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NFT: Knicks Thread 5/21: Draft prospects

giantsfan44ab : 5/21/2015 9:24 am
After looking at scouting videos, I may have changed my personal take slightly in favor of Mudiay over Russell, but for those who I have been down on Russell, I encourage you to take a look at the the video I posted. There is also a weaknesses video for Russell and for Mudiay as well.

Russell may not be the athlete Mudiay is, but to say he cannot create his own shot is borderline disrespectful. This kid's feel for the game is unreal.

So give me whoever is left on the board, Russell or Mudiay. I think both of them are going to be better players than Okafor and maybe even KAT. The importance of the big man down low is why those two guys are going first, not because of pure talent. They are turning into the QBs of the NBA draft.
D Russell Strengths - ( New Window )
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*isn't living  
giantsfan44ab : 5/21/2015 11:21 am : link
.
RE: If both guards are taken 2 and 3  
yankeeslover : 5/21/2015 11:27 am : link
In comment 12296337 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
We go with Winslow if our management is not live 15 years in the past.

I dont see them passing on Okafor if both guards are gone..no way
im not saying that okafor...  
Italianju : 5/21/2015 11:27 am : link
would give us more then the guys you listed as FA, but he has more upside and wont cost a ton of money. Look i want Monroe and honestly am on the fence with Okafor so i dont want to come off as loving okafor i just think that he is being sold way short.
RE: The league is changing so much  
Jon in NYC : 5/21/2015 11:27 am : link
In comment 12296314 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
look at the best team in the league, they are jump shooting team that plays their best when they are small and they have 6 foot 8 Forward playing Center...

Look at the east: Cavs are playing their best playing small with Thompson at Center...

the league is getting smaller and smaller...


Draymond finished 2nd in DPOY this year. So that 6'8 guy is fucking good at defense.

The Cavs also went out of their way to trade two firsts to bring in Mozgov who has been a big help.
I feel like  
Steve in Greenwich : 5/21/2015 11:28 am : link
too many on here make it seem like a Herculean task for Okafor to turn into anything but Eddy Curry on the defensive end. When I watched him, yea he didn't show great lateral movement or aggressiveness on the defensive end, but I also saw someone who never got in foul trouble whatsoever. Is there any chance that Coach K actively told his best offensive performer that he is more important on the court than on the bench like most other freshman bigs? Plan seemed to work for Duke. Yea, he could have put more effort on D, but that's how freshman get into foul trouble. I may be totally wrong on this, but to act in such absolutes that he one poster is even saying he cant amount to the D level of Al Jefferson just seems foolish.
I agree with you Steve....  
Italianju : 5/21/2015 11:33 am : link
i think Okafor was asked to stay out of foul trouble and when you are playing D with the idea of not getting fouls you are going to look bad. I think okafor can be a an avg defender pretty easily. He will never be good, but if you just read these threads you would think okafor was possibly one of the worst defenders of all time.

Okafor played 300+ more minutes then KAT this season yet commited 34 less fouls. Now im not saying that okafor is anywhere near Towns as a defender, im just saying its obvious that he was asked to be less aggressive.
RE: RE: The league is changing so much  
nygiants16 : 5/21/2015 11:34 am : link
In comment 12296354 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 12296314 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


look at the best team in the league, they are jump shooting team that plays their best when they are small and they have 6 foot 8 Forward playing Center...

Look at the east: Cavs are playing their best playing small with Thompson at Center...

the league is getting smaller and smaller...



Draymond finished 2nd in DPOY this year. So that 6'8 guy is fucking good at defense.

The Cavs also went out of their way to trade two firsts to bring in Mozgov who has been a big help.


Of course he is good at defense but he is not your traditional shot blocker....

and Mozgov has played well but he struggles against guys who can step out and hit the jump shot...

I will bet anything if Warriors go small, Mosgov has toruble and Cavs go small as well...
If Okafor falls to the Knicks  
nygiants16 : 5/21/2015 11:35 am : link
Knicks fans are going to be jumping for joy and forget all about not winning the lottery and falling to 4th...
RE: I feel like  
giantsfan44ab : 5/21/2015 11:43 am : link
In comment 12296355 Steve in Greenwich said:
Quote:
too many on here make it seem like a Herculean task for Okafor to turn into anything but Eddy Curry on the defensive end. When I watched him, yea he didn't show great lateral movement or aggressiveness on the defensive end, but I also saw someone who never got in foul trouble whatsoever. Is there any chance that Coach K actively told his best offensive performer that he is more important on the court than on the bench like most other freshman bigs? Plan seemed to work for Duke. Yea, he could have put more effort on D, but that's how freshman get into foul trouble. I may be totally wrong on this, but to act in such absolutes that he one poster is even saying he cant amount to the D level of Al Jefferson just seems foolish.


I am not saying he won't amount to Al Jefferson defensively, but by the time he does Melo may be long gone. It took Al Jefferson 12+ years to finally fit on a good team defense, and it lasted 1 year. That team also had MKG, Gerald Henderson, Cody Zeller, and Bismack biyombo.

Okafor had Winslow and Amile jefferson to do most of the defensive work so his rim protection was not as important for Duke's success. Please watch this video and fully absorb how atrocious he is at not only team defense, but defensive rebounding as well. If you can't defend you need someone to at least secure defensive boards.

It's one thing to not have a rim protector and have good wing defenders all around you. Its another thing to not have a rim protector, but its a COMPLETELY another thing if your wing defenders are THJR, Jose Calderon and Carmelo Anthony...


Jahlil defense - ( New Window )
Marc Gasol...  
Italianju : 5/21/2015 11:43 am : link
gets all NBA first team. Aldridge gets 2nd team. Man what a get either of them would be for us. And yes i know there is like a 2% chance.
I don't watch colllege  
steve in ky : 5/21/2015 11:48 am : link
so admittedly not an expert and my opinions are based solely on things I can read about prospects so I am not going to begin to act like I know the best approach.

That said since having dropped to #4 I wonder if they wouldn't be better off and trading down a few spots and then taking a player who can help on defense. Not sure who, I have read Justise Winslow is a solid defender that would be available a little lower so maybe someone like him or whomever else might be a good defender available a little lower.

It would be great if the Knicks could swing getting back a first round pick for next year that they currently don't have plus some desperately needed defensive help. Then go after more proven offensive help in the free agent market.
Marc Gasol...  
Italianju : 5/21/2015 11:50 am : link
gets all NBA first team. Aldridge gets 2nd team. Man what a get either of them would be for us. And yes i know there is like a 2% chance.
sorry for the double...  
Italianju : 5/21/2015 11:50 am : link
post..
My take on Aldridge  
giantsfan44ab : 5/21/2015 11:57 am : link
75% chance he stays, 24% chance he goes to the Spurs, 1% chance he goes to the rockets, .5% chance he goes to Dallas, .5% chance he goes to Boston, Washington, or NY.
RE: RE: I feel like  
Steve in Greenwich : 5/21/2015 11:59 am : link
In comment 12296384 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:

Please watch this video and fully absorb how atrocious he is at not only team defense, but defensive rebounding as well. If you can't defend you need someone to at least secure defensive boards.
Jahlil defense - ( New Window )

Just watched the video, and yes watching him his defense is atrocious, but the very first highligted "Post Defense - Has the base and upper body strength to hold his own but doesn't show much toughness. Rarely bodies up. Plays 1-2 feet off his man" You tell me if that sounds like someone who is actively trying not to get into foul trouble. Then you watch the clips with that mindset and it becomes that much clearer. If not, then I'll be damned Coach K lost his mind leaving such a liability on the court all game long.
Another scenario:  
Anakim : 5/21/2015 12:00 pm : link
Okafor goes to Minny (per the rumors), Towns goes to the Lakers, Mudiay or Russell go to the 76ers and we end up with the one they don't choose.


Seems like one thing is for certain: we won't end up with Towns. I can't see him getting past the Lakers. So we're looking at either Okafor, Russell or Mudiay...or Phil can go off the board a bit and go for Winslow or...gulp. Willie Cauley-Stein.
RE: I don't watch colllege  
giantsfan44ab : 5/21/2015 12:03 pm : link
In comment 12296402 steve in ky said:
Quote:
so admittedly not an expert and my opinions are based solely on things I can read about prospects so I am not going to begin to act like I know the best approach.

That said since having dropped to #4 I wonder if they wouldn't be better off and trading down a few spots and then taking a player who can help on defense. Not sure who, I have read Justise Winslow is a solid defender that would be available a little lower so maybe someone like him or whomever else might be a good defender available a little lower.

It would be great if the Knicks could swing getting back a first round pick for next year that they currently don't have plus some desperately needed defensive help. Then go after more proven offensive help in the free agent market.


Can trade out of the pick with Orlando for Kyle O'quinn and Moe Harkless
RE: RE: RE: The league is changing so much  
Jon in NYC : 5/21/2015 12:04 pm : link
In comment 12296372 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 12296354 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 12296314 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


look at the best team in the league, they are jump shooting team that plays their best when they are small and they have 6 foot 8 Forward playing Center...

Look at the east: Cavs are playing their best playing small with Thompson at Center...

the league is getting smaller and smaller...



Draymond finished 2nd in DPOY this year. So that 6'8 guy is fucking good at defense.

The Cavs also went out of their way to trade two firsts to bring in Mozgov who has been a big help.



Of course he is good at defense but he is not your traditional shot blocker....

and Mozgov has played well but he struggles against guys who can step out and hit the jump shot...

I will bet anything if Warriors go small, Mosgov has toruble and Cavs go small as well...


I never said shot blocker. Shot blocking is easily the most overrated stat in the NBA. STAT was a great shot blocker. Tyson wasn't. Who would you rather have controlling the paint?
RE: RE: The okafor hate is...  
EricNY33 : 5/21/2015 12:04 pm : link
In comment 12296307 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 12296297 Italianju said:


Quote:


way too extreme. Does he have to play both PF and C? Cant you put a defensive guy next to him (gasol next to Randolph). Al Jefferson is not a bad NBA player, not sure why the idea that he is Al Jefferson means he is a bum. Jefferson hasnt exactly been on the best of teams which hurts the perception of him. A guy who steps on the court and goes 16 and 9 like you say is a pretty good player. Im fine not getting him, but id be pretty happy to get him.



If you're a center in the NBA and you want to win at any sort of level, you have to play good D. Who is the last championship team that had a poor defensive center?


This is my issue and has been since Day 1. Brook Lopez is a good scorer and probably a better defender than Okafor is, but he only plays D when he wants to.
RE: How does Russell compare to, say, a Mike Conley Jr?  
AnotherGiantsFan : 5/21/2015 12:04 pm : link
In comment 12296069 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
.


I didn't read this thread yet, so I have no idea if I'm just regurgitating here.

I don't see many comparisons between the two. Conley is a much better athlete who is quick and gets to the basket much better. He also has that pesky defense nature about him. D'Angelo is a lot smoother, may actually be a better passer though.

I'm really not a big D'Lo fan and I've maintained that position for months. I think he'll be a good player, but I'd rather risk the pick on a guy with more potential.
RE: RE: RE: The okafor hate is...  
Jon in NYC : 5/21/2015 12:05 pm : link
In comment 12296452 EricNY33 said:
Quote:
In comment 12296307 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 12296297 Italianju said:


Quote:


way too extreme. Does he have to play both PF and C? Cant you put a defensive guy next to him (gasol next to Randolph). Al Jefferson is not a bad NBA player, not sure why the idea that he is Al Jefferson means he is a bum. Jefferson hasnt exactly been on the best of teams which hurts the perception of him. A guy who steps on the court and goes 16 and 9 like you say is a pretty good player. Im fine not getting him, but id be pretty happy to get him.



If you're a center in the NBA and you want to win at any sort of level, you have to play good D. Who is the last championship team that had a poor defensive center?



This is my issue and has been since Day 1. Brook Lopez is a good scorer and probably a better defender than Okafor is, but he only plays D when he wants to.


We've been agreeing a lot recently and it freaks me out.
And I would take  
Jon in NYC : 5/21/2015 12:05 pm : link
Mudiay over Russell as well.
an excerpt  
Steve in Greenwich : 5/21/2015 12:06 pm : link
from Draft Express

Quote:
Okafor's Impact on Duke's Defense

While Okafor is the most prolific and skilled offensive big man in college basketball, his play on the defensive end of the floor doesn't inspire anywhere near the same praise.

SportVU keeps stats on rim protection, which is any instance where the defender is within five feet of the basket and within five feet of the offensive player attempting the shot.

The numbers here suggest that Okafor hasn't been quite as ineffective as he appears to be on film at times. Okafor has been in a rim protection situation 8.8 times per game on average, which is a similar amount to that of his NBA center counterparts we studied in our six player sample. Opposing players have converted 45.5% of those field goal attempts.

There are a number of potential explanations for this. Our 14 game sample includes games against the likes of Presbyterian, Fairfield, Furman, Army, Elon, Toledo and Wofford, some of were huge blowout wins for Duke. At the same time, Duke's home ACC slate included games against Boston College and Pittsburgh, neither of which present imposing frontcourt challenges.

Watching the film, it's clear that when Okafor is operating at full intensity, he is able to make his presence felt with his strong frame, terrific length (wingspan measured between 7-5 and 7-6 in various settings) and solid anticipation skills. He's blocked 28 shots in 19 games so far this season, a decent mark, but his lapses in intensity, average awareness and fundamentals, and seeming unwillingness to be a consistent presence on a full-time basis have been quite glaring at times this year.

Okafor's ability to emerge as a legit rim-protector, as well as his prowess as a pick and roll defender, which we studied closely in the following video, will likely play a huge role in the type of NBA player he ends up developing into.

RE: RE: RE: RE: The okafor hate is...  
EricNY33 : 5/21/2015 12:07 pm : link
In comment 12296456 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 12296452 EricNY33 said:


Quote:


In comment 12296307 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 12296297 Italianju said:


Quote:


way too extreme. Does he have to play both PF and C? Cant you put a defensive guy next to him (gasol next to Randolph). Al Jefferson is not a bad NBA player, not sure why the idea that he is Al Jefferson means he is a bum. Jefferson hasnt exactly been on the best of teams which hurts the perception of him. A guy who steps on the court and goes 16 and 9 like you say is a pretty good player. Im fine not getting him, but id be pretty happy to get him.



If you're a center in the NBA and you want to win at any sort of level, you have to play good D. Who is the last championship team that had a poor defensive center?



This is my issue and has been since Day 1. Brook Lopez is a good scorer and probably a better defender than Okafor is, but he only plays D when he wants to.



We've been agreeing a lot recently and it freaks me out.


You know what they say about great minds... and if you don't you'll get there someday.
RE: RE: How does Russell compare to, say, a Mike Conley Jr?  
EricNY33 : 5/21/2015 12:10 pm : link
In comment 12296454 AnotherGiantsFan said:
Quote:
In comment 12296069 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


.



I didn't read this thread yet, so I have no idea if I'm just regurgitating here.

I don't see many comparisons between the two. Conley is a much better athlete who is quick and gets to the basket much better. He also has that pesky defense nature about him. D'Angelo is a lot smoother, may actually be a better passer though.

I'm really not a big D'Lo fan and I've maintained that position for months. I think he'll be a good player, but I'd rather risk the pick on a guy with more potential.


Like Porzingis?
More like...Super Mario (this pictures going to be fucking huge)  
AnotherGiantsFan : 5/21/2015 12:12 pm : link
Believe and it will happen  
AnotherGiantsFan : 5/21/2015 12:13 pm : link
There are character concerns  
nygiants16 : 5/21/2015 12:14 pm : link
with super mario that teams are going to have to look at...he has al the talent but is his mind on the game...
Which is exactly why we need him  
AnotherGiantsFan : 5/21/2015 12:19 pm : link
Stupid Phil Jackson got rid of all the character concerns on this team. Craziness is built into the fabric of this franchise. Without them, we are nothing.
RE: Which is exactly why we need him  
nygiants16 : 5/21/2015 12:21 pm : link
In comment 12296482 AnotherGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Stupid Phil Jackson got rid of all the character concerns on this team. Craziness is built into the fabric of this franchise. Without them, we are nothing.


Haha i am sure Jackson will find a couple of crazies he thinks he can change...

Dont be surprised if Bynum is given a chance..
Watching these CBA games  
nygiants16 : 5/21/2015 12:26 pm : link
are brutal, there are fouls called on almost every possession....
RE: Which is exactly why we need him  
EricNY33 : 5/21/2015 12:26 pm : link
In comment 12296482 AnotherGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Stupid Phil Jackson got rid of all the character concerns on this team. Craziness is built into the fabric of this franchise. Without them, we are nothing.


I'd be fine with Hezonja OR Porzingis. I've gone on record saying as much. I just know we're not picking one of them. Unless of course we trade down.

I don't want Winslow. I just don't think there's anything special about him. He's a good player and does everything well, but to me, he doesn't do anything great.
RE: Which is exactly why we need him  
EricNY33 : 5/21/2015 12:27 pm : link
In comment 12296482 AnotherGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Stupid Phil Jackson got rid of all the character concerns on this team. Craziness is built into the fabric of this franchise. Without them, we are nothing.


Well... he did coach Dennis Rodman, so I don't think he's too concerned about crazy. He's more concerned about crazy and being a good enough player to deal with the crazy.
Sounds like there is a type of personality they are looking for  
steve in ky : 5/21/2015 12:28 pm : link
Quote:
The Knicks place heavy emphasis on the interview process, feeling character is huge. They have more than a month to sort it out.

Love for competition, thats our biggest need, Knicks coach Derek Fisher said during ESPNs broadcast of the combine. If its the NBA draft, youll find talent no matter what number it is. But its the right talent. Thats really what were looking for, which might be a departure from years in the past. But thats our goal right now.

Link - ( New Window )
Would you guys give Yi a chance?  
nygiants16 : 5/21/2015 12:29 pm : link
he played on the same team with Mudiay and there was talk that he wanted one more chance in the NBA, i know he was a bust may be worth the gamble...
RE: Would you guys give Yi a chance?  
EricNY33 : 5/21/2015 12:32 pm : link
In comment 12296495 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
he played on the same team with Mudiay and there was talk that he wanted one more chance in the NBA, i know he was a bust may be worth the gamble...


Invite him to camp. Why not? There's nothing to lose by doing that.
RE: RE: Would you guys give Yi a chance?  
nygiants16 : 5/21/2015 12:35 pm : link
In comment 12296499 EricNY33 said:
Quote:
In comment 12296495 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


he played on the same team with Mudiay and there was talk that he wanted one more chance in the NBA, i know he was a bust may be worth the gamble...



Invite him to camp. Why not? There's nothing to lose by doing that.


Yeha he would probably want more of a commitment to come probably at least a guaranteed deal...ehh who knows just a thought
Winslow would be close to worst case scenario for me  
AnotherGiantsFan : 5/21/2015 12:36 pm : link
Porzingis would be up there in worst case scenario unless he comes in a package deal with a suitcase of steroids destined for his left ass cheek. He has the physique of an 11 year old boy. I think he's going to have an incredibly hard time gaining weight.
RE: Winslow would be close to worst case scenario for me  
EricNY33 : 5/21/2015 12:44 pm : link
In comment 12296508 AnotherGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Porzingis would be up there in worst case scenario unless he comes in a package deal with a suitcase of steroids destined for his left ass cheek. He has the physique of an 11 year old boy. I think he's going to have an incredibly hard time gaining weight.


Based on what? He's 19. He'll grow into his body. I am not concerned about him getting stronger and gaining weight. Get him on the American diet. He'll get there in no time.
The future  
EricNY33 : 5/21/2015 12:47 pm : link
of the Knicks franchise!!

I can't get into either of the European players because their  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 5/21/2015 12:50 pm : link
floors are absolutely frightening. I love Winslow... he's a winning player, but I don't foresee any scenario in which he would break into the top 4 players.
Watching more and more of Mudiay  
nygiants16 : 5/21/2015 12:51 pm : link
when he breaks down a defense or runs the pick and roll he is much better at kicking it out then either hitting the roll guy or hitting the open big who is standing there...
Porzingas will gain weight and put muscle on his frame  
nygiants16 : 5/21/2015 12:52 pm : link
once he gets put onto an NBA workout regimen, the question is which team is going to take him knowing it is going to take a couple of years...
He's just so ridiculously skinny  
AnotherGiantsFan : 5/21/2015 12:57 pm : link
My only faith in him gaining weight in a reasonable amount of time is if his trainer fixes him an HGH cocktail every night before he goes to sleep and reads him a bed time story.

I really don't think Hezonja's floor is that low. Guys who can hit the 3 are worth their weight in gold in todays NBA.

I think we should settle ourselves down on Mudiay. Just a week ago we were talking about KAT like we were getting the #1 pick. Numb yourself to the pain and stop focusing on a prospect.
What pain?  
nygiants16 : 5/21/2015 12:59 pm : link
Knicks are more than likely getting 1 of Russell or Mudiay...
I guess I'm just not as thrilled with Russell as you are  
AnotherGiantsFan : 5/21/2015 1:04 pm : link
I wouldn't be happy if we came away with D'Lo after this shit show of a season.
RE: I guess I'm just not as thrilled with Russell as you are  
EricNY33 : 5/21/2015 1:05 pm : link
In comment 12296543 AnotherGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I wouldn't be happy if we came away with D'Lo after this shit show of a season.


So then no player we pick is going to excite you. It was Towns or bust.
RE: I guess I'm just not as thrilled with Russell as you are  
nygiants16 : 5/21/2015 1:07 pm : link
In comment 12296543 AnotherGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I wouldn't be happy if we came away with D'Lo after this shit show of a season.


so who are you going to be happy with?

I am not Russell's biggest fan but he does fit the triangle pretty well...I think Mudiay is going to end up the better PG but if it is Russell than thats who it is...

There is a clear top 4 and i will be happy with any of the top 4
Mudiay has the athletic ability to accomplish much more  
AnotherGiantsFan : 5/21/2015 1:08 pm : link
Which excites me. It also excites me that I haven't watch any games of him so I can't pick apart his flaws like I can with D'Lo.

I also think Okafor is an exceptional talent..
well there is that  
nygiants16 : 5/21/2015 1:08 pm : link
Mitchell Abramson ‏@nydnmabramson 3m3 minutes ago
Bill laimbeer just said there's a "giant wall" between Knicks and liberty so Isiah won't have any input with Knicks.

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 3m3 minutes ago
Liberty's Bill Laimbeer on if Isiah will have a future role with the #Knicks: "No way. He's made it clear that that world is non-existent.
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