Was arguing this the other day with a friend of mine.
I say for sure. There aren't any 2 time SB winning coaches not in the hall of fame. Also factor in he took Jax as an expansion team to the AFC Championship.
-At Syracuse, played alongside Larry Csonka and Floyd Little. In 1967 set the school's all time single season pass recieving record.
-Won a Superbowl as an Assistant Coach in 1990
-Went back to BC as a head coach and completely turned the program around, capping it off by beating an undeafeated Notre Dame (number one in the country) 41-39 in 1993.
-Became the first ever coach AND GM in Jacksonville, making them the the most successful expansion team ever. Took the team to the AFC Championship in only their second season in existence.
-Named NFL Coach Of The Year in 1996.
-Took them to another AFC Championship in 1999 with a 14-2 record.
-Won the Superbowl with the Giants in only his 4th year with the team, then kept the run going starting the next season with an 11-1 record.
-Won it again with the Giants just four years later, in what was practically a mirror image of a "once in a lifetime" run.
-164 Career Regular Season Wins.
-3 Superbowl Rings, 2 as a head coach, 4 Championship Game appearances as a head coach, 1 Coach Of The Year Award.
Coughlin is one of the more impressive people I've ever seen associated with the game. I can't recall a situation in any sport where someone at Coughlin's age with his previous accomplishments having the courage and self-awareness to look in the mirror and adjust the way he conducts himself as a leader. He would have had every reason to believe he was doing things the right way and retire (or be let go) in the late 2000s with a fine career... one that included a ring as an assistant.
But he didn't do that like 99.99% of us would. He challenged himself to be better, and because of that, he went from a hell of a football coach to one who I believe will be enshrined in the Hall.
Who are the head coaches of the past decade or so that are going?
Tom Coughlin is right up there with Belichick, and quite frankly, I think it will play into the voting that Coughlin beat Belichick twice in the Superbowl.
What other coaches of the past ten years or so are more deserving than Tom Coughlin?
I don't think he NEEDS another ring, or even a Super Bowl appearance, but another playoff win or two would be nice, along with the expected stat-padding.
let's give the full picture of what TC did in Jax....
4 titles versus 2. I don't think the head to head is going to matter as much as overall outcomes.
Belichick also is in the playoffs every year, and I believe we all know how rare a Giants playoff appearance has been lately.
While I agree with you that Belichick has a significantly better resume than Coughlin and it's not close, I don't think there's another coach in the NFL you could argue has had a better career than Coughlin.
This is admittedly without much thought, but off the top of my head I think Coughlin is #2... yes, a very distant #2.
it isn't just about SB appearances. It is about compiling wins and having milestones.
2 AFC Championship games are milestones as is taking an expansion team there. It isn't like he'll be up for a vote in 2089 when people might not know where the London Jaguars relocated from or what their origins are.
are so much older than guys like John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin it's hard to compare resumes. Even Shaun Payton (scandal notwithstanding) has a long time to catch up to those guys.
Heck, Mike Tomlin can coach the next 25 years and be younger than Coughlin is now. LOL.
When compared to his contemporaries, I think Coughlin gets in - Belichick, Coughlin from this era - like Parcells, Gibbs, Walsh from the 80's.
RE: then that's exactly what's wrong with the Hall of Fame
I didn't compare their careers. You asked me to give you a Hall of Fame coach who has missed the playoffs as much as Coughlin recently has... I just gave you 3.
Are you sure? I see one 6 season stretch to start his career and then 4 of 5 at the end.
When I said two separate seasons, I meant one of each. So one 6 game stretch and then the 4 out of 5 stretch.
This is dumb though because I'm not comparing their careers. Greg asked for a coach who's in the Hall and has had similar stretches of missing the playoffs and I gave him 3... one of which being way worse than any stretch Coughlin has had (Halas). I was simply answering a question with a fact, not comparing anything.
I think Britt in VA summed it up nicely. I would only add his ability to identify when he is doing something wrong and the willingness to accept that and correct it. His dedication to being the best he can be at his craft is also a trait in TC I admire greatly. I have no doubt he will be in the hall of fame.
There were no "playoffs" for most of Halas' coaching career - you either won your division and played in the NFL title game or your season was done.
Chuck Noll and Tom Landry's accomplishments easily outweigh their end of career struggles. Coughlin? That's much more questionable, when you're talking about a guy whose calling card is two championships and one of them was probably the biggest fluke team in NFL history....which is borne out by the fact that they barely squeaked into the playoffs in the first place and didn't make the playoffs in the two seasons before nor the three seasons since.
1990 Giants won a Super Bowl with a backup QB. The 2011 Giants wouldn't have won 4 games without Eli Manning. They were a mediocre at best team who were carried by a QB who played the best ball of his career down the stretch.
stack up Landry vs. TC? Landry also only has 2 SB wins and was coach of the year twice.
And ironically, Landry is also partially remembered for taking the expansion Cowboys to success in a fairly quick fashion.
There are actually a lot of parallels between the two, including having stretches that weren't highly successful.
Well, for starters Landry won 250 games at a much higher winning percentage. He coached in 2 NFL championship games, 5 Super Bowls and 10 NFC title games. He made a winner of an expansion team back before the NFL bent over backwards and broke its own rules to help them, as they did for Carolina and Jacksonville.
Tom Coughlin's career is a pale shadow of Landry's, frankly.
but when you compare him to a HOF coach and he meets several of the same milestones, it actually supports the view TC should be in. You look at some of the coaches in the Hall and TC has better milestones (or equal) than many of them:
George Allen
Weeb Ewbank
Bud Grant
Marv Levy
Bill Parcells
Hank Stram
Like it or not, longevity plays a role in HOF discussions because it leads to compilation of stats. Having a high #of wins coupled with postseason success will get TC in the Hall.
There were no "playoffs" for most of Halas' coaching career - you either won your division and played in the NFL title game or your season was done.
Chuck Noll and Tom Landry's accomplishments easily outweigh their end of career struggles. Coughlin? That's much more questionable, when you're talking about a guy whose calling card is two championships and one of them was probably the biggest fluke team in NFL history....which is borne out by the fact that they barely squeaked into the playoffs in the first place and didn't make the playoffs in the two seasons before nor the three seasons since.
1990 Giants won a Super Bowl with a backup QB. The 2011 Giants wouldn't have won 4 games without Eli Manning. They were a mediocre at best team who were carried by a QB who played the best ball of his career down the stretch.
There are NEVER, EVER fluke teams when you win a SB..All teams have breaks go for them and against them..Even the dynasty teams have what you would term flukes(Brady Tuck rule to avoid elimination and the first SB for Brady, Packers benefiting playoff-wise in 2010 from Giants Philly meltdown and tons more)..Not a credible argument given how luck one has to be to get to a Sb regardless of talent..
the problem is (and I already stated it wasn't that close) is you're crossing eras. It's a double-edged sword.
Coaches today have it hard with the free agency era and post-CBA restrictions.
Coaches then had it harder because of a lack of free agency (you draft poorly too bad) and players didn't get paid well
this era I think most people agree is harder to coach in or at least sustain greatness in.
Which is what makes Belichick stand out even more, even if it's in a Barry Bonds kind of way.
Coughlin deserves the HOF not because of how he compares with Landry or Lombardi, but because of how he compares with Lovie Smith and Tony Dungy, and even Andy Reid, John Fox, Jim Harbaugh, etc...pretty much all his contemporaries except Belichick and the guys it doesn't make sense to compare him to (yet) like Tomlin and John Harbaugh
Greg, you could call Coughlin "fluky" or you could take the glass half-full approach and say that he did a great job coaching teams that probably were the fifth or sixth most-talented in the league (to be generous) to championships.
The "missing the playoffs six of last seven years" refrain would make sense if you think there's other coaches (besides Belichick) who could have done better given our personnel deficiencies over that time. I'm not saying Coughlin doesn't take responsibility for team performance, I'm just not sure anyone could have done much more given the cavalcade of bad roster decisions and injuries.
Things that exceed records. TC has been the face of the Giants in a way that's not limited to his record. I think that matters.
I am some sixty years a fan, and when TC goes a big part of Giant lore goes, and frankly I think my rooting interst will take a hit.
Stuff like that matters, 'cause I know I'm not the only one. Character counts and if Bill Clinton was coaching I'd say "NO" on my ballot.
on the HOF site, the first line is "Reversed the fortunes of 4 NFL teams".
I'm pretty sure voters take into account TC's record in Jax. Unless you want to say Parcells only was inducted because of 2SB's with the Giants, but that kind of makes the argument for TC too?
Put it this way - Parcells never had another SB win with anyone but the Giants and he never had an above .500 playoff record with any other team. To think voters won't take into account Jax is like saying they didn't take into account Parcells elsewhere.
The Parcells Giants were my favorite teams of all time, any sport, and no one else comes close.
I somewhat get it and agree...Parcells took a Giants team that was basically a bunch of cream puffs (and, according to rumors, full of coke heads), and turned them into the toughest team in football.
It seemed Parcells spent a lot of time reading and re-reading his press clippings in the years after that, and I haven't always been his biggest fan since.
Credit where due though, he did turn the Jets, Patriots and Cowboys into contenders after he left the Giants.
I'm sure Jerry Jones has conveniently forgotten that it was Parcells who promoted a then-no name Romo to QB over Bledsoe
If you don't think voters will look at that too, you're not being realistic.
The two SBs are paramount, but this backs up the fact he is damn good football man.
-Won a Superbowl as an Assistant Coach in 1990
-Went back to BC as a head coach and completely turned the program around, capping it off by beating an undeafeated Notre Dame (number one in the country) 41-39 in 1993.
-Became the first ever coach AND GM in Jacksonville, making them the the most successful expansion team ever. Took the team to the AFC Championship in only their second season in existence.
-Named NFL Coach Of The Year in 1996.
-Took them to another AFC Championship in 1999 with a 14-2 record.
-Won the Superbowl with the Giants in only his 4th year with the team, then kept the run going starting the next season with an 11-1 record.
-Won it again with the Giants just four years later, in what was practically a mirror image of a "once in a lifetime" run.
-164 Career Regular Season Wins.
-3 Superbowl Rings, 2 as a head coach, 4 Championship Game appearances as a head coach, 1 Coach Of The Year Award.
Add that to his accomplishments in New York and it's a stone cold lock.
it's not about the bad, it's about the good with coaches.
I think Coughlin is basically a lock, while Eli maybe as a 1-in-3 chance if he never wins a Championship again.
If he gets another one then he is in as well.
But he didn't do that like 99.99% of us would. He challenged himself to be better, and because of that, he went from a hell of a football coach to one who I believe will be enshrined in the Hall.
Tom Coughlin is right up there with Belichick, and quite frankly, I think it will play into the voting that Coughlin beat Belichick twice in the Superbowl.
What other coaches of the past ten years or so are more deserving than Tom Coughlin?
4-12
9-7
11-5
11-5
14-2
Two conf champ appearances.
That's some damn good winning.
Don't think Dom Capers was doing that..............
Belichick also is in the playoffs every year, and I believe we all know how rare a Giants playoff appearance has been lately.
4-12
9-7
11-5
11-5
14-2
Two conf champ appearances.
That's some damn good winning.
Don't think Dom Capers was doing that..............
And not so much as one Super Bowl appearance, so, again, fairly irrelevent.
Belichick also is in the playoffs every year, and I believe we all know how rare a Giants playoff appearance has been lately.
While I agree with you that Belichick has a significantly better resume than Coughlin and it's not close, I don't think there's another coach in the NFL you could argue has had a better career than Coughlin.
This is admittedly without much thought, but off the top of my head I think Coughlin is #2... yes, a very distant #2.
Belichick also is in the playoffs every year, and I believe we all know how rare a Giants playoff appearance has been lately.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there's Belichick, then there is Coughlin, then who else?
Who else has a resume that even touches what either of those guys have done over their career?
2 AFC Championship games are milestones as is taking an expansion team there. It isn't like he'll be up for a vote in 2089 when people might not know where the London Jaguars relocated from or what their origins are.
Is that how you think this works? Is there some minimum of coaches that must go into the HOF?
Is that how you think this works? Is there some minimum of coaches that must go into the HOF?
Great, that's part of how it works, absolutely. If you're the 2nd best coach of your generation, that is certainly a relevant factor.
Heck, Mike Tomlin can coach the next 25 years and be younger than Coughlin is now. LOL.
When compared to his contemporaries, I think Coughlin gets in - Belichick, Coughlin from this era - like Parcells, Gibbs, Walsh from the 80's.
I don't know what you mean by this.
2 rings (and another as an assistant)
4 title games
If the Giants go 8-8 or better this year, he moves into the top 10 all time in wins. There's plenty of logic here.
If (when) the Giants miss the playoffs again this year, that will be 6 out of the past 7 seasons. How many HOF coaches have a stretch like that?
If (when) the Giants miss the playoffs again this year, that will be 6 out of the past 7 seasons. How many HOF coaches have a stretch like that?
Greg, c'mon. There's a reason that was in parenthesis. His ring as an assistant certainly was not the point of my post.
That's not what you asked.
"If (when) the Giants miss the playoffs again this year, that will be 6 out of the past 7 seasons. How many HOF coaches have a stretch like that?"
He just answered your question.
Greg... you are way off base on this.
I didn't compare their careers. You asked me to give you a Hall of Fame coach who has missed the playoffs as much as Coughlin recently has... I just gave you 3.
And ironically, Landry is also partially remembered for taking the expansion Cowboys to success in a fairly quick fashion.
There are actually a lot of parallels between the two, including having stretches that weren't highly successful.
Those Jacksonville teams were very good.
He helped 2 9-7 Giant teams WIN SB's against all odds.
And, he was an assistant on the SB XXV team.
Yes.
Are you sure? I see one 6 season stretch to start his career and then 4 of 5 at the end.
Also Landry was 88 games over .500, with 5 conference championships ans 15 division championships.
TC isn't close even with your skewed stats.
When I said two separate seasons, I meant one of each. So one 6 game stretch and then the 4 out of 5 stretch.
This is dumb though because I'm not comparing their careers. Greg asked for a coach who's in the Hall and has had similar stretches of missing the playoffs and I gave him 3... one of which being way worse than any stretch Coughlin has had (Halas). I was simply answering a question with a fact, not comparing anything.
Chuck Noll and Tom Landry's accomplishments easily outweigh their end of career struggles. Coughlin? That's much more questionable, when you're talking about a guy whose calling card is two championships and one of them was probably the biggest fluke team in NFL history....which is borne out by the fact that they barely squeaked into the playoffs in the first place and didn't make the playoffs in the two seasons before nor the three seasons since.
1990 Giants won a Super Bowl with a backup QB. The 2011 Giants wouldn't have won 4 games without Eli Manning. They were a mediocre at best team who were carried by a QB who played the best ball of his career down the stretch.
no question regardless of the circumstances.
All coaches deserve that IMO.
And ironically, Landry is also partially remembered for taking the expansion Cowboys to success in a fairly quick fashion.
There are actually a lot of parallels between the two, including having stretches that weren't highly successful.
Well, for starters Landry won 250 games at a much higher winning percentage. He coached in 2 NFL championship games, 5 Super Bowls and 10 NFC title games. He made a winner of an expansion team back before the NFL bent over backwards and broke its own rules to help them, as they did for Carolina and Jacksonville.
Tom Coughlin's career is a pale shadow of Landry's, frankly.
George Allen
Weeb Ewbank
Bud Grant
Marv Levy
Bill Parcells
Hank Stram
Like it or not, longevity plays a role in HOF discussions because it leads to compilation of stats. Having a high #of wins coupled with postseason success will get TC in the Hall.
Chuck Noll and Tom Landry's accomplishments easily outweigh their end of career struggles. Coughlin? That's much more questionable, when you're talking about a guy whose calling card is two championships and one of them was probably the biggest fluke team in NFL history....which is borne out by the fact that they barely squeaked into the playoffs in the first place and didn't make the playoffs in the two seasons before nor the three seasons since.
1990 Giants won a Super Bowl with a backup QB. The 2011 Giants wouldn't have won 4 games without Eli Manning. They were a mediocre at best team who were carried by a QB who played the best ball of his career down the stretch.
There are NEVER, EVER fluke teams when you win a SB..All teams have breaks go for them and against them..Even the dynasty teams have what you would term flukes(Brady Tuck rule to avoid elimination and the first SB for Brady, Packers benefiting playoff-wise in 2010 from Giants Philly meltdown and tons more)..Not a credible argument given how luck one has to be to get to a Sb regardless of talent..
Coaches today have it hard with the free agency era and post-CBA restrictions.
Coaches then had it harder because of a lack of free agency (you draft poorly too bad) and players didn't get paid well
this era I think most people agree is harder to coach in or at least sustain greatness in.
Which is what makes Belichick stand out even more, even if it's in a Barry Bonds kind of way.
Coughlin deserves the HOF not because of how he compares with Landry or Lombardi, but because of how he compares with Lovie Smith and Tony Dungy, and even Andy Reid, John Fox, Jim Harbaugh, etc...pretty much all his contemporaries except Belichick and the guys it doesn't make sense to compare him to (yet) like Tomlin and John Harbaugh
The "missing the playoffs six of last seven years" refrain would make sense if you think there's other coaches (besides Belichick) who could have done better given our personnel deficiencies over that time. I'm not saying Coughlin doesn't take responsibility for team performance, I'm just not sure anyone could have done much more given the cavalcade of bad roster decisions and injuries.
Which is what makes Belichick stand out even more, even if it's in a Barry Bonds kind of way.
This made me laugh
I am some sixty years a fan, and when TC goes a big part of Giant lore goes, and frankly I think my rooting interst will take a hit.
Stuff like that matters, 'cause I know I'm not the only one. Character counts and if Bill Clinton was coaching I'd say "NO" on my ballot.
I'm pretty sure voters take into account TC's record in Jax. Unless you want to say Parcells only was inducted because of 2SB's with the Giants, but that kind of makes the argument for TC too?
Put it this way - Parcells never had another SB win with anyone but the Giants and he never had an above .500 playoff record with any other team. To think voters won't take into account Jax is like saying they didn't take into account Parcells elsewhere.
We know that isn't true.
I somewhat get it and agree...Parcells took a Giants team that was basically a bunch of cream puffs (and, according to rumors, full of coke heads), and turned them into the toughest team in football.
It seemed Parcells spent a lot of time reading and re-reading his press clippings in the years after that, and I haven't always been his biggest fan since.
Credit where due though, he did turn the Jets, Patriots and Cowboys into contenders after he left the Giants.
I'm sure Jerry Jones has conveniently forgotten that it was Parcells who promoted a then-no name Romo to QB over Bledsoe