Eye opening stat/graphic of Giants injuries last two years

and if all things are even the Eagles are about to get hit hard. It's been a brutal last couple years for damn sure.

almost everybody said his system would fail because of the tempo and it would lead to injuries. It has had the exact opposite effect. Now, he does way more than just practice hard and run more plays than other teams. He is on top of their nutrition. He changed the way they train. I've said it before, the Giants need to follow what they do because whatever they do works. The Giants tried some new stuff last year but it didn't seem to help. I'm sure you need more than a year to fully analyze if what they are doing works but it isn't off to a great start.

Giants 2014 Average Games Lost: 137. Next closest was 119 followed by 104.
Giants 2013 Average Games Lost: 141. Next Closest was 103 followed by 100.

2013 lowest Average Games Lost was 32 (Eagles).
2014 lowest Average Games Lost was 36 (Broncos).

Giants had over 100 more Average games lost than the lowest averaging team. Hell, they had almost 40 more Average Games Lost than the next highest team in 2013 (Packers) and almost 20 more Average Games Lost than the next highest team in 2014 (Chargers).

Simply unthinkable.

I think we all knew the Giants had injuries well in excess of league averages, or even the nearest teams.

Is it really just being due? Or is it something deeper than that?

Seems as if injuries have plagued this team for years.

I said eye opening because we all knew that the Giants are always up near the top of the league in guys on injured reserve, but seeing the graph and the numbers are staggering to me.

And my question is why? It can't just be coincidence.

Opening press conference be complained about all the injuries and intimidated be would 'change' that.

I thought Mara was going to address injuries and what adjustments were made in the weight room. I guess not in time for Beatty though. Are the right people in place? Are their methods practical and sound? Have they made any adjustments to address the issue? Is there leadership and oversight to ensure that the issues are being addressed?

Funny you say that....as I'm reading that article, I was thinking the same thing. "Soft tissue injuries."

The injuries have arguable gotten worse! Much, much worse!

In comment 12308283 Vin_Cuccs said:

Quote:

Is it really just being due? Or is it something deeper than that? Seems as if injuries have plagued this team for years.

A two year sample doesn't speak of deeper issues to me - this is not to criticize your post, just that to make a more full conclusion I'd want a much more lengthy sample. I don't believe from what I've read that any one team is so far ahead or behind the rest of the league to be a massive outlier one way or the other in injury rates due to their approach, though with time differing methods such as robbie's reference to Kelly and the Eagles may change that.

This is very interesting, but I've got two issues: First, I'd like to see data for more than two years. Three would establish a pattern, more could be damning.

Secondly, I think all teams get hit with catastrophic training injuries. Yeah, Beatty's injury sucks, but if you look around the league, other teams have had training injuries also.

And if you look at that table, some teams have done pretty good over that very limited sample period, but some others have done well one year, and garbage another.

My own gut feeling is that the Giants' situation may largely be a product not primarily of tough training methods, but rather perhaps the most conservative/best medical team. I.e., the Giants send fewer injured or not fully recovered players out to continue to play and get injured even worse.

I don't have stats from the last 5 years, but I'd be willing to wager they'd be near the top of total games missed, average games missed and players on injured reserve.

I mean hell, they're only three days into OTA's in May and they've already lost a guy for the majority of the season (Beatty) and narrowly avoided another serious injury (Ayers).

22 players on IR in 2014.
13 players on IR in 2013.
13 players on IR in 2012.
14 players on IR in 2011.
14 players on IR in 2010.

76 players on IR over the last 5 years. And that number doesn't even include games missed by players. No idea how that stacks up to the rest of the NFL, but it just seems insanely high.

when the owner, general manager and head coach already acknowledge that thee is an indeed an issue. Wouldn't they have more insight on the matter.

I'd be stunned if the league average end of year IR count wasn't near 10 league wide.

FIRE THE MOTHERFUCKING STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING COACH!!!

FIRE THE MOTHERFUCKING STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING COACH!!!

FIRE THE MOTHERFUCKING STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING COACH!!!

FIRE THE MOTHERFUCKING STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING COACH!!!

FIRE THE MOTHERFUCKING STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING COACH!!!

















Did I mention we should......

FIRE THE MOTHERFUCKING STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING COACH!!

Ok. I'm done.

We have had injury issues, its an issue we have had that goes back to before Coughlin was even hired

even more pissed than usual. 2nd healthiest team in the league for the last two years, and have won exactly won fewer game than the unhealthiest team in the league.

In comment 12308275 WeatherMan said:

Quote:

and if all things are even the Eagles are about to get hit hard. It's been a brutal last couple years for damn sure.

yeah, but you don't know that... and it doesn't work that way.

don't the Eagles mask their injuries...the severity of them... while trotting their hurt players out each week? while the Giants are overly cautious?

Generally, I'm not a believer in coincidence. Someone is at fault and it's costing the team wins.

if we could match up player ages to the injuries. The Giants had one of the oldest rosters in the league last year.

In comment 12308286 Jay in Toronto said:

Quote:

Opening press conference be complained about all the injuries and intimidated be would 'change' that.

Every season we lead the league in injuries or man games lost due to injuries I harken back to that very press conference. What TC was saying at the time of his introduction was, there is a distinction between an injury and being hurt. He was suggesting that it was a mindset that permeats a lockerroom in the sense of being able to play through being hurt. At least that's how I interpreted it but either way 11 years later we're talking about multiple record breaking injury riddled seasons and it has to stop ....doesn't it?

if we could match up player ages to the injuries. The Giants had one of the oldest rosters in the league last year.

Having players on your roster with medical baggage...

this is a complete failure of S&C

notice the jets who use the same facilities are second lowest in the league

how did the S&C not get fired last year?

In comment 12308372 giantfan2000 said:

Quote:

this is a complete failure of S&C notice the jets who use the same facilities are second lowest in the league how did the S&C not get fired last year?

The crazy thing is that Giants have had quite a few injuries that occurred under the direct supervision of the training staff.

it is just bad luck. Very, very, very, very, bad luck. Like Beatty being gone for six months without even stepping onto the field kinda luck.

For two years I had to give TC a pass. You can only coach the players you have and half the effing roster has been on IR each season.

I think the money has something to do with it as well. The players are so rich now they are more willing to sit and not play with injuries. The days of LT dominating with a separated shoulder are long gone. In today's game LT would be gone six weeks with that injury.

I wish they had a longer sample size. I'd love to see that chart since TC's been coach and see how it shakes out.

We seem to have more injuries than others forever..My take on that (if true) is that we simply follow our team very closely, so it just SEEMS that way..

Otherwise check out the key injuries we've had..Most if not all have little to do with strength and conditioning imo..

Otoh, Eli has been virtually injury free save for some injuries he played through..Does he have the strength and conditioning formula the others don't?

Hardly

the Giants don't have any more injuries than other teams. There it is in an easy to see graph.

clearly there are some teams who went from the top to the bottom of the list or vice versa (Packers, Broncos) from year to year, and some who didn't. So is there a way to separate out statistical variation from good or bad practices? Perhaps someone with more of a statistical background could answer that question. Certainly data over a longer time period could help answer the question.

Probably most people remember that when we won the Superbowl most recently we had a lot of injuries early in the season but a lot of those people came back late. I doubt we've significantly changed our training routine. One think I've noticed is that they've added the band training to avoid hamstrings, and in fact altho we've certainly had a few hamstring problems (Beckham), they do seem to have gone down in recent years.

One would guess that broken bones have nothing to do with training routine, so I'm guessing if you're doing poorly on broken bones, you've just got bad luck. It would be interesting to classify the injuries as preventable (hamstrings, pec muscle tears)/not preventable (broken bones, etc)and then compare across teams. That wpould help correct for statistical variation.

In comment 12308435 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

We seem to have more injuries than others forever..My take on that (if true) is that we simply follow our team very closely, so it just SEEMS that way.. Otherwise check out the key injuries we've had..Most if not all have little to do with strength and conditioning imo.. Otoh, Eli has been virtually injury free save for some injuries he played through..Does he have the strength and conditioning formula the others don't? Hardly

What Doc said. Plus AGL is going to give dramatic shifts. You lose two or three guys for the season early in the year, and you are headed for the bottom of the chart.

And to the mouthbreathers who apparently cannot understand that TC quote, he wasn't referring to torn muscles, ripped tendons, floating kneecaps, broken legs, disconnected knees and other conditions that no player can play with- and that is what we've had.

cut the team's injury rate. Can we just stop asserting that he said that? What he said was that he would change the culture of malingering due to minor injuries.

....but he came damn close:

Quote:

Coughlin also raised eyebrows referring to last year's rash of injuries as "a cancer." New York had 12 players put on season-ending injured reserve. "It is something that has to be corrected," Coughlin said. "It is a mental thing I believe as much as anything else."

Link to full article below.

He insinuated that he will change the mentality of the team which will in turn reduce injuries.

And in 2004, the "rash of injuries" that Coughlin talked about which landed 12 players on IR was nothing compared to the past 5 years where the lowest total of players on IR was 13.

Link - ( New Window )

*was* saying he would reduce the number of injuries the team suffered - unless you think he's a wizard who's not casting the spells he promised he would cast, I don't see what earthly good it does to keep pointing to a statement he made 11 years ago. The time to get annoyed would've been then, not now.

were amongst the healthiest teams in the league. Good to see that confirmed. Oh, and LELGiants.

...by relying on certain players who were already in serious physical decline, or who had a history of trouble staying on the field: Baas, Diehl, Snee, Ross, Thomas, Webster, Rogers and A.Brown in 2013; Beason, Kiwanuka, Jenkins, Jennings, J.Williams, S.Brown in 2014.

I also think the strength and conditioning staff should be cleared out, simply based on the bottom line. Maybe they aren't to blame for the injury plague, but they sure haven't found the cure. Their replacements - assuming a basic level of competence and qualification - can scarcely do worse.

It is clear that:

1 . unusual high rate of players not playing due to injuries has been around for quite a while

2.and whatever TC thought he could do to lower that hasn't worked

It is clear that:

1 . unusual high rate of players not playing due to injuries has been around for quite a while

2.and whatever TC thought he could do to lower that hasn't worked

Packers go from one of the worst to one of the best...
packers training - ( New Window )

And most of them happen at training camp. Yet they continue to train the same place year after year.

conclusions, I wish someone with some stats chops could tell us if this is sufficient to analyze the probability that the Giants' outlying data is due to something other than chance.

the post and the info. Never realized how bad our situation has been. Management has to get a handle on WTF has us so far above the curve and fix it. This seems to go way beyond just bad luck.

Its a little of both: poor oversight of training and overall fitness level and just shit luck, but it has to be a lot of both. Im no sports scientist ot M.D. who works with professional athletes, but I always saw injuries like torn Achilles as the product of too much training. The insane raining is what makes these guys so strong and fast but that same training builds up muscles so large with such high muscle tone that these non-contact injuries happen. These are the ones that have to be addressed > like Cruz's injury last season. I dont know what it is, but its those injuries that can be most reduced by more intelligent training methods.

And I kind of agree also> a strength and conditioning coach in the NFL may have to lose his job if the starting LT tears his bicep in the weight room,And his team has far and away THE MOST injured players over the last 2 seasons. Just like Tom Quinn should have been shit canned after the Meadowlands Meltdown.

Of something being done wrong at our facilities? I understand and find it worrisome that we seem to lead the league in injuries. but we had different coaches prior to Coughlin when we also always had injuries.

trends for many years, I will say I'm still not sure what to make of them because for teh most part, teams swap places most of the time. Even as dire as the Giants situation has been, they have had a few years sprinkled in since 2005 where they have been in the top 10 of health.

I've also seen a lot of teams ping-pong back and forth. In one strange stretch of 8 years between 2002-2010, the Panthers actually kept going from Top 5 in health to bottom 5 in health on alternating years.

Not surprisingly, each year they were in the top, they made the playoffs or had a decent year. Each year they were in the bottom, they missed the playoffs.

The giants have had a horrible few years, but I'm not sure you can pin that on negligence from any one area. It isn't like they have a cluster of similar types of injuries. That's what makes the analysis tough to figure out.

...it's probably a duck.

I agree that it's hard to find a common thread linking the individual injuries. But absolving the S&C staff on that basis seems a bit like saying the Lions shouldn't have fired Rod Marinelli because his 38 losses as head coach were by 36 different scores.

It's a bottom-line business, and the bottom line in that area has been horrible. If Mike Pope and Kevin Gilbride could be shown the door, it's pretty strange that Palmieri, Paul and Danos are still around.

but even placing the blame on Jerry Palmieri (the strength and conditioning coach) might be misleading. In his 12 seasons here, the Giants have been in the bottom 10 of health 5 times, the top 10 of health 3 times and in the middle the rest of the time.

While not a stellar record - it is just really inconsistent. But so is the health history of most teams.

Like I said before, if the injuries were primarily the same type of even the same family lie strains or sprains, that might be able to help pinpoint things, but we have had just some really odd injuries, from compartment syndrome to torn pecs and biceps, to the regular old ACL tears.

In comment 12308283 Vin_Cuccs said:

Quote:

Is it really just being due? Or is it something deeper than that? Seems as if injuries have plagued this team for years.

We had a thread about this a few months ago, so I may as well bring back the chart I used to track this:



This is the Adjusted Games Lost number that is being reported in the graphic at top of this thread, but when I did this, went back to Football Outsiders and pulled as many years as I could, so I got 8 years of data beginning with the start of the 2007 season. (Their database goes back to 2002 if you want to pay extra for that info.)

Based on the data you see, here is how the Giants have fared compared to the rest of the NFC and the NFL as a whole in terms of most Adjusted Games Lost due to injury:

(Higher place meaning fewest injuries. Lower place meaning most injuries.)



Total AGL from 2007-2014: 618 games lost (77.3 games per season)

16th (LAST) in NFC, 31st in NFL

Teams reporting injuries has gone up over the last 7 years as well, which has made many teams numbers for AGL higher throughout the NFL.

Despite this, the Giants over the last 6 years in their own conference have been in the bottom half in terms of most games lost to injury.

In terms of how they compare to the entire NFL, since 2009 they have ranked 19th or worse each year. The best year they had in the last five years was ranking 22nd, and that was in 2010. They have been in the bottom 1/3 in each of the last 4 years.

Amazingly, they won Super Bowl XLVI while being that injured.

The last "good year" they have had with injuries was 7 seasons ago in 2008 and they didn't even finish in the top 10 (finished 11th). You have to go back to the Super Bowl XLII year when they were a pretty healthy team through the whole season (6th).

is there are 12 teams who had had a difference from the year before of 10 places or more, including teams like the Broncos and Packers who went from being one of the best or worst one year to flipping the next.

We've been on the bad end two years in a row and perhaps just for that a change needs to be made, but I'd like to hear what solution is in the works instead of just making a change.

In comment 12309304 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

is there are 12 teams who had had a difference from the year before of 10 places or more, including teams like the Broncos and Packers who went from being one of the best or worst one year to flipping the next. We've been on the bad end two years in a row and perhaps just for that a change needs to be made, but I'd like to hear what solution is in the works instead of just making a change.

I tend to think that FMiC's overall take is the most spot on absent definitive facts as to the whys and the wherefores..If the majority of injuries were similar, then a pattern could be analyzed..So opine what you care to, but having the type of injuries that we've suffered be pretty much all over the place, I cannot put much credence on tge whos and whys beyond just plain bad luck, which is, rather cyclical imo

Granted, the Giants do it less than most teams, which explains why they've only had three GMs and six head coaches since 1979. For the most part, I admire that philosophy, and believe loyalty to staff makes the Giants an easier team to root for.

But Jeez - look at the Giants' injury record the past six years. It's comparable to Coughlin going 1-15 in 2013 and 2014, after missing the playoffs the previous four seasons. The Maras may love him, and might continue to believe he's a great football coach no matter how many games he loses. A six-year run like that would still have gotten him fired.

I don't think it's necessary to pinpoint what Jerry Palmieri has done wrong, or what his successor might do differently. Life isn't always fair.

I would love to see league wise stats on NON contact injuries

How Giants stack up in number of non contact injuries compared to other teams in the league

It seems to me that many players

Cruz , Beason , Beatty
had non contact season ending injuries.

To me that implies that there are serious training issues

ACL tears on play where a player is jumping is indicative of training or conditioning.

BBB - I see your point and somewhat agree. Somebody has to be the fall person for the horrific two year run, I guess, even if it might not be completely fair

But how about the teams that are getting hit as well but still performing. Look at New England for example.

That's even more impressive.

They both come from shit divisions but the Colts have had to contend with the Texans and the Pats play first place schedules every year.

if it was 2007 or 2011, but when we played the Pats in that Super Bowl, it is the only Super Bowl since they've kept injury stats to feature two teams in the bottom third of the league in health.

Since 2000, there have only been two Super Bowls that did not feature at least one team in the Top 5 of health - and that was one of them.