NFT: Knicks Thread 5/21: Draft prospects

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was how reliant he become on his jumper. That really worried me. Now to be fair i had the same issue with Harden coming out and didnt like him because of it. Obviously i was dead wrong on that one, ha.

there are full games of Mudiay in the thread i posted above...

Could be better then Okafor & KAT. Could be the best player in this entire draft. He has great athleticism & seems to have a very good understanding of basketball. Which most of the time the guys with athleticism can't play basketball. Mudiay can from what I've seen. If we don't get KAT then Mudiay is the player I want most.

Mudiay. I like everything I have seen and read.

I have not heard a LOT about him, but what's out there is positive. With our luck he goes at 3.

which i guess is a good thing. I am perfectly happy getting Mudiay at 4 and if Monroe is as close to a lock as is rumored (big if i know) then getting a guard in the draft does fit pretty well. There are also more bigs in this FA class then guards so that will help as well. Obviously you dont draft based on who are Free agents that year, but its just another benefit of going guard.

In comment 12296105 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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I have not heard a LOT about him, but what's out there is positive. With our luck he goes at 3.

What I like most is he clearly has the physical tools to be very good and then you read about his bball intelligence and work ethic and I think he's be a great pickup for the Knicks. Maybe he ends up a bust but I'm not seeing any major red flags.

Mudiay really have to hit the ground running for him to be a good pick? I expect Calderon to play a bit better with better talent around him.

In comment 12296105 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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I have not heard a LOT about him, but what's out there is positive. With our luck he goes at 3.

TTH in the other thread i started there are full games of him if you want to watch him rather than just highlights...

Hearing that they may make it available for trade concerns me.

I wanted KAT, but that's out the window. Now I kinda want Mudiay because he seems to have the highest upside, but I have a small feeling that Russell might fit the profile of a kid that goes undervalued in the draft, but ends up having the best career of the guys in front of him.

I wouldn't compare Russell to Conley. NBA draft net has his comparison set at a combination of Ginobili and Brandon Roy, which measures up if you look at the tape.

@Italianju I honestly see alot of Harden in him. He doesn't have the same penchant of getting to the line as Harden, but thats something Harden got over time. Russell has better pure PG skills than harden IMO.

@ny16 haha my apologies on the threads coinciding. I want to see those games when I get a chance today though.

In comment 12296110 DanMetroMan said:

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Mudiay really have to hit the ground running for him to be a good pick? I expect Calderon to play a bit better with better talent around him.

Out of all the prospects i think Mudiay can hit the ground running, i also think him and Calderon or him and Galloway can play together in the backcourt...

In comment 12296121 giantsfan44ab said:

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@ny16 haha my apologies on the threads coinciding. I want to see those games when I get a chance today though.

No worries i think we posted at the exact same time...

people dont expect him to be a star from day 1. These guys all are going to take time. I wouldnt even be shocked if Calderon starts (wouldnt be my choice, but it wouldnt shock me).

In comment 12296126 Italianju said:

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people dont expect him to be a star from day 1. These guys all are going to take time. I wouldnt even be shocked if Calderon starts (wouldnt be my choice, but it wouldnt shock me).

From watching Mudiay in a couple of these games i think he can play with Calderon if that is what it comes to...he can guard 2's and Calderon can play off the ball and spread the court..

In comment 12296126 Italianju said:

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people dont expect him to be a star from day 1. These guys all are going to take time. I wouldnt even be shocked if Calderon starts (wouldnt be my choice, but it wouldnt shock me).

I was just thinking of that this morning. It's kind of excruciating to see the talent that came through the Knicks in the past decade that needed time and play to develop now winning playoff games for other teams.

Trevor Ariza, basically. He's had a real nice NBA career.

In comment 12296147 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 12296126 Italianju said: Quote: people dont expect him to be a star from day 1. These guys all are going to take time. I wouldnt even be shocked if Calderon starts (wouldnt be my choice, but it wouldnt shock me). I was just thinking of that this morning. It's kind of excruciating to see the talent that came through the Knicks in the past decade that needed time and play to develop now winning playoff games for other teams. Trevor Ariza, basically. He's had a real nice NBA career.

Can thank Larry Brown for that one

be clear I didn't mean Mudiay would stink as a rookie, I just don't think he needs to come in and be a beast as a rookie for him to be a good pick. I think the goal this year should be playoffs.

In comment 12296157 DanMetroMan said:

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be clear I didn't mean Mudiay would stink as a rookie, I just don't think he needs to come in and be a beast as a rookie for him to be a good pick. I think the goal this year should be playoffs.

Has to be, no pick next year have to make the playoffs...

either Mudiay or Russell will be there - not both. Take which ever one is there.

isnt Ariza really the only significant one? And since we traded him he has been on ORL, LA, HOU, NO, WAS, and back to HOU. I like Ariza and trading him for Francis was stupid, but im also not going to kill the knicks for it.

In comment 12296172 Italianju said:

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isnt Ariza really the only significant one? And since we traded him he has been on ORL, LA, HOU, NO, WAS, and back to HOU. I like Ariza and trading him for Francis was stupid, but im also not going to kill the knicks for it.

I'm NOT killing the team at all. But it's a little bittersweet when you think about how the Knicks lack talent.

Mudiay or Okafor will be there, I am happy taking any one of them

i just think if you look at a decade of players for any team there will be an Ariza for almost each team. But i get your point, it would be nice if we had Ariza, ha.

every time an ex Knick has a good game every single person in the media kills the Knicks for not keeping them?

Last night all anyone talked about was how the Knicks took another Loss because JR had a good game...really where were you during his suspension or the past couple of games where he has not shot well..give me a break...

all you want about trading away picks, but if theres one positive, we have done pretty well in scouting and developing players in recent years.

Shumpert and THJR have certainly surpassed pre-draft expectations. Prigioni, Lin and Galloway were solid undrafted signings. Landry Fields was more than serviceable in his tenure here given where he was taken. Fans gave the Knicks a lot of crap for the Gallinari pick but he was able to play up to his hype well enough to be appealing to Denver for Melo. Same goes for Wilson Chandler.

Not many people remember but Kostas Papanikalou was a late 2nd round pick of ours in 2012 and he has shown some flashes in Houston.

Since 2011 the knicks have had a good track record. I am confident that they will seek the right player.

quietly had a big second half this year. I actually think he'd be a great fit in the triangle.

he's probably a West all star someday.

24 games second half

18.6 4.8 boards on 44% from the field, 40% from 3. Dropped 47 and 9 on the Mavs

has a high ceiling but a pretty high floor as well due to his athleticism. At the very least he should be able to get to the basket and D up. I'm fully on board with him as the pick.

Bresnahan of the LA Times says Kupchak plans on going with Towns or Okafor at 2, not a guard. I think Russell is going to be a Knick.

Towns, Okafor, Mudiay (Sixers love upside), and then Russell is what I expect

randle i def expect LA to take Okafor. I think its up in the air for PHI, i can easily see them taking either guard. Most of the "expert" mocks seem to have them taking Russell.

Lets say even if he is a 16 and 9 guy his first year off the bat, what do you think he brings to a team that wishes to contend? Whats so drastically different about him that we have not seen with Al jefferson, Brook Lopez, and Enes Kanter?

Okafor is 8th seed material. The fact is every contending team has a dominant big man DEFENSIVE presence. If we get Okafor, who is going to be that presence? Okafor got DESTROYED by Frank Kaminsky in the championship game. He can't defend his own position, let alone anchor a defense.

What if I told you we could get a 17 and 10 guy entering his prime with an elite post up game, fantastic big man passing skills, can defend his position, AND he can hit free throws in free agency?

His name is Greg Monroe.

In comment 12296277 DanMetroMan said:

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Bresnahan of the LA Times says Kupchak plans on going with Towns or Okafor at 2, not a guard. I think Russell is going to be a Knick. Towns, Okafor, Mudiay (Sixers love upside), and then Russell is what I expect

It will be interesting who Mudiay works out for first, i wnder if he is in with the Knicks and they love him if they tell him to shut it down and not work out for any other team...

Of Course it may not matter because Hinkie scouted him in China personally...

But something interesting the Sixers were apparently in love with Mudiay early in the season when he was playing and as the season went on according to reports it turned and they fell in love with Russell, so who knows...

I actually think Russell is the better fit for the Sixers and it is not because i want Mudiay

He is going to be the guy in Denver this year and I think he will play himself into huge money. The thing is you can put Gallo at the 4 and not fall off too much defensively.

I see him as being Washington's consolation prize when they realize they cannot get KD.

way too extreme. Does he have to play both PF and C? Cant you put a defensive guy next to him (gasol next to Randolph). Al Jefferson is not a bad NBA player, not sure why the idea that he is Al Jefferson means he is a bum. Jefferson hasnt exactly been on the best of teams which hurts the perception of him. A guy who steps on the court and goes 16 and 9 like you say is a pretty good player. Im fine not getting him, but id be pretty happy to get him.

In comment 12296294 giantsfan44ab said:

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He is going to be the guy in Denver this year and I think he will play himself into huge money. The thing is you can put Gallo at the 4 and not fall off too much defensively. I see him as being Washington's consolation prize when they realize they cannot get KD.

Oh I don't expect his return. I just meant hypothetically he'd probably do quite well in the triangle.

descent money. He just cant stay on the court. Too hard to pay 10+ mill to a guy you are hoping plays around 60 games.

In comment 12296284 giantsfan44ab said:

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Lets say even if he is a 16 and 9 guy his first year off the bat, what do you think he brings to a team that wishes to contend? Whats so drastically different about him that we have not seen with Al jefferson, Brook Lopez, and Enes Kanter? Okafor is 8th seed material. The fact is every contending team has a dominant big man DEFENSIVE presence. If we get Okafor, who is going to be that presence? Okafor got DESTROYED by Frank Kaminsky in the championship game. He can't defend his own position, let alone anchor a defense. What if I told you we could get a 17 and 10 guy entering his prime with an elite post up game, fantastic big man passing skills, can defend his position, AND he can hit free throws in free agency? His name is Greg Monroe.

I think the plan is check in with Aldridge and Gasol and see if they have a chance, if they do obviously they will have them in for visit or go to them and give them their pitch....

If not i think they go after Monroe, which personally i think is wrapped because of the relationship with the agent and i think Mills and Jackson got word through backchannels that Gasol and Aldridge are unattainable...both said they will not waste their time on players they know they can not get and move on....

after Monroe i think they want to add a defensive SG, i think they want Matthews, the question is how much does he want, does he take a smaller 2 year deal and wait for the big money...entirely possible coming off an injury...

So say you max Monroe-15 million

Say Matthews take a 2 year deal with opt out first year: 6 million

leaves you with 6-8 million left give or take depending on if Calderon is still here and Hrdaway...

Mudiay/Russell
Matthews
Melo
Monroe

I think a guy like Amir Johnson would be a good fit next to Monroe and Melo....

Johnson can block shots and he can also step out and hit a jump shot almost to 3 point range...

Mudiay or russell/Calderon
Matthews/hardaway/Galloway
Melo/Ledo
Monroe/Thomas
Johnson/Amundson/aldrich

You would also have the 2.5 million exception to add a vet for the bench...

hopefully you could get a couple of vets to stabilize it a little bit..

In comment 12296297 Italianju said:

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way too extreme. Does he have to play both PF and C? Cant you put a defensive guy next to him (gasol next to Randolph). Al Jefferson is not a bad NBA player, not sure why the idea that he is Al Jefferson means he is a bum. Jefferson hasnt exactly been on the best of teams which hurts the perception of him. A guy who steps on the court and goes 16 and 9 like you say is a pretty good player. Im fine not getting him, but id be pretty happy to get him.

If you're a center in the NBA and you want to win at any sort of level, you have to play good D. Who is the last championship team that had a poor defensive center?

In comment 12296307 Jon in NYC said:

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In comment 12296297 Italianju said: Quote: way too extreme. Does he have to play both PF and C? Cant you put a defensive guy next to him (gasol next to Randolph). Al Jefferson is not a bad NBA player, not sure why the idea that he is Al Jefferson means he is a bum. Jefferson hasnt exactly been on the best of teams which hurts the perception of him. A guy who steps on the court and goes 16 and 9 like you say is a pretty good player. Im fine not getting him, but id be pretty happy to get him. If you're a center in the NBA and you want to win at any sort of level, you have to play good D. Who is the last championship team that had a poor defensive center?

I'd argue historical center defense isn't that relevant because there are so few good centers. I think you need 1 rim protector/good defender. 4 or 5 doesn't matter.

look at the best team in the league, they are jump shooting team that plays their best when they are small and they have 6 foot 8 Forward playing Center...

Look at the east: Cavs are playing their best playing small with Thompson at Center...

the league is getting smaller and smaller...

or you get a 4 who plays great D. Plus i just feel like people have already decided that Okafor will be a 20 and 10 guy that is all empty stats and he will never get out of the first round. Considering what a lot of top 5 picks end up doing in the league if you pick al jefferson youve done a pretty good job.

Dwight Howard is what you want as a defensive center, but with so much of the game shifting to 3 point shooting, how critical will paint defense be going forward as conventional thinking makes room for new ideas. Up until 3 years ago they said that the game slows down in the playoffs and you needed to play a half court offense to win.

But the reliance of a big man post presence is dying in the NBA. The top 4 remaining teams in the NBA led the league were the top 4 in 3 point attempts during the regular season.

What did they have in common? They all start stretch 4s. Draymond Green, Terrence Jones, Milsap, Love (look how inefficient Lebron has been since Love went down), Josh Smith and D-Mo. Horford is even a stretch center.

I'm not crying for a stretch 4, but if we got Monroe that would solidify rebounding, passing, and a post game.

Al Jefferson and Randolph can at least hold their man down, Okafor can't give you anything defensively.

Al Jefferson, Greg Monroe, Brook Lopez, and Enes Kanter will all be free agents and can already do what Okafor is expected to 3-4 years from now. The supply is so high for an Okafor-type big in free agency and while the supply for an elite guard is virtually nonexistent in the next few years, why waste a 1st round pick, which we do not have many of in the coming years, on something that can be gotten for $10-$15 million a year in free agency, which isn't much given the upcoming cap increases.

if the Knicks end up with Okafor... wouldnt surprise me.. i see no way that Philly takes him if LA goes with the PG...

Its not simply making 3 point shots thats winning games.

If you have good 3 point shooting, that means wing defenders need to play up front more.

When wing players play up more, that means shooters then have to get into drive mode.

When wings are driving against defenders that are playing up close, they have a much higher chance of getting beat.

When the defender gets beat, who needs to rotate over to stop an easy 2?

The big.

Who are the top rim protectors in the league?

Gasol, Jordan, Mozgov, Howard, Gortat, Bogut, Duncan, Splitter, Robin Lopez, Chandler.

Look at where their teams finished this year.

We go with Winslow if our management is not live 15 years in the past.

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In comment 12296337 giantsfan44ab said:

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We go with Winslow if our management is not live 15 years in the past.

I dont see them passing on Okafor if both guards are gone..no way

would give us more then the guys you listed as FA, but he has more upside and wont cost a ton of money. Look i want Monroe and honestly am on the fence with Okafor so i dont want to come off as loving okafor i just think that he is being sold way short.

In comment 12296314 nygiants16 said:

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look at the best team in the league, they are jump shooting team that plays their best when they are small and they have 6 foot 8 Forward playing Center... Look at the east: Cavs are playing their best playing small with Thompson at Center... the league is getting smaller and smaller...

Draymond finished 2nd in DPOY this year. So that 6'8 guy is fucking good at defense.

The Cavs also went out of their way to trade two firsts to bring in Mozgov who has been a big help.

too many on here make it seem like a Herculean task for Okafor to turn into anything but Eddy Curry on the defensive end. When I watched him, yea he didn't show great lateral movement or aggressiveness on the defensive end, but I also saw someone who never got in foul trouble whatsoever. Is there any chance that Coach K actively told his best offensive performer that he is more important on the court than on the bench like most other freshman bigs? Plan seemed to work for Duke. Yea, he could have put more effort on D, but that's how freshman get into foul trouble. I may be totally wrong on this, but to act in such absolutes that he one poster is even saying he cant amount to the D level of Al Jefferson just seems foolish.

i think Okafor was asked to stay out of foul trouble and when you are playing D with the idea of not getting fouls you are going to look bad. I think okafor can be a an avg defender pretty easily. He will never be good, but if you just read these threads you would think okafor was possibly one of the worst defenders of all time.

Okafor played 300+ more minutes then KAT this season yet commited 34 less fouls. Now im not saying that okafor is anywhere near Towns as a defender, im just saying its obvious that he was asked to be less aggressive.

In comment 12296354 Jon in NYC said:

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In comment 12296314 nygiants16 said: Quote: look at the best team in the league, they are jump shooting team that plays their best when they are small and they have 6 foot 8 Forward playing Center... Look at the east: Cavs are playing their best playing small with Thompson at Center... the league is getting smaller and smaller... Draymond finished 2nd in DPOY this year. So that 6'8 guy is fucking good at defense. The Cavs also went out of their way to trade two firsts to bring in Mozgov who has been a big help.

Of course he is good at defense but he is not your traditional shot blocker....

and Mozgov has played well but he struggles against guys who can step out and hit the jump shot...

I will bet anything if Warriors go small, Mosgov has toruble and Cavs go small as well...

Knicks fans are going to be jumping for joy and forget all about not winning the lottery and falling to 4th...

In comment 12296355 Steve in Greenwich said:

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too many on here make it seem like a Herculean task for Okafor to turn into anything but Eddy Curry on the defensive end. When I watched him, yea he didn't show great lateral movement or aggressiveness on the defensive end, but I also saw someone who never got in foul trouble whatsoever. Is there any chance that Coach K actively told his best offensive performer that he is more important on the court than on the bench like most other freshman bigs? Plan seemed to work for Duke. Yea, he could have put more effort on D, but that's how freshman get into foul trouble. I may be totally wrong on this, but to act in such absolutes that he one poster is even saying he cant amount to the D level of Al Jefferson just seems foolish.

I am not saying he won't amount to Al Jefferson defensively, but by the time he does Melo may be long gone. It took Al Jefferson 12+ years to finally fit on a good team defense, and it lasted 1 year. That team also had MKG, Gerald Henderson, Cody Zeller, and Bismack biyombo.

Okafor had Winslow and Amile jefferson to do most of the defensive work so his rim protection was not as important for Duke's success. Please watch this video and fully absorb how atrocious he is at not only team defense, but defensive rebounding as well. If you can't defend you need someone to at least secure defensive boards.

It's one thing to not have a rim protector and have good wing defenders all around you. Its another thing to not have a rim protector, but its a COMPLETELY another thing if your wing defenders are THJR, Jose Calderon and Carmelo Anthony...


Jahlil defense - ( New Window )

gets all NBA first team. Aldridge gets 2nd team. Man what a get either of them would be for us. And yes i know there is like a 2% chance.

so admittedly not an expert and my opinions are based solely on things I can read about prospects so I am not going to begin to act like I know the best approach.

That said since having dropped to #4 I wonder if they wouldn't be better off and trading down a few spots and then taking a player who can help on defense. Not sure who, I have read Justise Winslow is a solid defender that would be available a little lower so maybe someone like him or whomever else might be a good defender available a little lower.

It would be great if the Knicks could swing getting back a first round pick for next year that they currently don't have plus some desperately needed defensive help. Then go after more proven offensive help in the free agent market.

gets all NBA first team. Aldridge gets 2nd team. Man what a get either of them would be for us. And yes i know there is like a 2% chance.

post..

75% chance he stays, 24% chance he goes to the Spurs, 1% chance he goes to the rockets, .5% chance he goes to Dallas, .5% chance he goes to Boston, Washington, or NY.

In comment 12296384 giantsfan44ab said:

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Please watch this video and fully absorb how atrocious he is at not only team defense, but defensive rebounding as well. If you can't defend you need someone to at least secure defensive boards. Jahlil defense - ( New Window )

Just watched the video, and yes watching him his defense is atrocious, but the very first highligted "Post Defense - Has the base and upper body strength to hold his own but doesn't show much toughness. Rarely bodies up. Plays 1-2 feet off his man" You tell me if that sounds like someone who is actively trying not to get into foul trouble. Then you watch the clips with that mindset and it becomes that much clearer. If not, then I'll be damned Coach K lost his mind leaving such a liability on the court all game long.

Okafor goes to Minny (per the rumors), Towns goes to the Lakers, Mudiay or Russell go to the 76ers and we end up with the one they don't choose.


Seems like one thing is for certain: we won't end up with Towns. I can't see him getting past the Lakers. So we're looking at either Okafor, Russell or Mudiay...or Phil can go off the board a bit and go for Winslow or...gulp. Willie Cauley-Stein.

In comment 12296402 steve in ky said:

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so admittedly not an expert and my opinions are based solely on things I can read about prospects so I am not going to begin to act like I know the best approach. That said since having dropped to #4 I wonder if they wouldn't be better off and trading down a few spots and then taking a player who can help on defense. Not sure who, I have read Justise Winslow is a solid defender that would be available a little lower so maybe someone like him or whomever else might be a good defender available a little lower. It would be great if the Knicks could swing getting back a first round pick for next year that they currently don't have plus some desperately needed defensive help. Then go after more proven offensive help in the free agent market.

Can trade out of the pick with Orlando for Kyle O'quinn and Moe Harkless

In comment 12296372 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 12296354 Jon in NYC said: Quote: In comment 12296314 nygiants16 said: Quote: look at the best team in the league, they are jump shooting team that plays their best when they are small and they have 6 foot 8 Forward playing Center... Look at the east: Cavs are playing their best playing small with Thompson at Center... the league is getting smaller and smaller... Draymond finished 2nd in DPOY this year. So that 6'8 guy is fucking good at defense. The Cavs also went out of their way to trade two firsts to bring in Mozgov who has been a big help. Of course he is good at defense but he is not your traditional shot blocker.... and Mozgov has played well but he struggles against guys who can step out and hit the jump shot... I will bet anything if Warriors go small, Mosgov has toruble and Cavs go small as well...

I never said shot blocker. Shot blocking is easily the most overrated stat in the NBA. STAT was a great shot blocker. Tyson wasn't. Who would you rather have controlling the paint?

In comment 12296307 Jon in NYC said:

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In comment 12296297 Italianju said: Quote: way too extreme. Does he have to play both PF and C? Cant you put a defensive guy next to him (gasol next to Randolph). Al Jefferson is not a bad NBA player, not sure why the idea that he is Al Jefferson means he is a bum. Jefferson hasnt exactly been on the best of teams which hurts the perception of him. A guy who steps on the court and goes 16 and 9 like you say is a pretty good player. Im fine not getting him, but id be pretty happy to get him. If you're a center in the NBA and you want to win at any sort of level, you have to play good D. Who is the last championship team that had a poor defensive center?

This is my issue and has been since Day 1. Brook Lopez is a good scorer and probably a better defender than Okafor is, but he only plays D when he wants to.

In comment 12296069 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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I didn't read this thread yet, so I have no idea if I'm just regurgitating here.

I don't see many comparisons between the two. Conley is a much better athlete who is quick and gets to the basket much better. He also has that pesky defense nature about him. D'Angelo is a lot smoother, may actually be a better passer though.

I'm really not a big D'Lo fan and I've maintained that position for months. I think he'll be a good player, but I'd rather risk the pick on a guy with more potential.

In comment 12296452 EricNY33 said:

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In comment 12296307 Jon in NYC said: Quote: In comment 12296297 Italianju said: Quote: way too extreme. Does he have to play both PF and C? Cant you put a defensive guy next to him (gasol next to Randolph). Al Jefferson is not a bad NBA player, not sure why the idea that he is Al Jefferson means he is a bum. Jefferson hasnt exactly been on the best of teams which hurts the perception of him. A guy who steps on the court and goes 16 and 9 like you say is a pretty good player. Im fine not getting him, but id be pretty happy to get him. If you're a center in the NBA and you want to win at any sort of level, you have to play good D. Who is the last championship team that had a poor defensive center? This is my issue and has been since Day 1. Brook Lopez is a good scorer and probably a better defender than Okafor is, but he only plays D when he wants to.

We've been agreeing a lot recently and it freaks me out.

Mudiay over Russell as well.

from Draft Express

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Okafor's Impact on Duke's Defense While Okafor is the most prolific and skilled offensive big man in college basketball, his play on the defensive end of the floor doesn't inspire anywhere near the same praise. SportVU keeps stats on �rim protection,� which is any instance where the defender is within five feet of the basket and within five feet of the offensive player attempting the shot. The numbers here suggest that Okafor hasn't been quite as ineffective as he appears to be on film at times. Okafor has been in a �rim protection� situation 8.8 times per game on average, which is a similar amount to that of his NBA center counterparts we studied in our six player sample. Opposing players have converted 45.5% of those field goal attempts. There are a number of potential explanations for this. Our 14 game sample includes games against the likes of Presbyterian, Fairfield, Furman, Army, Elon, Toledo and Wofford, some of were huge blowout wins for Duke. At the same time, Duke's home ACC slate included games against Boston College and Pittsburgh, neither of which present imposing frontcourt challenges. Watching the film, it's clear that when Okafor is operating at full intensity, he is able to make his presence felt with his strong frame, terrific length (wingspan measured between 7-5 and 7-6 in various settings) and solid anticipation skills. He's blocked 28 shots in 19 games so far this season, a decent mark, but his lapses in intensity, average awareness and fundamentals, and seeming unwillingness to be a consistent presence on a full-time basis have been quite glaring at times this year. Okafor's ability to emerge as a legit rim-protector, as well as his prowess as a pick and roll defender, which we studied closely in the following video, will likely play a huge role in the type of NBA player he ends up developing into.

In comment 12296456 Jon in NYC said:

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In comment 12296452 EricNY33 said: Quote: In comment 12296307 Jon in NYC said: Quote: In comment 12296297 Italianju said: Quote: way too extreme. Does he have to play both PF and C? Cant you put a defensive guy next to him (gasol next to Randolph). Al Jefferson is not a bad NBA player, not sure why the idea that he is Al Jefferson means he is a bum. Jefferson hasnt exactly been on the best of teams which hurts the perception of him. A guy who steps on the court and goes 16 and 9 like you say is a pretty good player. Im fine not getting him, but id be pretty happy to get him. If you're a center in the NBA and you want to win at any sort of level, you have to play good D. Who is the last championship team that had a poor defensive center? This is my issue and has been since Day 1. Brook Lopez is a good scorer and probably a better defender than Okafor is, but he only plays D when he wants to. We've been agreeing a lot recently and it freaks me out.

You know what they say about great minds... and if you don't you'll get there someday.

In comment 12296454 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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In comment 12296069 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: . I didn't read this thread yet, so I have no idea if I'm just regurgitating here. I don't see many comparisons between the two. Conley is a much better athlete who is quick and gets to the basket much better. He also has that pesky defense nature about him. D'Angelo is a lot smoother, may actually be a better passer though. I'm really not a big D'Lo fan and I've maintained that position for months. I think he'll be a good player, but I'd rather risk the pick on a guy with more potential.

Like Porzingis?

with super mario that teams are going to have to look at...he has al the talent but is his mind on the game...

Stupid Phil Jackson got rid of all the character concerns on this team. Craziness is built into the fabric of this franchise. Without them, we are nothing.

In comment 12296482 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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Stupid Phil Jackson got rid of all the character concerns on this team. Craziness is built into the fabric of this franchise. Without them, we are nothing.

Haha i am sure Jackson will find a couple of crazies he thinks he can change...

Dont be surprised if Bynum is given a chance..

are brutal, there are fouls called on almost every possession....

In comment 12296482 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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Stupid Phil Jackson got rid of all the character concerns on this team. Craziness is built into the fabric of this franchise. Without them, we are nothing.

I'd be fine with Hezonja OR Porzingis. I've gone on record saying as much. I just know we're not picking one of them. Unless of course we trade down.

I don't want Winslow. I just don't think there's anything special about him. He's a good player and does everything well, but to me, he doesn't do anything great.

In comment 12296482 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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Stupid Phil Jackson got rid of all the character concerns on this team. Craziness is built into the fabric of this franchise. Without them, we are nothing.

Well... he did coach Dennis Rodman, so I don't think he's too concerned about crazy. He's more concerned about crazy and being a good enough player to deal with the crazy.

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The Knicks place heavy emphasis on the interview process, feeling character is huge. They have more than a month to sort it out. �Love for competition, that�s our biggest need,�� Knicks coach Derek Fisher said during ESPN�s broadcast of the combine. �If it�s the NBA draft, you�ll find talent no matter what number it is. But it�s the right talent. That�s really what we�re looking for, which might be a departure from years in the past. But that�s our goal right now.��

Link - ( New Window )

he played on the same team with Mudiay and there was talk that he wanted one more chance in the NBA, i know he was a bust may be worth the gamble...

In comment 12296495 nygiants16 said:

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he played on the same team with Mudiay and there was talk that he wanted one more chance in the NBA, i know he was a bust may be worth the gamble...

Invite him to camp. Why not? There's nothing to lose by doing that.

In comment 12296499 EricNY33 said:

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In comment 12296495 nygiants16 said: Quote: he played on the same team with Mudiay and there was talk that he wanted one more chance in the NBA, i know he was a bust may be worth the gamble... Invite him to camp. Why not? There's nothing to lose by doing that.

Yeha he would probably want more of a commitment to come probably at least a guaranteed deal...ehh who knows just a thought

Porzingis would be up there in worst case scenario unless he comes in a package deal with a suitcase of steroids destined for his left ass cheek. He has the physique of an 11 year old boy. I think he's going to have an incredibly hard time gaining weight.

In comment 12296508 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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Porzingis would be up there in worst case scenario unless he comes in a package deal with a suitcase of steroids destined for his left ass cheek. He has the physique of an 11 year old boy. I think he's going to have an incredibly hard time gaining weight.

Based on what? He's 19. He'll grow into his body. I am not concerned about him getting stronger and gaining weight. Get him on the American diet. He'll get there in no time.

of the Knicks franchise!!

floors are absolutely frightening. I love Winslow... he's a winning player, but I don't foresee any scenario in which he would break into the top 4 players.

when he breaks down a defense or runs the pick and roll he is much better at kicking it out then either hitting the roll guy or hitting the open big who is standing there...

once he gets put onto an NBA workout regimen, the question is which team is going to take him knowing it is going to take a couple of years...

My only faith in him gaining weight in a reasonable amount of time is if his trainer fixes him an HGH cocktail every night before he goes to sleep and reads him a bed time story.

I really don't think Hezonja's floor is that low. Guys who can hit the 3 are worth their weight in gold in todays NBA.

I think we should settle ourselves down on Mudiay. Just a week ago we were talking about KAT like we were getting the #1 pick. Numb yourself to the pain and stop focusing on a prospect.

Knicks are more than likely getting 1 of Russell or Mudiay...

I wouldn't be happy if we came away with D'Lo after this shit show of a season.

In comment 12296543 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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I wouldn't be happy if we came away with D'Lo after this shit show of a season.

So then no player we pick is going to excite you. It was Towns or bust.

In comment 12296543 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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I wouldn't be happy if we came away with D'Lo after this shit show of a season.

so who are you going to be happy with?

I am not Russell's biggest fan but he does fit the triangle pretty well...I think Mudiay is going to end up the better PG but if it is Russell than thats who it is...

There is a clear top 4 and i will be happy with any of the top 4

Which excites me. It also excites me that I haven't watch any games of him so I can't pick apart his flaws like I can with D'Lo.

I also think Okafor is an exceptional talent..

Mitchell Abramson ‏@nydnmabramson 3m3 minutes ago
Bill laimbeer just said there's a "giant wall" between Knicks and liberty so Isiah won't have any input with Knicks.

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 3m3 minutes ago
Liberty's Bill Laimbeer on if Isiah will have a future role with the #Knicks: "No way. He's made it clear that that world is non-existent.

In comment 12296547 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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Which excites me. It also excites me that I haven't watch any games of him so I can't pick apart his flaws like I can with D'Lo. I also think Okafor is an exceptional talent..

There is a thread with 5 or 6 full games of Mudiay

.

I don't love Russell either. I love the mental part of his game and he's a really good shooter and passer, but his athletic limitations scare me.

In comment 12296552 EricNY33 said:

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I don't love Russell either. I love the mental part of his game and he's a really good shooter and passer, but his athletic limitations scare me.

Agreed

In comment 12296551 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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.

What kind of future GM are you?

In comment 12296537 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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My only faith in him gaining weight in a reasonable amount of time is if his trainer fixes him an HGH cocktail every night before he goes to sleep and reads him a bed time story. I really don't think Hezonja's floor is that low. Guys who can hit the 3 are worth their weight in gold in todays NBA. I think we should settle ourselves down on Mudiay. Just a week ago we were talking about KAT like we were getting the #1 pick. Numb yourself to the pain and stop focusing on a prospect.

If I had to choose between the Europeans, I'd definitely take Hezonja. It's way easier to visualize what he could be.

This is why team scouts need to see these players live. When I saw Winslow against Gonzaga, I saw a guy who made big 3s, despite not being a great jump shooter. He grabbed huge offensive rebounds. He got to the line when Duke needed to hold Gonzaga off. I was just so impressed by the numerous ways he helped them win games. The lone part of his game that's lacking is the one area a player can improve with hard work and by most accounts, Winslow is a hard worker.

None of these things affect the Knicks, but it's interesting to compare/contrast these players.

He is 7'1'.

wingspan is 7'9".

SEVEN FOOT FREAKING NINE!

With all the focus on Gasol, Aldridge, Jordan and to a lesser extent Lopezs and Koufos, I think this guy is going to be got at a good deal.

Per 36 Numbers:

PER: 20
PPG: 16.7
RPG: 11.8
BPG: 2

His main flaw is defensive rebounding but if we got Monroe I think he could take care of that.

Ajinca can also shoot jump shots.

Did I mention he has a SEVEN NINE WINGSPAN?
Alexis Ajinca Scouting Video - ( New Window )

he's garbage.

In comment 12296590 EricNY33 said:

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he's garbage.

Based off what?

The advanced numbers all attest to his defensive presence. He has been a net positive on the floor for New Orleans. He is long and athletic.

In comment 12296558 EricNY33 said:

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In comment 12296551 AnotherGiantsFan said: Quote: . What kind of future GM are you?

A lazy one. It takes me days to get through a movie if I watch it at home. Summer League will be around by the time I finish watching those 5 games.

I'll probably watch one of them if I start truly believing Mudiay falls to us. But I'm a Knicks fan, so I know I better get used to Frank Kaminsky as our future.

and research all of the players again, hoping to get someone that will make me proud to watch the Knicks with my kids again. I want to watch exciting team basketball again not this iso crap and let Melo shoot because no one else can. The reality is no matter who I get excited about the opposite will happen, I am tired of being disappointed time and time again. I fully expect theie pick to be someone like Kaminsky and/or a total bust and make me want to renounce my fandom.

In comment 12296676 Darth Paul said:

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and research all of the players again, hoping to get someone that will make me proud to watch the Knicks with my kids again. I want to watch exciting team basketball again not this iso crap and let Melo shoot because no one else can. The reality is no matter who I get excited about the opposite will happen, I am tired of being disappointed time and time again. I fully expect theie pick to be someone like Kaminsky and/or a total bust and make me want to renounce my fandom.

Appreciate the relevant insight. If that is the "reality" I am sorry because I don't know why you are wasting your time posting on this thread.

.

And believe they will stop hurting them. I can't say the same for the Knicks.

In comment 12296676 Darth Paul said:

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and research all of the players again, hoping to get someone that will make me proud to watch the Knicks with my kids again. I want to watch exciting team basketball again not this iso crap and let Melo shoot because no one else can. The reality is no matter who I get excited about the opposite will happen, I am tired of being disappointed time and time again. I fully expect theie pick to be someone like Kaminsky and/or a total bust and make me want to renounce my fandom.

relax it is not going to be Kaminsky..Knicks have the 4th pick not the 8th they are going to get a good player

In comment 12296692 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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And believe they will stop hurting them. I can't say the same for the Knicks.

Dude... that's the definition of battered wives. They don't find the good in their husband. They say that to justify the beating. LOL

In comment 12296669 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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In comment 12296558 EricNY33 said: Quote: In comment 12296551 AnotherGiantsFan said: Quote: . What kind of future GM are you? A lazy one. It takes me days to get through a movie if I watch it at home. Summer League will be around by the time I finish watching those 5 games. I'll probably watch one of them if I start truly believing Mudiay falls to us. But I'm a Knicks fan, so I know I better get used to Frank Kaminsky as our future.

If they're picking Kamensky it's because they traded down and picked up another asset in the process.

I really lost faith in Phil Jackson as far as trading goes. Just keep the pick and draft whoever falls to you.

don't see anyone trading up for 4 unless Okafor falls and I don't think Phil would have the guts to deal Okafor.

faith in him because he traded three guys who weren't going to be a part of their future anyway.

Ok.

Just because they aren't apart of the future, you still want an adequate return. I think Tyson Chandler is more apart of our future now than Jose Calderon is. Drafting an actual PG and making Jose Calderon an off guard would be a blessing. That's our only shot that he can help this team. A Kidd-lite, so to speak.

why there is much discussion about who the knicks will take at 4. The pick will be a no brainer, whoever falls of the top 4. Phil already made it clear that there is a drop off after top 4.

In comment 12296904 MookGiants said:

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why there is much discussion about who the knicks will take at 4. The pick will be a no brainer, whoever falls of the top 4. Phil already made it clear that there is a drop off after top 4.

There is literally no other discussion than which of the top 4 will fall to us.

In comment 12296903 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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Just because they aren't apart of the future, you still want an adequate return. I think Tyson Chandler is more apart of our future now than Jose Calderon is. Drafting an actual PG and making Jose Calderon an off guard would be a blessing. That's our only shot that he can help this team. A Kidd-lite, so to speak.

I'm not a Phil apologist but was gambling on Larkin really such a bad move? I mean I still think he might have a solid career as a good backup.

play in 2013-14.

Or Samuel fucking Dalembert in the playoffs against the Spurs.

As a legitimate Tyson replacement. Say what you want about Tyson, but Dalembert couldn't sniff Tyson's 3rd cousins jock string.

And Larkin sucks.

In comment 12296925 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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As a legitimate Tyson replacement. Say what you want about Tyson, but Dalembert couldn't sniff Tyson's 3rd cousins jock string. And Larkin sucks.

Larkin wasn't very good but a then 21 year old former 18th overall pick (the year prior) is EXACTLY the kind of player we should be gambling on.


" At 5-11, 175 pounds, Larkin's small size and shaky jumper restrict his ability to score, but he displays commendable floor general attributes. To that point, Larkin ranked 14th league-wide in assists per turnover (2.72) and also finished fifth in steals per turnover (1.12)."

A mid first rounder in a historically disgusting draft who is 5'11 on his tippy toes?

We should definitely be gambling on young guys, but I'm thinking more along the guys of Thomas Robinsons who have just been thrown around and hasn't quite found a home instead of a SG in a PGs body.

In comment 12296941 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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A mid first rounder in a historically disgusting draft who is 5'11 on his tippy toes? We should definitely be gambling on young guys, but I'm thinking more along the guys of Thomas Robinsons who have just been thrown around and hasn't quite found a home instead of a SG in a PGs body.

I'll roll the dice on any player recently picked in the first round, especially a guy who went just after the lottery.

When you're giving up Tyson Chandler?

I agree on rolling the dice. But there's rolling the dice, and then there are just bad trades.

In comment 12296951 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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When you're giving up Tyson Chandler? I agree on rolling the dice. But there's rolling the dice, and then there are just bad trades.

Tyson Chandler looked like the ultimate loser his final year here. He had the flu about 5 times, looked disinterested and seemed like a turdball. It wasn't some amazing trade (even at the time) but I don't remember people thinking it was terrible either.

In comment 12296951 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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When you're giving up Tyson Chandler? I agree on rolling the dice. But there's rolling the dice, and then there are just bad trades.

Do you honestly think people were beating down the Knicks' doors for a player who quit on the team the previous year? I don't. I think the team with a history with him took him back, just like we've seen the Giants do with players.

You're also forgetting that the Mavs took Raymond Felton back too. Felton picked up his option earlier this month, which he was definitely going to do. The Knicks had no interest in having him on their roster taking up salary cap space.

Knicks fans were the only fans who thought it was a good trade.

And there is absolutely no reason why we had to trade him at that moment. That's what contracts are for.

Not having ants in your pants gets you 2 first rounders for Timofey Mozgov.

Like I've said previously. I don't mind the trade in retrospect because it was so horrific on an otherwordly scale that it actually got us a top 5 pick. But there is no doubt that we've lost the trades we made. I don't know why that statement always attracts arguments on here. I thought it was common knowledge.

When we take a worse contract (Calderon) in return.

In comment 12296967 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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Knicks fans were the only fans who thought it was a good trade. And there is absolutely no reason why we had to trade him at that moment. That's what contracts are for. Not having ants in your pants gets you 2 first rounders for Timofey Mozgov. Like I've said previously. I don't mind the trade in retrospect because it was so horrific on an otherwordly scale that it actually got us a top 5 pick. But there is no doubt that we've lost the trades we made. I don't know why that statement always attracts arguments on here. I thought it was common knowledge.

Actually... most people who reviewed the trade thought it was a fair one. I don't remember anyone blasting the deal.

You have more of an argument about the Smith/Shumpert deal, but the truth is they just wanted J.R. Smith gone. I do think there's an argument to be made about that one. However, it still doesn't matter to me. I didn't see either player as part of anything with this team. I was tired of waiting for Shumpert to grow a set of balls and I was tired of J.R. Smith chucking up ridiculous shots. Moving them was addition by subtraction.

.

Even thst good this year?

.

In comment 12296996 nygiants16 said:

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Even thst good this year?

He was. He averaged a double-double and had a PER over 20, but he played like he played the first season for us. He didn't dog it.

for a playoff caliber team than needed a big? The 8th seed? At least we got a 2nd round pick out of it.

I've been hard on Phil but you gotta look at what he had to work with. He doesn't have many 1st round picks and Shumpert didn't look like he was going to be worth whatever teams were going to offer him in FA, at least not with the Knicks, so instead of just not matching his offer he used his contract to get rid of some salary in JR this coming year.

Some people argue we could've gotten more but what is "more" with Shumpert? What team was readily giving a 1st rounder for him? We don't want future contract commitments so instead of acquiring assets we got cap space, which looks to be valuable as we can now sign 2-3 quality guys in FA and nab a top 4 pick.

I know how brutal its been, but believe it or not this is the FIRST year we can truly build around Melo instead having to work around STAT's contract and forcing those 2 to fit with each other for how ever many years its been.

issue wasn't necessarily what we gave up, but that Calderon ended up being a total albatross. He was supposed to be plus value.

but I'm not calling Phil Jackson a failure based on what a 35 year old PG is and isn't giving us.

These next 2 offseason are the ones that will define Phil's tenure in NY.

He traded for that 35 year old PG...

Of course he deserves accountability for that.

I don't think Phil is a failure though. I just think he's had a rough start.

Knew/knows that smith is a guy that needs a purpose to play- whether it's a contract or because the team is winning----- similarly shumpert is a player that has a lot of value to a good team and no value with a bad team.

So the issue is the Knicks were not forward thinking- if they get 3 players put of this offseason that gives them 6 nba players on the roster- they killed their depth---- they want to win.... Why not keep the "trouble guys" until the offseason and then 1) bring in a vet leader who doesn't put up with shit- example would be David west type personality--- bring on 3 additional players and now hardaway goes from you 5th best player to barely getting minutes- They got nothing back- and now have a roster that is bare

And taking on a bad contract old pg was stupid as well- especially because at the time they were still hoping to be a playoff team. He stinks. Terrible deal.

Everything he has done in his short stint has been a fail.

That sounds negative, but thankfully for the Knicks those were minor things in the grand scheme. Phil will be judged by what he does with this pick, and this and next free agency--- if he does well then everything is a home run.

defensively, while he was here. Still, the fact that Mozgov got Denver two first rounders in return while we had to give Chandler away really irked me. Calderon was about as effective as Felton last year.

The 4th pick in a 4 player draft, instead of sixth or seventh.

And they got out of Smith's player option for next year, which would have been dicey if he stayed in NY and was unmotivated.

No sense worrying about what the Knicks will do as they have no say in the matter. They will take the guy left to them. You'd expect the bigs to go first but there may be a surprise in there somewhere. As far as the guards Mudiay may have the higher ceiling based on his athletic ability but Russell is the better fit in the triangle bringing the superior shooting ability.

It's a win/win/win/win situation. In one way this could be construed as the best possible scenario as Phil can't possibly be second guessed in the aftermath. Unless he decides to trade the pick which would be a mistake imo.

Where they both went to school aside? Is it possible Russell has a similar career track?

In comment 12297291 Anakim said:

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Where they both went to school aside? Is it possible Russell has a similar career track?

I don't see it. Turner is a good passer but Russell can run point. Turner and Russell or also on complete opposite ends of the shooting ability spectrum. Scouts say shooting is the most translatable skill to the nba.

then Turner was. Although i did not like turner coming out, he was a solid everything but great at nothing player. To be honest i didnt hate him, i just didnt like him as a top 2 pick type player. Russell is a way better offensive player in my opinion.

In comment 12297291 Anakim said:

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Where they both went to school aside? Is it possible Russell has a similar career track?

Totally different players.

that this is a 4 player draft, we have a top 4 pick, and we're going to somehow not end up with one of the top 4?

i think we keep the pick and take whichever of the 4 is left. I know the media desperately wants to make it look like we are trying to trade it but i dont see that at all. You arent getting the caliber of player that Jackson would want for the 4th pick. I know everyhone will say the knicks want to win now but honestly who are we getting for that pick that would be that much better then taking the kid. Rookie guards have stepped in and played very well in recent years.

When they give themselves the opportunity to actually pick young players, they do well for themselves.

I don't really expect them to walk up to the podium, and just crap their pants. They've generally hit on their picks in the past decade.

we have done pretty poorly when picking top 10. Obviously Hill was a horrible pick, Sweetney wasnt great although that was a shitty draft, Frye was ehh although again it wasnt a great draft. and Gallo was fine. We have done when picking outside the top 15, but havent exactly hit homeruns with our high picks. Of course we havent had a pick this high since Ewing.

In comment 12297361 Jon in NYC said:

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that this is a 4 player draft, we have a top 4 pick, and we're going to somehow not end up with one of the top 4?

Yes.

I have 2 fears.

1) Okafor falls to us, we take him and he winds up a bad fit and a bust.

2) Russell or Mudiay are there at 4 and we pass on both for some other guy that Phil is enamored with and thinks is more a "triangle guy" and we miss out on one of the best players in the class.

Russell is the guy I really want. I don't know if that's popular opinion or not, I haven't been too deep in these threads. I am assuming Towns is gone no matter what and it's a crapshoot between the other 3. I would be thrilled if Russell was there at 4.

I think Okafor has the highest bust potential of the big 4. Nice upside but I've seen too many future Dleaguers and guys who won't even make the Dleague make him look bad on defense.

by far the lowest bust potential. His offensive game should make him a solid player at worst. A 15-20 point a game center who plays no D still has value in this league. Mudiay/Russell can easily bust. Russsell could struggle to get by NBA defenders and become just a jump shooter (his shot is not good enough for that) and mudiay is still an unknown. Towns has a low bust rate due to his solid D, but he is not an elite level athlete so there is a chance his D does not translate that well and his offensive game could go either way still. Again i dont think any of them bust, but Okafor to me is the least likely to be a complete bust.

unless they get totally blown away with an offer...

Phil mentioned that if they were 5 he would trade it but at 4 he knows this is a 4 player draft...

He is taking the player that falls to him, i dont think he takes winslow or stein or kaminsky...

I think Russell is the better fit right now at the triangle but i think Mudiay becomes the better PG....Phil has mentioned he wants a slasher, a guy who can get into the lane and create, that describes Mudiay...

There are rumblings that Kat and Okafor are going to refuse to workout for Minnesota hoping they will pass on them...

7 million, 3 million and i believe one for 1.5 million...

those can be valuable to teams that have a bigger contract and have to sign key role players...

a team like the bulls may want that 7 million trade exception for Pau or Gibson so they can sign Butler...

you never know...

is a year we want to conserve all our capspace. Otherwise im sure we can add an extra first later in the round from a team looking to save some money. Maybe once we have used all our capspace we can use it to get a pick next year since we dont have our own.

In comment 12297466 Italianju said:

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is a year we want to conserve all our capspace. Otherwise im sure we can add an extra first later in the round from a team looking to save some money. Maybe once we have used all our capspace we can use it to get a pick next year since we dont have our own.

THye expire july 1st...

crap. So if we use that TPE we would have to really like the guy we were getting. To be honest i doubt id use it on Gibson even if the bulls were willing to do that (which i dont think they would).

In comment 12297479 Italianju said:

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crap. So if we use that TPE we would have to really like the guy we were getting. To be honest i doubt id use it on Gibson even if the bulls were willing to do that (which i dont think they would).

The only reason i mentioned the Bulls is because of their cap situation and having to sign Butler...

Plus they have Mirotic so they have a log jam of big men and if Thibs is gone they may go to a new faster paced system depending on who they bring in....

Maybe Noah becomes available he is a free agent after next year..

In comment 12297437 Italianju said:

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by far the lowest bust potential. His offensive game should make him a solid player at worst. A 15-20 point a game center who plays no D still has value in this league. Mudiay/Russell can easily bust. Russsell could struggle to get by NBA defenders and become just a jump shooter (his shot is not good enough for that) and mudiay is still an unknown. Towns has a low bust rate due to his solid D, but he is not an elite level athlete so there is a chance his D does not translate that well and his offensive game could go either way still. Again i dont think any of them bust, but Okafor to me is the least likely to be a complete bust.

I'd agree with that statement. If all else fails he will still get his points and high FG%. He is Enes Kanter sans the jump shot, which isn't totally great when considering a top 4 talent, but when looking at the floor of guys like Kristaps and Hezonja, Enes Kanter doesn't look so bad.

But considering Kanter is still young and can shoot and is a free agent it sort of beckons the question of whether or not to just sign him and draft Hezonja and Winslow if the two PGs aren't there...

Would you guys consider Kevin Martin for the trade exception? Shit he's still a 20 PPG and his efficiency makes up for his lack of defense and is on a good contract for the production he brings. Of course this is assuming we get a rim protector and not Okafor as to not be a complete joke on defense.

In comment 12297497 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 12297479 Italianju said: Quote: crap. So if we use that TPE we would have to really like the guy we were getting. To be honest i doubt id use it on Gibson even if the bulls were willing to do that (which i dont think they would). The only reason i mentioned the Bulls is because of their cap situation and having to sign Butler... Plus they have Mirotic so they have a log jam of big men and if Thibs is gone they may go to a new faster paced system depending on who they bring in.... Maybe Noah becomes available he is a free agent after next year..

Trade exception + THJR + Early for Gibson? Or maybe Calderon + THJR (this one's a stretch)? Dunleavy, Hinrich and Aaron Brooks are all free agents so they will need to resupply guards if other teams pull those guys away while they are giving Butler the max?

Gibson is the ideal PF. He is a winning player

the goal should be to get a draft pick...if your giving a team cap relief on a contract they do not want anymore you have to be getting a pick back...

The goal should be to get into the late 1st or very early 2nd to pick up an extra asset...

In comment 12297515 giantsfan44ab said:

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In comment 12297497 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 12297479 Italianju said: Quote: crap. So if we use that TPE we would have to really like the guy we were getting. To be honest i doubt id use it on Gibson even if the bulls were willing to do that (which i dont think they would). The only reason i mentioned the Bulls is because of their cap situation and having to sign Butler... Plus they have Mirotic so they have a log jam of big men and if Thibs is gone they may go to a new faster paced system depending on who they bring in.... Maybe Noah becomes available he is a free agent after next year.. Trade exception + THJR + Early for Gibson? Or maybe Calderon + THJR (this one's a stretch)? Dunleavy, Hinrich and Aaron Brooks are all free agents so they will need to resupply guards if other teams pull those guys away while they are giving Butler the max? Gibson is the ideal PF. He is a winning player

Can not package the trade exception with another player...

so for example Knicks traded Prigioni for 2 seconds and then part of a trade exception for Shved...it was two different deals..

for Gibson. I def dont want to start piling on more assets. Again the bulls prolly wont give him away anyway.

Kanter is a RFA and i doubt OKC lets him walk.

He's 19. We don't know whether he will improve but he certainly can. Go back and look at scouting reports for Marc Gasol and you'll see there were questions about his defense too. That doesn't mean that he will become a good defender or not. But it's way to early to say what kind of player he'll be at 25.

In comment 12297542 BeerFridge said:

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He's 19. We don't know whether he will improve but he certainly can. Go back and look at scouting reports for Marc Gasol and you'll see there were questions about his defense too. That doesn't mean that he will become a good defender or not. But it's way to early to say what kind of player he'll be at 25.

Its not just simply his bad defense but he isn't an athlete by any means. You can look at his games against other NBA prospects and he had trouble against other NBA prospects. He didn't make much noise in the later games of the tourney:

Against Utah (Jacob Poetl): 3/6 for 6 points, 8 boards, 4 TOs
Against Gonzaga (witljer): 4/10 9 points 8 boards
Against Wisconsin (Kaminsky): 5/9 10 points 3 boards

At 25 I would hope he still isn't a liability on defense. But he hasn't shown any signs of rim protection skills.

I mean he was getting blown by Kaminsky off the bounce in the championship game. kaminsky is more of a jump shooter since he is slow footed but he had NO issue against Okafor.

player who is that missing 3rd banana in OKC and, if all stay healthy, I think can easily be a top 2 seed in the West.

BUT, OKC is already $13 million over the cap and an offer of $10 million + could be enough to pull him away from them.

Maybe they try getting rid of Waiters, Lamb, Novak, and maybe Perry Jones to clear that $13 million or maybe they bite the bullet with the luxury tax for 1 year before the cap increases, but I say its 50/50 if a large enough offer comes for Kanter. They have Adams, Mcgary, collison, and Ibaka already, and they have played small with the KD at the 4 and have found success so they might see a way of living without Kanter. Plus they can only really play Kanter with Ibaka on the floor.

But I don't see why Kanter wouldn't be a better option than Okafor. He is still young as well, and Okafor's ceiling IS Enes Kanter, and thats assuming Okafor develops a jump shot which is currently non-existent.

Going for Lopez could be riskier, but there is higher reward because even though he isn't a true rim protector, there are times where he keys in on defense and can hold it down.

where he isnt a liability on defense then you should think he is going to be a very good pro. Even those numbers you listed he shot about 50% from the field. And you didnt include the Mich St game where he had 18 on 7/11.

Right now you could argue who has more of a developed post game between the two and Okafor is 3-4 years younger. Okafor has the chance to be an ELITE offensive player, not good, but Elite. Kanter just doesnt have the offensive game that Okafor does. Sure Kanter has a better mid range game, but that is what bigs develop when they get to the NBA, Kanter did not come into the league with a mid range game (if i remember, tough to tell since he barely even played his rookie year).

he was getting doubled every time he touched the ball, that is why Winslow and Tyus Jones had a good tournament, they were getting open looks becuse the defense was so focused on Okafor..

Knicks will get one of the PGs, I think the Knicks are better off Pairing Melo with a perimiter player than another big guy post scorer...

want Mudiay!!!!!!!!!!

In comment 12297614 DanMetroMan said:

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want Mudiay!!!!!!!!!!

That's my preference too.

It's incredibly difficult to win in the NBA without quality guard play. We're not even at average guard play and it kills us and it kills Melo. Osi has made this argument here before and it's worth repeating: Melo needs to be able to play off the ball. It will lengthen his career and he's an excellent mover and finisher.

In comment 12297622 Ash_3 said:

Quote:

In comment 12297614 DanMetroMan said: Quote: want Mudiay!!!!!!!!!! That's my preference too. It's incredibly difficult to win in the NBA without quality guard play. We're not even at average guard play and it kills us and it kills Melo. Osi has made this argument here before and it's worth repeating: Melo needs to be able to play off the ball. It will lengthen his career and he's an excellent mover and finisher.

Bringing in Mudiay will allow Melo to play off the ball which would be great...he will become a more efficient scorer playing off the ball and getting catch and shoot oppurtunities...

In comment 12297614 DanMetroMan said:

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want Mudiay!!!!!!!!!!

you know what is going to happen, we are going to get all excited about Mudiay and he is going to kill it in his workouts and he will get drafted by the Lakers or Sixers and Knicks end up with Russell, which is not horrible, but i agree I WANT MUDIAY!!

just like everything I have seen and read about this kid. Hard worker, plus athlete, smart kid.

In comment 12297633 DanMetroMan said:

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just like everything I have seen and read about this kid. Hard worker, plus athlete, smart kid.

And he can't shoot, which makes him Dan's favorite prospect immediately. :-)

Darko and Curtis Borchardt!

In comment 12297587 Italianju said:

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Right now you could argue who has more of a developed post game between the two and Okafor is 3-4 years younger. Okafor has the chance to be an ELITE offensive player, not good, but Elite. Kanter just doesnt have the offensive game that Okafor does. Sure Kanter has a better mid range game, but that is what bigs develop when they get to the NBA, Kanter did not come into the league with a mid range game (if i remember, tough to tell since he barely even played his rookie year).

I didn't include the Michigan St game because he was guarded by a PF (Brandon Dawson) who is 6'8" (thats being generous).

NBA draft net had Kanter's jump shot ranked a 9 and has him higher ranked in terms of athleticism as well.

Again, how many teams rely on a big man to produce in the post? I'd argue that Kanter's versatility makes him a better offensive threat. He averaged 18 and 12. He is a better rebounder, especially on defense. I'd argue his defensive potential is higher than Okafor's given his athletic ability.

Maybe his post potential isn't as high as Okafor's but really how much does the difference between great and elite make in today's NBA of jump shooting? Especially with Melo creating, the less clutter down low the better.

And I meant Okafor won't be a liability on man to man defense, not that he looks to be a rim protector.
Kanter scouting - ( New Window )

In comment 12297635 EricNY33 said:

Quote:

In comment 12297633 DanMetroMan said: Quote: just like everything I have seen and read about this kid. Hard worker, plus athlete, smart kid. And he can't shoot, which makes him Dan's favorite prospect immediately. :-)

He actually shot pretty well this season (limited games no doubt) but his form looks pretty solid. I'm all-in on Mudiay.

In comment 12297652 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 12297635 EricNY33 said: Quote: In comment 12297633 DanMetroMan said: Quote: just like everything I have seen and read about this kid. Hard worker, plus athlete, smart kid. And he can't shoot, which makes him Dan's favorite prospect immediately. :-) He actually shot pretty well this season (limited games no doubt) but his form looks pretty solid. I'm all-in on Mudiay.

LOL I was just playin around. I am at work and don't feel like doing a damn thing.

I would be happy with Mudiay as well.

so make sure to mention small sample size. I dont not like Kanter or anythnig, i just think its crazy to say that he is okafor's ceiling. The 26 games in OKC aside he has never lit the world on fire on the rebounding side so i dont see why you think Okafor cant be just as good of a rebounder as he is.

my preference is

towns
Mudiay
Okafor (i keep going back and forth on him and mudiay)
russell

Anybody else feel like Towns is getting a little too much hype? I wanted him and think he is the best player in this draft, but i def dont see him as a generational talent type guy and i feel like he is talked about like he is.

In comment 12297660 Italianju said:

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my preference is towns Mudiay Okafor (i keep going back and forth on him and mudiay) russell Anybody else feel like Towns is getting a little too much hype? I wanted him and think he is the best player in this draft, but i def dont see him as a generational talent type guy and i feel like he is talked about like he is.

I feel the exact same way about Towns. I think he's one of the worst "best prospects" to come around in a while.

In comment 12297660 Italianju said:

Quote:

my preference is towns Mudiay Okafor (i keep going back and forth on him and mudiay) russell Anybody else feel like Towns is getting a little too much hype? I wanted him and think he is the best player in this draft, but i def dont see him as a generational talent type guy and i feel like he is talked about like he is.

I think Minnesota is the perfect fit for him because Garnett is there, maybe give him a little bit of mean streak and develop into a very very good 2 way player...

Okafor is someone that 1 minute i think is going to bust or be a 1 way player and then another i am thinking he is going to be a great player...it all depends how hard he works on the defensive end...He has definitely thinned out since the season ended so he is definitely working hard but who knows...

Russell i go back and forth on to, on one hand he is not very athletic or has that quick first step but he is so crafty and has a very smooth jumper that i think he could develop into a good offensive player, defense worries me..

Mudiay he has hte ability to have all the tools, he can pass, drive by people, he is athletic, he is quick, he has defensive potential, his shot is not terrible it definitely needs to be more consistent...I just think when all is said and done he is the best pro...he is the most pro ready in my opinion out of the 4...

think Towns could have gone as low as 4th last year, likely goes #1 in 2013, 2nd in 2012, 2nd in 2011, 2nd in 2010, 2nd in 2009, 2nd in 2008, 3rd or 4th in 2007

I don't think Towns is getting overhyped. I think he's being talked about as the best player in this class. Almost everyone is saying it's going to take some time for him to develop into the player he will most likely become. Nobody is saying he's going to come in and dominate immediately.

In comment 12297673 DanMetroMan said:

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think Towns could have gone as low as 4th last year, likely goes #1 in 2013, 2nd in 2012, 2nd in 2011, 2nd in 2010, 2nd in 2009, 2nd in 2008, 3rd or 4th in 2007

I disagree. I think Towns goes 1st last year too. People forget that Wiggins was hyped as the next LeBron and had a mostly disappointing freshman season at Kansas. Also... Embiid is the clear #1 pick if he doesn't break his foot.

doesn't seem very likely to ever be a franchise player to me. In fact I'd be pretty shocked. In some years the #1 overall is a clear "woah". The Knicks picking 4th sort of sucks but far less than in a year when such a player existed.

all the tools are there for him to be a franchise player. Time will tell.

In comment 12297697 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

doesn't seem very likely to ever be a franchise player to me. In fact I'd be pretty shocked. In some years the #1 overall is a clear "woah". The Knicks picking 4th sort of sucks but far less than in a year when such a player existed.

Towns draws alot of comparisons to Bogut and I don't think thats a terrible one. Bogut was a 16 and 10 guy and held down the fort in Milwaukee. If you consider that "franchise" player, then I think he is. Depends on your definition. I think "cornerstone" is the most appropriate word for him. I think Towns is stronger and might have a more reliable jumper than Bogut.

It all depends on context. If you are Philly or LA and are expecting him to be the face of your franchise, then you may not like your return on investment.

Minnesota is the perfect spot for him. Wiggins is the clear face of the franchise, and Lavine has all kind of potential. Then you've got some good guys like Rubio, Shabazz, and Dieng and it looks like you have something.

I agree, if he went last year I think he goes #3 or 4. Philly would give some hesitation but I think their philosophy of getting higher potential guys may still lead them to Embiid. But Towns is in that talent group just under parker and wiggins, I think hes a far and away better prospect than Gordon, Smart and Exum if he went last year.

or Parker and it would be close with Embiid but only due to the injury. I thought Embiid was way more impressive last year then Towns was this year.

he would be the number 1 pick and it would not be close

In comment 12297732 Italianju said:

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or Parker and it would be close with Embiid but only due to the injury. I thought Embiid was way more impressive last year then Towns was this year.

There is always a premium on big men.

In comment 12297361 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

that this is a 4 player draft, we have a top 4 pick, and we're going to somehow not end up with one of the top 4?

Yes. Welcome to the dark side. From the lottery thread...

Quote:

My prediction Deej : 5/19/2015 8:50 pm : link : reply Towns, Russell, Okafor go 1-2-3 (any order). Dolan and Phil decide they're not interested in "the Chinese kid" sight unseen. We take Cauley-Stein.

Quote:

RE: My prediction Jon in NYC : 5/19/2015 8:51 pm : link : reply In comment 12293511 Deej said... No chance. We'll get Mudiay.

Link - ( New Window )

but Phil himself said this is a 4 player draft, that is why if the Knicks were 5th they would probably trade out....

I have no doubt whoever of the top 4 are sitting there at 4 Phil is drafting them...

I atleast make a call to Philly about Embiid for the #4 pick.

I know about 95% of you would not be a fan of that because the combination of "Knicks luck" + "Big Man Foot Injury" scares the shit out of you. I get that.

But IMO a healthy Embiid has a special ceiling, one that neither Towns or Okafor has. I think a healthy Embiid could be a dominant #1 guy on a contender.

But the foot thing. There's a lot of risk with that and if you want to go the safer route, I get it. But damn, this is the perfect time for any team to come in and scoop Embiid up before he demolishes the league. The reward is worth the risk imo. I doubt Philly does that trade anyway.

In comment 12297799 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

Quote:

I atleast make a call to Philly about Embiid for the #4 pick. I know about 95% of you would not be a fan of that because the combination of "Knicks luck" + "Big Man Foot Injury" scares the shit out of you. I get that. But IMO a healthy Embiid has a special ceiling, one that neither Towns or Okafor has. I think a healthy Embiid could be a dominant #1 guy on a contender. But the foot thing. There's a lot of risk with that and if you want to go the safer route, I get it. But damn, this is the perfect time for any team to come in and scoop Embiid up before he demolishes the league. The reward is worth the risk imo. I doubt Philly does that trade anyway.

No way because of the foot thing and that alone. Big men with foot injuries really never get healed. They just learn to cope with it.

I loved what I saw from Embiid at Kansas but I want no part of him with that injury.

In comment 12297799 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

Quote:

I atleast make a call to Philly about Embiid for the #4 pick. I know about 95% of you would not be a fan of that because the combination of "Knicks luck" + "Big Man Foot Injury" scares the shit out of you. I get that. But IMO a healthy Embiid has a special ceiling, one that neither Towns or Okafor has. I think a healthy Embiid could be a dominant #1 guy on a contender. But the foot thing. There's a lot of risk with that and if you want to go the safer route, I get it. But damn, this is the perfect time for any team to come in and scoop Embiid up before he demolishes the league. The reward is worth the risk imo. I doubt Philly does that trade anyway.

If Knicks had 2 i think they would think about it becuase then they could get Okafor and russell or Mudiay and they would have nice young trio with Noel...

At 4 ...they get Russell or mudiay at 3 who do they take at 4?

What's your order for who you want the Knicks to get?


Me:

1) KAT
2) Mudiay
3) Okafor
4) Russell


Though Russell could elapse Okafor

In comment 12297808 Anakim said:

Quote:

What's your order for who you want the Knicks to get? Me: 1) KAT 2) Mudiay 3) Okafor 4) Russell Though Russell could elapse Okafor

In terms of pure player talents or factoring in the dearth of big men in the NBA?

If I were going to rank the 100 players in the NBA 5-6 years from now, these are where I think you would see them on a list, from best to worst:

Mudiay
KAT
Kristaps
Hezonja
Russell
Okafor

Obviously I am going with potential there, if I were ranking Day 1 readiness, Okafor and Russell would be ahead of the international kids

for #2 overall and Randle... Yes or no? I say yes.

In comment 12297847 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

for #2 overall and Randle... Yes or no? I say yes.

I'd do it for the #2 pick overall period. But I suppose I'd be in a minority.

In comment 12297808 Anakim said:

Quote:

What's your order for who you want the Knicks to get? Me: 1) KAT 2) Mudiay 3) Okafor 4) Russell Though Russell could elapse Okafor

Whoops missed the whole "who do you want the knicks to get" part.

Me:
1.) KAT
2.) Mudiay
3.) Russell
4.) Okafor or Hezonja (trade out)

I've made my stance clear on how I view Okafor. In an era of "Big 3s" I just don't think he fits the bill as a two way player. I think he could crack the #3 guy but I see him as being a luxury #4 player on a contending team. The 4 guys I listed I believe can be the #3 or even #2 guy.

I just don't see a big like Okafor on any recent title contending team. This is a jump shooting era. If you can't shoot you sure as hell better defend. You can bring up Zach Randolph but Randolph is one of the toughest guys in the league and can give you defensive boards. Okafor is a finesse big with good touch but thats about as good as it gets.

In comment 12297847 DanMetroMan said:

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for #2 overall and Randle... Yes or no? I say yes.

Give me Jordan Clarkson instead of Randle.

In comment 12297847 DanMetroMan said:

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for #2 overall and Randle... Yes or no? I say yes.

This is a no brainer... Where do I sign up?

�He is a great kid,� Bynum, who finished the season playing with the Wizards, said in a text message. �Very eager and willing to learn and a very fast learner. Really good in pick and roll and open court and he has the ability to be a lockdown defender.�

In comment 12297865 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

In comment 12297847 DanMetroMan said: Quote: for #2 overall and Randle... Yes or no? I say yes. Give me Jordan Clarkson instead of Randle.

Man you'd get fired as a GM faster than I would!

In comment 12297847 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

for #2 overall and Randle... Yes or no? I say yes.

I'd do it but why would L.A. ever do that?

if they'd bite for the #2 pick for Melo.

The pick and Randle is preposterous.

Okafor and a starting PG is a good start.

In comment 12297780 Deej said:

Quote:

In comment 12297361 Jon in NYC said: Quote: that this is a 4 player draft, we have a top 4 pick, and we're going to somehow not end up with one of the top 4? Yes. Welcome to the dark side. From the lottery thread... Quote: My prediction Deej : 5/19/2015 8:50 pm : link : reply Towns, Russell, Okafor go 1-2-3 (any order). Dolan and Phil decide they're not interested in "the Chinese kid" sight unseen. We take Cauley-Stein. Quote: RE: My prediction Jon in NYC : 5/19/2015 8:51 pm : link : reply In comment 12293511 Deej said... No chance. We'll get Mudiay. Link - ( New Window )

I think my relentless optimism has been broken.

Fuck Dolan.

Not getting Randle and the #2 in that deal, of course, but #2 and maybe a future lottery-protected #1?

Not #1, obviously

You would have almost 50 million in cap space have okafor and mudiay to build around would be a young and fun team...

Rebuild!

Melo for the 2nd pick and pray that Minn passes on KAT (never gonna happen). I doubt LA would do that trade though

When the workouts start?

In comment 12297883 EricNY33 said:

Quote:

In comment 12297865 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: In comment 12297847 DanMetroMan said: Quote: for #2 overall and Randle... Yes or no? I say yes. Give me Jordan Clarkson instead of Randle. Man you'd get fired as a GM faster than I would!

Give me an all rookie first team guy instead of an inury-risk guy with no defensive ability and no proven offensive game. Randle doesn't project as a starter on any good team. He is Thomas Robinson 2.0

17 PER

16.7 PPG and 5.4 APG in 32 mpg

6'5" with a 6'8" Wingspan

Whats the case for Randle?

This draft is getting of lot of hype or praise not because of one player like towns but because of 4-5 players.

Towns is a big that can defend while showing promise offensively. That's gonna generate a lot of hype in any year. Bigs are tricky though... Not much to dislike with towns but he could be a jag in the NBA. Same with oke...

comes off as very intelligent and very mature
Link - ( New Window )

Yes please. I'm convinced that NY will not win w Melo on this team. This would make for a full rebuild that I believe NY fans would love. 2 young rookies that can develop right infront of us would be amazing.

need Randle in the deal, I'd take Melo for #2 straight up right now. I dont know if the Lakers would do it, but I do know the Knicks wouldn't. They're not smart enough to do something like that, particularly Dolan

Ian Begley, ESPN Staff Writer

"The New York Knicks are enamored with D'Angelo Russell and have scouted Emmanuel Mudiay extensively.

But they�re considering more than just point guards in the 2015 NBA Draft.

ESPN.com�s Chad Ford tweeted on the night of the NBA Draft Lottery that the Knicks are "big Justise Winslow fans."

They interviewed Winslow during the NBA Draft Combine in Chicago earlier this month and will likely hold a private workout with him prior to the draft.

ESPN Insider Kevin Pelton sees Winslow as the best wing in the draft. However, Pelton believes Winslow�s strong NCAA Tournament performance may have led some to overvalue him.

ESPN�s Chad Ford says Winslow lacks a great off-the-dribble jump shot and has a poor midrange game. But Winslow also does many things well, including the ability to defended multiple positions and rebounding."

Is a mistake at #4. You do not pass on talented big lead guards for an undersized 3-man.

In comment 12298648 Reeses Pieces said:

Quote:

Is a mistake at #4. You do not pass on talented big lead guards for an undersized 3-man.

Undersized 3 man? He will play the 2 in the league. I obviously would rather have the PGs in this draft but if Winslow turned out to be like Jimmy Butler it wouldn't surprise me. I think he's safer than any of the top 4 picks because worst case scenario you get an elite perimeter defender who is a good cutter and can hit knock down spot up jump shots.

His floor is a jacked Shumpert and his ceiling is Jimmy Butler.

My biggest fear at the 4 spot is that Okafor, Towns, Mudiay, and Russell all gave the potential to be the #1 player for their respective teams. Winslow may be a good productive player in the league. But imo I do not see him ever carrying team. Something these 4 other players may one day do.