Allstar break.

10pm. Hopefully his last or second to last start in the minors. Las Vegas has been consistently more enjoyable to watch than the Mets. If only we still had Ceciliani, Hererra, Cambell, and Monell still in the lineup!

They should just start montero and matz for those last two rotation spots

We will get an exciting young promising pitcher every night before the end of the year, and we still can't win because we don't hit, and frankly if you look at the bats in Vegas and Bingo, I don't know who will solve this issue.

What a waste to have a minor league club there.

Where is our next bat coming from?
Who will replace these 2 old men with zero power playing our outfield corners?

Anyone on the horizon?????

In comment 12295364 NewBlue said:

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Where is our next bat coming from? Who will replace these 2 old men with zero power playing our outfield corners? Anyone on the horizon?????

Gotta go to Binghamton. Conforto is the savior

That's 2 years from now right?

teams like the Cubs and the Cards. The Mets look almost overmatched.

In comment 12295383 Rflairr said:

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teams like the Cubs and the Cards. The Mets look almost overmatched.

When they don't get the pitching the Mets aren't very good. They live and die with their starting pitching, if they get a good outing they are in almost every game if they don't they are hard pressed to win the game.

I turned it off when Murphy lunged at a pitch with the bases loaded.. very glad I did.

We will have a stretch where we beat the Dodgers or Cards 5 out of 6, and than lose to the D-Backs 4 in a row......there is something missing there, coach? Talent? Karma? Ownership?

I don't know but whatever it is I have seen this movie far to often.

A team with character chips away, goes down, but with a fight,
it's 9 freakin 0 in the eighth inning...it's getting laughable again

If Colon pitched a no hitter tonight, he still would not be winning.......it is not just some crap outings by Colon & Niese..........a team that can't hit is very hard to watch

I vaguely remember that lineup being beyond terrible so I went and checked one box score from then..this was actually our lineup..

Pagain
Castillo
Wright
Francoeur
Tatis
Murphy
Santos
A. Hernandez (Short stop that I dont remember?)
Pelfrey

and I think David Wright got hurt shortly after this game.

all the way up to first. Unreal.

In comment 12295451 Tanker20 said:

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I vaguely remember that lineup being beyond terrible so I went and checked one box score from then..this was actually our lineup.. Pagain Castillo Wright Francoeur Tatis Murphy Santos A. Hernandez (Short stop that I dont remember?) Pelfrey and I think David Wright got hurt shortly after this game.

Anderson Hernandez IF
not always a SS - ( New Window )

23rd in runs scored (and that's with 15 the other day, without which they would be 29th)
28th in OPS
26th in OBP
22nd in HRs
26th in BA

In comment 12295623 Giants2012 said:

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23rd in runs scored (and that's with 15 the other day, without which they would be 29th) 28th in OPS 26th in OBP 22nd in HRs 26th in BA

So how long of a leash does hitting coach Kevin Long have?

In comment 12295624 spike said:

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In comment 12295623 Giants2012 said: Quote: 23rd in runs scored (and that's with 15 the other day, without which they would be 29th) 28th in OPS 26th in OBP 22nd in HRs 26th in BA So how long of a leash does hitting coach Kevin Long have?

The stats don't tell the whole story but they say a lot. I certainly wouldn't blame the hitting coach as SA basically added Cuddyer to an otherwise inept offense from last season. Some just bought into hype and Spring Training scrimmages.

I believe they will be better when 2 of their better hitters come back.if you don't believe in them go fuck yourselves you cunts and go root for the Yankees

In comment 12295623 Giants2012 said:

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23rd in runs scored (and that's with 15 the other day, without which they would be 29th) 28th in OPS 26th in OBP 22nd in HRs 26th in BA

I hope Z meant bottom five O, not top five, when he touted the great offense this spring.

When it's constructive. You learn from it. The problem I have with what passes as criticism by some here is "I told you so" "I am right, you are wrong" you know the generic crap you get on Mets.com. I think we should have multiple threads, certainly there is enough bandwidth to support 2 gameday threads. I bet that if we had separate threads everyone would be happy. The cheerleaders can interact with other cheerleaders and the others can interact with themselves. Fair enough?

and were told they were wrong, clueless, morons, not Mets fans, trolls, etc that was constructive and now you don't want to hear they were correct?

In comment 12295924 Headhunter said:

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When it's constructive. You learn from it.

Sounds fair

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if you don't believe in them go fuck yourselves you cunts and go root for the Yankees

Sounds like you are a hypocrite. You seriously have mental issues.

Frat boy? If I did and you have an issue with me stay off my threads and I'll stay off of yours. But you won't be able to do that and you know it

where I would give a shit what you say. I just wanted to point out to everyone...again...how full of shit you are. You literally hand over your shittiness on a silver platter.

Frat boy, good one. Original too.

you are not going to show up? I promise not to show up on threads with you Giants2012 NewBlue. Deal?

In comment 12295969 Headhunter said:

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you are not going to show up? I promise not to show up on threads with you Giants2012 NewBlue. Deal?

I'll show up where ever I want. Lol, who you do you think you are. I swear, you claim to be an elder adult yet you have the mental maturity of an 8 year old girl.

Why don't you just take your ball and go home.

I'll continue to do whatever I want...

And you can continue to tell people to fuck off, call them cunts, wish they get shot in the face, tell them to die...whatever your normal response is for people having a different opinion than yours. Because that's what grownups do, right? Sound good?

Eh, don't really care anyway.

why? You add nothing, you can have a daily circle jerk with the likes of NewBlue and Giants2012. why do you need to be on threads I'm on, I don't need or want to be on threads with you and them? What is the problem?

Your childish tantrums and this hypocritical bs is all you self inflicting yourself. You go nuts when others have a different opinion and the double down when you're wrong.

In comment 12295977 Headhunter said:

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why? You add nothing, you can have a daily circle jerk with the likes of NewBlue and Giants2012. why do you need to be on threads I'm on, I don't need or want to be on threads with you and them? What is the problem?

Because they are mets threads and you don't control things. If I want to take part in a mets thread and have a different opinion than someone else, than that is my right. I should have to deal with some grown man's childish outburst because I feel differently. I think it's you that needs the timeout because, clearly, you add nothing but playground bullying to these threads. But go on.

I'm looking to avoid. There are clear divisions amongst core posters here. Why can't we have separate groups? This way we can avoid all the name calling and personalization? There are optimists and there are "realists" and pessimists here, why do we have to be on the same threads? There is certainly enough room for multiple threads

The name calling is normally started and perpetuated by you and now you want to start separate met threads to eliminate the name calling. That's rich. How about you just grow up and move on? The was literally zero reason for your little outburst this morning. I know you enjoy calling people cunts,but the sooner you realize that you are the problem, the better off we will be.

I guess I'll stop posting on Met threads

In comment 12296014 PhiPsi125 said:

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The name calling is normally started and perpetuated by you and now you want to start separate met threads to eliminate the name calling. That's rich. How about you just grow up and move on? The was literally zero reason for your little outburst this morning. I know you enjoy calling people cunts,but the sooner you realize that you are the problem, the better off we will be.

Textbook narcissism

mentality really hurts these threads. But, when the Mets are winning you see the same crap. IMO, it might be better off to just let people vent after getting blown out at home back to back nights.

If Matz rolls again tonight, and either Niese or Colon get rocked again next time, I'd think long and hard about getting him into the rotation. The organization's best pitchers should be pitching for the Mets, period.

In comment 12296059 Metnut said:

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mentality really hurts these threads. But, when the Mets are winning you see the same crap. IMO, it might be better off to just let people vent after getting blown out at home back to back nights. If Matz rolls again tonight, and either Niese or Colon get rocked again next time, I'd think long and hard about getting him into the rotation. The organization's best pitchers should be pitching for the Mets, period.

Yeah it gets hard to handle and you're right that it's almost as annoying when they're winning as losing (obviously those times are better overall though since winning is more fun). I think everyone's just overly amped up on all sides of the argument because the team has been comatose for so long and there's so much hope in the talent. It's almost like getting a friend a back after they'd moved away years earlier and everyone's having their own emotional reactions, mixed with abnormal expectations - some overly excited thinking everything is perfect, some overly angry at the recent past. The emotion seems to be getting in the way of the reality that baseball is just a long season, no team is perfect (plenty of 100 win teams have not won WS), and this team is pacing to end up exactly where we thought it would - taking a step a forward. Not the leap some hoped for, but progress. Who knows? Maybe there will be more of a leap as the team gets healthy over the season.

are winning or losing. Not from a large contingent, but it still happens. Nobody really cares when it happens when the Mets are winning because...well...they are winning. As you said, when they lose it's mostly just people venting, which is fine. Some of it is validated and some is not, but there is no reason to charge back at those fans venting with personal attacks.

To me, what really ruins these threads are the person (people) who feel the need to make obscene, juvenile, personal attacks because they have a different opinion, or a different outlook. Especially when that person makes the comment 8 hours after the thread is dead. That's just someone looking for a fight. I made 5 comments during the game...none of which I thought were bad.

Personally, I like that we have differing views on these discussions. It provokes thoughtful conversation. Calling someone a c*nt because they are frustrated about the team isn't thought provoking at all. Plus, this place would be pretty boring if everyone agreed with each other all the time, lol. Moving on.

about Niese is most people saw this coming. The FIP said Jon Niese was pitching very poorly, the ERA said otherwise. Go with the FIP.

about the Mets. It's ridiculous to fight over this stuff, it's all for fun. We're fans, we're passionate, but nobody should take this stuff all that seriously.

Matz needs to be in NY, Syndergaard needs to stay. What we're missing is that big bat, and I can't think of where to get it. We have a lot of role players.

What's frustrating right now - and baffling - is that we're scoring at the same level as the last 3 years despite not having any black holes in our lineup. We've had terrible players (sub .200 hitters) in the lineup for months at a time. The likes of i.davis, tejada, c.young, e.young, d'arnaud (early 2014), quintinilla, duda (before he got good), j.thole, j.bay.

Both Granderson and especially Cuddyer are underperforming but they're not performing nearly as badly as those players did for quite some time. Looking back, our bench players actually performed decently for a number of years, players like justin turner, scott hairston, andrew brown, neiwenhuis, satin, bobby abreu all were decent off the bench options. Right now, our bench is just not doing a damn thing. Kirk this year was a black hole, mayberry has been non-existent, monnell and recker have offered not much, tejada has been ok.

So maybe the answer is trading the gee's and niese's or colon's for serviceable back-ups, role players, bullpen pieces. I really would like someone like Gerardo Parra from the Brewers, or David DeJesus from Tampa Bay.

The Mets have been embarrassed at home, the Giants lose Beatty for about half a season and the Knicks pick 4th. I tell myself that things have to get better, then I ask myself why.

mid-level rotation prospects to keep the depth we had. Bowman has really underperformed this year. We have Montero as depth right now when he gets healthy. But going into next year, we're going to be Harvey, DeGrom, Syndergaard, Matz, and Montero, with Wheeler coming back mid-season. Gee and Niese, not sure where they will be, but they should be traded. In the minors, getting verrett back might help. Maybe this Lugo kid and Fulmer can provide some rotation depth.

a huge negative? I tend to think so.

We don't have a logical representation of what we may be getting once the pitchers/hitters get to the majors. More so with the hitters.

Any chance of moving out of Vegas in the near future?

In comment 12296111 PhiPsi125 said:

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a huge negative? I tend to think so. We don't have a logical representation of what we may be getting once the pitchers/hitters get to the majors. More so with the hitters. Any chance of moving out of Vegas in the near future?

I hate the fact they are in vegas. Hard to quantify exactly how much it hurts but I think it does impact your ability to judge how ready a guy is (professional scouts or not). There is more guesswork involved when a regular line drive suddenly is a 420 foot homer. They are signed with Vegas through 2016. I wish the Wilpons would just buy an existing team and move them into a solid market but I find it hard to believe they will. Being in the PCL at all is a joke but in LV? Silly.

the confusing thing to me about this lineup for the entire Collins era has been that no matter the combinations, nothing seems to work even a little bit. Marlon Byrd plays like an all star? No effect on the Ws/Ls. Duda turns into everything anyone hoped for at 1B? Basically .500 from that point on last year.

Randolph had good teams so it's hard to compare, but if you go back to the Bobby V. era I remember many times when the lineup had some real crappy players in key spots, and every one of those teams had terrible outfielders. Jay Payton, Shinjo, Agbayani, Timo, etc. Some of those teams also sucked offensively but they also always won 82+ games.

In comment 12296148 Eric on Li said:

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the confusing thing to me about this lineup for the entire Collins era has been that no matter the combinations, nothing seems to work even a little bit. Marlon Byrd plays like an all star? No effect on the Ws/Ls. Duda turns into everything anyone hoped for at 1B? Basically .500 from that point on last year. Randolph had good teams so it's hard to compare, but if you go back to the Bobby V. era I remember many times when the lineup had some real crappy players in key spots, and every one of those teams had terrible outfielders. Jay Payton, Shinjo, Agbayani, Timo, etc. Some of those teams also sucked offensively but they also always won 82+ games.

I know that I am in the minority on this, but I truly believe that this is due to poor coaching. Not that Collins is the worst thing to happen to baseball, but his (or maybe the FO) mentality is soft and non-aggressive...and I think that has a trickle down effect to all facets of the game.

Sure, an average manager won't have much impact on wins/losses. But conversely, a great manager can vault a team to success while a bad manager can suck the life out of a team. The cardinals are a great recent example. They are aggressive. They do the little things. They create their own luck and success. In fact, a lot of the teams that have beaten us have been very aggressive.

The Mets are the opposite of this and it's no surprise. Like I said, maybe it's the FO mentality, but I believe that there needs to be a severe shift in coaching and philosophy. If this IS a FO philosophy...then I'm fearful for the future. It's Baseball 101. Moneyball never worked...at least not in the long run.

need to be competing for one spot from now on.

In comment 12296148 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

the confusing thing to me about this lineup for the entire Collins era has been that no matter the combinations, nothing seems to work even a little bit. Marlon Byrd plays like an all star? No effect on the Ws/Ls. Duda turns into everything anyone hoped for at 1B? Basically .500 from that point on last year. Randolph had good teams so it's hard to compare, but if you go back to the Bobby V. era I remember many times when the lineup had some real crappy players in key spots, and every one of those teams had terrible outfielders. Jay Payton, Shinjo, Agbayani, Timo, etc. Some of those teams also sucked offensively but they also always won 82+ games.

All the OFs you mentioned were significantly more productive than Eric Young. I don't care who the manager is, you're not going to score runs with a lineup featuring Eric Young, Chris Young, Tejada, first half TDA, best hitter injured, etc.

In comment 12296148 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

the confusing thing to me about this lineup for the entire Collins era has been that no matter the combinations, nothing seems to work even a little bit. Marlon Byrd plays like an all star? No effect on the Ws/Ls. Duda turns into everything anyone hoped for at 1B? Basically .500 from that point on last year. Randolph had good teams so it's hard to compare, but if you go back to the Bobby V. era I remember many times when the lineup had some real crappy players in key spots, and every one of those teams had terrible outfielders. Jay Payton, Shinjo, Agbayani, Timo, etc. Some of those teams also sucked offensively but they also always won 82+ games.

think about the OF bobby V went to the WS with.. it's crazy how bad it is lol

In comment 12295919 Shecky said:

Quote:

In comment 12295623 Giants2012 said: Quote: 23rd in runs scored (and that's with 15 the other day, without which they would be 29th) 28th in OPS 26th in OBP 22nd in HRs 26th in BA I hope Z meant bottom five O, not top five, when he touted the great offense this spring.

Speaking of "I told you so's" I never said top 5 in the NL without two of our top hitters, but I always love your snark.

In comment 12296202 feelflows said:

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think about the OF bobby V went to the WS with.. it's crazy how bad it is lol

And still: the OF with the worst OPS in 2000 - Derek Bell - had a higher OPS than anybody in this year's OF.

In comment 12296208 ZGiants98 said:

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In comment 12295919 Shecky said: Quote: In comment 12295623 Giants2012 said: Quote: 23rd in runs scored (and that's with 15 the other day, without which they would be 29th) 28th in OPS 26th in OBP 22nd in HRs 26th in BA I hope Z meant bottom five O, not top five, when he touted the great offense this spring. Speaking of "I told you so's" I never said top 5 in the NL without two of our top hitters, but I always love your snark.

Lol, fair point.

that combines both leagues when pointing out offensive production is an absolute moron. Like having a full extra hitter in your lineup does nothing for an offense over the course of a season??? LOL.

But we should expect nothing less from Class of 2012 unfortunately.

Feel free to post the NL numbers. They're just as pretty. Tell us how "AWESOME" they are. Share that biased acumen lol

Because I have no idea that our offense has been struggling. Thanks for cluing me in.

In comment 12295919 Shecky said:

Quote:

In comment 12295623 Giants2012 said: Quote: I hope Z meant bottom five O, not top five, when he touted the great offense this spring.

Few take Spring training scrimmages seriously. Makes ya wonder

Its painful. Back to ignoring you!

Was Nelson Cruz really not an option for NL teams? The dude is fucking crushing it. If the Mets had signed him instead of Cuddyer things could look a whole lot different right now.

Granderson
Murphy
Wright
Cruz
Duda
d'Arnaud
Flores
Lagares
Pitcher

That's a pretty legit lineup. I'd have a hard time finding many better than that. Especially in the NL.

but his bat makes more sense than losing a #1 for an old Cuddyer.

Everything SA does is a broken bridge to a prospect he hopes will develop.

be nice to have Cruz's bat, but having an NL team give a multiyear deal to a guy who can't play the field is something that is just too likely to bite us in the ass. It's bad enough with Cuddyer out there, and Cruz is a good bit worse than that.

I'll give the front office a pass on Cruz. I wanted Melky Cabrera instead of Cuddyer, but it looks like he's an even bigger bust than Cuddyer. This stuff isn't easy.

The guy is terrible defensively but it's not like Cuddyer isn't a minus defensive player.

Cruz has actually played the field more often than he's DH'd this year and he's already a 2 WAR player (Cuddyer is barely above 0 at 0.3)

And Cruz isn't playing in a small park, either. Look at his offensive numbers right now. They're ridiculous.

In comment 12296295 arcarsenal said:

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Was Nelson Cruz really not an option for NL teams? The dude is fucking crushing it. If the Mets had signed him instead of Cuddyer things could look a whole lot different right now. Granderson Murphy Wright Cruz Duda d'Arnaud Flores Lagares Pitcher That's a pretty legit lineup. I'd have a hard time finding many better than that. Especially in the NL.

let it go! I'm with you, and have been since winter 2013 on this one, but it's not worth thinking about..

what the brass needs to figure out is how to bring younger offensive players into the fold who aren't oft-injured.

In comment 12296313 arcarsenal said:

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The guy is terrible defensively but it's not like Cuddyer isn't a minus defensive player. Cruz has actually played the field more often than he's DH'd this year and he's already a 2 WAR player (Cuddyer is barely above 0 at 0.3) And Cruz isn't playing in a small park, either. Look at his offensive numbers right now. They're ridiculous.

The FO's MO has been to take pragmatic risks that are mitigated by intangible factors and more reasonable contracts. Often times that's been at the expense of higher upside boom/bust type players. Cuddyer and Granderson are safer "professionals" compared boom/bust bigger contracts like Ellsbury/Ramirez/Cruz/Choo. They can't outspend any mistakes they make so they are being overly cautious trying to not make any. I believe for this team to take the next step they will need to make their "Beltran/Piazza" move and put their chips in on a true all star level guy, whether it's a FA this offseason like Upton or a trade for Gomez, they need 1 every day 5 WAR impact player, either in the OF or middle IF.

Michael Bourn could be an everday OF for the Mets... phew.

.

It's not even close

Reyes
Lo Duca
Beltran
Delgado
Wright
Floyd
Green
Valentin

in the favor of 2015. That lineup was excellent though. I still think the 99 lineup was even better overall when factoring in defense, but that may just be nostalgia.

was yet another OF FA bust

In comment 12296426 Eric on Li said:

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in the favor of 2015. That lineup was excellent though.

Respectfully, it's not a huge mismatch yet b/c they're still throwing Niese and Colon out there on the heels of Gee.

It will be mismatch while the offense, yikes. It's not even close.

It was also a bit easier to get a hold of a 30 HR bat 10 years ago. Hell, Ryan Howard hit twice that in 2006. Power bats are getting harder and harder to find.

they were good contact hitters regardless of home runs.

Cruz may not be as great a hitter but he would be our Delgado now. Duda IMO, is kinda like Floyd was. A young Wright, Beltran hits, Lo Duca put the ball in play and Reyes flies.

Even defensively it's not close.

The glaring difference is not having anything close to what prime Jose Reyes gave us out of the leadoff spot.