to disregard what he can do. I question how effective he'll be as a complete player and how helpful he'll be in leading to a better team if the Knicks take him at 4. He's not going to be a shutdown defender and he adds virtually nothing from an offensive standpoint. Taking one-dimensional players that high in a draft will kill a team. Just ask the Bobcats/Hornets about Adam Morrison.
I look at WCS as being a far less player than Chandler was, as many others have stated above. That isn't what I'd want to see from a #4 pick.
Again, if you can point out a time where I mentioned I said I want the Knicks to take him at 4 I will stand back. And you keep criticizing him defensively yet have nothing to show for it. If there are any explicit clips of him showing that he has something wrong fundamentally on defense I would really like to see it, because as far as any NBA scouting expert is, he is going to drastically change the defense of whatever team chooses him.
Larry Bird called him "a $100 million man". If there's some scout you know that has something that says otherwise, please send me a link because I would like to know if there is something I don't know about him.
It seems like Cauley-Stein is a more advanced version of Tyson Chandler coming out, and you can win in the modern NBA with that. I wouldn't be too worried about a center who's best trait is length and defense. That's exactly what you want.
Be less concerned about about his ability to make 2-point goals.
defender in the NBA from Day 1. The man is the best defensive big when it comes out to switching onto guards that I've seen since KG. The NBA is all about PnRs and spacing. Well, WCS is dominant when it comes to defending the PnR and his court coverage is insane.
His D is not going to bust. I'd be willing to bet my career on that as a GM. This is a special defensive player who is going to be a garbage-man on offense.
IMO, he's a Tyson Chandler/KG hybrid on D which is a Max-player even if he scores just 10 PPG on garbage buckets.
Kentucky was undefeated because of their D. They had the best D college ball had seen in the past decade. WCS was by far the #1 defender on that team, Towns wasn't in the same stratosphere on D.
That being said, I don't think the Knicks are the ideal spot for WCS. I'm in line with those saying "Why trade Chandler, just to draft a younger version?". The Knicks need an offensive stud on the perimeter in the worst way.
the man put up pretty block numbers but was a sloppy player. The fact that he stole a DPOY from Tim Duncan is one of the great travesties of the last decade. He never came close to DPOY impact.
WCS has a lot higher ceiling on D than "Camby-level".
people can't even agree on WCS ceiling. some are saying he's a high floor guy now, but his ceiling is low. I'd hazard a guess that is closer to the truth since it is really hard to get guys like him to develop an offensive game.
I'd imagine his ceiling is to be a good interior and wing defender who could develop into a decent rebounder. That's not exactly what you want at #4.
And for the purposes of this discussion - hypothizing the Knicks will take him at 4, that's what I mean.
the hell are we getting a difference maker/star if we don't shoot for one right now at 4? No pick next year etc. Please don't take WCS at 4, if you do something like 4 for 7 and Faried or Lawson AND WCS, do it up.
100% cool with swapping picks with someone in the 7-10 range IF we can get a legit asset ie Faried, Lawson caliber of talent.
Agreed as much as i would be happy with Mudiay, if you can add an asset that can contribute and get a pick swap i would do it...This team has a lot of holes, have to be creative..
100% cool with swapping picks with someone in the 7-10 range IF we can get a legit asset ie Faried, Lawson caliber of talent.
Agreed as much as i would be happy with Mudiay, if you can add an asset that can contribute and get a pick swap i would do it...This team has a lot of holes, have to be creative..
I'm all about Mudiay as well but just saying if you told me we made that kind of deal I'd be pretty happy.
they obviously feel that he has a higher ceiling than just a complimentary player. That's what some of you need to accept. If the Knicks love the guy that should take him. If they are wrong, they will be judged but I can't judge them on how they view a player before the guy plays a single game. Stein isn't just some slob of a prospect. He's a big tall fuck that defends well. That's not complimentary if it pans out in the NBA. That's cornerstone player.
All this angst about letting Chandler go for nothing while drafting a his supposed carbon copy is a load of layered crap. I say layered because it's two parts bullshit:
A--Chandler is on the way down and will cost a lot.
B--An in his prime Chandler type would help this team a lot.
Just get a good player in here. Judge the pick after a year or so...
Mudiay is not a fit for the triangle and not a fit next to Melo really do not understand the triangle...
First off the notion that the PG has to be able to shoot 3's is way overblow...Ron Harper was a 20% shooter from 3...
Secondly in the triangle one of the guards was always able to drive into the paint and break down a defense, it just happened to be their best player, Kobe and MJ...
Mudiay could easily fit that role, obviously he is not going to be MJ or Kobe but that role can be filled by a PG who can get into the lane which Mudiay can...
Galloway would be used as the Guard to spread the floor and shoot the open 3...
Melo will still be used as the main guy, the guy who gets the ball with 5-7 seconds left when the offense bogs down and he can play in the post on the strong side or weak side and play the two man game with Mudiay...
Also when was the last time Melo actually played with a Guard who could break down a defense and find the open man consistently???
Melo is great in pass and shoot situations, with Melo and Galloway the floor would be spread for Mudiay to drive into the paint and break down a defense...
Plus Phil has mentioned numerous times how he wants a player who can break down a defense...
In that tv show he did on MSG he mentioned how adding defense is going to be at a premium in this offseason. So of the top 4 prospects I would think Towns and Mudiay are the best defenders or have the best upside to become great defenders.
Mook and Dan. We need to hit a HR with this pick. Cauley-Stein would be so disappointing. I think he has a chance to be a tremendous defensive player, but nothing else. He's a specialist. You don't take specialists in the Lottery. He will go in the lottery because he's a specialist who happens to be 7 feet tall, but if he were 6'8" he wouldn't be sniffing the lottery.
they obviously feel that he has a higher ceiling than just a complimentary player. That's what some of you need to accept. If the Knicks love the guy that should take him. If they are wrong, they will be judged but I can't judge them on how they view a player before the guy plays a single game. Stein isn't just some slob of a prospect. He's a big tall fuck that defends well. That's not complimentary if it pans out in the NBA. That's cornerstone player.
All this angst about letting Chandler go for nothing while drafting a his supposed carbon copy is a load of layered crap. I say layered because it's two parts bullshit:
A--Chandler is on the way down and will cost a lot.
B--An in his prime Chandler type would help this team a lot.
Just get a good player in here. Judge the pick after a year or so...
The Knicks, unlike the Giants, have not deserved the benefit of the doubt in a long time. Perhaps Phil Jackson deserves the benefit of the doubt, but he's never developed rosters, he's just coached them. And picking WCS after three years of college basketball during which his offensive game has gone from non-existent to horrible, fans would be certainly justified index one guessing the pick.
Anyway, we will likely not pick him so it doesn't matter.
Mook and Dan. We need to hit a HR with this pick. Cauley-Stein would be so disappointing. I think he has a chance to be a tremendous defensive player, but nothing else. He's a specialist. You don't take specialists in the Lottery. He will go in the lottery because he's a specialist who happens to be 7 feet tall, but if he were 6'8" he wouldn't be sniffing the lottery.
If you consider a rim protector a "specialist", then yes, he is a "specialist". In that sense, Bogut, Mozgov, Howard, Jordan, Gortat are all "specialists". I'm not saying take WCS at 4, because I don't think you do that with these top 4 players in the draft. But the point is every contending team needs that "specialist" in order to win. If we don't get it in this draft, we are going to have to get in free agency.
If we don't get one of the PGs I think we should trade out. If all these reports are accurate, we have a real shot of landing Monroe. As good as Okafor is, if we get Monroe that will solidify our post offense. It would be repetitive to have two guys who can't protect the rim and both clog up the lane on the same team.
The other problem is I don't see where we can trade out and still get WCS. Orlando could package Frye, Fournier, Harkless and Nicholson to move up, but why would Orlando want one of these top 4 prospects?
Theres been some mention of Thibs going to Orlando if he is let go of. If that's the case, I think there are only 2 prospects they are looking at: Winslow and WCS.
And I don't think theres a chance he passes by Sacramento. None of the other prospects really fit what they are, and by all accounts they are win now. WCS fits perfectly with Cousins downlow.
My point is I don't think theres any realistic shot we get WCS if we trade down, and therefore I doubt WCS is a real play for us.
I'm praying Mudiay is on the board when we pick...
You should take a difference maker at 4. Mudiay has a horrid shot but is a great penetrator. WCS is a great defensive player with no offense. Neither are ideal players but each could fit very well with other pieces.
I'll judge the whole package this offseason rather than just pick #4.
I have said this before but will risk repeating it.
Mudiay is a 19-year-old world class athlete. For the tiny number of world class athletes in BB, often the last thing they work on is shooting. If I can beat anyone I am playing against to the rim, I don't need an outside shot all that much, in HS, AAU, or in college or China.
Now, he knows that what he needs to be great is a shooting stroke, and whoever gets him, will immediately have him working with a first-rate shooting coach.
I think the odds of Mudiay developing a quality shot are a lot higher than the odds of C-S developing an offensive game from scratch.
george, what you say is true, but some guys are just awful shooters
But Rondo never had the reasons not to learn to shoot that come with being a 6'5" super-athletic 19 year old. And I am confident that some of the drills the Knicks have Mudiay do when they work him out pre-draft will give some suggestion as to whether he can learn. I am betting he can, but it's a guess.
About mudiay the more I learn that he has a pretty good post game...in high school it was his go to has a good fade away...he played a bully ball style
if they win all we are going to hear from ESPN, SAS and Isola is how Phil gave away 2 good players and then still spew how Lebron is taking a less than stellar team to the finals...
For all the ups and downs JR had, he was one of my favorite players. I could care less about what people say about the Knicks at this point, because it's not going to be positive given the season we had anyways.
I can't see the Finals going more than 5, maybe 6 games though. At this point, I don't think the Cavs could beat the Rockets in a 7 game series without Love.
but more for the fans of the team then specifically for Shump/JR. ALthough i have no issues rooting for them, just not sure id go out of my way to root for them if they were on a team i didnt care for like the heat or something.
but all this talk about how New York did him wrong and that he and Shump are getting redemption and his starting from the bottom now he's here comment yesterday..it is just rubbing me the wrong way...
hey guess what if you guys actually played to your potential the Knicks would of made the playoffs...instead you played like dog shit and looked to blame someone else...
will say it's funny how Rondo has been used as some as an example of a potentially "bad" outcome for the Knicks/Mudiay. TRUST ME Phil Jackson would jerk off in his suite at MSG if he were guaranteed his pick at 4 would become Rondo (pre-injury) minus the headcase stuff. Triangle "perfect fit" or not.
will say it's funny how Rondo has been used as some as an example of a potentially "bad" outcome for the Knicks/Mudiay. TRUST ME Phil Jackson would jerk off in his suite at MSG if he were guaranteed his pick at 4 would become Rondo (pre-injury) minus the headcase stuff. Triangle "perfect fit" or not.
Yeah if Mudiay turns into Rondo pre injury knicks got the best player in the draft...Rondo pre injury was a walking triple double...
I also see if the Knicks do get Mudiay or even Russell i see the Knicks running a lot more two man game pick and pop type stuff with melo and PG...
Fisher with Shved and bargnani ran that a lot in games with Galloway and Smith spreading the floor...
I do not think Fisher is afraid to stray away from specific triangle sets...
are the type of players to help when a team is playing well and won't provide much if your team is down in the dumpster. They are specialists. We were expecting specialists to lead a team into the playoffs.
if they win all we are going to hear from ESPN, SAS and Isola is how Phil gave away 2 good players and then still spew how Lebron is taking a less than stellar team to the finals...
eh, ignore all that crap. Any person who's watched JR and Shump at all in their careers knew they had the potential to play well in the playoffs. Hell, they did it here on occasion.
if they win all we are going to hear from ESPN, SAS and Isola is how Phil gave away 2 good players and then still spew how Lebron is taking a less than stellar team to the finals...
eh, ignore all that crap. Any person who's watched JR and Shump at all in their careers knew they had the potential to play well in the playoffs. Hell, they did it here on occasion.
I liked JR and Shump when they were here but all this talk about how New York has done them wrong and Phil did them wrong that they are spewing is just making me root against them...
When the Knicks sucked and i looked for a team to root for in the West during the playoffs i rooted for Denver, I enjoyed watching their style of play with melo, JR, Kmart and Camby...
I still think Okafor is sitting there at 4 but if he is not i am happy with the Guards...
I look at WCS as being a far less player than Chandler was, as many others have stated above. That isn't what I'd want to see from a #4 pick.
Again, if you can point out a time where I mentioned I said I want the Knicks to take him at 4 I will stand back. And you keep criticizing him defensively yet have nothing to show for it. If there are any explicit clips of him showing that he has something wrong fundamentally on defense I would really like to see it, because as far as any NBA scouting expert is, he is going to drastically change the defense of whatever team chooses him.
Larry Bird called him "a $100 million man". If there's some scout you know that has something that says otherwise, please send me a link because I would like to know if there is something I don't know about him.
Agree 100% w/ Italianju.
Be less concerned about about his ability to make 2-point goals.
A team like Sac can put him with cousins...
A team like the Hornets can put him with Al Jefferson...
Pacers want to play faster and he would fit that at the 5...
A team like Sac can put him with cousins...
A team like the Hornets can put him with Al Jefferson...
Pacers want to play faster and he would fit that at the 5...
Sounds like Greg Monroe :)
His D is not going to bust. I'd be willing to bet my career on that as a GM. This is a special defensive player who is going to be a garbage-man on offense.
IMO, he's a Tyson Chandler/KG hybrid on D which is a Max-player even if he scores just 10 PPG on garbage buckets.
Kentucky was undefeated because of their D. They had the best D college ball had seen in the past decade. WCS was by far the #1 defender on that team, Towns wasn't in the same stratosphere on D.
That being said, I don't think the Knicks are the ideal spot for WCS. I'm in line with those saying "Why trade Chandler, just to draft a younger version?". The Knicks need an offensive stud on the perimeter in the worst way.
WCS has a lot higher ceiling on D than "Camby-level".
they need to hit on this pick and they need a 2 way player...no more one dimensional players...It has killed them in the past...
I'd imagine his ceiling is to be a good interior and wing defender who could develop into a decent rebounder. That's not exactly what you want at #4.
And for the purposes of this discussion - hypothizing the Knicks will take him at 4, that's what I mean.
Kemba and 9 for Calderon and 4??
Kemba is signed to 2019 at 12 million...
You would add around 3 million in salary give or take...
Agreed as much as i would be happy with Mudiay, if you can add an asset that can contribute and get a pick swap i would do it...This team has a lot of holes, have to be creative..
I meant defensively. Obviously offense is never a factor for Chandler.
Chandler didn't really hit his peak impact as a defender for a long time.
Quote:
100% cool with swapping picks with someone in the 7-10 range IF we can get a legit asset ie Faried, Lawson caliber of talent.
Agreed as much as i would be happy with Mudiay, if you can add an asset that can contribute and get a pick swap i would do it...This team has a lot of holes, have to be creative..
I'm all about Mudiay as well but just saying if you told me we made that kind of deal I'd be pretty happy.
We need to hit the jackpot. Not a double.
I want to win a title, to do that we're going to need a superstar.
Chances are the guy at 4 won't be, but I'd like to give it a shot
We need to hit the jackpot. Not a double.
I want to win a title, to do that we're going to need a superstar.
Chances are the guy at 4 won't be, but I'd like to give it a shot
I wouldnt do it for lawson either, for a guy like Kemba i would do it..
Out of the rest of the Top 10, IMO, Justice Winslow has the possibility too, but he's going to need a little time to develop.
All this angst about letting Chandler go for nothing while drafting a his supposed carbon copy is a load of layered crap. I say layered because it's two parts bullshit:
A--Chandler is on the way down and will cost a lot.
B--An in his prime Chandler type would help this team a lot.
Just get a good player in here. Judge the pick after a year or so...
First off the notion that the PG has to be able to shoot 3's is way overblow...Ron Harper was a 20% shooter from 3...
Secondly in the triangle one of the guards was always able to drive into the paint and break down a defense, it just happened to be their best player, Kobe and MJ...
Mudiay could easily fit that role, obviously he is not going to be MJ or Kobe but that role can be filled by a PG who can get into the lane which Mudiay can...
Galloway would be used as the Guard to spread the floor and shoot the open 3...
Melo will still be used as the main guy, the guy who gets the ball with 5-7 seconds left when the offense bogs down and he can play in the post on the strong side or weak side and play the two man game with Mudiay...
Also when was the last time Melo actually played with a Guard who could break down a defense and find the open man consistently???
Melo is great in pass and shoot situations, with Melo and Galloway the floor would be spread for Mudiay to drive into the paint and break down a defense...
Plus Phil has mentioned numerous times how he wants a player who can break down a defense...
In that tv show he did on MSG he mentioned how adding defense is going to be at a premium in this offseason. So of the top 4 prospects I would think Towns and Mudiay are the best defenders or have the best upside to become great defenders.
All this angst about letting Chandler go for nothing while drafting a his supposed carbon copy is a load of layered crap. I say layered because it's two parts bullshit:
A--Chandler is on the way down and will cost a lot.
B--An in his prime Chandler type would help this team a lot.
Just get a good player in here. Judge the pick after a year or so...
The Knicks, unlike the Giants, have not deserved the benefit of the doubt in a long time. Perhaps Phil Jackson deserves the benefit of the doubt, but he's never developed rosters, he's just coached them. And picking WCS after three years of college basketball during which his offensive game has gone from non-existent to horrible, fans would be certainly justified index one guessing the pick.
Anyway, we will likely not pick him so it doesn't matter.
Well, yeah, but that's true every year. potentially effective size gets drafted because there isn't much of it.
If you consider a rim protector a "specialist", then yes, he is a "specialist". In that sense, Bogut, Mozgov, Howard, Jordan, Gortat are all "specialists". I'm not saying take WCS at 4, because I don't think you do that with these top 4 players in the draft. But the point is every contending team needs that "specialist" in order to win. If we don't get it in this draft, we are going to have to get in free agency.
If we don't get one of the PGs I think we should trade out. If all these reports are accurate, we have a real shot of landing Monroe. As good as Okafor is, if we get Monroe that will solidify our post offense. It would be repetitive to have two guys who can't protect the rim and both clog up the lane on the same team.
The other problem is I don't see where we can trade out and still get WCS. Orlando could package Frye, Fournier, Harkless and Nicholson to move up, but why would Orlando want one of these top 4 prospects?
Theres been some mention of Thibs going to Orlando if he is let go of. If that's the case, I think there are only 2 prospects they are looking at: Winslow and WCS.
And I don't think theres a chance he passes by Sacramento. None of the other prospects really fit what they are, and by all accounts they are win now. WCS fits perfectly with Cousins downlow.
My point is I don't think theres any realistic shot we get WCS if we trade down, and therefore I doubt WCS is a real play for us.
I'm praying Mudiay is on the board when we pick...
I'll judge the whole package this offseason rather than just pick #4.
Now, he knows that what he needs to be great is a shooting stroke, and whoever gets him, will immediately have him working with a first-rate shooting coach.
I think the odds of Mudiay developing a quality shot are a lot higher than the odds of C-S developing an offensive game from scratch.
I'd have no issues with Mudiay at #4; he's a great athlete. But again we've gotta land a bunch of players who complement each other this offseason.
But Rondo never had the reasons not to learn to shoot that come with being a 6'5" super-athletic 19 year old. And I am confident that some of the drills the Knicks have Mudiay do when they work him out pre-draft will give some suggestion as to whether he can learn. I am betting he can, but it's a guess.
I can't see the Finals going more than 5, maybe 6 games though. At this point, I don't think the Cavs could beat the Rockets in a 7 game series without Love.
hey guess what if you guys actually played to your potential the Knicks would of made the playoffs...instead you played like dog shit and looked to blame someone else...
Yeah if Mudiay turns into Rondo pre injury knicks got the best player in the draft...Rondo pre injury was a walking triple double...
I also see if the Knicks do get Mudiay or even Russell i see the Knicks running a lot more two man game pick and pop type stuff with melo and PG...
Fisher with Shved and bargnani ran that a lot in games with Galloway and Smith spreading the floor...
I do not think Fisher is afraid to stray away from specific triangle sets...
Kupchak mentioned lottery teams have already called looking to trade up into the 2 spot....
There is still some talk that Flip may trade down and take Porzingis...
eh, ignore all that crap. Any person who's watched JR and Shump at all in their careers knew they had the potential to play well in the playoffs. Hell, they did it here on occasion.
Quote:
if they win all we are going to hear from ESPN, SAS and Isola is how Phil gave away 2 good players and then still spew how Lebron is taking a less than stellar team to the finals...
eh, ignore all that crap. Any person who's watched JR and Shump at all in their careers knew they had the potential to play well in the playoffs. Hell, they did it here on occasion.
I liked JR and Shump when they were here but all this talk about how New York has done them wrong and Phil did them wrong that they are spewing is just making me root against them...
When the Knicks sucked and i looked for a team to root for in the West during the playoffs i rooted for Denver, I enjoyed watching their style of play with melo, JR, Kmart and Camby...