NFT: Knicks Thread 5/21: Draft prospects

In comment 12297291 Anakim said:

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Where they both went to school aside? Is it possible Russell has a similar career track?

I don't see it. Turner is a good passer but Russell can run point. Turner and Russell or also on complete opposite ends of the shooting ability spectrum. Scouts say shooting is the most translatable skill to the nba.

then Turner was. Although i did not like turner coming out, he was a solid everything but great at nothing player. To be honest i didnt hate him, i just didnt like him as a top 2 pick type player. Russell is a way better offensive player in my opinion.

In comment 12297291 Anakim said:

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Where they both went to school aside? Is it possible Russell has a similar career track?

Totally different players.

that this is a 4 player draft, we have a top 4 pick, and we're going to somehow not end up with one of the top 4?

i think we keep the pick and take whichever of the 4 is left. I know the media desperately wants to make it look like we are trying to trade it but i dont see that at all. You arent getting the caliber of player that Jackson would want for the 4th pick. I know everyhone will say the knicks want to win now but honestly who are we getting for that pick that would be that much better then taking the kid. Rookie guards have stepped in and played very well in recent years.

When they give themselves the opportunity to actually pick young players, they do well for themselves.

I don't really expect them to walk up to the podium, and just crap their pants. They've generally hit on their picks in the past decade.

we have done pretty poorly when picking top 10. Obviously Hill was a horrible pick, Sweetney wasnt great although that was a shitty draft, Frye was ehh although again it wasnt a great draft. and Gallo was fine. We have done when picking outside the top 15, but havent exactly hit homeruns with our high picks. Of course we havent had a pick this high since Ewing.

In comment 12297361 Jon in NYC said:

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that this is a 4 player draft, we have a top 4 pick, and we're going to somehow not end up with one of the top 4?

Yes.

I have 2 fears.

1) Okafor falls to us, we take him and he winds up a bad fit and a bust.

2) Russell or Mudiay are there at 4 and we pass on both for some other guy that Phil is enamored with and thinks is more a "triangle guy" and we miss out on one of the best players in the class.

Russell is the guy I really want. I don't know if that's popular opinion or not, I haven't been too deep in these threads. I am assuming Towns is gone no matter what and it's a crapshoot between the other 3. I would be thrilled if Russell was there at 4.

I think Okafor has the highest bust potential of the big 4. Nice upside but I've seen too many future Dleaguers and guys who won't even make the Dleague make him look bad on defense.

by far the lowest bust potential. His offensive game should make him a solid player at worst. A 15-20 point a game center who plays no D still has value in this league. Mudiay/Russell can easily bust. Russsell could struggle to get by NBA defenders and become just a jump shooter (his shot is not good enough for that) and mudiay is still an unknown. Towns has a low bust rate due to his solid D, but he is not an elite level athlete so there is a chance his D does not translate that well and his offensive game could go either way still. Again i dont think any of them bust, but Okafor to me is the least likely to be a complete bust.

unless they get totally blown away with an offer...

Phil mentioned that if they were 5 he would trade it but at 4 he knows this is a 4 player draft...

He is taking the player that falls to him, i dont think he takes winslow or stein or kaminsky...

I think Russell is the better fit right now at the triangle but i think Mudiay becomes the better PG....Phil has mentioned he wants a slasher, a guy who can get into the lane and create, that describes Mudiay...

There are rumblings that Kat and Okafor are going to refuse to workout for Minnesota hoping they will pass on them...

7 million, 3 million and i believe one for 1.5 million...

those can be valuable to teams that have a bigger contract and have to sign key role players...

a team like the bulls may want that 7 million trade exception for Pau or Gibson so they can sign Butler...

you never know...

is a year we want to conserve all our capspace. Otherwise im sure we can add an extra first later in the round from a team looking to save some money. Maybe once we have used all our capspace we can use it to get a pick next year since we dont have our own.

In comment 12297466 Italianju said:

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is a year we want to conserve all our capspace. Otherwise im sure we can add an extra first later in the round from a team looking to save some money. Maybe once we have used all our capspace we can use it to get a pick next year since we dont have our own.

THye expire july 1st...

crap. So if we use that TPE we would have to really like the guy we were getting. To be honest i doubt id use it on Gibson even if the bulls were willing to do that (which i dont think they would).

In comment 12297479 Italianju said:

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crap. So if we use that TPE we would have to really like the guy we were getting. To be honest i doubt id use it on Gibson even if the bulls were willing to do that (which i dont think they would).

The only reason i mentioned the Bulls is because of their cap situation and having to sign Butler...

Plus they have Mirotic so they have a log jam of big men and if Thibs is gone they may go to a new faster paced system depending on who they bring in....

Maybe Noah becomes available he is a free agent after next year..

In comment 12297437 Italianju said:

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by far the lowest bust potential. His offensive game should make him a solid player at worst. A 15-20 point a game center who plays no D still has value in this league. Mudiay/Russell can easily bust. Russsell could struggle to get by NBA defenders and become just a jump shooter (his shot is not good enough for that) and mudiay is still an unknown. Towns has a low bust rate due to his solid D, but he is not an elite level athlete so there is a chance his D does not translate that well and his offensive game could go either way still. Again i dont think any of them bust, but Okafor to me is the least likely to be a complete bust.

I'd agree with that statement. If all else fails he will still get his points and high FG%. He is Enes Kanter sans the jump shot, which isn't totally great when considering a top 4 talent, but when looking at the floor of guys like Kristaps and Hezonja, Enes Kanter doesn't look so bad.

But considering Kanter is still young and can shoot and is a free agent it sort of beckons the question of whether or not to just sign him and draft Hezonja and Winslow if the two PGs aren't there...

Would you guys consider Kevin Martin for the trade exception? Shit he's still a 20 PPG and his efficiency makes up for his lack of defense and is on a good contract for the production he brings. Of course this is assuming we get a rim protector and not Okafor as to not be a complete joke on defense.

In comment 12297497 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 12297479 Italianju said: Quote: crap. So if we use that TPE we would have to really like the guy we were getting. To be honest i doubt id use it on Gibson even if the bulls were willing to do that (which i dont think they would). The only reason i mentioned the Bulls is because of their cap situation and having to sign Butler... Plus they have Mirotic so they have a log jam of big men and if Thibs is gone they may go to a new faster paced system depending on who they bring in.... Maybe Noah becomes available he is a free agent after next year..

Trade exception + THJR + Early for Gibson? Or maybe Calderon + THJR (this one's a stretch)? Dunleavy, Hinrich and Aaron Brooks are all free agents so they will need to resupply guards if other teams pull those guys away while they are giving Butler the max?

Gibson is the ideal PF. He is a winning player

the goal should be to get a draft pick...if your giving a team cap relief on a contract they do not want anymore you have to be getting a pick back...

The goal should be to get into the late 1st or very early 2nd to pick up an extra asset...

In comment 12297515 giantsfan44ab said:

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In comment 12297497 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 12297479 Italianju said: Quote: crap. So if we use that TPE we would have to really like the guy we were getting. To be honest i doubt id use it on Gibson even if the bulls were willing to do that (which i dont think they would). The only reason i mentioned the Bulls is because of their cap situation and having to sign Butler... Plus they have Mirotic so they have a log jam of big men and if Thibs is gone they may go to a new faster paced system depending on who they bring in.... Maybe Noah becomes available he is a free agent after next year.. Trade exception + THJR + Early for Gibson? Or maybe Calderon + THJR (this one's a stretch)? Dunleavy, Hinrich and Aaron Brooks are all free agents so they will need to resupply guards if other teams pull those guys away while they are giving Butler the max? Gibson is the ideal PF. He is a winning player

Can not package the trade exception with another player...

so for example Knicks traded Prigioni for 2 seconds and then part of a trade exception for Shved...it was two different deals..

for Gibson. I def dont want to start piling on more assets. Again the bulls prolly wont give him away anyway.

Kanter is a RFA and i doubt OKC lets him walk.

He's 19. We don't know whether he will improve but he certainly can. Go back and look at scouting reports for Marc Gasol and you'll see there were questions about his defense too. That doesn't mean that he will become a good defender or not. But it's way to early to say what kind of player he'll be at 25.

In comment 12297542 BeerFridge said:

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He's 19. We don't know whether he will improve but he certainly can. Go back and look at scouting reports for Marc Gasol and you'll see there were questions about his defense too. That doesn't mean that he will become a good defender or not. But it's way to early to say what kind of player he'll be at 25.

Its not just simply his bad defense but he isn't an athlete by any means. You can look at his games against other NBA prospects and he had trouble against other NBA prospects. He didn't make much noise in the later games of the tourney:

Against Utah (Jacob Poetl): 3/6 for 6 points, 8 boards, 4 TOs
Against Gonzaga (witljer): 4/10 9 points 8 boards
Against Wisconsin (Kaminsky): 5/9 10 points 3 boards

At 25 I would hope he still isn't a liability on defense. But he hasn't shown any signs of rim protection skills.

I mean he was getting blown by Kaminsky off the bounce in the championship game. kaminsky is more of a jump shooter since he is slow footed but he had NO issue against Okafor.

player who is that missing 3rd banana in OKC and, if all stay healthy, I think can easily be a top 2 seed in the West.

BUT, OKC is already $13 million over the cap and an offer of $10 million + could be enough to pull him away from them.

Maybe they try getting rid of Waiters, Lamb, Novak, and maybe Perry Jones to clear that $13 million or maybe they bite the bullet with the luxury tax for 1 year before the cap increases, but I say its 50/50 if a large enough offer comes for Kanter. They have Adams, Mcgary, collison, and Ibaka already, and they have played small with the KD at the 4 and have found success so they might see a way of living without Kanter. Plus they can only really play Kanter with Ibaka on the floor.

But I don't see why Kanter wouldn't be a better option than Okafor. He is still young as well, and Okafor's ceiling IS Enes Kanter, and thats assuming Okafor develops a jump shot which is currently non-existent.

Going for Lopez could be riskier, but there is higher reward because even though he isn't a true rim protector, there are times where he keys in on defense and can hold it down.

where he isnt a liability on defense then you should think he is going to be a very good pro. Even those numbers you listed he shot about 50% from the field. And you didnt include the Mich St game where he had 18 on 7/11.

Right now you could argue who has more of a developed post game between the two and Okafor is 3-4 years younger. Okafor has the chance to be an ELITE offensive player, not good, but Elite. Kanter just doesnt have the offensive game that Okafor does. Sure Kanter has a better mid range game, but that is what bigs develop when they get to the NBA, Kanter did not come into the league with a mid range game (if i remember, tough to tell since he barely even played his rookie year).

he was getting doubled every time he touched the ball, that is why Winslow and Tyus Jones had a good tournament, they were getting open looks becuse the defense was so focused on Okafor..

Knicks will get one of the PGs, I think the Knicks are better off Pairing Melo with a perimiter player than another big guy post scorer...

want Mudiay!!!!!!!!!!

In comment 12297614 DanMetroMan said:

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want Mudiay!!!!!!!!!!

That's my preference too.

It's incredibly difficult to win in the NBA without quality guard play. We're not even at average guard play and it kills us and it kills Melo. Osi has made this argument here before and it's worth repeating: Melo needs to be able to play off the ball. It will lengthen his career and he's an excellent mover and finisher.

In comment 12297622 Ash_3 said:

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In comment 12297614 DanMetroMan said: Quote: want Mudiay!!!!!!!!!! That's my preference too. It's incredibly difficult to win in the NBA without quality guard play. We're not even at average guard play and it kills us and it kills Melo. Osi has made this argument here before and it's worth repeating: Melo needs to be able to play off the ball. It will lengthen his career and he's an excellent mover and finisher.

Bringing in Mudiay will allow Melo to play off the ball which would be great...he will become a more efficient scorer playing off the ball and getting catch and shoot oppurtunities...

In comment 12297614 DanMetroMan said:

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want Mudiay!!!!!!!!!!

you know what is going to happen, we are going to get all excited about Mudiay and he is going to kill it in his workouts and he will get drafted by the Lakers or Sixers and Knicks end up with Russell, which is not horrible, but i agree I WANT MUDIAY!!

just like everything I have seen and read about this kid. Hard worker, plus athlete, smart kid.

In comment 12297633 DanMetroMan said:

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just like everything I have seen and read about this kid. Hard worker, plus athlete, smart kid.

And he can't shoot, which makes him Dan's favorite prospect immediately. :-)

Darko and Curtis Borchardt!

In comment 12297587 Italianju said:

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Right now you could argue who has more of a developed post game between the two and Okafor is 3-4 years younger. Okafor has the chance to be an ELITE offensive player, not good, but Elite. Kanter just doesnt have the offensive game that Okafor does. Sure Kanter has a better mid range game, but that is what bigs develop when they get to the NBA, Kanter did not come into the league with a mid range game (if i remember, tough to tell since he barely even played his rookie year).

I didn't include the Michigan St game because he was guarded by a PF (Brandon Dawson) who is 6'8" (thats being generous).

NBA draft net had Kanter's jump shot ranked a 9 and has him higher ranked in terms of athleticism as well.

Again, how many teams rely on a big man to produce in the post? I'd argue that Kanter's versatility makes him a better offensive threat. He averaged 18 and 12. He is a better rebounder, especially on defense. I'd argue his defensive potential is higher than Okafor's given his athletic ability.

Maybe his post potential isn't as high as Okafor's but really how much does the difference between great and elite make in today's NBA of jump shooting? Especially with Melo creating, the less clutter down low the better.

And I meant Okafor won't be a liability on man to man defense, not that he looks to be a rim protector.
Kanter scouting - ( New Window )

In comment 12297635 EricNY33 said:

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In comment 12297633 DanMetroMan said: Quote: just like everything I have seen and read about this kid. Hard worker, plus athlete, smart kid. And he can't shoot, which makes him Dan's favorite prospect immediately. :-)

He actually shot pretty well this season (limited games no doubt) but his form looks pretty solid. I'm all-in on Mudiay.

In comment 12297652 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 12297635 EricNY33 said: Quote: In comment 12297633 DanMetroMan said: Quote: just like everything I have seen and read about this kid. Hard worker, plus athlete, smart kid. And he can't shoot, which makes him Dan's favorite prospect immediately. :-) He actually shot pretty well this season (limited games no doubt) but his form looks pretty solid. I'm all-in on Mudiay.

LOL I was just playin around. I am at work and don't feel like doing a damn thing.

I would be happy with Mudiay as well.

so make sure to mention small sample size. I dont not like Kanter or anythnig, i just think its crazy to say that he is okafor's ceiling. The 26 games in OKC aside he has never lit the world on fire on the rebounding side so i dont see why you think Okafor cant be just as good of a rebounder as he is.

my preference is

towns
Mudiay
Okafor (i keep going back and forth on him and mudiay)
russell

Anybody else feel like Towns is getting a little too much hype? I wanted him and think he is the best player in this draft, but i def dont see him as a generational talent type guy and i feel like he is talked about like he is.

In comment 12297660 Italianju said:

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my preference is towns Mudiay Okafor (i keep going back and forth on him and mudiay) russell Anybody else feel like Towns is getting a little too much hype? I wanted him and think he is the best player in this draft, but i def dont see him as a generational talent type guy and i feel like he is talked about like he is.

I feel the exact same way about Towns. I think he's one of the worst "best prospects" to come around in a while.

In comment 12297660 Italianju said:

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my preference is towns Mudiay Okafor (i keep going back and forth on him and mudiay) russell Anybody else feel like Towns is getting a little too much hype? I wanted him and think he is the best player in this draft, but i def dont see him as a generational talent type guy and i feel like he is talked about like he is.

I think Minnesota is the perfect fit for him because Garnett is there, maybe give him a little bit of mean streak and develop into a very very good 2 way player...

Okafor is someone that 1 minute i think is going to bust or be a 1 way player and then another i am thinking he is going to be a great player...it all depends how hard he works on the defensive end...He has definitely thinned out since the season ended so he is definitely working hard but who knows...

Russell i go back and forth on to, on one hand he is not very athletic or has that quick first step but he is so crafty and has a very smooth jumper that i think he could develop into a good offensive player, defense worries me..

Mudiay he has hte ability to have all the tools, he can pass, drive by people, he is athletic, he is quick, he has defensive potential, his shot is not terrible it definitely needs to be more consistent...I just think when all is said and done he is the best pro...he is the most pro ready in my opinion out of the 4...

think Towns could have gone as low as 4th last year, likely goes #1 in 2013, 2nd in 2012, 2nd in 2011, 2nd in 2010, 2nd in 2009, 2nd in 2008, 3rd or 4th in 2007

I don't think Towns is getting overhyped. I think he's being talked about as the best player in this class. Almost everyone is saying it's going to take some time for him to develop into the player he will most likely become. Nobody is saying he's going to come in and dominate immediately.

In comment 12297673 DanMetroMan said:

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think Towns could have gone as low as 4th last year, likely goes #1 in 2013, 2nd in 2012, 2nd in 2011, 2nd in 2010, 2nd in 2009, 2nd in 2008, 3rd or 4th in 2007

I disagree. I think Towns goes 1st last year too. People forget that Wiggins was hyped as the next LeBron and had a mostly disappointing freshman season at Kansas. Also... Embiid is the clear #1 pick if he doesn't break his foot.

doesn't seem very likely to ever be a franchise player to me. In fact I'd be pretty shocked. In some years the #1 overall is a clear "woah". The Knicks picking 4th sort of sucks but far less than in a year when such a player existed.

all the tools are there for him to be a franchise player. Time will tell.

In comment 12297697 DanMetroMan said:

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doesn't seem very likely to ever be a franchise player to me. In fact I'd be pretty shocked. In some years the #1 overall is a clear "woah". The Knicks picking 4th sort of sucks but far less than in a year when such a player existed.

Towns draws alot of comparisons to Bogut and I don't think thats a terrible one. Bogut was a 16 and 10 guy and held down the fort in Milwaukee. If you consider that "franchise" player, then I think he is. Depends on your definition. I think "cornerstone" is the most appropriate word for him. I think Towns is stronger and might have a more reliable jumper than Bogut.

It all depends on context. If you are Philly or LA and are expecting him to be the face of your franchise, then you may not like your return on investment.

Minnesota is the perfect spot for him. Wiggins is the clear face of the franchise, and Lavine has all kind of potential. Then you've got some good guys like Rubio, Shabazz, and Dieng and it looks like you have something.

I agree, if he went last year I think he goes #3 or 4. Philly would give some hesitation but I think their philosophy of getting higher potential guys may still lead them to Embiid. But Towns is in that talent group just under parker and wiggins, I think hes a far and away better prospect than Gordon, Smart and Exum if he went last year.

or Parker and it would be close with Embiid but only due to the injury. I thought Embiid was way more impressive last year then Towns was this year.