Was arguing this the other day with a friend of mine.
I say for sure. There aren't any 2 time SB winning coaches not in the hall of fame. Also factor in he took Jax as an expansion team to the AFC Championship.
However, it's clear that the process requires you to be buddies with the media to a degree. If you're not well-liked by the voters, your case had better be airtight, and I don't think Coughlin is quite airtight yet.
You have to be out of the game for a while before you become eligible. Might be shorter for coaches, but the next vote isn't until after the season. No way possible way for him to get in today.
You have to be out of the game for a while before you become eligible. Might be shorter for coaches, but the next vote isn't until after the season. No way possible way for him to get in today.
Hades, I believe that implicit in the OP is that 5 years have passed, but there's no more body of work beyond 2014
You have to be out of the game for a while before you become eligible. Might be shorter for coaches, but the next vote isn't until after the season. No way possible way for him to get in today.
Me thinks your sort of missing the point here entirely.
Anyway, to answer the OP... I'd be shocked if he didn't get in by his 2nd opportunity. He built Jacksonville into a competitor quicker than anyone has ever done so with an expansion team. Then he won a pair of Super Bowls. He has everything. Rings, longevity, respect, and track records with multiple teams.
Absolutely a Hall of Famer.
RE: Not true about the two-time SB winners though.
Jimmy Johnson, Tom Flores and George Seifert all have two and are not in.
They didn't go to FOUR championship games
Oh, you weren't addressing my post..Carry on..:)
Haha no problem. Quite frankly, Marv Levy should've opened the door to all the two-time Super Bowl winners. With fairly even amounts of talent, Jimmy Johnson and Tom Coughlin could coach the pants off Marv Levy.
is an interesting case. With the Niners, he coached 8 years, made the playoffs 7 times, won the SB twice and lost in the Championship game 3 times.
But on the flipside, he was always coaching under the impression he rode Walsh's coat tails. Frankly, that's a hard argument to support when a guy is somewhere 8 years.
But, it didn't help that he's pretty much a football recluse these days and his stint in Carolina was disasterous.
with Seifert he basically inherited a hall of fame team
is an interesting case. With the Niners, he coached 8 years, made the playoffs 7 times, won the SB twice and lost in the Championship game 3 times.
But on the flipside, he was always coaching under the impression he rode Walsh's coat tails. Frankly, that's a hard argument to support when a guy is somewhere 8 years.
But, it didn't help that he's pretty much a football recluse these days and his stint in Carolina was disasterous.
That said, I'd have no problem with him being in a realistic mix for the HOF
...if he did walk away today, I'm not sure he would get a lot of support from the Giants fans. Parcells wasn't the most popular guy when he surprised everyone and walked away from here.
I wouldn't..He effectively did shit after Elway left in '98..Actually, I think Flores was a better coach..He never received the press he should have, imo
I know Coughlin is very well respected in the coaching community
Is a pretty decent comparison actually. 2 Super Bowls, 3 conference title games for Johnson, 4 for Coughlin. And although not an expansion team, obviously, Johnson had little talent and dumped most of the Cowboys roster and had to build it up from scratch. Coughlin built the Jaguars from scratch and had them in the AFC Championship in year two, beating the one seed on the road.
Johnson is not in. One thing I'd say is a major difference though, is Johnson did not have the level of success Coughlin had in his second NFL job. Coughlin has succeeded tremendously with the Giants, Johnson did not with the Dolphins.
I think Coughlin is a hall of famer. That would be my vote. It's going to be close though. I don't doubt that there will be plenty who vote, who won't vote for him for whatever reason.
I think Coughlin is likely and has a better shot than Eli.
Coughlin was on SB winning staff (SB XXV Giants) and his time at Jacksonville has to count in his favor.
We had the debate after the SBXLII victory and most thought he'd need a second ring. He is very close if not over the hump. J. Johnson, Flores and Seifert not in does lower my expectations though.
I think Coughlin is admired and respected by all who work with him including the media. The man is a straight shooter who is the epitome of the word integrity. I think there are media who do not like the way he deals (or dealt) with them but that's different than saying they dislike him because he's dishonest or sleazy, something that fits the bill with some other coaches.
It's only 2 conference title games for Johnson. Also of course Coughlin's Jaguars team humiliated Johnson's Dolphins team in the playoffs. Wasn't it like 65-7 or something like that. I forgot to add that part when comparing the two.
wins as a HC I'd consider the ring he won in 1990 with the Giants as WR coach.
I'd do this for all candidates.
When people talk Belichick he gets consideration for the rings he has as a DC. Heck he had a boat named 5 rings (3 as a head coach, 2 as a DC) - which he might rename this off-season.
I agree btw..Forget the 2 wins over Belichick/Brady..
The deciding factor for enshrinement (if it is somehow a close vote), could be the 18-0 Pats, who many in the media crowned the best of all time (or would have been were it not for us in XLII) ..The same media perhaps, who will be voting..
He took an expansion team to the championship game in his 2nd year, whether you or anyone else believe his expansion draft was the best ever given to an expansion HC
RE: No voters are going to give a shit about his tenure in Jacksonville
The fact that the underdog Giants went 2-0 in Super Bowls against the best team of the era, with one of the best coaches of all time, means that he'll get in. If he doesn't get in before Belichick, BB will lobby hard for TC out of respect.
against him for the lack of consistent success, and that the 2 SBs in NY were blips and 'lucky'(twice), and forget his Jville success.
He needs another SB win, with no SB loses, and walk away with the Giants arrow up.
Same arguments vs Eli.
Dom Capers also took the Panthers to the NFC title game in his second
To a certain extent, sure, but ultimately his time with the Giants is what will get him in or not. No one is going to say "Well, you know, I was on the fence regarding his tenure in NY with the two championships, but man, what he did in Jacksonville really put him over the top!" Won't happen.
-At Syracuse, played alongside Larry Csonka and Floyd Little. In 1967 set the school's all time single season pass recieving record.
-Won a Superbowl as an Assistant Coach in 1990
-Went back to BC as a head coach and completely turned the program around, capping it off by beating an undeafeated Notre Dame (number one in the country) 41-39 in 1993.
-Became the first ever coach AND GM in Jacksonville, making them the the most successful expansion team ever. Took the team to the AFC Championship in only their second season in existence.
-Named NFL Coach Of The Year in 1996.
-Took them to another AFC Championship in 1999 with a 14-2 record.
-Won the Superbowl with the Giants in only his 4th year with the team, then kept the run going starting the next season with an 11-1 record.
-Won it again with the Giants just four years later, in what was practically a mirror image of a "once in a lifetime" run.
-164 Career Regular Season Wins.
-3 Superbowl Rings, 2 as a head coach, 4 Championship Game appearances as a head coach, 1 Coach Of The Year Award.
Coughlin is one of the more impressive people I've ever seen associated with the game. I can't recall a situation in any sport where someone at Coughlin's age with his previous accomplishments having the courage and self-awareness to look in the mirror and adjust the way he conducts himself as a leader. He would have had every reason to believe he was doing things the right way and retire (or be let go) in the late 2000s with a fine career... one that included a ring as an assistant.
But he didn't do that like 99.99% of us would. He challenged himself to be better, and because of that, he went from a hell of a football coach to one who I believe will be enshrined in the Hall.
Who are the head coaches of the past decade or so that are going?
Tom Coughlin is right up there with Belichick, and quite frankly, I think it will play into the voting that Coughlin beat Belichick twice in the Superbowl.
What other coaches of the past ten years or so are more deserving than Tom Coughlin?
I don't think he NEEDS another ring, or even a Super Bowl appearance, but another playoff win or two would be nice, along with the expected stat-padding.
let's give the full picture of what TC did in Jax....
4 titles versus 2. I don't think the head to head is going to matter as much as overall outcomes.
Belichick also is in the playoffs every year, and I believe we all know how rare a Giants playoff appearance has been lately.
While I agree with you that Belichick has a significantly better resume than Coughlin and it's not close, I don't think there's another coach in the NFL you could argue has had a better career than Coughlin.
This is admittedly without much thought, but off the top of my head I think Coughlin is #2... yes, a very distant #2.
it isn't just about SB appearances. It is about compiling wins and having milestones.
2 AFC Championship games are milestones as is taking an expansion team there. It isn't like he'll be up for a vote in 2089 when people might not know where the London Jaguars relocated from or what their origins are.
are so much older than guys like John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin it's hard to compare resumes. Even Shaun Payton (scandal notwithstanding) has a long time to catch up to those guys.
Heck, Mike Tomlin can coach the next 25 years and be younger than Coughlin is now. LOL.
When compared to his contemporaries, I think Coughlin gets in - Belichick, Coughlin from this era - like Parcells, Gibbs, Walsh from the 80's.
RE: then that's exactly what's wrong with the Hall of Fame
I didn't compare their careers. You asked me to give you a Hall of Fame coach who has missed the playoffs as much as Coughlin recently has... I just gave you 3.
Are you sure? I see one 6 season stretch to start his career and then 4 of 5 at the end.
When I said two separate seasons, I meant one of each. So one 6 game stretch and then the 4 out of 5 stretch.
This is dumb though because I'm not comparing their careers. Greg asked for a coach who's in the Hall and has had similar stretches of missing the playoffs and I gave him 3... one of which being way worse than any stretch Coughlin has had (Halas). I was simply answering a question with a fact, not comparing anything.
I think Britt in VA summed it up nicely. I would only add his ability to identify when he is doing something wrong and the willingness to accept that and correct it. His dedication to being the best he can be at his craft is also a trait in TC I admire greatly. I have no doubt he will be in the hall of fame.
There were no "playoffs" for most of Halas' coaching career - you either won your division and played in the NFL title game or your season was done.
Chuck Noll and Tom Landry's accomplishments easily outweigh their end of career struggles. Coughlin? That's much more questionable, when you're talking about a guy whose calling card is two championships and one of them was probably the biggest fluke team in NFL history....which is borne out by the fact that they barely squeaked into the playoffs in the first place and didn't make the playoffs in the two seasons before nor the three seasons since.
1990 Giants won a Super Bowl with a backup QB. The 2011 Giants wouldn't have won 4 games without Eli Manning. They were a mediocre at best team who were carried by a QB who played the best ball of his career down the stretch.
stack up Landry vs. TC? Landry also only has 2 SB wins and was coach of the year twice.
And ironically, Landry is also partially remembered for taking the expansion Cowboys to success in a fairly quick fashion.
There are actually a lot of parallels between the two, including having stretches that weren't highly successful.
Well, for starters Landry won 250 games at a much higher winning percentage. He coached in 2 NFL championship games, 5 Super Bowls and 10 NFC title games. He made a winner of an expansion team back before the NFL bent over backwards and broke its own rules to help them, as they did for Carolina and Jacksonville.
Tom Coughlin's career is a pale shadow of Landry's, frankly.
but when you compare him to a HOF coach and he meets several of the same milestones, it actually supports the view TC should be in. You look at some of the coaches in the Hall and TC has better milestones (or equal) than many of them:
George Allen
Weeb Ewbank
Bud Grant
Marv Levy
Bill Parcells
Hank Stram
Like it or not, longevity plays a role in HOF discussions because it leads to compilation of stats. Having a high #of wins coupled with postseason success will get TC in the Hall.
There were no "playoffs" for most of Halas' coaching career - you either won your division and played in the NFL title game or your season was done.
Chuck Noll and Tom Landry's accomplishments easily outweigh their end of career struggles. Coughlin? That's much more questionable, when you're talking about a guy whose calling card is two championships and one of them was probably the biggest fluke team in NFL history....which is borne out by the fact that they barely squeaked into the playoffs in the first place and didn't make the playoffs in the two seasons before nor the three seasons since.
1990 Giants won a Super Bowl with a backup QB. The 2011 Giants wouldn't have won 4 games without Eli Manning. They were a mediocre at best team who were carried by a QB who played the best ball of his career down the stretch.
There are NEVER, EVER fluke teams when you win a SB..All teams have breaks go for them and against them..Even the dynasty teams have what you would term flukes(Brady Tuck rule to avoid elimination and the first SB for Brady, Packers benefiting playoff-wise in 2010 from Giants Philly meltdown and tons more)..Not a credible argument given how luck one has to be to get to a Sb regardless of talent..
the problem is (and I already stated it wasn't that close) is you're crossing eras. It's a double-edged sword.
Coaches today have it hard with the free agency era and post-CBA restrictions.
Coaches then had it harder because of a lack of free agency (you draft poorly too bad) and players didn't get paid well
this era I think most people agree is harder to coach in or at least sustain greatness in.
Which is what makes Belichick stand out even more, even if it's in a Barry Bonds kind of way.
Coughlin deserves the HOF not because of how he compares with Landry or Lombardi, but because of how he compares with Lovie Smith and Tony Dungy, and even Andy Reid, John Fox, Jim Harbaugh, etc...pretty much all his contemporaries except Belichick and the guys it doesn't make sense to compare him to (yet) like Tomlin and John Harbaugh
Greg, you could call Coughlin "fluky" or you could take the glass half-full approach and say that he did a great job coaching teams that probably were the fifth or sixth most-talented in the league (to be generous) to championships.
The "missing the playoffs six of last seven years" refrain would make sense if you think there's other coaches (besides Belichick) who could have done better given our personnel deficiencies over that time. I'm not saying Coughlin doesn't take responsibility for team performance, I'm just not sure anyone could have done much more given the cavalcade of bad roster decisions and injuries.
Things that exceed records. TC has been the face of the Giants in a way that's not limited to his record. I think that matters.
I am some sixty years a fan, and when TC goes a big part of Giant lore goes, and frankly I think my rooting interst will take a hit.
Stuff like that matters, 'cause I know I'm not the only one. Character counts and if Bill Clinton was coaching I'd say "NO" on my ballot.
on the HOF site, the first line is "Reversed the fortunes of 4 NFL teams".
I'm pretty sure voters take into account TC's record in Jax. Unless you want to say Parcells only was inducted because of 2SB's with the Giants, but that kind of makes the argument for TC too?
Put it this way - Parcells never had another SB win with anyone but the Giants and he never had an above .500 playoff record with any other team. To think voters won't take into account Jax is like saying they didn't take into account Parcells elsewhere.
The Parcells Giants were my favorite teams of all time, any sport, and no one else comes close.
I somewhat get it and agree...Parcells took a Giants team that was basically a bunch of cream puffs (and, according to rumors, full of coke heads), and turned them into the toughest team in football.
It seemed Parcells spent a lot of time reading and re-reading his press clippings in the years after that, and I haven't always been his biggest fan since.
Credit where due though, he did turn the Jets, Patriots and Cowboys into contenders after he left the Giants.
I'm sure Jerry Jones has conveniently forgotten that it was Parcells who promoted a then-no name Romo to QB over Bledsoe
The Parcells Giants were my favorite teams of all time, any sport, and no one else comes close.
Parcells was one of my faves also..In fairness, I would have loved to see what TC would have done in that non-FA period where you could hold on to great talent as he and others were able to do..Obviously we will never know
what Coughlin has going for him is the guy did a good job in Jacksonville before he won the two rings in NY.
Bottom line is Coughlin has the better resume than guys like JJ, Flores and Seifert. And he also has the sexiest super bowl win of all time. Then backed that up and beat the same legendary fuckwad team 4 years later.
If Coughlin doesn't get in, then what the voters are saying is you only get to Canton as a coach if you post a completely ridiculous career resume. Coughlin wasn't perfect but his career reeks of excellence. Excellence should get you into Canton.
When you add to that what he accomplished with the Jags it is a slam dunk.
He took a expansion team and built them into a playoff team in year two. Something I don't think any other coach has ever come close to doing. They also made the playoff in four of their first five seasons capping it off in year five with a 14 win divisional title - AFC championship game season.
RE: Even if he had only coached the Giants I would say yes, but then
When you add to that what he accomplished with the Jags it is a slam dunk.
He took a expansion team and built them into a playoff team in year two. Something I don't think any other coach has ever come close to doing. They also made the playoff in four of their first five seasons capping it off in year five with a 14 win divisional title - AFC championship game season.
Dom Capers, who was TC's "counterpart" with the Panthers, brought them to the playoffs in year 2 as well.
When you add to that what he accomplished with the Jags it is a slam dunk.
He took a expansion team and built them into a playoff team in year two. Something I don't think any other coach has ever come close to doing. They also made the playoff in four of their first five seasons capping it off in year five with a 14 win divisional title - AFC championship game season.
Dom Capers, who was TC's "counterpart" with the Panthers, brought them to the playoffs in year 2 as well.
I forgot he got them their as quickly. I guess since they kind of fell back down after that season it was more forgettable than what Coughlin built with the Jags. You are right though I oversold the historical aspect of the two years to make the playoffs.
RE: Parcells' teams were alot more consistent than this era's Giants.
Also won a SB with a back-up QB in the '90 season.
I guess you missed my post..Parcells had his players, core players, for most of, or all of, his entire tenure in the era of non-FA..Of course he and other good to great HCs were going to be more consistent in the main..Save for Belichick and a few others perhaps, FA doesn't allow for long term consistency similar to the luxury of tge '80s..And oh btw, even with all that great talent on D, we still screwed the pooch in '88 and '89..
Should bw in dc come on here fellating Parcells and knocking TC, just know that he's on record after each SB win by TC of saying TC was mediocre to average..:)
he steered the ship that sunk the mighty Patriots - and the only team to do so - in the Super Bowl Twice -- that alone will get him there and that alone is a terrific story - it's totally great history and will read well in the Hall of Fame annals - but Coughlin is so much more than that - what he did in Jacksonville was also awesome -- he gave that brand new franchise instant credibility - and those teams were famous for their lack of quit - he also turned the Giants around from a moribund team that was gasping for breath under Jim Fassel and righted the ship --
Coughlin is a great coach and the Hall Fame would be getting it wrong not to see him in!
Should bw in dc come on here fellating Parcells and knocking TC, just know that he's on record after each SB win by TC of saying TC was mediocre to average..:)
Ok, as you were
Those early years after Dan Synder first bought the Skins he also used to say how Snyder was a good owner and the type we (Giants) needed in order to win when constantly knocking Wellington Mara. Of course he wasn't alone, there were many here that were fans of Snyder's ownership "style" early on.
it has more to do with their legacy to the game and their coaching trees. I'm not about to declare Harbaugh or Tomilson HOF worthy if they both win another super bowl in the next few years either. And both would have TC's criteria.
Should bw in dc come on here fellating Parcells and knocking TC, just know that he's on record after each SB win by TC of saying TC was mediocre to average..:)
Ok, as you were
Those early years after Dan Synder first bought the Skins he also used to say how Snyder was a good owner and the type we (Giants) needed in order to win when constantly knocking Wellington Mara. Of course he wasn't alone, there were many here that were fans of Snyder's ownership "style" early on.
that would be interesting to evaluate is for each HOF coach, which have a legitimate record of revolutionizing the game through some type of innovation?
How would TC stack up there against Landry (flex defense, stats based game, Walsh et al)
RE: Nope. From what I seen HCs that get in the HOF
it has more to do with their legacy to the game and their coaching trees. I'm not about to declare Harbaugh or Tomilson HOF worthy if they both win another super bowl in the next few years either. And both would have TC's criteria.
This will be Coughlin's 20th season as an NFL head coach. Harbaugh and Tomlin will have 8 and 9 respectively after this season.
Coughlin has 164 career wins. Harbaugh and Tomlin have 77 and 82 respectively.
If the Giants go only 8-8 this season Coughlin ties Parcells with 172 wins which places him in the top ten of all time.
Coughlin also has a Super Bowl ring as an assistant NFL coach.
Plus you have to add what he accomplished in Jacksonville as well to his tenure in the league.
Harbaugh and Tomlin have a very long way to go equaling what Coughlin has accomplished even if they were to win a second championship.
RE: RE: Parcells' teams were alot more consistent than this era's Giants.
Also won a SB with a back-up QB in the '90 season.
I guess you missed my post..Parcells had his players, core players, for most of, or all of, his entire tenure in the era of non-FA..Of course he and other good to great HCs were going to be more consistent in the main..Save for Belichick and a few others perhaps, FA doesn't allow for long term consistency similar to the luxury of tge '80s..And oh btw, even with all that great talent on D, we still screwed the pooch in '88 and '89..
I saw it. Doesn't change my opinion, though. Having those players doesn't guarantee anything. Things get even swayed more in the other direction when you navigate through an entire post-season with your back-up QB and a defense that wasn't the same defense as the dominant '86 squad and STILL win the entire thing, though, IMO, of course. ;)
Starting from his playing days at SU. I think he is borderline. As I recall Mara used that term when the season ended. And no way he rates with Parcells. Only Bill's itinerant ways prevented him from winning Super Bowls with the Patriots, Jets & , heaven forbid, Dallas.
The last 3 years have diminished Tom's career no doubt. It has not been his fault. The roster went bad. But he still gets charged with the record. He is greatly respected by those who have been in the league, especially by both Parcells & Belichick. And he remains in the top 5 of current coaches in the polls I have seen. Still, if he loses again this year, he is gone. And if it is his final year coaching, which is not necessarily a given, then I think he won't be voted in.
Also won a SB with a back-up QB in the '90 season.
Parcells' teams were better and more consistent than the Giants of the past three years. However, if you compare the first eight years of both careers with the Giants, the records are much more similar.
-Rough first year (3-12-1 vs. 6-10)
-3 straight playoff appearances, culminating with a Super Bowl win
-A 10-6 season where they missed the playoffs and a 12-4 season where they lost a heartbreaker playoff game at home
-An underdog Super Bowl win in year 8.
Parcells has a slight edge in terms of wins (84 vs. 82, including playoffs), but their records are remarkably similar. One could easily argue that the main difference between Parcells and Coughlin is that Parcells knew when it was time to bail on a team that was getting old while Coughlin stuck around.
Is after leaving the Giants, he took over 3 teams that had been absolute jokes and made them playoff teams. He simply left each too early to see the job through. Buf such is to digress. I remember signing an Orange Pack petition sent to the AD to have Syracuse name him HC after Maloney told everyone he was leaving to be the ticket manager of the Cubs. Hurley, Art Monk, Joe Morris 1979. There is no bigger Coughlin fan in the world than me. I hope he gets in regardless. But I think he is borderline.
because he hasnt been consistent enough as a coach for the Giants. His teams have been up and down.. If he wins another SB then yes..
Oh so three super bowl wins is enough for you?? Oh really? How nice.
Not consistent enough? 2 fucking Super Bowls, 3 division titles and 5 playoff appearances over a ten year period is the very embodiment of consistent. They've had a rough 2 years running -- it happens to the best of em but coughlin isn't the reason why they have lost and everyone knows that.
Good points but where have you guys been on Giants' boards the last couple of seasons when Coughlin has been getting lit up?
Gets lonely defending Coach. Know what I mean?
probably the biggest fluke team in NFL history....
Fluke? I assume you mean XLII but the Giants beat the Pats fair and square. Don't believe me, fine, but Rodney Harrison said as much in that Spike Lee movie about The Catch. That Super Bowl run was a terrific example of why TC is a great coach.
TC is definitely a HOF HC. He's a two time HC Super Bowl Champion, and a winner at multiple levels with multiple teams across a long period of time. The man has character and integrity second to no one.
Just called to congratulate you and your team for a great effort last night. Not good, but great. I think it's one of the best things to happen in the NFL in the last ten years, and I don't know if they all know it, but they should be very grateful to you and your team for what you did. I believe so firmly in this: that there is only one way to play the game, and it is a regular season game and you go out and win the darn game. I was just so proud being a part of the NFL and of what your guys did and the way you did it. You proved that it's a game and there's only one way to play the game and you did it. The NFL needed it. We've gotten too much of, "Well, they're going to rest their players and don't need to win, therefore they won't win." Well, that's not sports and that's not competition. I'm a little emotional about it. I'm just so proud. It's something we all need to thank you for, and I believe the NFL needed that.
-John Madden
That's the day after the Giants loss the "meaningless" week 17 game against the Pats, who moved to 16-0 at the time.
Things that exceed records. TC has been the face of the Giants in a way that's not limited to his record. I think that matters.
I am some sixty years a fan, and when TC goes a big part of Giant lore goes, and frankly I think my rooting interst will take a hit.
Stuff like that matters, 'cause I know I'm not the only one. Character counts and if Bill Clinton was coaching I'd say "NO" on my ballot.
I agree Grizz. It's going to be tough to see Tom retire. I think he makes the hall of fame just because how hard he works. All the stats, wins, and Championships are just extras.
Things that exceed records. TC has been the face of the Giants in a way that's not limited to his record. I think that matters.
I am some sixty years a fan, and when TC goes a big part of Giant lore goes, and frankly I think my rooting interst will take a hit.
Stuff like that matters, 'cause I know I'm not the only one. Character counts and if Bill Clinton was coaching I'd say "NO" on my ballot.
I agree Grizz. It's going to be tough to see Tom retire. I think he makes the hall of fame just because how hard he works. All the stats, wins, and Championships are just extras.
I agree with this, and I bet he's held in much, MUCH higher regard among his peers and the voters than he is by most fans.
Things that exceed records. TC has been the face of the Giants in a way that's not limited to his record. I think that matters.
I am some sixty years a fan, and when TC goes a big part of Giant lore goes, and frankly I think my rooting interst will take a hit.
Stuff like that matters, 'cause I know I'm not the only one. Character counts and if Bill Clinton was coaching I'd say "NO" on my ballot.
I agree Grizz. It's going to be tough to see Tom retire. I think he makes the hall of fame just because how hard he works. All the stats, wins, and Championships are just extras.
I agree with this, and I bet he's held in much, MUCH higher regard among his peers and the voters than he is by most fans.
Yes, I've been surprised as to how revered/respected he is around the league amongst his peers and execs..The Jax's first owner, Weaver, has been quoted as saying that letting TC go was his biggest mistake
have lacked consistency, sure they won some big games but throughout Coughlin's tenure here we fans never knew what team would show up on sunday and thats what will keep him out of the HOF...
Actually, Tom Coughlin's teams have been pretty consistent...
What did he make the playoffs, 5 years in a row from 2005-2010, and then again in 2011? So 6 out of 7 years? Since then, they've "consistently" been out of the playoffs, three years in a row.
They are also prone to being streaky in season, regularly winning 4-6 games in a row, and then conversely losing 4 in a row in season.
Additionally, didn't we start 6-2 pretty much every single season he was here, from 2004 until 2012?
don't know consistency vs. the compilation of stats. There are a lot of players in the HOF who had mediocre or down years, but their overall body of work was impressive.
George Allen is in the HOF without a single SB win. But he was known for taking teams who were bad and turning them around. He also had years where his teams were mediocre.
Bud Grant never won a SB and some people think he underachieved with teams. But he's in the HOF.
Most coaches in there accumulated wins and/or Championships. That's exactly what TC has done, too.
Voters might look at tangible stats like the number of .500 and above years, the number of playoff years and the number of SB wins/losses, but consistency? Probably not even part of the conversation. Mainly because a lot of the hall voters don't follow the game as closely as fans of individual teams.
that inconsistency isn't really a TC trademark when you look at his record, both overall and individual seasons. If anything, the guy is darn consistent in producing teams winning at .500 or greater.
have lacked consistency, sure they won some big games but throughout Coughlin's tenure here we fans never knew what team would show up on sunday and thats what will keep him out of the HOF...
I guess you could classify "big games" as Superbowls, but sells it a little short.
Why are so many making Parcells record some sort of benchmark
You can be consistently mediocre. But that isn't a goal. Consistently top-notch? Good luck with that but let me remind you that there are teams that have never won a Championship. Never. You get 2 under one coach and that isn't a coincidence--especially under a team built under that coach--not handed a team ala Switzer.
I think he is another coach whose SB record is viewed as one of a coach that inherited a really good team for those SB's. In comparison TC took a team and built it.
RE: Actually, Tom Coughlin's teams have been pretty consistent...
What did he make the playoffs, 5 years in a row from 2005-2010, and then again in 2011? So 6 out of 7 years? Since then, they've "consistently" been out of the playoffs, three years in a row.
They are also prone to being streaky in season, regularly winning 4-6 games in a row, and then conversely losing 4 in a row in season.
Additionally, didn't we start 6-2 pretty much every single season he was here, from 2004 until 2012?
What's your definition of consistency?
What is almost always conveniently glossed over was our 10-6 record in 2010 which wasn't good enough to make playoffs..It EASILY could have been(should have been) 11-5..So yes, we didn't make the playoffs and that is "counted" as a missed year by many here
We make it one year at 9-7 and don't at 10-6 go figure
have lacked consistency, sure they won some big games but throughout Coughlin's tenure here we fans never knew what team would show up on sunday and thats what will keep him out of the HOF...
If the Giants were any better they'd be by far the 2nd best team in the NFL over the last 10 years. As is they are the 3rd best next to Pitt and the Pats. IF you're gonna put some other team ahead of NYG over the last 10 it's not gonna be based on super wins or appearances. How can we put any team not named Pitt or NE over NYG? WHo is that team? Ravens? Only one title. Niners? No titles. Colts? One title. Saints...ditto. Packers come close...but just one.
So you're saying the Giants haven't been consistent enough. They are already the 3rd most successful franchise since 05! Even with the last 2 years of shit...they are still 3rd when you add up the regular season and postseason wins.
Compare the Giants to every other NFL team not named Pitt or the Pats. Then talk to me about consistency.
have lacked consistency, sure they won some big games but throughout Coughlin's tenure here we fans never knew what team would show up on sunday and thats what will keep him out of the HOF...
If the Giants were any better they'd be by far the 2nd best team in the NFL over the last 10 years. As is they are the 3rd best next to Pitt and the Pats. IF you're gonna put some other team ahead of NYG over the last 10 it's not gonna be based on super wins or appearances. How can we put any team not named Pitt or NE over NYG? WHo is that team? Ravens? Only one title. Niners? No titles. Colts? One title. Saints...ditto. Packers come close...but just one.
So you're saying the Giants haven't been consistent enough. They are already the 3rd most successful franchise since 05! Even with the last 2 years of shit...they are still 3rd when you add up the regular season and postseason wins.
Compare the Giants to every other NFL team not named Pitt or the Pats. Then talk to me about consistency.
Sometimes people make it seem as though they'd prefer to have the 'consistency' of the packers/saints/colts/etc... over the 'inconsistency' of TC teams despite us having more titles during that time.
Don't know finishing out with losing records and missing playoffs would put a little damper on it. Also, consistency taken into account, which he hasn't been so.
TC's career as Giants head coach seem to be in the eyes of the beholder
and Giant fans either love him or not so much, I think he's a good coach but not more than that as for those SB wins, we were damned lucky in both of them
Hades, I believe that implicit in the OP is that 5 years have passed, but there's no more body of work beyond 2014
Me thinks your sort of missing the point here entirely.
Anyway, to answer the OP... I'd be shocked if he didn't get in by his 2nd opportunity. He built Jacksonville into a competitor quicker than anyone has ever done so with an expansion team. Then he won a pair of Super Bowls. He has everything. Rings, longevity, respect, and track records with multiple teams.
Absolutely a Hall of Famer.
They didn't go to FOUR championship games
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Jimmy Johnson, Tom Flores and George Seifert all have two and are not in.
They didn't go to FOUR championship games
Oh, you weren't addressing my post..Carry on..:)
Greg, I hear you, but I think he is..Just not necessarily a slam dunk first ballot, imo..Perhaps he will be
Ok murderer, my bad..
:)
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In comment 12300841 bceagle05 said:
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Jimmy Johnson, Tom Flores and George Seifert all have two and are not in.
They didn't go to FOUR championship games
Oh, you weren't addressing my post..Carry on..:)
Haha no problem. Quite frankly, Marv Levy should've opened the door to all the two-time Super Bowl winners. With fairly even amounts of talent, Jimmy Johnson and Tom Coughlin could coach the pants off Marv Levy.
But on the flipside, he was always coaching under the impression he rode Walsh's coat tails. Frankly, that's a hard argument to support when a guy is somewhere 8 years.
But, it didn't help that he's pretty much a football recluse these days and his stint in Carolina was disasterous.
But on the flipside, he was always coaching under the impression he rode Walsh's coat tails. Frankly, that's a hard argument to support when a guy is somewhere 8 years.
But, it didn't help that he's pretty much a football recluse these days and his stint in Carolina was disasterous.
That said, I'd have no problem with him being in a realistic mix for the HOF
I wouldn't..He effectively did shit after Elway left in '98..Actually, I think Flores was a better coach..He never received the press he should have, imo
IMO, no doubt, but I can't deny a little hometown bias
It's not just 2 Super Bowl titles though. It's beating Brady and Belichik in the Super Bowl twice. That gets extra credit.
Shanahan falls into that camp, IMO.
Johnson is not in. One thing I'd say is a major difference though, is Johnson did not have the level of success Coughlin had in his second NFL job. Coughlin has succeeded tremendously with the Giants, Johnson did not with the Dolphins.
I think Coughlin is a hall of famer. That would be my vote. It's going to be close though. I don't doubt that there will be plenty who vote, who won't vote for him for whatever reason.
Coughlin was on SB winning staff (SB XXV Giants) and his time at Jacksonville has to count in his favor.
We had the debate after the SBXLII victory and most thought he'd need a second ring. He is very close if not over the hump. J. Johnson, Flores and Seifert not in does lower my expectations though.
I'd do this for all candidates.
When people talk Belichick he gets consideration for the rings he has as a DC. Heck he had a boat named 5 rings (3 as a head coach, 2 as a DC) - which he might rename this off-season.
Plus, what he did with an expansion franchise in JAX.
And by all accounts, TC is leader.
Not much more you can ask from a head coach. Plus he's up there in wins.
I think longevity comes into play for all these cases.
And ith Seifert....right or wrong, I think most see it as Bill Walsh's teams.
Right or wrong, it's Al Davis' Raiders, no doubt.
JJ did a masterful job of building the Cowboys.....but didn't even coach 10 years.
But is there anything else? A leadership style, a character trait that elevates him above a very capable coach?
LOL...well I think you're flat out wrong.
It will be surely brought up the day he goes in.
He needs another SB win, with no SB loses, and walk away with the Giants arrow up.
Same arguments vs Eli.
Jacksonville won nothing, not even an AFC title game, and went 7-9/6-10/6-10 in Coughlin's last three seasons. Completely irrelevent.
I have no idea why you'd believe that. The hall of fame voters certainly consider a player or a coach's entire body of work.
That's true. Although Coughlin has a lot more wins than those guys.
Not sure if Coughlin makes it.
Part of that compilation is taking an expansion team to a championship game and the wins he amassed there.
It most certainly will matter.
If he wins another SB title here? 1st ballot.
If you don't think voters will look at that too, you're not being realistic.
The two SBs are paramount, but this backs up the fact he is damn good football man.
-Won a Superbowl as an Assistant Coach in 1990
-Went back to BC as a head coach and completely turned the program around, capping it off by beating an undeafeated Notre Dame (number one in the country) 41-39 in 1993.
-Became the first ever coach AND GM in Jacksonville, making them the the most successful expansion team ever. Took the team to the AFC Championship in only their second season in existence.
-Named NFL Coach Of The Year in 1996.
-Took them to another AFC Championship in 1999 with a 14-2 record.
-Won the Superbowl with the Giants in only his 4th year with the team, then kept the run going starting the next season with an 11-1 record.
-Won it again with the Giants just four years later, in what was practically a mirror image of a "once in a lifetime" run.
-164 Career Regular Season Wins.
-3 Superbowl Rings, 2 as a head coach, 4 Championship Game appearances as a head coach, 1 Coach Of The Year Award.
Add that to his accomplishments in New York and it's a stone cold lock.
it's not about the bad, it's about the good with coaches.
I think Coughlin is basically a lock, while Eli maybe as a 1-in-3 chance if he never wins a Championship again.
If he gets another one then he is in as well.
But he didn't do that like 99.99% of us would. He challenged himself to be better, and because of that, he went from a hell of a football coach to one who I believe will be enshrined in the Hall.
Tom Coughlin is right up there with Belichick, and quite frankly, I think it will play into the voting that Coughlin beat Belichick twice in the Superbowl.
What other coaches of the past ten years or so are more deserving than Tom Coughlin?
4-12
9-7
11-5
11-5
14-2
Two conf champ appearances.
That's some damn good winning.
Don't think Dom Capers was doing that..............
Belichick also is in the playoffs every year, and I believe we all know how rare a Giants playoff appearance has been lately.
4-12
9-7
11-5
11-5
14-2
Two conf champ appearances.
That's some damn good winning.
Don't think Dom Capers was doing that..............
And not so much as one Super Bowl appearance, so, again, fairly irrelevent.
Belichick also is in the playoffs every year, and I believe we all know how rare a Giants playoff appearance has been lately.
While I agree with you that Belichick has a significantly better resume than Coughlin and it's not close, I don't think there's another coach in the NFL you could argue has had a better career than Coughlin.
This is admittedly without much thought, but off the top of my head I think Coughlin is #2... yes, a very distant #2.
Belichick also is in the playoffs every year, and I believe we all know how rare a Giants playoff appearance has been lately.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there's Belichick, then there is Coughlin, then who else?
Who else has a resume that even touches what either of those guys have done over their career?
2 AFC Championship games are milestones as is taking an expansion team there. It isn't like he'll be up for a vote in 2089 when people might not know where the London Jaguars relocated from or what their origins are.
Is that how you think this works? Is there some minimum of coaches that must go into the HOF?
Is that how you think this works? Is there some minimum of coaches that must go into the HOF?
Great, that's part of how it works, absolutely. If you're the 2nd best coach of your generation, that is certainly a relevant factor.
Heck, Mike Tomlin can coach the next 25 years and be younger than Coughlin is now. LOL.
When compared to his contemporaries, I think Coughlin gets in - Belichick, Coughlin from this era - like Parcells, Gibbs, Walsh from the 80's.
I don't know what you mean by this.
2 rings (and another as an assistant)
4 title games
If the Giants go 8-8 or better this year, he moves into the top 10 all time in wins. There's plenty of logic here.
If (when) the Giants miss the playoffs again this year, that will be 6 out of the past 7 seasons. How many HOF coaches have a stretch like that?
If (when) the Giants miss the playoffs again this year, that will be 6 out of the past 7 seasons. How many HOF coaches have a stretch like that?
Greg, c'mon. There's a reason that was in parenthesis. His ring as an assistant certainly was not the point of my post.
That's not what you asked.
"If (when) the Giants miss the playoffs again this year, that will be 6 out of the past 7 seasons. How many HOF coaches have a stretch like that?"
He just answered your question.
Greg... you are way off base on this.
I didn't compare their careers. You asked me to give you a Hall of Fame coach who has missed the playoffs as much as Coughlin recently has... I just gave you 3.
And ironically, Landry is also partially remembered for taking the expansion Cowboys to success in a fairly quick fashion.
There are actually a lot of parallels between the two, including having stretches that weren't highly successful.
Those Jacksonville teams were very good.
He helped 2 9-7 Giant teams WIN SB's against all odds.
And, he was an assistant on the SB XXV team.
Yes.
Are you sure? I see one 6 season stretch to start his career and then 4 of 5 at the end.
Also Landry was 88 games over .500, with 5 conference championships ans 15 division championships.
TC isn't close even with your skewed stats.
When I said two separate seasons, I meant one of each. So one 6 game stretch and then the 4 out of 5 stretch.
This is dumb though because I'm not comparing their careers. Greg asked for a coach who's in the Hall and has had similar stretches of missing the playoffs and I gave him 3... one of which being way worse than any stretch Coughlin has had (Halas). I was simply answering a question with a fact, not comparing anything.
Chuck Noll and Tom Landry's accomplishments easily outweigh their end of career struggles. Coughlin? That's much more questionable, when you're talking about a guy whose calling card is two championships and one of them was probably the biggest fluke team in NFL history....which is borne out by the fact that they barely squeaked into the playoffs in the first place and didn't make the playoffs in the two seasons before nor the three seasons since.
1990 Giants won a Super Bowl with a backup QB. The 2011 Giants wouldn't have won 4 games without Eli Manning. They were a mediocre at best team who were carried by a QB who played the best ball of his career down the stretch.
no question regardless of the circumstances.
All coaches deserve that IMO.
And ironically, Landry is also partially remembered for taking the expansion Cowboys to success in a fairly quick fashion.
There are actually a lot of parallels between the two, including having stretches that weren't highly successful.
Well, for starters Landry won 250 games at a much higher winning percentage. He coached in 2 NFL championship games, 5 Super Bowls and 10 NFC title games. He made a winner of an expansion team back before the NFL bent over backwards and broke its own rules to help them, as they did for Carolina and Jacksonville.
Tom Coughlin's career is a pale shadow of Landry's, frankly.
George Allen
Weeb Ewbank
Bud Grant
Marv Levy
Bill Parcells
Hank Stram
Like it or not, longevity plays a role in HOF discussions because it leads to compilation of stats. Having a high #of wins coupled with postseason success will get TC in the Hall.
Chuck Noll and Tom Landry's accomplishments easily outweigh their end of career struggles. Coughlin? That's much more questionable, when you're talking about a guy whose calling card is two championships and one of them was probably the biggest fluke team in NFL history....which is borne out by the fact that they barely squeaked into the playoffs in the first place and didn't make the playoffs in the two seasons before nor the three seasons since.
1990 Giants won a Super Bowl with a backup QB. The 2011 Giants wouldn't have won 4 games without Eli Manning. They were a mediocre at best team who were carried by a QB who played the best ball of his career down the stretch.
There are NEVER, EVER fluke teams when you win a SB..All teams have breaks go for them and against them..Even the dynasty teams have what you would term flukes(Brady Tuck rule to avoid elimination and the first SB for Brady, Packers benefiting playoff-wise in 2010 from Giants Philly meltdown and tons more)..Not a credible argument given how luck one has to be to get to a Sb regardless of talent..
Coaches today have it hard with the free agency era and post-CBA restrictions.
Coaches then had it harder because of a lack of free agency (you draft poorly too bad) and players didn't get paid well
this era I think most people agree is harder to coach in or at least sustain greatness in.
Which is what makes Belichick stand out even more, even if it's in a Barry Bonds kind of way.
Coughlin deserves the HOF not because of how he compares with Landry or Lombardi, but because of how he compares with Lovie Smith and Tony Dungy, and even Andy Reid, John Fox, Jim Harbaugh, etc...pretty much all his contemporaries except Belichick and the guys it doesn't make sense to compare him to (yet) like Tomlin and John Harbaugh
The "missing the playoffs six of last seven years" refrain would make sense if you think there's other coaches (besides Belichick) who could have done better given our personnel deficiencies over that time. I'm not saying Coughlin doesn't take responsibility for team performance, I'm just not sure anyone could have done much more given the cavalcade of bad roster decisions and injuries.
Which is what makes Belichick stand out even more, even if it's in a Barry Bonds kind of way.
This made me laugh
I am some sixty years a fan, and when TC goes a big part of Giant lore goes, and frankly I think my rooting interst will take a hit.
Stuff like that matters, 'cause I know I'm not the only one. Character counts and if Bill Clinton was coaching I'd say "NO" on my ballot.
I'm pretty sure voters take into account TC's record in Jax. Unless you want to say Parcells only was inducted because of 2SB's with the Giants, but that kind of makes the argument for TC too?
Put it this way - Parcells never had another SB win with anyone but the Giants and he never had an above .500 playoff record with any other team. To think voters won't take into account Jax is like saying they didn't take into account Parcells elsewhere.
We know that isn't true.
I somewhat get it and agree...Parcells took a Giants team that was basically a bunch of cream puffs (and, according to rumors, full of coke heads), and turned them into the toughest team in football.
It seemed Parcells spent a lot of time reading and re-reading his press clippings in the years after that, and I haven't always been his biggest fan since.
Credit where due though, he did turn the Jets, Patriots and Cowboys into contenders after he left the Giants.
I'm sure Jerry Jones has conveniently forgotten that it was Parcells who promoted a then-no name Romo to QB over Bledsoe
Parcells was one of my faves also..In fairness, I would have loved to see what TC would have done in that non-FA period where you could hold on to great talent as he and others were able to do..Obviously we will never know
Bottom line is Coughlin has the better resume than guys like JJ, Flores and Seifert. And he also has the sexiest super bowl win of all time. Then backed that up and beat the same legendary fuckwad team 4 years later.
If Coughlin doesn't get in, then what the voters are saying is you only get to Canton as a coach if you post a completely ridiculous career resume. Coughlin wasn't perfect but his career reeks of excellence. Excellence should get you into Canton.
He took a expansion team and built them into a playoff team in year two. Something I don't think any other coach has ever come close to doing. They also made the playoff in four of their first five seasons capping it off in year five with a 14 win divisional title - AFC championship game season.
He took a expansion team and built them into a playoff team in year two. Something I don't think any other coach has ever come close to doing. They also made the playoff in four of their first five seasons capping it off in year five with a 14 win divisional title - AFC championship game season.
Dom Capers, who was TC's "counterpart" with the Panthers, brought them to the playoffs in year 2 as well.
That's OK though, it's just about that time for us to put it all together again.
And at least to Greg's credit, despite his being a pain in the ass on this subject, he's proven he will eat his crow happily when it happens.
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When you add to that what he accomplished with the Jags it is a slam dunk.
He took a expansion team and built them into a playoff team in year two. Something I don't think any other coach has ever come close to doing. They also made the playoff in four of their first five seasons capping it off in year five with a 14 win divisional title - AFC championship game season.
Dom Capers, who was TC's "counterpart" with the Panthers, brought them to the playoffs in year 2 as well.
I forgot he got them their as quickly. I guess since they kind of fell back down after that season it was more forgettable than what Coughlin built with the Jags. You are right though I oversold the historical aspect of the two years to make the playoffs.
I guess you missed my post..Parcells had his players, core players, for most of, or all of, his entire tenure in the era of non-FA..Of course he and other good to great HCs were going to be more consistent in the main..Save for Belichick and a few others perhaps, FA doesn't allow for long term consistency similar to the luxury of tge '80s..And oh btw, even with all that great talent on D, we still screwed the pooch in '88 and '89..
Ok, as you were
Coughlin is a great coach and the Hall Fame would be getting it wrong not to see him in!
That's my story and I'm sticking to it
Ok, as you were
Those early years after Dan Synder first bought the Skins he also used to say how Snyder was a good owner and the type we (Giants) needed in order to win when constantly knocking Wellington Mara. Of course he wasn't alone, there were many here that were fans of Snyder's ownership "style" early on.
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Should bw in dc come on here fellating Parcells and knocking TC, just know that he's on record after each SB win by TC of saying TC was mediocre to average..:)
Ok, as you were
Those early years after Dan Synder first bought the Skins he also used to say how Snyder was a good owner and the type we (Giants) needed in order to win when constantly knocking Wellington Mara. Of course he wasn't alone, there were many here that were fans of Snyder's ownership "style" early on.
:)
How would TC stack up there against Landry (flex defense, stats based game, Walsh et al)
This will be Coughlin's 20th season as an NFL head coach. Harbaugh and Tomlin will have 8 and 9 respectively after this season.
Coughlin has 164 career wins. Harbaugh and Tomlin have 77 and 82 respectively.
If the Giants go only 8-8 this season Coughlin ties Parcells with 172 wins which places him in the top ten of all time.
Coughlin also has a Super Bowl ring as an assistant NFL coach.
Plus you have to add what he accomplished in Jacksonville as well to his tenure in the league.
Harbaugh and Tomlin have a very long way to go equaling what Coughlin has accomplished even if they were to win a second championship.
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Also won a SB with a back-up QB in the '90 season.
I guess you missed my post..Parcells had his players, core players, for most of, or all of, his entire tenure in the era of non-FA..Of course he and other good to great HCs were going to be more consistent in the main..Save for Belichick and a few others perhaps, FA doesn't allow for long term consistency similar to the luxury of tge '80s..And oh btw, even with all that great talent on D, we still screwed the pooch in '88 and '89..
I saw it. Doesn't change my opinion, though. Having those players doesn't guarantee anything. Things get even swayed more in the other direction when you navigate through an entire post-season with your back-up QB and a defense that wasn't the same defense as the dominant '86 squad and STILL win the entire thing, though, IMO, of course. ;)
We got to watch it happen. They both deserve to be in the HOF.
One being in has nothing to do with whether the other one should be in.
The last 3 years have diminished Tom's career no doubt. It has not been his fault. The roster went bad. But he still gets charged with the record. He is greatly respected by those who have been in the league, especially by both Parcells & Belichick. And he remains in the top 5 of current coaches in the polls I have seen. Still, if he loses again this year, he is gone. And if it is his final year coaching, which is not necessarily a given, then I think he won't be voted in.
Parcells' teams were better and more consistent than the Giants of the past three years. However, if you compare the first eight years of both careers with the Giants, the records are much more similar.
-Rough first year (3-12-1 vs. 6-10)
-3 straight playoff appearances, culminating with a Super Bowl win
-A 10-6 season where they missed the playoffs and a 12-4 season where they lost a heartbreaker playoff game at home
-An underdog Super Bowl win in year 8.
Parcells has a slight edge in terms of wins (84 vs. 82, including playoffs), but their records are remarkably similar. One could easily argue that the main difference between Parcells and Coughlin is that Parcells knew when it was time to bail on a team that was getting old while Coughlin stuck around.
Oh so three super bowl wins is enough for you?? Oh really? How nice.
Not consistent enough? 2 fucking Super Bowls, 3 division titles and 5 playoff appearances over a ten year period is the very embodiment of consistent. They've had a rough 2 years running -- it happens to the best of em but coughlin isn't the reason why they have lost and everyone knows that.
Gets lonely defending Coach. Know what I mean?
I've been defending coughlin since before 07.
Fluke? I assume you mean XLII but the Giants beat the Pats fair and square. Don't believe me, fine, but Rodney Harrison said as much in that Spike Lee movie about The Catch. That Super Bowl run was a terrific example of why TC is a great coach.
TC is definitely a HOF HC. He's a two time HC Super Bowl Champion, and a winner at multiple levels with multiple teams across a long period of time. The man has character and integrity second to no one.
-John Madden
That's the day after the Giants loss the "meaningless" week 17 game against the Pats, who moved to 16-0 at the time.
Same as a certain QB.
I am some sixty years a fan, and when TC goes a big part of Giant lore goes, and frankly I think my rooting interst will take a hit.
Stuff like that matters, 'cause I know I'm not the only one. Character counts and if Bill Clinton was coaching I'd say "NO" on my ballot.
I agree Grizz. It's going to be tough to see Tom retire. I think he makes the hall of fame just because how hard he works. All the stats, wins, and Championships are just extras.
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Things that exceed records. TC has been the face of the Giants in a way that's not limited to his record. I think that matters.
I am some sixty years a fan, and when TC goes a big part of Giant lore goes, and frankly I think my rooting interst will take a hit.
Stuff like that matters, 'cause I know I'm not the only one. Character counts and if Bill Clinton was coaching I'd say "NO" on my ballot.
I agree Grizz. It's going to be tough to see Tom retire. I think he makes the hall of fame just because how hard he works. All the stats, wins, and Championships are just extras.
I agree with this, and I bet he's held in much, MUCH higher regard among his peers and the voters than he is by most fans.
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In comment 12301104 grizz299 said:
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Things that exceed records. TC has been the face of the Giants in a way that's not limited to his record. I think that matters.
I am some sixty years a fan, and when TC goes a big part of Giant lore goes, and frankly I think my rooting interst will take a hit.
Stuff like that matters, 'cause I know I'm not the only one. Character counts and if Bill Clinton was coaching I'd say "NO" on my ballot.
I agree Grizz. It's going to be tough to see Tom retire. I think he makes the hall of fame just because how hard he works. All the stats, wins, and Championships are just extras.
I agree with this, and I bet he's held in much, MUCH higher regard among his peers and the voters than he is by most fans.
Yes, I've been surprised as to how revered/respected he is around the league amongst his peers and execs..The Jax's first owner, Weaver, has been quoted as saying that letting TC go was his biggest mistake
What did he make the playoffs, 5 years in a row from 2005-2010, and then again in 2011? So 6 out of 7 years? Since then, they've "consistently" been out of the playoffs, three years in a row.
They are also prone to being streaky in season, regularly winning 4-6 games in a row, and then conversely losing 4 in a row in season.
Additionally, didn't we start 6-2 pretty much every single season he was here, from 2004 until 2012?
What's your definition of consistency?
George Allen is in the HOF without a single SB win. But he was known for taking teams who were bad and turning them around. He also had years where his teams were mediocre.
Bud Grant never won a SB and some people think he underachieved with teams. But he's in the HOF.
Most coaches in there accumulated wins and/or Championships. That's exactly what TC has done, too.
Voters might look at tangible stats like the number of .500 and above years, the number of playoff years and the number of SB wins/losses, but consistency? Probably not even part of the conversation. Mainly because a lot of the hall voters don't follow the game as closely as fans of individual teams.
I guess you could classify "big games" as Superbowls, but sells it a little short.
You can be consistently mediocre. But that isn't a goal. Consistently top-notch? Good luck with that but let me remind you that there are teams that have never won a Championship. Never. You get 2 under one coach and that isn't a coincidence--especially under a team built under that coach--not handed a team ala Switzer.
I think he is another coach whose SB record is viewed as one of a coach that inherited a really good team for those SB's. In comparison TC took a team and built it.
What did he make the playoffs, 5 years in a row from 2005-2010, and then again in 2011? So 6 out of 7 years? Since then, they've "consistently" been out of the playoffs, three years in a row.
They are also prone to being streaky in season, regularly winning 4-6 games in a row, and then conversely losing 4 in a row in season.
Additionally, didn't we start 6-2 pretty much every single season he was here, from 2004 until 2012?
What's your definition of consistency?
What is almost always conveniently glossed over was our 10-6 record in 2010 which wasn't good enough to make playoffs..It EASILY could have been(should have been) 11-5..So yes, we didn't make the playoffs and that is "counted" as a missed year by many here
Just the facts, and quite frankly, the facts by themselves support the Hall of Fame.
If the Giants were any better they'd be by far the 2nd best team in the NFL over the last 10 years. As is they are the 3rd best next to Pitt and the Pats. IF you're gonna put some other team ahead of NYG over the last 10 it's not gonna be based on super wins or appearances. How can we put any team not named Pitt or NE over NYG? WHo is that team? Ravens? Only one title. Niners? No titles. Colts? One title. Saints...ditto. Packers come close...but just one.
So you're saying the Giants haven't been consistent enough. They are already the 3rd most successful franchise since 05! Even with the last 2 years of shit...they are still 3rd when you add up the regular season and postseason wins.
Compare the Giants to every other NFL team not named Pitt or the Pats. Then talk to me about consistency.
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have lacked consistency, sure they won some big games but throughout Coughlin's tenure here we fans never knew what team would show up on sunday and thats what will keep him out of the HOF...
If the Giants were any better they'd be by far the 2nd best team in the NFL over the last 10 years. As is they are the 3rd best next to Pitt and the Pats. IF you're gonna put some other team ahead of NYG over the last 10 it's not gonna be based on super wins or appearances. How can we put any team not named Pitt or NE over NYG? WHo is that team? Ravens? Only one title. Niners? No titles. Colts? One title. Saints...ditto. Packers come close...but just one.
So you're saying the Giants haven't been consistent enough. They are already the 3rd most successful franchise since 05! Even with the last 2 years of shit...they are still 3rd when you add up the regular season and postseason wins.
Compare the Giants to every other NFL team not named Pitt or the Pats. Then talk to me about consistency.
Sometimes people make it seem as though they'd prefer to have the 'consistency' of the packers/saints/colts/etc... over the 'inconsistency' of TC teams despite us having more titles during that time.