about finding a defensive big, yet leaves out the quotes where Phil constantly mentions finding a player that can get into the lane and break down a defense...
Shit Phil mentioned it again on Twitter the other day mentioning how the Knicks need to find a player qho can break down a defense and get into the lane..
Defense translates to the NBA if nothing else does. And he will be better than Tyson defensively because he can guard literally every position on the floor.
That being said, I would not pick him at 4 and would rather trade down to get him if we really wanted him.
I don't think that would be likely because Sacramento would not pass on him if he feel to them. He fits perfectly with Boogie as he can guard the perimeter and rim protect.
Phil made a comment in the weeks before the lottery
that led me to think WCS was high on his radar. Predicted WCS as our pick in the lottery thread. I would hate it, but the Knicks give me nothing but agita.
Defense translates to the NBA if nothing else does. And he will be better than Tyson defensively because he can guard literally every position on the floor.
That being said, I would not pick him at 4 and would rather trade down to get him if we really wanted him.
I don't think that would be likely because Sacramento would not pass on him if he feel to them. He fits perfectly with Boogie as he can guard the perimeter and rim protect.
WCS can not defend guards. He may be able to protect the basket on their drives but players like Westbrook, Curry, Paul, Lebron, Harden would eat him up.
We know for sure his defense will translate to NBA well. Get Monroe at the 4 and that's a good start. The question is how far can you trade down and what do you get for the trade down? What makes it more difficult is I think the Knicks have to draft a player at 4 then hope the team that wants him can draft Caukey stein before someone else picks him.
Let's say the Kings want mudiay and are willing to trade up to get him, what does trading down from 4 to 6 get you? Seems like Orlando would be more interested in Cauley stein then mudiay given that they don't need a pg. they could play willie at the 4. So is Phil going to risk the player that he really wants to pick up a few second rd picks? I don't think so I think this article may be spot on and I think I will be ok with it l, I was never that high on okafor or KAT. What will be interesting is if okafor and willie are both there at 4, what would Phil do.
for sure that his defense will translate to the NBA?
He struggles against guards who can penetrate and often struggled against powerful big men.
Seems to me that covers a pretty large swath of players he'd encounter in the NBA.
You'd be talking about drafting at #4 a guy who at best will be a solid defender with poor offensive skills and at worst will mediocre to poor in both areas.
Defense translates to the NBA if nothing else does. And he will be better than Tyson defensively because he can guard literally every position on the floor.
That being said, I would not pick him at 4 and would rather trade down to get him if we really wanted him.
I don't think that would be likely because Sacramento would not pass on him if he feel to them. He fits perfectly with Boogie as he can guard the perimeter and rim protect.
WCS can not defend guards. He may be able to protect the basket on their drives but players like Westbrook, Curry, Paul, Lebron, Harden would eat him up.
Watch this video and tell me he cannot defend guards. By that comment I'm assuming you did not watch kentucky much this year. I'm not blaming you for it but one of his unique skills as a 7 foot big is how laterally quick is.
By "guarding every position", I did not literally mean he was going to be put on the best wing player on the opposing team. But in PnR and PnP switches, big men are occasionally put on guards. Terrence Jones and Dwight Howard were frequently switched onto Curry last night. I'm saying that WCS will become one of the few bigs, if not the only one, that won't get eaten alive every time he is switched onto a wing. WCS - ( New Window )
I really like WCS as an NBA prospect. His floor is really high, even
for sure that his defense will translate to the NBA?
He struggles against guards who can penetrate and often struggled against powerful big men.
Seems to me that covers a pretty large swath of players he'd encounter in the NBA.
You'd be talking about drafting at #4 a guy who at best will be a solid defender with poor offensive skills and at worst will mediocre to poor in both areas.
At #4?
"Cauley-Stein is a player who is both extremely gifted from a measurements standpoint, but also in terms of athleticism ... At the Kentucky Combine he measured 7.25 in shoes, with a 72 wingspan, and a great 92 standing reach ... He also is extremely nimble, and an explosive and quick leaper ... Willie also has tremendous defensive abilities, excelling at hedging on pick and rolls, as well as protecting the rim ... Hes seen a dip in shot blocking numbers due to his use as a pick and roll defender, and Karl Anthony Towns being used as the primary paint enforcer, but as a sophomore WCS blocked 2.9 shots per game as Kentuckys primary rim protector ... His physical tools should allow these elite defensive traits to translate to the NBA level ... Cauley-Stein has the potential to be able to guard NBA wing positions at a high level, at least early in his NBA career ... " WCS Scouting Report - ( New Window )
for sure that his defense will translate to the NBA?
He struggles against guards who can penetrate and often struggled against powerful big men.
Seems to me that covers a pretty large swath of players he'd encounter in the NBA.
You'd be talking about drafting at #4 a guy who at best will be a solid defender with poor offensive skills and at worst will mediocre to poor in both areas.
At #4?
When the hell did I say #4? I explicitly said I would NOT take him at #4...
for sure that his defense will translate to the NBA?
He struggles against guards who can penetrate and often struggled against powerful big men.
Seems to me that covers a pretty large swath of players he'd encounter in the NBA.
You'd be talking about drafting at #4 a guy who at best will be a solid defender with poor offensive skills and at worst will mediocre to poor in both areas.
At #4?
"Cauley-Stein is a player who is both extremely gifted from a measurements standpoint, but also in terms of athleticism ... At the Kentucky Combine he measured 7.25 in shoes, with a 72 wingspan, and a great 92 standing reach ... He also is extremely nimble, and an explosive and quick leaper ... Willie also has tremendous defensive abilities, excelling at hedging on pick and rolls, as well as protecting the rim ... Hes seen a dip in shot blocking numbers due to his use as a pick and roll defender, and Karl Anthony Towns being used as the primary paint enforcer, but as a sophomore WCS blocked 2.9 shots per game as Kentuckys primary rim protector ... His physical tools should allow these elite defensive traits to translate to the NBA level ... Cauley-Stein has the potential to be able to guard NBA wing positions at a high level, at least early in his NBA career ... " WCS Scouting Report - ( New Window )
I am jsut cautioning you. The college game, IMO, has declined as far as player development therefore the product has suffered.
I am not going to say he is going to be a bad defender, but just because he dominated college basketball (and I watched a lot of basketball) doesnt necessarily mean he will in the NBA. They are different stratospheres as far as skill is concerned.
A lot of sportswriters assume that because Phil made some mistakes...
--unlike the zen master he was assumed to be before he seemingly became stupid, ignorant or lazy, he is going to show the press all of his cards so that other teams can predict exactly what he is going to do and adjust accordingly.
Sorry, I don't think he's that stupid, and I doubt very much that he has showed his full hand to anyone, either about the draft or about how he is going to play free agency.
In terms of Mudiay v s Cauley-Stein, of course he knows that most of the rest of the league sees the latter as 6th, 7th or 8th best in this year's draft, and of course he knows that he cannot afford to get less than maximum value this year. If he wants Cauley-Stein that much, which is only the case if this writer's tea leaves properly read what Jackson is thinking, not what he is saying, he will try very hard to trade down to do it. Meanwhile, he will certainly have more interviews and tryouts with Mudiay before writing off the possibility of taking him where most of the world expects him to go.
Aside from the draft, I still think that there is a decent chance that in FA he tries to convince a couple of high-caliber players to take reduced salaries in a one year contract with a player option, in exchange for getting part of the cap increase on a longer contract next year. This could be a win-win-win for any player who really wants to come to NY, and some do. Leaves more cap room to build a higher quality team, protects the player, and allows the player to get an extra year on a contract net year. Has he said so? No. So what?
will be a nice player, but he's a complimentary player. He isn't someone to build your team around like Mudiay or Russell.
^This
He goes to a team like Orlando or Sacramento that has great offensive talent already established and needs a defensive presence.
You could argue we would need that if we got Monroe, and its true we would, but we need a PG more than anything else as there is literally no starting PGs that are going to become free agents in the next two years.
If the guards are taken, and we are forced to choose between Oke and WCS, I wouldn't be mad if we traded down a few picks to get WCS and get something else in return, preferably a PG. That way we sign Monroe and we are solid in the frontcourt.
Over a month ago when Phil made those comments about
finding a defensive anchor, my buddy said to me "I really think he's talking about WCS". Since then, my buddy's been following Phil's quotes and continuously says, "I really think he's taking WCS". I just sent this article to him.
When the hell did I say #4? I explicitly said I would NOT take him at #4...
The Knicks would be taking him at #4. I think that is horrible for a role player when you have guys out there that could become legitimate superstars. WCS will never be a superstar.
article. No way we take WCS at 4. If we trade down sure, although i wouldnt be happy unless we got a really good asset.
His D should def translate. as others have said he has a very high floor which is nice, but his ceiling is low so no way would you take him at 4.
And why use guys like Westbrook, curry, harden, etc... as guys that would eat him up. Of course they would, guards cant guard them. When people say he can guard guards they are usually referring to your avg NBA guard, not the best players in the league.
for sure that his defense will translate to the NBA?
He struggles against guards who can penetrate and often struggled against powerful big men.
Seems to me that covers a pretty large swath of players he'd encounter in the NBA.
You'd be talking about drafting at #4 a guy who at best will be a solid defender with poor offensive skills and at worst will mediocre to poor in both areas.
At #4?
"Cauley-Stein is a player who is both extremely gifted from a measurements standpoint, but also in terms of athleticism ... At the Kentucky Combine he measured 7.25 in shoes, with a 72 wingspan, and a great 92 standing reach ... He also is extremely nimble, and an explosive and quick leaper ... Willie also has tremendous defensive abilities, excelling at hedging on pick and rolls, as well as protecting the rim ... Hes seen a dip in shot blocking numbers due to his use as a pick and roll defender, and Karl Anthony Towns being used as the primary paint enforcer, but as a sophomore WCS blocked 2.9 shots per game as Kentuckys primary rim protector ... His physical tools should allow these elite defensive traits to translate to the NBA level ... Cauley-Stein has the potential to be able to guard NBA wing positions at a high level, at least early in his NBA career ... " WCS Scouting Report - ( New Window )
I am jsut cautioning you. The college game, IMO, has declined as far as player development therefore the product has suffered.
I am not going to say he is going to be a bad defender, but just because he dominated college basketball (and I watched a lot of basketball) doesnt necessarily mean he will in the NBA. They are different stratospheres as far as skill is concerned.
Not to start a rift or anything but I would argue I watch more college basketball than anyone else I know and more than the average basketball fan. And I HATE kentucky. I go to IU but ended up watching tons of UK games because my roommate is a UK fan (funny how that works).
If you are trashing the college basketball talent pool, then how do you analyze ANYONE in this draft? If WCS sucks on defense, then Russell can't shoot, Okafor can't score, and KAT is a piece of junk that will never amount to anything..
every one of them had WCS going at #6. I understand that #4 is higher than #6 but is it such a big difference that Jax should be perceived as "reaching" so much?
trading Chandler (in part because he lacks the passing, shooting and post skills to do well in the triangle) to get a 22 year old version of Chandler (and one that doesn't rebound at a rate like Chandler).
RE: I just looked at about 8 mock drafts from various sources and
every one of them had WCS going at #6. I understand that #4 is higher than #6 but is it such a big difference that Jax should be perceived as "reaching" so much?
Most view this as a 4 player draft so yeah after the top 4 there are about 5 names that could go in the next few slots making this a reach.
WCS, 2 euro's, Winslow are all view as the "next best" guys after the top 4 prospects.
every one of them had WCS going at #6. I understand that #4 is higher than #6 but is it such a big difference that Jax should be perceived as "reaching" so much?
Most view this as a 4 player draft so yeah after the top 4 there are about 5 names that could go in the next few slots making this a reach.
WCS, 2 euro's, Winslow are all view as the "next best" guys after the top 4 prospects.
Right, that is the common view but it's based on the assumption that Mudiay is so much better than those guys - since the other 3 of the "big 4" will be off the table. I guess I don't see why there can't be a different view. No one on this board has seen Mudiay play to any great extent in competition that we can evaluate.
trading Chandler (in part because he lacks the passing, shooting and post skills to do well in the triangle) to get a 22 year old version of Chandler (and one that doesn't rebound at a rate like Chandler).
Well his outright rebounding numbers are poor due to the fact that UK started 3 bigs and 2 guards that were 6'6".
But yes, if Phil really doesn't like Okafor that much, you trade out to get something in return because chances are theres another team that does.
Pretty much every nba site and expert says this is a 4 player draft. Many of which say mudiay can easily be ahead of Russell. So even though i havent seen much of him im assuming that all those "experts" have at least watched some of him. Its not like its split amongst sites and people between WCS and Mudiay, literally everyone has mudiay as part of the top 4.
Mudiay is not a fit for the triangle and not a fit next to Melo really do not understand the triangle...
First off the notion that the PG has to be able to shoot 3's is way overblow...Ron Harper was a 20% shooter from 3...
Secondly in the triangle one of the guards was always able to drive into the paint and break down a defense, it just happened to be their best player, Kobe and MJ...
Mudiay could easily fit that role, obviously he is not going to be MJ or Kobe but that role can be filled by a PG who can get into the lane which Mudiay can...
Galloway would be used as the Guard to spread the floor and shoot the open 3...
Melo will still be used as the main guy, the guy who gets the ball with 5-7 seconds left when the offense bogs down and he can play in the post on the strong side or weak side and play the two man game with Mudiay...
Also when was the last time Melo actually played with a Guard who could break down a defense and find the open man consistently???
Melo is great in pass and shoot situations, with Melo and Galloway the floor would be spread for Mudiay to drive into the paint and break down a defense...
Plus Phil has mentioned numerous times how he wants a player who can break down a defense...
did Stein go up against? Kaminsky dominated him to a 20/11 night.
Frank actually matched up against Towns.
Dekker went up against WCS and put up 16 though.
Oh thats right. I just remember him having problems defensively that game.
Can't find a Dekker full scoring vid vs UK but 3 of his points came against an And-1 vs Booker and he hit a stepback 3 against Towns. So thats 6 of his points that weren't against WCS. Don't know why WCS gets the full blame for all 16 points from a top NBA wing prospect, but it seems like you have a predetermined notion to disregard any of WCS's defensive ability regardless of what is actually true.
I've gotten 8 points so far and if I have time I can go through and see if I can see how he scored the other 8.
Dekker did score on a well-contested floater on full isolation on WCS which I have provided the link for. For now I'll assume you will attribute the rest of the 6 points to the fault of WCS as well if I cannot find it out.
But even so, to funny how all of WCS ability comes down to how he defended an NBA SF prospect to you guys. Especially after he shredded one of the top defensive prospects in Stanley Johnson for 27 points in the previous game to this one.. Dekker floater - ( New Window )
to disregard what he can do. I question how effective he'll be as a complete player and how helpful he'll be in leading to a better team if the Knicks take him at 4. He's not going to be a shutdown defender and he adds virtually nothing from an offensive standpoint. Taking one-dimensional players that high in a draft will kill a team. Just ask the Bobcats/Hornets about Adam Morrison.
I look at WCS as being a far less player than Chandler was, as many others have stated above. That isn't what I'd want to see from a #4 pick.
I see him as very comparable to chandler. He might even be a better one on one defender as chandler isnt that great. Thing is if you take Tyson Chandler at 4 you have done pretty well for yourself.
That said most on here arent saying take him at 4. The argument become more about him as a defender, not whether we should take him at. I actually really like WCS, but would be livid if we took him at 4.
to disregard what he can do. I question how effective he'll be as a complete player and how helpful he'll be in leading to a better team if the Knicks take him at 4. He's not going to be a shutdown defender and he adds virtually nothing from an offensive standpoint. Taking one-dimensional players that high in a draft will kill a team. Just ask the Bobcats/Hornets about Adam Morrison.
I look at WCS as being a far less player than Chandler was, as many others have stated above. That isn't what I'd want to see from a #4 pick.
Again, if you can point out a time where I mentioned I said I want the Knicks to take him at 4 I will stand back. And you keep criticizing him defensively yet have nothing to show for it. If there are any explicit clips of him showing that he has something wrong fundamentally on defense I would really like to see it, because as far as any NBA scouting expert is, he is going to drastically change the defense of whatever team chooses him.
Larry Bird called him "a $100 million man". If there's some scout you know that has something that says otherwise, please send me a link because I would like to know if there is something I don't know about him.
It seems like Cauley-Stein is a more advanced version of Tyson Chandler coming out, and you can win in the modern NBA with that. I wouldn't be too worried about a center who's best trait is length and defense. That's exactly what you want.
Be less concerned about about his ability to make 2-point goals.
defender in the NBA from Day 1. The man is the best defensive big when it comes out to switching onto guards that I've seen since KG. The NBA is all about PnRs and spacing. Well, WCS is dominant when it comes to defending the PnR and his court coverage is insane.
His D is not going to bust. I'd be willing to bet my career on that as a GM. This is a special defensive player who is going to be a garbage-man on offense.
IMO, he's a Tyson Chandler/KG hybrid on D which is a Max-player even if he scores just 10 PPG on garbage buckets.
Kentucky was undefeated because of their D. They had the best D college ball had seen in the past decade. WCS was by far the #1 defender on that team, Towns wasn't in the same stratosphere on D.
That being said, I don't think the Knicks are the ideal spot for WCS. I'm in line with those saying "Why trade Chandler, just to draft a younger version?". The Knicks need an offensive stud on the perimeter in the worst way.
the man put up pretty block numbers but was a sloppy player. The fact that he stole a DPOY from Tim Duncan is one of the great travesties of the last decade. He never came close to DPOY impact.
WCS has a lot higher ceiling on D than "Camby-level".
people can't even agree on WCS ceiling. some are saying he's a high floor guy now, but his ceiling is low. I'd hazard a guess that is closer to the truth since it is really hard to get guys like him to develop an offensive game.
I'd imagine his ceiling is to be a good interior and wing defender who could develop into a decent rebounder. That's not exactly what you want at #4.
And for the purposes of this discussion - hypothizing the Knicks will take him at 4, that's what I mean.
the hell are we getting a difference maker/star if we don't shoot for one right now at 4? No pick next year etc. Please don't take WCS at 4, if you do something like 4 for 7 and Faried or Lawson AND WCS, do it up.
100% cool with swapping picks with someone in the 7-10 range IF we can get a legit asset ie Faried, Lawson caliber of talent.
Agreed as much as i would be happy with Mudiay, if you can add an asset that can contribute and get a pick swap i would do it...This team has a lot of holes, have to be creative..
100% cool with swapping picks with someone in the 7-10 range IF we can get a legit asset ie Faried, Lawson caliber of talent.
Agreed as much as i would be happy with Mudiay, if you can add an asset that can contribute and get a pick swap i would do it...This team has a lot of holes, have to be creative..
I'm all about Mudiay as well but just saying if you told me we made that kind of deal I'd be pretty happy.
they obviously feel that he has a higher ceiling than just a complimentary player. That's what some of you need to accept. If the Knicks love the guy that should take him. If they are wrong, they will be judged but I can't judge them on how they view a player before the guy plays a single game. Stein isn't just some slob of a prospect. He's a big tall fuck that defends well. That's not complimentary if it pans out in the NBA. That's cornerstone player.
All this angst about letting Chandler go for nothing while drafting a his supposed carbon copy is a load of layered crap. I say layered because it's two parts bullshit:
A--Chandler is on the way down and will cost a lot.
B--An in his prime Chandler type would help this team a lot.
Just get a good player in here. Judge the pick after a year or so...
Mudiay is not a fit for the triangle and not a fit next to Melo really do not understand the triangle...
First off the notion that the PG has to be able to shoot 3's is way overblow...Ron Harper was a 20% shooter from 3...
Secondly in the triangle one of the guards was always able to drive into the paint and break down a defense, it just happened to be their best player, Kobe and MJ...
Mudiay could easily fit that role, obviously he is not going to be MJ or Kobe but that role can be filled by a PG who can get into the lane which Mudiay can...
Galloway would be used as the Guard to spread the floor and shoot the open 3...
Melo will still be used as the main guy, the guy who gets the ball with 5-7 seconds left when the offense bogs down and he can play in the post on the strong side or weak side and play the two man game with Mudiay...
Also when was the last time Melo actually played with a Guard who could break down a defense and find the open man consistently???
Melo is great in pass and shoot situations, with Melo and Galloway the floor would be spread for Mudiay to drive into the paint and break down a defense...
Plus Phil has mentioned numerous times how he wants a player who can break down a defense...
In that tv show he did on MSG he mentioned how adding defense is going to be at a premium in this offseason. So of the top 4 prospects I would think Towns and Mudiay are the best defenders or have the best upside to become great defenders.
Mook and Dan. We need to hit a HR with this pick. Cauley-Stein would be so disappointing. I think he has a chance to be a tremendous defensive player, but nothing else. He's a specialist. You don't take specialists in the Lottery. He will go in the lottery because he's a specialist who happens to be 7 feet tall, but if he were 6'8" he wouldn't be sniffing the lottery.
they obviously feel that he has a higher ceiling than just a complimentary player. That's what some of you need to accept. If the Knicks love the guy that should take him. If they are wrong, they will be judged but I can't judge them on how they view a player before the guy plays a single game. Stein isn't just some slob of a prospect. He's a big tall fuck that defends well. That's not complimentary if it pans out in the NBA. That's cornerstone player.
All this angst about letting Chandler go for nothing while drafting a his supposed carbon copy is a load of layered crap. I say layered because it's two parts bullshit:
A--Chandler is on the way down and will cost a lot.
B--An in his prime Chandler type would help this team a lot.
Just get a good player in here. Judge the pick after a year or so...
The Knicks, unlike the Giants, have not deserved the benefit of the doubt in a long time. Perhaps Phil Jackson deserves the benefit of the doubt, but he's never developed rosters, he's just coached them. And picking WCS after three years of college basketball during which his offensive game has gone from non-existent to horrible, fans would be certainly justified index one guessing the pick.
Anyway, we will likely not pick him so it doesn't matter.
Mook and Dan. We need to hit a HR with this pick. Cauley-Stein would be so disappointing. I think he has a chance to be a tremendous defensive player, but nothing else. He's a specialist. You don't take specialists in the Lottery. He will go in the lottery because he's a specialist who happens to be 7 feet tall, but if he were 6'8" he wouldn't be sniffing the lottery.
If you consider a rim protector a "specialist", then yes, he is a "specialist". In that sense, Bogut, Mozgov, Howard, Jordan, Gortat are all "specialists". I'm not saying take WCS at 4, because I don't think you do that with these top 4 players in the draft. But the point is every contending team needs that "specialist" in order to win. If we don't get it in this draft, we are going to have to get in free agency.
If we don't get one of the PGs I think we should trade out. If all these reports are accurate, we have a real shot of landing Monroe. As good as Okafor is, if we get Monroe that will solidify our post offense. It would be repetitive to have two guys who can't protect the rim and both clog up the lane on the same team.
The other problem is I don't see where we can trade out and still get WCS. Orlando could package Frye, Fournier, Harkless and Nicholson to move up, but why would Orlando want one of these top 4 prospects?
Theres been some mention of Thibs going to Orlando if he is let go of. If that's the case, I think there are only 2 prospects they are looking at: Winslow and WCS.
And I don't think theres a chance he passes by Sacramento. None of the other prospects really fit what they are, and by all accounts they are win now. WCS fits perfectly with Cousins downlow.
My point is I don't think theres any realistic shot we get WCS if we trade down, and therefore I doubt WCS is a real play for us.
I'm praying Mudiay is on the board when we pick...
You should take a difference maker at 4. Mudiay has a horrid shot but is a great penetrator. WCS is a great defensive player with no offense. Neither are ideal players but each could fit very well with other pieces.
I'll judge the whole package this offseason rather than just pick #4.
I have said this before but will risk repeating it.
Mudiay is a 19-year-old world class athlete. For the tiny number of world class athletes in BB, often the last thing they work on is shooting. If I can beat anyone I am playing against to the rim, I don't need an outside shot all that much, in HS, AAU, or in college or China.
Now, he knows that what he needs to be great is a shooting stroke, and whoever gets him, will immediately have him working with a first-rate shooting coach.
I think the odds of Mudiay developing a quality shot are a lot higher than the odds of C-S developing an offensive game from scratch.
george, what you say is true, but some guys are just awful shooters
But Rondo never had the reasons not to learn to shoot that come with being a 6'5" super-athletic 19 year old. And I am confident that some of the drills the Knicks have Mudiay do when they work him out pre-draft will give some suggestion as to whether he can learn. I am betting he can, but it's a guess.
About mudiay the more I learn that he has a pretty good post game...in high school it was his go to has a good fade away...he played a bully ball style
if they win all we are going to hear from ESPN, SAS and Isola is how Phil gave away 2 good players and then still spew how Lebron is taking a less than stellar team to the finals...
For all the ups and downs JR had, he was one of my favorite players. I could care less about what people say about the Knicks at this point, because it's not going to be positive given the season we had anyways.
I can't see the Finals going more than 5, maybe 6 games though. At this point, I don't think the Cavs could beat the Rockets in a 7 game series without Love.
but more for the fans of the team then specifically for Shump/JR. ALthough i have no issues rooting for them, just not sure id go out of my way to root for them if they were on a team i didnt care for like the heat or something.
but all this talk about how New York did him wrong and that he and Shump are getting redemption and his starting from the bottom now he's here comment yesterday..it is just rubbing me the wrong way...
hey guess what if you guys actually played to your potential the Knicks would of made the playoffs...instead you played like dog shit and looked to blame someone else...
will say it's funny how Rondo has been used as some as an example of a potentially "bad" outcome for the Knicks/Mudiay. TRUST ME Phil Jackson would jerk off in his suite at MSG if he were guaranteed his pick at 4 would become Rondo (pre-injury) minus the headcase stuff. Triangle "perfect fit" or not.
will say it's funny how Rondo has been used as some as an example of a potentially "bad" outcome for the Knicks/Mudiay. TRUST ME Phil Jackson would jerk off in his suite at MSG if he were guaranteed his pick at 4 would become Rondo (pre-injury) minus the headcase stuff. Triangle "perfect fit" or not.
Yeah if Mudiay turns into Rondo pre injury knicks got the best player in the draft...Rondo pre injury was a walking triple double...
I also see if the Knicks do get Mudiay or even Russell i see the Knicks running a lot more two man game pick and pop type stuff with melo and PG...
Fisher with Shved and bargnani ran that a lot in games with Galloway and Smith spreading the floor...
I do not think Fisher is afraid to stray away from specific triangle sets...
are the type of players to help when a team is playing well and won't provide much if your team is down in the dumpster. They are specialists. We were expecting specialists to lead a team into the playoffs.
if they win all we are going to hear from ESPN, SAS and Isola is how Phil gave away 2 good players and then still spew how Lebron is taking a less than stellar team to the finals...
eh, ignore all that crap. Any person who's watched JR and Shump at all in their careers knew they had the potential to play well in the playoffs. Hell, they did it here on occasion.
if they win all we are going to hear from ESPN, SAS and Isola is how Phil gave away 2 good players and then still spew how Lebron is taking a less than stellar team to the finals...
eh, ignore all that crap. Any person who's watched JR and Shump at all in their careers knew they had the potential to play well in the playoffs. Hell, they did it here on occasion.
I liked JR and Shump when they were here but all this talk about how New York has done them wrong and Phil did them wrong that they are spewing is just making me root against them...
When the Knicks sucked and i looked for a team to root for in the West during the playoffs i rooted for Denver, I enjoyed watching their style of play with melo, JR, Kmart and Camby...
than painting JR Smith or Iman Shumpert as victims?
only thing worse than that are the seeing the same writers who killed the JR contract when it was signed, then called it untradeable as he played poorly earlier this season.... now killing the Knicks for getting a pile of first round picks back for him and Shump. There's also all of twitter doing the happy dance after the Knicks fell to 4 in the lottery. That all said, there's nothing "weird" about it. It's mostly because of the owner.
i will not be happy if we ended up with Kaminsky from this draft. I just dont see any scenario where he is more then a solid role player and the knicks need to do better then a guy whose best scenario is borderline starter....
They are also killing Phil Jackson any chance they can get...
It is because first they get more hits when they kill the Knicks rather than praise them...
Second Phil doesnt give them access, there are no leaks when he is discussing a trade with teams, it is not known until the trade call is put into the NBA offices...
Notice how every new york writer praises Donnie Walsh and he did an abolute horrible job with the Knicks it is because he gave them access...
all you hear from writers is oh the Knicks need to build the right way...wel they finally tank and they are still killing them...
Donnie Walsh made shit trades trading away Randolph and Crawford and he is praised for it...instead of tanking like he should before 2010 he tried to be competitive and it backfired...
Knicks should of had 2 top picks on this roster going into 2010 instead they Gallo and the other was traded to clear Jared Jefferies contract along with another first round pick...
Ian Begley @IanBegley 35s36 seconds ago
Ian Begley retweeted Baxter Holmes
Looks like Lakers are considering several candidates for the No. 2 pick. Their selection will impact the #Knicks...
Baxter Holmes @BaxterHolmes
Lakers GM Mitch Kupchak said they'd like to work out at least four and as many as 6-8 players that they'd consider drafting No. 2 overall.
1 retweet 1 favorite
Reply Retweet1 Favorite1
More
KP, Winslow, WCS and Hezonja would be my bet. They are just doing their due diligence.
Not a chance Sac trades Cousins unless they are going full rebuild mode. Theres no way they go rebuild with their wack owner and with George Karl.
Sacramento doesn't trade a 24 year old superstar for a 28 year old PG and a PF who hit his ceiling. Zach Lowe was pinning the Magic to trade the #5 and Vucevic for Cousins. That seems like a better offer to me.
But I can't see Sacramento going to the rebuild mode when they have Cousins under contract for a few more years. I think they have their eyes set on WCS to improve their 4th worst defense. Dallas, Portland, and LA (if Deandre leaves) could potentially face a rude awakening this offseason.
The strategy was simple: Clear space any way possible to have enough room to sign 2 marquee free agents, of which there were at least 4 during the 2010 offseason. He did that.
The fact that he wasn't able to sign Lebron or Bosh or Wade shouldn't cause his tenure to be seen in a poor light. Hindsight is 20/20.
Even then, it seemed like he was on the way to getting Melo without giving up some of the pieces (Mozgov) that were eventually included when Dolan stepped in.
The strategy was simple: Clear space any way possible to have enough room to sign 2 marquee free agents, of which there were at least 4 during the 2010 offseason. He did that.
The fact that he wasn't able to sign Lebron or Bosh or Wade shouldn't cause his tenure to be seen in a poor light. Hindsight is 20/20.
Even then, it seemed like he was on the way to getting Melo without giving up some of the pieces (Mozgov) that were eventually included when Dolan stepped in.
First off Donnie's moves were absolutely horrendous...
He trade Zach Randolph and Crawford for dog shit when he just could of waited...
He traded a future 1st with JJ for TMac to clear more space...
Then when he traded David Lee he could of traded him straight up for Ellis instead he gets dog shit back....
The Melo trade was not going to happen, Melo was going to be traded to the Nets and he was going to sign the extension that is why he met with Dolan before the All Star game...he told him that if the Knicks did not trade for him then he was going to be traded to the Nets and he was going to sign the extension...Then Dolan stepped in...
Walsh was never getting Melo for the package he was offering...
Walsh did horrible job with the Knicks and there really is no way around it...
Instead of tanking he tried to win as many games as posible and still be competitive...
Zach Randolph, traded from the Clippers - "On July 17, 2009, he was traded to the Memphis Grizzlies in exchange for Quentin Richardson."
Jamal Crawford, traded from Golden State - "They traded Crawford to the Atlanta Hawks for guards Acie Law and Speedy Claxton."
The Jared Jeffries contract was another monstrosity that Walsh had to get rid of.
And I don't think anyone can say definitively what was going to happen with the Melo deal as far as talking to Dolan and signing with the Nets. At least I've never heard anything concrete about it, but I'd be curious to hear if you have.
And again, I doubt Timofey Mozgov at that time was the HUGE HOLDUP behind the Melo deal.
to the Nets or Knicks...he was not going to wait to sign his extension because at the time there was talk of Contract roll backs and he wanted his extension signed before the lockout...
As for Randolph and Crawford Walsh traded them in 2008 he had TWO years to trade them...there was no reason to trade them right away...none..
Not tanking was Walsh's biggest down fall, not to mention there were so many leaks in the front office when he was president everyone knew the Knicks plan...the worst kept secret in the world was the KNicks and Curry...
The closer to that deadline the trade was made, the less chance of a trade. Neither of them showed great promise during their tenure with the Knicks, and since the trades were made for shit players, basically teams had to take on albatross contracts that would more than likely take them out of the Lebron sweepstakes of 2010.
Saying "he had two years to make those trades" doesn't take into account the other party's long term goals.
The closer to that deadline the trade was made, the less chance of a trade. Neither of them showed great promise during their tenure with the Knicks, and since the trades were made for shit players, basically teams had to take on albatross contracts that would more than likely take them out of the Lebron sweepstakes of 2010.
Saying "he had two years to make those trades" doesn't take into account the other party's long term goals.
Randolph and Crawford were both playing well in that first year with D'antoni and the team was actually playing well...they were 12-9 i believe when the trade was made...
Randolph and Crawford werent horrible players with horrible contracts...they were useful players in teh right system as they both have shown...
He rushed into those deals and would have no problem with those deals if the Knicks tanked that season, instead they get the 6th pick and miss out on Griffin, harden and Westbrook...
RE: RE: Is there better proof of some weird anti-knick slant in the media
than painting JR Smith or Iman Shumpert as victims?
only thing worse than that are the seeing the same writers who killed the JR contract when it was signed, then called it untradeable as he played poorly earlier this season.... now killing the Knicks for getting a pile of first round picks back for him and Shump. There's also all of twitter doing the happy dance after the Knicks fell to 4 in the lottery. That all said, there's nothing "weird" about it. It's mostly because of the owner.
Bingo. I'd also add that it's because Frank Isola is a moron and generally a despicable writer.
Randolph and Crawford were both playing well in that first year with D'antoni and the team was actually playing well...they were 12-9 i believe when the trade was made...
Randolph and Crawford werent horrible players with horrible contracts...they were useful players in teh right system as they both have shown...
He rushed into those deals and would have no problem with those deals if the Knicks tanked that season, instead they get the 6th pick and miss out on Griffin, harden and Westbrook...
Donnie came on in April 2008 - he had no control over the Knicks tanking at that point.
Quote:
Donnie Walsh's biggest mistake
nygiants16 : 1:06 pm : link : reply
was thinking someone was coming here with an empty roster...no one was coming here to play with Galinari and Chandler...
even when Stat signed his first comment was about getting Tony Parker and Melo to come to New York...
Shit CP3 made a toast and Melo's wedding saying they were going to build their own big 3 in New York...
Walsh opened up space for two Max contracts in 2010. This is pure hindsight. Not to mention I would guess that there was already Heat collusion prior to that offseason...
Quote:
RE: Donnie Walsh's biggest mistake
EricNY33 : 3:08 pm : link : reply
In comment 12302608 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
was thinking someone was coming here with an empty roster...no one was coming here to play with Galinari and Chandler...
even when Stat signed his first comment was about getting Tony Parker and Melo to come to New York...
Shit CP3 made a toast and Melo's wedding saying they were going to build their own big 3 in New York...
The third part was the one that we should all lament. Picking up Billups' option only to amnesty him 5 months later was beyond ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure that Billups' option either had to be picked up for something like $13M, or the Knicks would have had to pay him ~$5M to leave the team. That $5M would have stopped them from signing Tyson Chandler.
I'm not a Walsh apologist, nor do I think he did a spectacular job. But it seems pretty clear that his job was to clear space for 2010 in any way possible to land free agents. And given Dolan's penchant for star players, that probably even further tied Walsh's hands.
From 1990 - 2007, Walsh's Pacers made the playoffs 16 of 17 times. He was responsible for drafting Reggie Miller over Steve Alford, a huge hometown favorite from Indiana University.
He drafted Jordan Hill, which was a shit move, yes. But even now, Jordan Hill has found a place in the league.
Moreover, the argument has partially been "Walsh's biggest fault was not tanking that season to try and get Curry or someone else." Yet earlier, you suggest he should have waited to trade both Crawford and Randolph to get better value. He got rid of players who could be considered good players for crap.
For fucks sake, he had Chris Duhon as the starting PG. Look at the roster for that season. The top 7 Knicks in games played, in order, were:
Wilson Chandler
David Lee
Chris Duhon
Nate Robinson
Quentin Richardson
Al Harrington
Jared Jeffries
How many times under Dolan are we going to blame the GM for shit going poorly? Especially given that the owner is known for being a meddling assclown?
Was it Dolan fault when he traded Lee for dog shit?
Was it Dolan fault when he hired dantoni?
Was it Dolan fault when he traded a first round pick with jj?
It is not hindsight to say he did a shit job...forget about the randolph and Crawford trades....everything he did was terrible
I would argue his best trade was for melo and like you said he didn't want to make the trade
He panicked and gave Stoudemire a guaranteed contract when no one was going to...
Face it he did a horrible job
Stoudemire was a star, regardless of the knee problems. And again, Walsh opened up enough money for two max players (which was the plan) and made a pitch to Lebron. He didn't get him to go along with Amare, so they were forced to go in a different direction.
Traded Lee for dogshit? Surely you understand the concept behind a sign and trade, no?
D'Antoni had a great record with the Suns. Again, hindsight.
Jared Jeffries was ANOTHER albatross contract that went through 2010, which he unloaded with Jordan Hill to again, clear space for 2010 FA.
And I didn't say he wasn't going to do the Melo trade. But you really think Timofey Mozgov, who at that time was only known for being posterized by Blake Griffin, was the make or break piece of the puzzle? Come on man. It's a negotiation. You try to get the best deal possible. In the end, if Denver wouldn't budge from what ended up being the final deal, I think Walsh still would have made it. But that's neglecting Dolan stepping in and saying "I WANT THIS DONE NOW."
If you want to argue about horrible Knicks GMs, it's a crapshoot between Isiah and Layden. Donnie Walsh might as well have been Theo Epstein compared to those two.
To somehow shift blame to the GM when Dolan's starfucker strategy has been well known for years is disingenuous. Walsh was hired to clear cap space for 2010, by any means necessary. He did that. You can say he did a shit job all you want, but as I mentioned - starting from 1990, his Pacers were in the playoffs 16 of the 17 years that he was GM. Since Dolan took over in 1999 or whatever it was, the Knicks have been crap for pretty much its entirety. David Stern was even quoted as saying that the Knicks operations were "not an intelligent model of team management."
$11M/yr through the summer of 2013. David Lee averaged 13.3M/yr following the signing of that contract. Instead of doing that, they got back Randolph, who at that time showed promise, and Turiaf, who was a viable bench player.
This also gave them room to sign Ray Felton for a reasonable 7M/yr, which at that time was considered a good deal.
#2 He gets pushed around a LOT by smaller players. For examples he was guarded by Nigel Hayes(6-5) and Pat Connughton(6-5) in his last two games. Watch the tape--players move him easily--thast why he is a sub par rebounder.
#3 His effort is ay 70% not even close to 110% you need to watch video to understand what Im talking about. He is constantly standing around on offense he rarely crashes the boards if the ball is on the other side he slows down.. I could go on.
#4 His biggest game of his life--as a junior 2 points 5 rebounds AWFUL EFFORT in 33 minutes.
#5 His consistency through his career--SPOTTY--that's why you see so many games where h has 2 -4-6 points and 4-5 rebounds even with near 30 MPG.
#6 While he does a LOT of nice things defensively cutting gaps getting out on the roll or strong side perimeter man he flubs by taking plays off losing poor defensive rebounding and lackluster effort.(again effort)
#7 The opposing team always used their worst defender on WCS--he panics with the ball hes indecisive he cant shoot cant handle poor passer.
When he has to handle bigger players--hes going to have loads of problems. His base is weak hes top heavy and off balanced. His physique really is tapped out as well at nearly 22. He wont be 265 anytime soon.
Because of his liability on offense--this is a guy who needs to play with 125% effort all the time. You see some really nice defensive plays that stand out but if you really watch him--those plays are few and far between. You remember then because they are "highlight" type stuff but the nuances the strength the effort the 110 all out push is not there with this player.
I don't watch the Tournament. I know nothing about any of these guys. I did read in SI a piece on Frank Kaminsky and heard he had an impact during the Tournament. Is he a viable option for the Knicks? Is 4 way to high for him?
I don't watch the Tournament. I know nothing about any of these guys. I did read in SI a piece on Frank Kaminsky and heard he had an impact during the Tournament. Is he a viable option for the Knicks? Is 4 way to high for him?
4 is too high/ Kaminsky figures to be a very good role player. Almost zero "star" upside and with no pick in 2016 the Knicks need to shoot higher
Turner is a better shot blocker. He's got the beginnings of a good outside shot. He has a very strong well-rounded game - much like Towns.
I like Turner, but he needs alot of development. Very weak lower body. A big knock on him is that he shriveled in conference play. His ceiling is higher than WCS's though he is not a great athlete and it will take many years to acclimate him into the league.
Terrible pick if this is true.
Your better off taking the international guy.
Please God, let this not be true
Shit Phil mentioned it again on Twitter the other day mentioning how the Knicks need to find a player qho can break down a defense and get into the lane..
That being said, I would not pick him at 4 and would rather trade down to get him if we really wanted him.
I don't think that would be likely because Sacramento would not pass on him if he feel to them. He fits perfectly with Boogie as he can guard the perimeter and rim protect.
That being said, I would not pick him at 4 and would rather trade down to get him if we really wanted him.
I don't think that would be likely because Sacramento would not pass on him if he feel to them. He fits perfectly with Boogie as he can guard the perimeter and rim protect.
WCS can not defend guards. He may be able to protect the basket on their drives but players like Westbrook, Curry, Paul, Lebron, Harden would eat him up.
Let's say the Kings want mudiay and are willing to trade up to get him, what does trading down from 4 to 6 get you? Seems like Orlando would be more interested in Cauley stein then mudiay given that they don't need a pg. they could play willie at the 4. So is Phil going to risk the player that he really wants to pick up a few second rd picks? I don't think so I think this article may be spot on and I think I will be ok with it l, I was never that high on okafor or KAT. What will be interesting is if okafor and willie are both there at 4, what would Phil do.
He struggles against guards who can penetrate and often struggled against powerful big men.
Seems to me that covers a pretty large swath of players he'd encounter in the NBA.
You'd be talking about drafting at #4 a guy who at best will be a solid defender with poor offensive skills and at worst will mediocre to poor in both areas.
At #4?
Quote:
Defense translates to the NBA if nothing else does. And he will be better than Tyson defensively because he can guard literally every position on the floor.
That being said, I would not pick him at 4 and would rather trade down to get him if we really wanted him.
I don't think that would be likely because Sacramento would not pass on him if he feel to them. He fits perfectly with Boogie as he can guard the perimeter and rim protect.
WCS can not defend guards. He may be able to protect the basket on their drives but players like Westbrook, Curry, Paul, Lebron, Harden would eat him up.
Watch this video and tell me he cannot defend guards. By that comment I'm assuming you did not watch kentucky much this year. I'm not blaming you for it but one of his unique skills as a 7 foot big is how laterally quick is.
By "guarding every position", I did not literally mean he was going to be put on the best wing player on the opposing team. But in PnR and PnP switches, big men are occasionally put on guards. Terrence Jones and Dwight Howard were frequently switched onto Curry last night. I'm saying that WCS will become one of the few bigs, if not the only one, that won't get eaten alive every time he is switched onto a wing.
WCS - ( New Window )
That said, I'd hope that they don't pick him at 4. If Phil doesn't like Mudiay/Russell then he should trade down and get other assets to pick Stein.
He struggles against guards who can penetrate and often struggled against powerful big men.
Seems to me that covers a pretty large swath of players he'd encounter in the NBA.
You'd be talking about drafting at #4 a guy who at best will be a solid defender with poor offensive skills and at worst will mediocre to poor in both areas.
At #4?
"Cauley-Stein is a player who is both extremely gifted from a measurements standpoint, but also in terms of athleticism ... At the Kentucky Combine he measured 7.25 in shoes, with a 72 wingspan, and a great 92 standing reach ... He also is extremely nimble, and an explosive and quick leaper ... Willie also has tremendous defensive abilities, excelling at hedging on pick and rolls, as well as protecting the rim ... Hes seen a dip in shot blocking numbers due to his use as a pick and roll defender, and Karl Anthony Towns being used as the primary paint enforcer, but as a sophomore WCS blocked 2.9 shots per game as Kentuckys primary rim protector ... His physical tools should allow these elite defensive traits to translate to the NBA level ... Cauley-Stein has the potential to be able to guard NBA wing positions at a high level, at least early in his NBA career ... "
WCS Scouting Report - ( New Window )
He struggles against guards who can penetrate and often struggled against powerful big men.
Seems to me that covers a pretty large swath of players he'd encounter in the NBA.
You'd be talking about drafting at #4 a guy who at best will be a solid defender with poor offensive skills and at worst will mediocre to poor in both areas.
At #4?
When the hell did I say #4? I explicitly said I would NOT take him at #4...
Quote:
for sure that his defense will translate to the NBA?
He struggles against guards who can penetrate and often struggled against powerful big men.
Seems to me that covers a pretty large swath of players he'd encounter in the NBA.
You'd be talking about drafting at #4 a guy who at best will be a solid defender with poor offensive skills and at worst will mediocre to poor in both areas.
At #4?
"Cauley-Stein is a player who is both extremely gifted from a measurements standpoint, but also in terms of athleticism ... At the Kentucky Combine he measured 7.25 in shoes, with a 72 wingspan, and a great 92 standing reach ... He also is extremely nimble, and an explosive and quick leaper ... Willie also has tremendous defensive abilities, excelling at hedging on pick and rolls, as well as protecting the rim ... Hes seen a dip in shot blocking numbers due to his use as a pick and roll defender, and Karl Anthony Towns being used as the primary paint enforcer, but as a sophomore WCS blocked 2.9 shots per game as Kentuckys primary rim protector ... His physical tools should allow these elite defensive traits to translate to the NBA level ... Cauley-Stein has the potential to be able to guard NBA wing positions at a high level, at least early in his NBA career ... " WCS Scouting Report - ( New Window )
I am jsut cautioning you. The college game, IMO, has declined as far as player development therefore the product has suffered.
I am not going to say he is going to be a bad defender, but just because he dominated college basketball (and I watched a lot of basketball) doesnt necessarily mean he will in the NBA. They are different stratospheres as far as skill is concerned.
--he is stupid, ignorant or lazy; and
--unlike the zen master he was assumed to be before he seemingly became stupid, ignorant or lazy, he is going to show the press all of his cards so that other teams can predict exactly what he is going to do and adjust accordingly.
Sorry, I don't think he's that stupid, and I doubt very much that he has showed his full hand to anyone, either about the draft or about how he is going to play free agency.
In terms of Mudiay v s Cauley-Stein, of course he knows that most of the rest of the league sees the latter as 6th, 7th or 8th best in this year's draft, and of course he knows that he cannot afford to get less than maximum value this year. If he wants Cauley-Stein that much, which is only the case if this writer's tea leaves properly read what Jackson is thinking, not what he is saying, he will try very hard to trade down to do it. Meanwhile, he will certainly have more interviews and tryouts with Mudiay before writing off the possibility of taking him where most of the world expects him to go.
Aside from the draft, I still think that there is a decent chance that in FA he tries to convince a couple of high-caliber players to take reduced salaries in a one year contract with a player option, in exchange for getting part of the cap increase on a longer contract next year. This could be a win-win-win for any player who really wants to come to NY, and some do. Leaves more cap room to build a higher quality team, protects the player, and allows the player to get an extra year on a contract net year. Has he said so? No. So what?
^This
He goes to a team like Orlando or Sacramento that has great offensive talent already established and needs a defensive presence.
You could argue we would need that if we got Monroe, and its true we would, but we need a PG more than anything else as there is literally no starting PGs that are going to become free agents in the next two years.
If the guards are taken, and we are forced to choose between Oke and WCS, I wouldn't be mad if we traded down a few picks to get WCS and get something else in return, preferably a PG. That way we sign Monroe and we are solid in the frontcourt.
The Knicks would be taking him at #4. I think that is horrible for a role player when you have guys out there that could become legitimate superstars. WCS will never be a superstar.
His D should def translate. as others have said he has a very high floor which is nice, but his ceiling is low so no way would you take him at 4.
And why use guys like Westbrook, curry, harden, etc... as guys that would eat him up. Of course they would, guards cant guard them. When people say he can guard guards they are usually referring to your avg NBA guard, not the best players in the league.
Quote:
In comment 12300456 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
for sure that his defense will translate to the NBA?
He struggles against guards who can penetrate and often struggled against powerful big men.
Seems to me that covers a pretty large swath of players he'd encounter in the NBA.
You'd be talking about drafting at #4 a guy who at best will be a solid defender with poor offensive skills and at worst will mediocre to poor in both areas.
At #4?
"Cauley-Stein is a player who is both extremely gifted from a measurements standpoint, but also in terms of athleticism ... At the Kentucky Combine he measured 7.25 in shoes, with a 72 wingspan, and a great 92 standing reach ... He also is extremely nimble, and an explosive and quick leaper ... Willie also has tremendous defensive abilities, excelling at hedging on pick and rolls, as well as protecting the rim ... Hes seen a dip in shot blocking numbers due to his use as a pick and roll defender, and Karl Anthony Towns being used as the primary paint enforcer, but as a sophomore WCS blocked 2.9 shots per game as Kentuckys primary rim protector ... His physical tools should allow these elite defensive traits to translate to the NBA level ... Cauley-Stein has the potential to be able to guard NBA wing positions at a high level, at least early in his NBA career ... " WCS Scouting Report - ( New Window )
I am jsut cautioning you. The college game, IMO, has declined as far as player development therefore the product has suffered.
I am not going to say he is going to be a bad defender, but just because he dominated college basketball (and I watched a lot of basketball) doesnt necessarily mean he will in the NBA. They are different stratospheres as far as skill is concerned.
Not to start a rift or anything but I would argue I watch more college basketball than anyone else I know and more than the average basketball fan. And I HATE kentucky. I go to IU but ended up watching tons of UK games because my roommate is a UK fan (funny how that works).
If you are trashing the college basketball talent pool, then how do you analyze ANYONE in this draft? If WCS sucks on defense, then Russell can't shoot, Okafor can't score, and KAT is a piece of junk that will never amount to anything..
Not to start a rift or anything but I would argue I watch more college basketball than anyone else
lol?
Quote:
Not to start a rift or anything but I would argue I watch more college basketball than anyone else
lol?
If I have accomplished nothing else in life, I have sat through my fair share of sloppy NCAA games.
Most view this as a 4 player draft so yeah after the top 4 there are about 5 names that could go in the next few slots making this a reach.
WCS, 2 euro's, Winslow are all view as the "next best" guys after the top 4 prospects.
Quote:
every one of them had WCS going at #6. I understand that #4 is higher than #6 but is it such a big difference that Jax should be perceived as "reaching" so much?
Most view this as a 4 player draft so yeah after the top 4 there are about 5 names that could go in the next few slots making this a reach.
WCS, 2 euro's, Winslow are all view as the "next best" guys after the top 4 prospects.
Right, that is the common view but it's based on the assumption that Mudiay is so much better than those guys - since the other 3 of the "big 4" will be off the table. I guess I don't see why there can't be a different view. No one on this board has seen Mudiay play to any great extent in competition that we can evaluate.
Well his outright rebounding numbers are poor due to the fact that UK started 3 bigs and 2 guards that were 6'6".
But yes, if Phil really doesn't like Okafor that much, you trade out to get something in return because chances are theres another team that does.
Pretty much every nba site and expert says this is a 4 player draft. Many of which say mudiay can easily be ahead of Russell. So even though i havent seen much of him im assuming that all those "experts" have at least watched some of him. Its not like its split amongst sites and people between WCS and Mudiay, literally everyone has mudiay as part of the top 4.
Frank actually matched up against Towns.
Dekker went up against WCS and put up 16 though.
Quote:
did Stein go up against? Kaminsky dominated him to a 20/11 night.
Frank actually matched up against Towns.
Dekker went up against WCS and put up 16 though.
Oh thats right. I just remember him having problems defensively that game.
First off the notion that the PG has to be able to shoot 3's is way overblow...Ron Harper was a 20% shooter from 3...
Secondly in the triangle one of the guards was always able to drive into the paint and break down a defense, it just happened to be their best player, Kobe and MJ...
Mudiay could easily fit that role, obviously he is not going to be MJ or Kobe but that role can be filled by a PG who can get into the lane which Mudiay can...
Galloway would be used as the Guard to spread the floor and shoot the open 3...
Melo will still be used as the main guy, the guy who gets the ball with 5-7 seconds left when the offense bogs down and he can play in the post on the strong side or weak side and play the two man game with Mudiay...
Also when was the last time Melo actually played with a Guard who could break down a defense and find the open man consistently???
Melo is great in pass and shoot situations, with Melo and Galloway the floor would be spread for Mudiay to drive into the paint and break down a defense...
Plus Phil has mentioned numerous times how he wants a player who can break down a defense...
Kaminsky vs UK Final Four Breakdown:
Kaminsky: 20 points, 6-8 2PT, 1-3 3 PT
Kaminsky vs Towns: 16 points, 7-11 2 PT, 0-0 3 PT
Vs. WCS: 2 points, 1 for 4 2 PT, 0-0 3 PT, blocked twice
Quote:
In comment 12300513 dep026 said:
Quote:
did Stein go up against? Kaminsky dominated him to a 20/11 night.
Frank actually matched up against Towns.
Dekker went up against WCS and put up 16 though.
Oh thats right. I just remember him having problems defensively that game.
Can't find a Dekker full scoring vid vs UK but 3 of his points came against an And-1 vs Booker and he hit a stepback 3 against Towns. So thats 6 of his points that weren't against WCS. Don't know why WCS gets the full blame for all 16 points from a top NBA wing prospect, but it seems like you have a predetermined notion to disregard any of WCS's defensive ability regardless of what is actually true.
I've gotten 8 points so far and if I have time I can go through and see if I can see how he scored the other 8.
Dekker did score on a well-contested floater on full isolation on WCS which I have provided the link for. For now I'll assume you will attribute the rest of the 6 points to the fault of WCS as well if I cannot find it out.
But even so, to funny how all of WCS ability comes down to how he defended an NBA SF prospect to you guys. Especially after he shredded one of the top defensive prospects in Stanley Johnson for 27 points in the previous game to this one..
Dekker floater - ( New Window )
One was not made for Dekker on this, which is why I don't know the specifics.
Kaminsky vs UK - ( New Window )
10 sec. clip for Team Mudiay - ( New Window )
I look at WCS as being a far less player than Chandler was, as many others have stated above. That isn't what I'd want to see from a #4 pick.
I see him as very comparable to chandler. He might even be a better one on one defender as chandler isnt that great. Thing is if you take Tyson Chandler at 4 you have done pretty well for yourself.
That said most on here arent saying take him at 4. The argument become more about him as a defender, not whether we should take him at. I actually really like WCS, but would be livid if we took him at 4.
I still think Okafor is sitting there at 4 but if he is not i am happy with the Guards...
I look at WCS as being a far less player than Chandler was, as many others have stated above. That isn't what I'd want to see from a #4 pick.
Again, if you can point out a time where I mentioned I said I want the Knicks to take him at 4 I will stand back. And you keep criticizing him defensively yet have nothing to show for it. If there are any explicit clips of him showing that he has something wrong fundamentally on defense I would really like to see it, because as far as any NBA scouting expert is, he is going to drastically change the defense of whatever team chooses him.
Larry Bird called him "a $100 million man". If there's some scout you know that has something that says otherwise, please send me a link because I would like to know if there is something I don't know about him.
Agree 100% w/ Italianju.
Be less concerned about about his ability to make 2-point goals.
A team like Sac can put him with cousins...
A team like the Hornets can put him with Al Jefferson...
Pacers want to play faster and he would fit that at the 5...
A team like Sac can put him with cousins...
A team like the Hornets can put him with Al Jefferson...
Pacers want to play faster and he would fit that at the 5...
Sounds like Greg Monroe :)
His D is not going to bust. I'd be willing to bet my career on that as a GM. This is a special defensive player who is going to be a garbage-man on offense.
IMO, he's a Tyson Chandler/KG hybrid on D which is a Max-player even if he scores just 10 PPG on garbage buckets.
Kentucky was undefeated because of their D. They had the best D college ball had seen in the past decade. WCS was by far the #1 defender on that team, Towns wasn't in the same stratosphere on D.
That being said, I don't think the Knicks are the ideal spot for WCS. I'm in line with those saying "Why trade Chandler, just to draft a younger version?". The Knicks need an offensive stud on the perimeter in the worst way.
WCS has a lot higher ceiling on D than "Camby-level".
they need to hit on this pick and they need a 2 way player...no more one dimensional players...It has killed them in the past...
I'd imagine his ceiling is to be a good interior and wing defender who could develop into a decent rebounder. That's not exactly what you want at #4.
And for the purposes of this discussion - hypothizing the Knicks will take him at 4, that's what I mean.
Kemba and 9 for Calderon and 4??
Kemba is signed to 2019 at 12 million...
You would add around 3 million in salary give or take...
Agreed as much as i would be happy with Mudiay, if you can add an asset that can contribute and get a pick swap i would do it...This team has a lot of holes, have to be creative..
I meant defensively. Obviously offense is never a factor for Chandler.
Chandler didn't really hit his peak impact as a defender for a long time.
Quote:
100% cool with swapping picks with someone in the 7-10 range IF we can get a legit asset ie Faried, Lawson caliber of talent.
Agreed as much as i would be happy with Mudiay, if you can add an asset that can contribute and get a pick swap i would do it...This team has a lot of holes, have to be creative..
I'm all about Mudiay as well but just saying if you told me we made that kind of deal I'd be pretty happy.
We need to hit the jackpot. Not a double.
I want to win a title, to do that we're going to need a superstar.
Chances are the guy at 4 won't be, but I'd like to give it a shot
We need to hit the jackpot. Not a double.
I want to win a title, to do that we're going to need a superstar.
Chances are the guy at 4 won't be, but I'd like to give it a shot
I wouldnt do it for lawson either, for a guy like Kemba i would do it..
Out of the rest of the Top 10, IMO, Justice Winslow has the possibility too, but he's going to need a little time to develop.
All this angst about letting Chandler go for nothing while drafting a his supposed carbon copy is a load of layered crap. I say layered because it's two parts bullshit:
A--Chandler is on the way down and will cost a lot.
B--An in his prime Chandler type would help this team a lot.
Just get a good player in here. Judge the pick after a year or so...
First off the notion that the PG has to be able to shoot 3's is way overblow...Ron Harper was a 20% shooter from 3...
Secondly in the triangle one of the guards was always able to drive into the paint and break down a defense, it just happened to be their best player, Kobe and MJ...
Mudiay could easily fit that role, obviously he is not going to be MJ or Kobe but that role can be filled by a PG who can get into the lane which Mudiay can...
Galloway would be used as the Guard to spread the floor and shoot the open 3...
Melo will still be used as the main guy, the guy who gets the ball with 5-7 seconds left when the offense bogs down and he can play in the post on the strong side or weak side and play the two man game with Mudiay...
Also when was the last time Melo actually played with a Guard who could break down a defense and find the open man consistently???
Melo is great in pass and shoot situations, with Melo and Galloway the floor would be spread for Mudiay to drive into the paint and break down a defense...
Plus Phil has mentioned numerous times how he wants a player who can break down a defense...
In that tv show he did on MSG he mentioned how adding defense is going to be at a premium in this offseason. So of the top 4 prospects I would think Towns and Mudiay are the best defenders or have the best upside to become great defenders.
All this angst about letting Chandler go for nothing while drafting a his supposed carbon copy is a load of layered crap. I say layered because it's two parts bullshit:
A--Chandler is on the way down and will cost a lot.
B--An in his prime Chandler type would help this team a lot.
Just get a good player in here. Judge the pick after a year or so...
The Knicks, unlike the Giants, have not deserved the benefit of the doubt in a long time. Perhaps Phil Jackson deserves the benefit of the doubt, but he's never developed rosters, he's just coached them. And picking WCS after three years of college basketball during which his offensive game has gone from non-existent to horrible, fans would be certainly justified index one guessing the pick.
Anyway, we will likely not pick him so it doesn't matter.
Well, yeah, but that's true every year. potentially effective size gets drafted because there isn't much of it.
If you consider a rim protector a "specialist", then yes, he is a "specialist". In that sense, Bogut, Mozgov, Howard, Jordan, Gortat are all "specialists". I'm not saying take WCS at 4, because I don't think you do that with these top 4 players in the draft. But the point is every contending team needs that "specialist" in order to win. If we don't get it in this draft, we are going to have to get in free agency.
If we don't get one of the PGs I think we should trade out. If all these reports are accurate, we have a real shot of landing Monroe. As good as Okafor is, if we get Monroe that will solidify our post offense. It would be repetitive to have two guys who can't protect the rim and both clog up the lane on the same team.
The other problem is I don't see where we can trade out and still get WCS. Orlando could package Frye, Fournier, Harkless and Nicholson to move up, but why would Orlando want one of these top 4 prospects?
Theres been some mention of Thibs going to Orlando if he is let go of. If that's the case, I think there are only 2 prospects they are looking at: Winslow and WCS.
And I don't think theres a chance he passes by Sacramento. None of the other prospects really fit what they are, and by all accounts they are win now. WCS fits perfectly with Cousins downlow.
My point is I don't think theres any realistic shot we get WCS if we trade down, and therefore I doubt WCS is a real play for us.
I'm praying Mudiay is on the board when we pick...
I'll judge the whole package this offseason rather than just pick #4.
Now, he knows that what he needs to be great is a shooting stroke, and whoever gets him, will immediately have him working with a first-rate shooting coach.
I think the odds of Mudiay developing a quality shot are a lot higher than the odds of C-S developing an offensive game from scratch.
I'd have no issues with Mudiay at #4; he's a great athlete. But again we've gotta land a bunch of players who complement each other this offseason.
But Rondo never had the reasons not to learn to shoot that come with being a 6'5" super-athletic 19 year old. And I am confident that some of the drills the Knicks have Mudiay do when they work him out pre-draft will give some suggestion as to whether he can learn. I am betting he can, but it's a guess.
I can't see the Finals going more than 5, maybe 6 games though. At this point, I don't think the Cavs could beat the Rockets in a 7 game series without Love.
hey guess what if you guys actually played to your potential the Knicks would of made the playoffs...instead you played like dog shit and looked to blame someone else...
Yeah if Mudiay turns into Rondo pre injury knicks got the best player in the draft...Rondo pre injury was a walking triple double...
I also see if the Knicks do get Mudiay or even Russell i see the Knicks running a lot more two man game pick and pop type stuff with melo and PG...
Fisher with Shved and bargnani ran that a lot in games with Galloway and Smith spreading the floor...
I do not think Fisher is afraid to stray away from specific triangle sets...
Kupchak mentioned lottery teams have already called looking to trade up into the 2 spot....
There is still some talk that Flip may trade down and take Porzingis...
eh, ignore all that crap. Any person who's watched JR and Shump at all in their careers knew they had the potential to play well in the playoffs. Hell, they did it here on occasion.
Quote:
if they win all we are going to hear from ESPN, SAS and Isola is how Phil gave away 2 good players and then still spew how Lebron is taking a less than stellar team to the finals...
eh, ignore all that crap. Any person who's watched JR and Shump at all in their careers knew they had the potential to play well in the playoffs. Hell, they did it here on occasion.
I liked JR and Shump when they were here but all this talk about how New York has done them wrong and Phil did them wrong that they are spewing is just making me root against them...
When the Knicks sucked and i looked for a team to root for in the West during the playoffs i rooted for Denver, I enjoyed watching their style of play with melo, JR, Kmart and Camby...
3 way trade?
cousins to Knicks
7 Lawson Faried and THJR to Kings
4 and calderon to Denver
Denver gets 4
Knicks trade 4 but get rid of Calderon and THJR and add a superstar in Cousins...
Even with adding Cousins Knicks would still have 25 million to spend with this trade
only thing worse than that are the seeing the same writers who killed the JR contract when it was signed, then called it untradeable as he played poorly earlier this season.... now killing the Knicks for getting a pile of first round picks back for him and Shump. There's also all of twitter doing the happy dance after the Knicks fell to 4 in the lottery. That all said, there's nothing "weird" about it. It's mostly because of the owner.
<Hides from Jon>
Link - ( New Window )
It is because first they get more hits when they kill the Knicks rather than praise them...
Second Phil doesnt give them access, there are no leaks when he is discussing a trade with teams, it is not known until the trade call is put into the NBA offices...
Notice how every new york writer praises Donnie Walsh and he did an abolute horrible job with the Knicks it is because he gave them access...
all you hear from writers is oh the Knicks need to build the right way...wel they finally tank and they are still killing them...
Donnie Walsh made shit trades trading away Randolph and Crawford and he is praised for it...instead of tanking like he should before 2010 he tried to be competitive and it backfired...
Knicks should of had 2 top picks on this roster going into 2010 instead they Gallo and the other was traded to clear Jared Jefferies contract along with another first round pick...
Ian Begley retweeted Baxter Holmes
Looks like Lakers are considering several candidates for the No. 2 pick. Their selection will impact the #Knicks...
Baxter Holmes @BaxterHolmes
Lakers GM Mitch Kupchak said they'd like to work out at least four and as many as 6-8 players that they'd consider drafting No. 2 overall.
1 retweet 1 favorite
Reply Retweet1 Favorite1
More
KP, Winslow, WCS and Hezonja would be my bet. They are just doing their due diligence.
Not a chance Sac trades Cousins unless they are going full rebuild mode. Theres no way they go rebuild with their wack owner and with George Karl.
Sacramento doesn't trade a 24 year old superstar for a 28 year old PG and a PF who hit his ceiling. Zach Lowe was pinning the Magic to trade the #5 and Vucevic for Cousins. That seems like a better offer to me.
But I can't see Sacramento going to the rebuild mode when they have Cousins under contract for a few more years. I think they have their eyes set on WCS to improve their 4th worst defense. Dallas, Portland, and LA (if Deandre leaves) could potentially face a rude awakening this offseason.
7th overall Lawson faried and THJR is a pretty good package for Cousins...
The strategy was simple: Clear space any way possible to have enough room to sign 2 marquee free agents, of which there were at least 4 during the 2010 offseason. He did that.
The fact that he wasn't able to sign Lebron or Bosh or Wade shouldn't cause his tenure to be seen in a poor light. Hindsight is 20/20.
Even then, it seemed like he was on the way to getting Melo without giving up some of the pieces (Mozgov) that were eventually included when Dolan stepped in.
The strategy was simple: Clear space any way possible to have enough room to sign 2 marquee free agents, of which there were at least 4 during the 2010 offseason. He did that.
The fact that he wasn't able to sign Lebron or Bosh or Wade shouldn't cause his tenure to be seen in a poor light. Hindsight is 20/20.
Even then, it seemed like he was on the way to getting Melo without giving up some of the pieces (Mozgov) that were eventually included when Dolan stepped in.
First off Donnie's moves were absolutely horrendous...
He trade Zach Randolph and Crawford for dog shit when he just could of waited...
He traded a future 1st with JJ for TMac to clear more space...
Then when he traded David Lee he could of traded him straight up for Ellis instead he gets dog shit back....
The Melo trade was not going to happen, Melo was going to be traded to the Nets and he was going to sign the extension that is why he met with Dolan before the All Star game...he told him that if the Knicks did not trade for him then he was going to be traded to the Nets and he was going to sign the extension...Then Dolan stepped in...
Walsh was never getting Melo for the package he was offering...
Walsh did horrible job with the Knicks and there really is no way around it...
Instead of tanking he tried to win as many games as posible and still be competitive...
Zach Randolph, traded from the Clippers - "On July 17, 2009, he was traded to the Memphis Grizzlies in exchange for Quentin Richardson."
Jamal Crawford, traded from Golden State - "They traded Crawford to the Atlanta Hawks for guards Acie Law and Speedy Claxton."
The Jared Jeffries contract was another monstrosity that Walsh had to get rid of.
And I don't think anyone can say definitively what was going to happen with the Melo deal as far as talking to Dolan and signing with the Nets. At least I've never heard anything concrete about it, but I'd be curious to hear if you have.
And again, I doubt Timofey Mozgov at that time was the HUGE HOLDUP behind the Melo deal.
As for Randolph and Crawford Walsh traded them in 2008 he had TWO years to trade them...there was no reason to trade them right away...none..
Not tanking was Walsh's biggest down fall, not to mention there were so many leaks in the front office when he was president everyone knew the Knicks plan...the worst kept secret in the world was the KNicks and Curry...
Saying "he had two years to make those trades" doesn't take into account the other party's long term goals.
Saying "he had two years to make those trades" doesn't take into account the other party's long term goals.
Randolph and Crawford were both playing well in that first year with D'antoni and the team was actually playing well...they were 12-9 i believe when the trade was made...
Randolph and Crawford werent horrible players with horrible contracts...they were useful players in teh right system as they both have shown...
He rushed into those deals and would have no problem with those deals if the Knicks tanked that season, instead they get the 6th pick and miss out on Griffin, harden and Westbrook...
Quote:
than painting JR Smith or Iman Shumpert as victims?
only thing worse than that are the seeing the same writers who killed the JR contract when it was signed, then called it untradeable as he played poorly earlier this season.... now killing the Knicks for getting a pile of first round picks back for him and Shump. There's also all of twitter doing the happy dance after the Knicks fell to 4 in the lottery. That all said, there's nothing "weird" about it. It's mostly because of the owner.
Bingo. I'd also add that it's because Frank Isola is a moron and generally a despicable writer.
even when Stat signed his first comment was about getting Tony Parker and Melo to come to New York...
Shit CP3 made a toast and Melo's wedding saying they were going to build their own big 3 in New York...
People jsu tlike to change history to fit their agenda...
even when Stat signed his first comment was about getting Tony Parker and Melo to come to New York...
Shit CP3 made a toast and Melo's wedding saying they were going to build their own big 3 in New York...
The third part was the one that we should all lament. Picking up Billups' option only to amnesty him 5 months later was beyond ridiculous.
Randolph and Crawford were both playing well in that first year with D'antoni and the team was actually playing well...they were 12-9 i believe when the trade was made...
Randolph and Crawford werent horrible players with horrible contracts...they were useful players in teh right system as they both have shown...
He rushed into those deals and would have no problem with those deals if the Knicks tanked that season, instead they get the 6th pick and miss out on Griffin, harden and Westbrook...
Donnie came on in April 2008 - he had no control over the Knicks tanking at that point.
nygiants16 : 1:06 pm : link : reply
was thinking someone was coming here with an empty roster...no one was coming here to play with Galinari and Chandler...
even when Stat signed his first comment was about getting Tony Parker and Melo to come to New York...
Shit CP3 made a toast and Melo's wedding saying they were going to build their own big 3 in New York...
Walsh opened up space for two Max contracts in 2010. This is pure hindsight. Not to mention I would guess that there was already Heat collusion prior to that offseason...
EricNY33 : 3:08 pm : link : reply
In comment 12302608 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
was thinking someone was coming here with an empty roster...no one was coming here to play with Galinari and Chandler...
even when Stat signed his first comment was about getting Tony Parker and Melo to come to New York...
Shit CP3 made a toast and Melo's wedding saying they were going to build their own big 3 in New York...
The third part was the one that we should all lament. Picking up Billups' option only to amnesty him 5 months later was beyond ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure that Billups' option either had to be picked up for something like $13M, or the Knicks would have had to pay him ~$5M to leave the team. That $5M would have stopped them from signing Tyson Chandler.
I'm not a Walsh apologist, nor do I think he did a spectacular job. But it seems pretty clear that his job was to clear space for 2010 in any way possible to land free agents. And given Dolan's penchant for star players, that probably even further tied Walsh's hands.
From 1990 - 2007, Walsh's Pacers made the playoffs 16 of 17 times. He was responsible for drafting Reggie Miller over Steve Alford, a huge hometown favorite from Indiana University.
He drafted Jordan Hill, which was a shit move, yes. But even now, Jordan Hill has found a place in the league.
Moreover, the argument has partially been "Walsh's biggest fault was not tanking that season to try and get Curry or someone else." Yet earlier, you suggest he should have waited to trade both Crawford and Randolph to get better value. He got rid of players who could be considered good players for crap.
For fucks sake, he had Chris Duhon as the starting PG. Look at the roster for that season. The top 7 Knicks in games played, in order, were:
Wilson Chandler
David Lee
Chris Duhon
Nate Robinson
Quentin Richardson
Al Harrington
Jared Jeffries
How many times under Dolan are we going to blame the GM for shit going poorly? Especially given that the owner is known for being a meddling assclown?
Was it Dolan fault when he traded Lee for dog shit?
Was it Dolan fault when he hired dantoni?
Was it Dolan fault when he traded a first round pick with jj?
It is not hindsight to say he did a shit job...forget about the randolph and Crawford trades....everything he did was terrible
I would argue his best trade was for melo and like you said he didn't want to make the trade
He panicked and gave Stoudemire a guaranteed contract when no one was going to...
Face it he did a horrible job
Added shumpert to get rid of jr for nothing
And hired fisher who looks lost.
So he's on the right track- with his only asset being the one Donny acquired
Was it Dolan fault when he traded Lee for dog shit?
Was it Dolan fault when he hired dantoni?
Was it Dolan fault when he traded a first round pick with jj?
It is not hindsight to say he did a shit job...forget about the randolph and Crawford trades....everything he did was terrible
I would argue his best trade was for melo and like you said he didn't want to make the trade
He panicked and gave Stoudemire a guaranteed contract when no one was going to...
Face it he did a horrible job
Stoudemire was a star, regardless of the knee problems. And again, Walsh opened up enough money for two max players (which was the plan) and made a pitch to Lebron. He didn't get him to go along with Amare, so they were forced to go in a different direction.
Traded Lee for dogshit? Surely you understand the concept behind a sign and trade, no?
D'Antoni had a great record with the Suns. Again, hindsight.
Jared Jeffries was ANOTHER albatross contract that went through 2010, which he unloaded with Jordan Hill to again, clear space for 2010 FA.
And I didn't say he wasn't going to do the Melo trade. But you really think Timofey Mozgov, who at that time was only known for being posterized by Blake Griffin, was the make or break piece of the puzzle? Come on man. It's a negotiation. You try to get the best deal possible. In the end, if Denver wouldn't budge from what ended up being the final deal, I think Walsh still would have made it. But that's neglecting Dolan stepping in and saying "I WANT THIS DONE NOW."
If you want to argue about horrible Knicks GMs, it's a crapshoot between Isiah and Layden. Donnie Walsh might as well have been Theo Epstein compared to those two.
To somehow shift blame to the GM when Dolan's starfucker strategy has been well known for years is disingenuous. Walsh was hired to clear cap space for 2010, by any means necessary. He did that. You can say he did a shit job all you want, but as I mentioned - starting from 1990, his Pacers were in the playoffs 16 of the 17 years that he was GM. Since Dolan took over in 1999 or whatever it was, the Knicks have been crap for pretty much its entirety. David Stern was even quoted as saying that the Knicks operations were "not an intelligent model of team management."
Stoudemire may have been a star but he was not getting 5 years from anyone....everyone knew his knees were about to explode
Walsh was offered Ellis for Lee and turned it down
This also gave them room to sign Ray Felton for a reasonable 7M/yr, which at that time was considered a good deal.
Here is the gig with WCS.
#1 He is a player who loses focus A LOT
#2 He gets pushed around a LOT by smaller players. For examples he was guarded by Nigel Hayes(6-5) and Pat Connughton(6-5) in his last two games. Watch the tape--players move him easily--thast why he is a sub par rebounder.
#3 His effort is ay 70% not even close to 110% you need to watch video to understand what Im talking about. He is constantly standing around on offense he rarely crashes the boards if the ball is on the other side he slows down.. I could go on.
#4 His biggest game of his life--as a junior 2 points 5 rebounds AWFUL EFFORT in 33 minutes.
#5 His consistency through his career--SPOTTY--that's why you see so many games where h has 2 -4-6 points and 4-5 rebounds even with near 30 MPG.
#6 While he does a LOT of nice things defensively cutting gaps getting out on the roll or strong side perimeter man he flubs by taking plays off losing poor defensive rebounding and lackluster effort.(again effort)
#7 The opposing team always used their worst defender on WCS--he panics with the ball hes indecisive he cant shoot cant handle poor passer.
When he has to handle bigger players--hes going to have loads of problems. His base is weak hes top heavy and off balanced. His physique really is tapped out as well at nearly 22. He wont be 265 anytime soon.
Because of his liability on offense--this is a guy who needs to play with 125% effort all the time. You see some really nice defensive plays that stand out but if you really watch him--those plays are few and far between. You remember then because they are "highlight" type stuff but the nuances the strength the effort the 110 all out push is not there with this player.
4 is too high/ Kaminsky figures to be a very good role player. Almost zero "star" upside and with no pick in 2016 the Knicks need to shoot higher
I like Turner, but he needs alot of development. Very weak lower body. A big knock on him is that he shriveled in conference play. His ceiling is higher than WCS's though he is not a great athlete and it will take many years to acclimate him into the league.