Was on nfl.com and they projected the depth charts of the NFC West. They just looked loaded with talent compared to the Giants. Then I rewatched the STL game from last year, OBJ just shined in this game, as did Eli and Randle. But the STL front on both sides was just stoning the Giants. They looked outmatched.
The Giants do have Eli Manning which I think is something of an equalizer. It just feels like it will be such a uphill battle for the Giants with slim room for error this coming season. Marginal starting talent in key areas, rookies counted on to compete and start, almost no depth.
How do you feel about the upcoming roster for this season? Pleased? Expecting a cluster**k?
Health is and will continue to be my biggest fear..If reasonable, we can compete with anyone imo
Right, being most injured team in the league the last two years and in the bottom 25% before that is just like "other teams" What crap.
We'll NEVER agree on this of course, but leading the league in injuries and losing a bunch of key cogs most definitely was a pretty big factor in derailing any reasonable chance to make a playoff run, imo..This "every team has injuries" mantra is old, is tiresome and doesn't honestly address our particular injury problems..But carry on..
There were many games in both years where we either ran out of gas because we were playing our reserves with little depth behind them pr couldn't execute key moving the chains plays that would have easily turned defeat into victory imo..
So yes..There is very little that can turn a 6 win team into a 10 win team..We see it throughout the league..
We will continue to disagree so let's not bother, in this case, citing the same arguments that go absolutely nowhere between us..
The OL is unsettled because of Beatty's injury. We have John Jerry and Marshall Newhouse who are journeymen at best; Brett Jones, who's unproven; Bobby Hart, a lead- footed rookie; and Joe Herman, who knows how good he is when he's not juiced and Dallas Reynolds, a career back-up and Brandon Mosley, who has never done anything
The vet TEs are terrible. Donnell, who by some accounts is the worst blocking TE in the NFL and a fumbler. He starts over the other TEs and that tells us how awful the other TEs are.
Who knows about Cruz? Steve Smith was never the same, nor was Domenik Hixon; and, of course, Hakeem Nicks. If Cruz is unfortunately a shadow of himself, then who plays Slot Receiver,
Who plays DE opposite JOP? Who knows?
Beason is always hurt and McClain is so-so atLB.
Who playsSafety? Cooper Taylor cannot stay on the field; Berhe is a little guy; John Gordy is a journeyman; and Collins and Thompson are rookies.
But what line was that? Te one with the rookie playing out of position at one guard and a backup coming off surgery playing the other?
We may have the tools now to get tougher and more physical, but until we do, we won't seriously compete with the Seahawks (and maybe not the Cowboys).
The OL is unsettled because of Beatty's injury. We have John Jerry and Marshall Newhouse who are journeymen at best; Brett Jones, who's unproven; Bobby Hart, a lead- footed rookie; and Joe Herman, who knows how good he is when he's not juiced and Dallas Reynolds, a career back-up and Brandon Mosley, who has never done anything
The vet TEs are terrible. Donnell, who by some accounts is the worst blocking TE in the NFL and a fumbler. He starts over the other TEs and that tells us how awful the other TEs are.
Who knows about Cruz? Steve Smith was never the same, nor was Domenik Hixon; and, of course, Hakeem Nicks. If Cruz is unfortunately a shadow of himself, then who plays Slot Receiver,
Who plays DE opposite JOP? Who knows?
Beason is always hurt and McClain is so-so atLB.
Who playsSafety? Cooper Taylor cannot stay on the field; Berhe is a little guy; John Gordy is a journeyman; and Collins and Thompson are rookies.
Just glass half empty stuff. The OL has enough depth to deal with the Beatty injury. Donnell is a talented receiver at TE and can improve as a blocker. The opposite would be a bigger problem. Cruz could be fine and isn't the only player who can fill in at WR. They have Randle, Harris(s), etc. Ayers, Selve and Wynn are competing at LDE which is solid talent. Beason isn't hurt now and has as good a chance as anyone to stay that way. They have a couple of good choices at safety to go with Collins.
Agreed. Look at how bad we've been running the ball, and defending the run. And now Dallas has a monster OL, and we lost Beatty. As far as the talent is concerned, we may have it, but it's unproven. There is a lot of inexperience on the roster at many positions.
No, Eric, the reasons matter. It's one thing not to have the talent. It's another to have the talent and not be able to put it on the field. It may not seem so with this team, but guys do get healthy. Schwartz, Jennings, Jenkins, Ayers, Cruz, Beason, Prince, McBride. Are they still "soft" if all of these guys are on the field healthy?
Injuries don't "tend" to happen. They happen or they don't. They happen to some teams and not others. This team healthy was competitive last year. Competitive for the SB, no. Competitive for a wildcard, yes. (And I said competitive not a lock.)
This team doesn't kick anybody's ass on the LOS.
They haven't been to the playoffs in three seasons and have just two playoff appearances in the seven seasons since the 2007 Championship in the first year of the Reese era.
In that time span they have an extremely poor record with players drafted after the second round.
Every year their roster is loaded with guys who couldn't make it with other NFL teams, or who those teams didn't value enough to keep.
And they have gone from a team who was getting comp picks every year to a team who doesn't get any comp picks because they are signing more guys than they are losing to other teams.
Every time anybody does a Top 100 players in the NFL or something like that, including polling the players to see what they think of their peers, maybe one or two GIANTS make the list and they are down near the bottom. Very few of their players are widely seen as real stars.
Parcells said you are what your record says you are. And despite a head coach that will get some serious consideration for Canton, the GIANTS record in recent years shows that this is no longer a winning team. So there is an obvious talent shortcoming.
Measuring Talent is like the chicken and egg story.
If we win.....we have enough talent. If we lose....we don't.
Our OL in 2007 and 2010 is now considered the good old days.....but they were pushed around like a rag doll and weak....before Mackenzie got here. Diehl was barely passable LT......but after we won. Diehl is our hero until we started losing and he became a turnstile.
Eli is top 20 prior to 2007......then became top 6 during his super bowl mvp years......now he is top 20 again.
This team can win. If we go from 6-10 to 10-6......we become more talented. Get more pro-bowlers, more top 100.
Soft vs health. IMO They are interrelated. If your opponent is stronger/more physical, you are more apt to end up off balance and your body put in a position it was not intended to go. This may account for NYG high number of injuries.
As many have said football is tough game, injuries happen (Prince reaching out to make a play; tearing bicep) & sometimes it's bad luck (McBride with his thumb). But than NYG should be within league norm, not having the highest # of players on IR 2 years in a row.
IIRC TC mentioned at his end of the year press conference, the team as a whole needs to get stronger. Told the team, they needed to start strength & conditioning workouts on their own. They shouldn't be waiting until organized team activities. Hopefully the players listened. If as a team, they become the pushers instead of the pushees, imo you will see the number of injuries go down.
chris r : 9:34 am : link : reply
if you can't do that, you're not very good. Certainly injuries the last few years aren't what prevented us from being a 10 or 11 win team.
It has been shown that over the past 25 years injuries and overall health have been a determining factor in success or failure.
In 25 years, there have only been 2SB's that did not have a team in the Top 5 of good health participating. On the flip side, there have only been 4 SB's with teams from the bottom 5 of "bad health" playing.
Saying that other teams get hurt and win is a falsehood when taken in context.
(1) Franchise QB
(2) Dangerous WR corps
(3) Not spectacular but solid and well-rounded backfield.
(4) Up-and-coming receiving TE (I'm a fan of Donnell)
(5) Improving OL (though the Beatty injury hurts)
(6) Improving DL that potentially could be very good.
(7) Improving LB corps (fan of Kennard, think J.T. Thomas/Casillas will add speed to weakside spot)
(8) One of best CB duos...very young safeties but they have ability.
(9) Solid kickers and returner.
However, the inimitable Bill T is still missing the larger picture on Dallas. Even losing Murray, I say they are better now than last year. And you have not been paying attention to receivers like Beasley and Williams and TEs like Escobar & Hannah. Oh and on defense, Hardy, Gregory and a corner, plus they resigned Scandrick, whom they consider to be their best DB. So I am waiting for the part where they killed because of their cap number. But such is to digress. The answer is "no ."
On this subject Mook you and I will never agree also and that is fine..Personally, I'm not talking about Beason..I'm talking about DRC(yes the record shows he played in lots of games, but we both know he was effectively on one leg..We lost Prince for most of the year(that takes a toll, season-wise, even if, for the few games he played, he and/or we sucked..Let's forget Will Hill, that wasn't injury related..But even our young S depth(Cooper Taylor was lost) was non-existent..We lost our slot corner for the year, then McBride for the year..
But our LBs stunk in general. I had high hopes for JW..Kennard looks promising, do we'll see..
On O, regardless of what you think of him, we effectively lost our best RB for the year..Pugh, for most of the year played(gallantly, but ineffectively) with one arm..Schwartz was lost also effectively for the year..That's TWO key OL starters..
Cruz was lost for the season in game 6(3-2 going into that game), OBJ didn't make an appearance until a game 5...Are you people kidding me? No way Philly or Dallas win 10 games with similar type hits..
Oh and field position suffered a bunch with a game but 1-legged Weatherford..
No question
Disagree about the wording "that's WHY(my emphasis).." Partly true, but also weighted with the injury factor as I've stated..
I have no idea why you and I ever address each other on THIS TOPIC, we will never, ever agree..So I'll try to not address you on this(only this) for it's fruitless for both of us..We are so far apart in our opinions on this, why do we even bother? :)
Agreed..I like Beatty, but wouldn't it be something if we actually performed better without him?
They are everyone's favorite right now. Their OL should be stronger, but what about their running game? They did lose one of their key coaches. Their defense - which was supposed to be dreadful in 2014 - played far better than expectations. They lost some members but get one of their key players back off of injury. Some in Dallas think losing Harris is really going to hurt them on specials.
I fear Dallas the most in the division, but I could see them going either way. Much depends on Romo and his back.
Otherwise, we're just hunky dory.
Second, our recent talent is in the wrong places (IMO). I believe your lines need to be were the top of the talent level is, and in our case its not. We have good skills positions and nice DBs when healthy.
Patterson...perhaps...but teams with "great" OL's haven't had a lot of Super Bowl success in recent years. Seems to me the QB, skill positions, and defense have been more important.
The thing about Beatty that stings is that he was a adequately stable player in an area that has been weak the past few years. The shock of his injury aside, it's possible that Beatty's presence was not going to be a panacea, and that his loss may be a blessing to the team chemistry. If Pugh and Flowers are manning the ends, Richburg the Center and Schwartz is on the Right side, then it's possible that one of the other 5 or 6 hands on deck could step up and become a reasonably good Left guard. If Flowers is for real, all we need is reasonably good, and if Flowers can inspire the troops to become tougher (his type of attitude, along with a battering ram like Williams, is generally infectious to offensive lineman) then you have the following exciting elements to savor:
Eli Manning
In my estimation Eli Manning is still the most exciting player on the NY Giants. Ever since he’s stepped on the field I have gotten the sense that the Giants are for real and they always have a chance to win. Eli is a playmaker and a consummate professional. He always seems prepared to play when he’s out there, no matter what the circumstances. He has not only taken the Giants on two magical runs, but he has managed to have a string of exciting games in every season he has played. I believe his best is still yet to come, that he has a couple more playoff runs in him, and I thank god every day that he is a NY Giant.
Odel Beckham Jr
OBJ is a sensation, a wide receiver on a level that we have never before seen on the NY Giants. He has mad game changing ability and talent, and is a touchdown or first down waiting to happen on every play when he’s out in the field. He’s got the sizzle, the desire, and an amazing skill set to match, and with Eli Manning to throw to him, he’s got everything going for him.
Shane Vereen
Shane Vereen is a missing piece that the Giants added this year. He can catch. He can block, and he can carry the rock and make tough yards. He’s a missing piece because the Giants Offensive Playbook under Coach MacAdoo requires use of the screen pass, and Shane Vereen is going to give the Giants both a strong screen pass option and a gamer, a new dimension that they haven’t had in the past. He’s proven under fire that he can produce when the game is on the line.
Larry Donnell
Larry Donnell is hard working big pass catching option that lumbers up the seam. He typifies the blue lunch pail player that has been part and parcel of the NY Giants success in their long and storied tradition. This year he will show up to work after having a full season under his belt where he flashed star potential and a hunger to prove that he can be the #1 NY Giants tight end option. This is a guy that makes the tough catches and last year, just needed to learn how to land on the ground while holding the ball. You can be sure that he’s spent the entire off-season perfecting that skill. Never mind Ruben Randle and Victor Cruz. This pass catcher is even more important. There’s seven (7) potent potential passing options on third downs for the Giants: Beckham, Randle, Cruz, Vereen, Jennings, Harris and Donnell. That is an awesome set of pass options, and you can’t even have all of them on the field at the same time. Larry Donnell is why Cruz is not a critical part of the puzzle, but a luxury we hope will eventually return.
Ereck Flowers
Ereck Flowers is a Giant, plain and simple. A big powerful man with a nasty streak, that is going to fire up the offensive line. This is the kind of play that is infectious to other offensive linemen. The NY Giants offensive line has had strong pieces added over the past three years. Even with a consistent piece of the line like Beatty going down in the off season, the Giants could still pull off a decent line if 1 out of 5 candidates can steep up and be a guard; the Giants drafted 3 premium pieces to add to the line in Pugh, Richburg, and now Flowers; Flowers is the crown jewel to this group. He is already turning heads on the big blue lunch bucket crew. This is more big time pieces than this offensive line has had in some time. The addition of Flowers and another hungry player could assist Eli Manning in pass protection, which has not been a strong point of the line for the past three seasons - even with Beatty's presence. Even more importantly, it should assist the NY Giants in establishing a power run game, and a screen game, both of which they must establish to have a dominant offense. One side of the line is certainly going to have the pieces -- at a minimum the other side will have a plug.
Andre Williams
Andre Williams is a muscle-ripped, true power runner. He has shown that if you can give him a hole he will power through it. What has he been missing? He’s been missing a cohesive offensive line to run behind. Guess what, this year he’s got it, and he’s going to be a battering ram runner for us. He has demonstrated production at the college level on a team with no pass attack, and he has been patiently developing on the NFL level, this year the Giants will give him an intact Right side of the Offensive line, with some burly pieces, he is going to burst through that side, and onto the scene and become a 1,000 yard running back for us. With this kind of support he’s going to win the hard yards, and the goal line surges, bursting through with the needed yards.
Dwayne Harris
Dwayne Harris is an NFL proven, multipronged threat for the NY Giants. He’s a power hitter, a decisive runner, and he’s got great hands. He’s not just a kick returner, he’s a third down threat, both in the screen and passing game. Put this guy on the field and he’s a T-Bone Playa! He’s under rated by most around here, but I’ve got a news flash for you, this guy is gonna make things happen. He’s got that X-Factor that is going to send exciting ripples through the Giants’ offense and special teams.
Jonathan Hankins
When you pair a 6’4” 346 lb Kendrick Ellis with a 6’ 2’ 320 lb player like Jonathan Hankins, you have clogged the middle of the field, and with his demonstrated toughness and athleticism, he becomes a new facet to the pass rushing threat of the Giants’ defensive line. Never mind the rest of the line, Ellis is going to free Hankins up, and that will make him a disruptive force on the Defensive front line. Steve Spagnuola is going to utilize these two, to create a weapon we’ve never seen before coming out of the center of the defense, Hankins is going to plunder the opposition all season long.
Jason Pierre-Paul
JPP is in the best shape he’s ever been since joining the Giants. In fact he drove up to voluntary camp just to show it off. The Giants made the right choice this year. They asked JPP to prove it when they tagged him with the Franchise tag, and he is going to prove it. He is the most athletic, most dynamic player on the Defensive line. He was a big part of the forest that mystified Tom Brady in the 2012 Superbowl, and he is out to prove that he is a force deserving of a $100 million contract. With Steve Spagnuola promoting an aggressive Defense this year, and with his Giant size, strength, invigorated explosive power, and extra long reach, look to JPP to be a stand out, and a disruptive force this year. He will be positioned at multiple places on the defensive line this year to test the opposing personnel.
Landon Collins
Landon Collins is probably one of the most under-rated player ever coming out of a draft. He was a top 10 talent in the draft in my book this year. This guy is a pure footballer. He’s fierce, he’s disruptive, he’s got vast range, he’s versatile, and he lays the wood. Forget about the box player label everyone in the press and the NFL has been labeling him with, this guy is the missing link in stopping the run that the Giants haven’t had in the past two years, and mark my words, he’s going to become the leader of the defense.
Owa O-diggy-zu-wa
I don’t expect Owa to be a starter this year, but he’s an amazing physical specimen that is going to make a number of explosive appearances this year. He’s going to show us flashes of his amazing potential and sizzle. He’s going to impact special teams, and he’s going to play a bit role on the line that absolutely disrupts the game. This is not a Damontre Moore third round project. This is a much more intelligent and gifted athlete with a will to be on the field and to be effective. This kid is going to fire both the Defense and Special Teams up, when he’s on the field. He will add another dimension to the forest that mystifies Tom Brady on the D-Line.
Devon Kennard
One of the real treats last year was the sparks flying out of Devon Kennard. It’s been a long time since the Giants drafted or signed a rookie Linebacker that is so fierce and physical and provides leadership as well as a spark in the midfield. He plays aggressive and wraps up, and I think his style will well suit the Spagnuola defense. This guy also intelligent and has a good shot at becoming our Middle linebacker of the future.
DRC/Amukamara
I have these two listed as one guy, because not withstanding anything to the contrary, these two cornerbacks are both great players and excel in pass coverage. The issues in the backfield has boiled down to two things: can Truman McBride play at a high level all season at the slot position, and can these two stay healthy, if they can, in concert with the invigorated D-line, and the new defensive management, the Giants will have not just a good defense, but a great defense.
Let me add three bonus names into the above mix that makes it even more exciting:
Tom Coughlin, supported by Ben MacAdoo and Steve Spagnuola the Offensive and Defensive Coordinators
In a league with parity, great coaching makes a difference. This is the first year, going into a season, where in addition to Tom Coughlin’s amazingly detailed game planning and leadership skills, I feel two power surges, calling the shots on both the offense and the defense. I am going to say it right here, and right now, these are the two best coordinators Tom Coughlin has ever hired. He pulled both of them from obscurity to the forefront of football, and they, and Tom, are going to form one of the great coaching trios in football. I believe this, and I think the Giants personnel as currently made up will add fuel to start fires with, on all cylinders.
What's noteworthy really are the names that are not on the list above - like Jon Beason, Ahmad Rashad, Victor Cruz, Ruben Randle, Jay Bromley, Henry Hynoski, George Selvie, Robert Ayres, Steve Weatherford, Damontre Moore, Trumaine McBride and Kerry Wynn
Then the last three drafted in the 2015 draft along with the 8 UDFA's - that would be 20 more players that might rise up --- if you take Jordan Raanan's 30% rule - 7 or 8 of these guys are going to step up and sizzle for us - 13 exciting players becomes 20-21 talented players in that scenario....
I'm not saying it won't all collapse - Will Beatty's injury is a reminder of just how fragile everything really is -- but this fragility is a constant across the NFL - the fat is the Giants have as talented a group and the potential to add to it as they've had in some time - and at least for now -- it's too early to throw the towel in and say all is lost, and I say with certainty that the Giants as composed right now certainly do not lack talent overall !
Anyway That’s my story and I’m Sticking to it. Go GiantS!!!
week one is big mistake.
Atlanta
Minnesota
Tampa Bay
Washington
That's all I've got. Indicates a lack of talent.
OL: Pugh, Flowers, Schwartz, Richburg
DL : Ellis, Moore, Hankins, hopefully OO
WR: OBJ
DB: Collins, DRC, and I still hold out hope for Taylor
RB: Jennings, Williams
Even LB: Kennard, McClain, Beason
There is no reason we can't win the East.
My guess is Dallas is still the best team in the division. But would anyone really be shocked if they took a step back this year? Teams have trouble repeating in the NFC East.
Completely honored to be mentioned but let's look at "TEs like Escobar & Hannah." Escobar had 9 receptions in 2014 just like he did in 2013 and Hannah in his 3rd year had 4. As far as WR "Beasley and Williams" together had about as many receptions and yards as Randle did alone. Dallas hype.
Defensively we got better in the draft and we will be improved up front, however, our LB corps is average at best and our talent at safety is unproven although I love Collins. Feel good about Prince and DRC. Specials are a question as usual. Brown has been good, but I'm not sold that he's a top notch kicker.
We may have talent to compete, but this club has not shown the ability to overcome difficult situations in 3 seasons. When things get though trecent TC teams collapse. I'm not convinced it won't happen again.
As you said about Romo, his back could easily break down..As great as the line tor him was, he took a tremendous beating throughout the year(some of it was on him and not the OL)...
They were thisclose to the NFC title game and I believe, even with their impressive additions on paper, complacency might easily set in..
Eric -- I like it -- but you're stating to scare the cr@p out of me. : )
Go Giants!!
Yeah Baby!!
For you, it should be no thinking.
So, it is up to the GM to make sure that the team has QUALITY depth so that when someone goes down, we have a replacement who can hold his own. Does not have to be a superstar but cannot be a liability. That is the difference.
Regarding the talent question originally proposed. We have two players on offense (Eli and OBJ) and one player on defense (JPP). Of course you can add Cruz but only if he fully recovers. So, right now he is not the asset he once was. We also have a pretty good punter. The rest of the team is average or below. However, I really hope that after this season we can add Cruz, Richburg and Collins to the list.
Rich Houston-NYG-WR-1971 : 5/23/2015 5:07 pm : link : reply
Long. I think Cruz should take a year off. I think him being ready ready
week one is big mistake.
Having OLmen take up space on the bench, that you have no confidence in, has to end.....can't we get another "Boothe"?
That adds up over the course of the game and season. The more reserve guys you are starting, the worse the effect gets.
It's impossible to know exactly how many wins & losses injuries will account for but it is significant, IMO.
There is no team that can have a good backup for every position......
When you think of Boothe being able to come in and help that 2011 team, that was huge.....Reese took that element away from this team by counting on him as starter, which he wasn't....he was much more valuable as a versatile backup....who was our "Boothe" last year? Who will it be this year?
I would like to see Reese without a TC and staff in the future to assess his worth to the organization. Suspect we could be much better and in the post season more often.
There is no team that can have a good backup for every position......
When you think of Boothe being able to come in and help that 2011 team, that was huge.....Reese took that element away from this team by counting on him as starter, which he wasn't....he was much more valuable as a versatile backup....who was our "Boothe" last year? Who will it be this year?
And you might be missing an even bigger point: What happens when the quality depth is injured? Look back and see how many those have been..THAT has been problematical as well, no?
You end up signing players off the street, like we did in 2005...
Quote:
but that tends to happen when in the past your drafts have sucked. Add injuries and bad coaching at times, and you get a shit show. We need our recent draft classes to be productive and hope that the injury bug can leave us. Spags and Ben M. give me hope that both systems can be good for us.
Injuries don't "tend" to happen. They happen or they don't. They happen to some teams and not others. This team healthy was competitive last year. Competitive for the SB, no. Competitive for a wildcard, yes. (And I said competitive not a lock.)
"Do you think the Giants lack talent overall?"
The tend I was referring to was the general question posted by Jim. I said yes, in reference to we do lack overall talent, and that tends to happen when your drafts have sucked. As for injuries, yes they happen or they don't, and it seems in our case the injury bug does occur with our team and impacted us this past season.
However, I don't think this team would have been competitive for a WC. I don't think our team was that good at all, I am assuming a healthy team, like you mentioned. New system on offense and Fewells system would have been two critical areas I would have loved to see with a healthy team. Who knows maybe you would be correct and we would be competitive for a WC. I just don't see it.
You end up signing players off the street, like we did in 2005...
That's my point..
I would like to see Reese without a TC and staff in the future to assess his worth to the organization. Suspect we could be much better and in the post season more often.
I am as rabid about the coaching staff's development of players as I am about Reese's risky draft picks --
If you're going to knock them -- you also have to give them credit for making something out of nothing -- like Jake Ballard, Kevin Boss, and Larry Donnell
How about Victor Cruz -- UDFA?
How about Henry Hynoski --UDFA?
How about Kerry Wynn -- UDFA?
How about Chase Blackburn --- UDFA?
How about James Butler -- UDFA ?
by the way -- the list goes on of players they made into something -- who were nothing.
What -- how can it be UDFA's that make the team with coaches that can;t coach??
You want to knock them for not developing Robinson, who has the talent but no brain - Marvin Austin who was a high risk pick -- or for failing the 2012 draft -- which was widely a back draft for most teams -- and a draft were the Giants had the last pick in each round -- knock them for Barden who had oodles of talent but no discipline?
How the heck could this coaching staff ever even win a super bowl if it sux so bad in the player development department???
Saying we don't get anything out of players nobody has heard of right below a post that shows we do is about as moronic as one can get.
We just need Eli to get to thenplayoffs..:)