We won superbowls with much worse linebackers than this.
And with the 6=5 235lb. smart and talented Cooper playing next to Collins safety becomes remarkably strong and any thing but a position of weakness. Beher and Bradshaw provid depth.
The offensive tackles remain the only projected weakness for this team and the writer didn't mention them. Wacky!
is from the same people who, before last season were saying the Cowboys defense was possibly the worst in NFL history. Until the games are played, it's all guess work...
If all the unproven guys pan out things will be different, sure, but right now, only a very pro Giant eye is going to look at either bunch feel great about them.
I mean, if you're citing Cooper as primary evidence of how strong the safety group is, you probably are setting yourself up for some hard times this season.
We won superbowls with much worse linebackers than this.
And with the 6=5 235lb. smart and talented Cooper playing next to Collins safety becomes remarkably strong and any thing but a position of weakness. Beher and Bradshaw provid depth.
The offensive tackles remain the only projected weakness for this team and the writer didn't mention them. Wacky!
This group isn't half what the two LB groups that played in both SuperBowls.
Actually, I think these LB are the best we've had in a long time
This group has front line talent and some depth. Kennard in particular is going to open some eyes and we know Beason can play. And safety is going to be the big surprise. Collins is a DROY candidate if not soon to be a favorite. Folks will find out what a steal we got with him. And I think Taylor will be a good complement.
If Beason and the others stay healthy all season. And by healthy, I mean we need to get 2013-level play out of Beason. He was actually a liability on the field last year. And hasn't contributed over a full season in what seems like 1/2 dozen years. So that's a huge ?????.
Makes the over-all group hard to project. We look to have quite a few useful role player types, but only one young guy clearly on the ascend. Because of this the over-all upside of the group is limited.
Could see anything from just short of top-10 to bottom of the league-level play from this group.
Knock wood and crossing fingers we get the former.
Kennard Beason Thomas play 1 play as a group so I'll withhold judgement. The Safeties haven't played 1 play as a NY Giant outside of Behre's for a couple of plays so they have a blank slate also. I agree with the rankings but I don't view them as a negative, just a reality that they haven't been on the field together
I hope every group on the Giants are voted worse in the NFL on June 4th.
We have very prideful players...many ex-captains, who do not like to lose or get embarressed.
Bulletin Board that stuff up.....
Now is it true or not.....i do not have the time nor the inclination to review all the teams in the nfl. I know I rather have Seattle back 7......but besides them....i can not think of any that jump out as better better potentially.
Why is this news? I think the Collins pick was great but he is still a rookie. The other S are a bunch of low round picks that haven't proven that they can stay on the field, let alone play. LB is a joke, counting on Beason is a bigger joke. Kennard also has to prove he can stay on the field and also learn a new defense. They FA signings were necessary and hopefully can contribute, but there are no LT, CB, BVPs in this group.
I think our tight ends are going to surprise people.
I trust your assessment at this stage of the game more than anybody else here...you have a knack for knowing...I remember your early Victor Cruz predictions.....Happier now about the TE's....
I have to agree, from the stand point of lack of experience, and ability to stay on the field.....
I just don't get all this confidence in Berhe....what the hell did he do last year, to make anyone confident in him?
Cooper Taylor, just looks too fragile.....
While Collins looks like a "future" stud, he is a rookie, and will make mistakes....remains to be seen if he does have weaknesses in deep coverage....
Three of these safeties are returning from injuries, and basically have no experience......in fact, none of them do....
As for the linebacker position, once again very weak....If Beason goes down again, and McClain is the MLB, we are in trouble.....we are asking a lot from Kennard, another guy that has trouble staying on the field....and just how good is Thomas? We are about to find out.....after that, what do we have for linebackers? Bodies....
So unless Collins plays lights out from the beginning, and Spags finds another safety that can actually play, and Beason stays healthy, Kennard steps up to the next level, and Thomas becomes one of those FA linebackers, the Giants sometimes find, then things may not be as bad as thought......but there is no depth at all at these positions, and a couple injuries here, will put this defense in a tailspin....
Whatever the worst league-wide defensive unit ends up being
It will be because of injuries. You get two three four injuries to the same unit and even the good ones can go to hell. It happens every year and this will be no different.
However, let's first see how pre-season plays out and then make that assessment. Right now, on paper, and based on current facts, the assessment is probably very realistic. I think, obviously, health plays a big factor, new scheme and player development. Those things will make or break this unit IMO.
Is that they usually offer a critically flawed framework for handling the highly speculative. Notions such as "Worst" and "Best" are challenging concepts to debate even after the fact.
Even the coaches who are closest to these units would be challenged to make a reliable assessment of their own groups at this time. There are just too many variables. How close do you have to be to offer reasonable assessment for all units on all teams league-wide?
Oh, yeah, and throwing out absolutes such as "worst" rather than more appropriate labels such as "concerning" "risky" or "questionable"? Can we at least frame the debate accurately?
jEFF Torbor wouldn't make this team. Mitchell was ordinary, Pierce near the end and smart only. He really wan't strong enough to play the run nor fast enough to drop into coverage. He was tough and a leader.
Chase Blackburn wouldn't make this team either. Boley? I can't even remember who the other lb was.
Noone in that group had anywhere near the talent of Kennard who is just entering his prime. Only Boley had The speed of Thomas or the other FA we signed.
I even think Hertzy can be a decent player as he moves another year away from chemo.
If Beason is healthy this group is light years better than any of that group. Jeff Torbor? started one year, i think left in FA securing a decent salary and flopped.
People watch, they see, and they hold on to their convictions based on a different era but as firmly entreched in their minds as their political preferences. Fact is, you can not invest a lot of finite resources in LB, there are simply other positions that are more important in the modern game.
I believe that the modern field is effectively smaller than the old field and that widening it like the Canadian field would reduce the size of the linemen and bring back emphasize on the linebackers.
I think our tight ends are going to surprise people.
Any production will surprise people. The only sure thing a tight end is Daniel fells. Outside of him can Donnell duplicate what he did minus the fumbles? Is Cunningham legit? Lacose(sp). Is Tye headed for the practice squad. Lot of question marks but I think our offense doesn't need anything special at that position just something adequate.
Your way off. 07, Kawika Mitchell, Reggie torbor, AP and kiwi were def better than this unit. AP in his prime. Kawika was a beast that year. Stuffing the run and solid in pass coverage. That's why the bills offered him a monstrous contract. 2011 Blackburn was incredible. Yes that is the right word. All over the field making play after play. Boley had his best season and showed us fans why he came here with the hype. I don't recall the other backer since I recall us using grant a hell of a lot in sub packages. Overall those units were better than the one we currently have. 07 was a much better linebacking unit than 11 and now
Beason stays healthy, Kennard steps up to the next level, and Thomas becomes one of those FA linebackers, the Giants sometimes find, then things may not be as bad as thought......but there is no depth at all at these positions, and a couple injuries here, will put this defense in a tailspin
see that's what I don't get. Sounds like a simple urge to criticize. Are you aware that this is the era of free agency and the cap? Do you realize that we are limited?
Do you really advocate tying up those limited resources in great depth at Linebacker? If so, what position would you sacrifice so you could have more depth at linebacker.?
Unless you can cogently answer that last question, you're merely a critic and a man with no answers.
Fact is, WR's are much more important than they used to be...Running backs and linebackers less important than they used to be. But by all means tie up your resources so you have great depth at linebacker and maybe do without depth or even first line quality at wide receiver.
The defense has been completely rebuilt since September 2013.
New coordinator. Nine new starters (everyone except Amukamara and Pierre-Paul). Most of the backups and rotational guys are new too.
So it's a Rorschach. Optimists will see the bright possibilities; pessimists will see the complete lack of track record. Optimists are excited by the talent of a Beason or Kennard or Cooper; pessimists note their inability to stay on the field. Optimists expect Collins and Odighizuwa to contribute quickly; pessimists point to the history of Giant rookies riding the pine. Optimists recall Spagnuolo's transformational impact in 2007; pessimists point to St. Louis and New Orleans.
Nobody is right or wrong in this discussion. And even if one side is ultimately vindicated by the results this fall, it doesn't mean the other side was wrong to disagree in June.
The big question is why do the Giants continue to not draft or sign any linebackers that will make this a better team? Just an improvement of the front line will help but yet another draft and still not the needed help to improve the run stopping game. Drafting Odighizuwa who I hope will be a good player but looks to be the upcoming replacement for JPP so in the end did the Giants add more talent or improve the defense or just replace one good player for another? Yes, this is a bad linebacker core and given the history of the draft and free agents the last few years I don't see any improvement until the get rid of there GM and other that make the choice of who to draft and who to sign.
I think our tight ends are going to surprise people.
Any production will surprise people. The only sure thing a tight end is Daniel fells. Outside of him can Donnell duplicate what he did minus the fumbles? Is Cunningham legit? Lacose(sp). Is Tye headed for the practice squad. Lot of question marks but I think our offense doesn't need anything special at that position just something adequate.
If you take away the Redskins game from Donnell his stats are somewhat ordinary
of every NFL roster are totally interchangeable. That's why coaching in the NFL is such a big deal. Under the current CBA no team has a deep roster, no team has depth. There is a combination of luck and planning to avoid injuries and good coaching on the teams that win. The Giants are now competitive at OC & DC. If they're middle of the pack in injuries and the QB isn't one of them they'll have a much better season. Last year they had no chance on defense with the DC they had.
Since George Young was GM. Nor have they had a true playmaker in the secondary. Rolle might have been had he been allowed to play FS, and Kenny Phillips might have been had he not got hurt.
They may well have the worst LBs and Safeties in the league, but I don't think anyone knows that for certain right now. Beason and Kenard seem solid if they can stay healthy. Casillas should be OK. The rest are a crapshoot IMO, and Herzlich has looked awful to me.
The Safeties -- as everyone here knows -- are a total "question mark." No one knows what they're gonna be, but there is little evidence that the guys after Collins are going to be even better than average. And while Collins' future appears bright, what happens if he goes down?
So it's pretty easy to see why evaluators who are not fans of the Giants see the LB and S cup as half empty rather than half full. And they may be right, but I don't think you know in June. Anymore than you can give any meaningful grade on a current year's draft picks.
"The big question is why do the Giants continue to not draft or sign any linebackers that will make this a better team? "
but I will give it to you again. They have limited resources they have made the decision to prioritize positions, you put your money and hi draft picks in QB, WR, CB's, DE's and OL's first. You go to Safety's, next and then RB, TE and linebackers.
The results seem to borne out because we won two superbowls with pretty lousy Linebackers.
Now I know that's not going to work for you because you believe that Linebackers are as important as WR's. And/or that you can have allstars at every positon in this time of the cap and free agency.
So there it sits.
about OL - think we're better at every other position than we were last year. better situated to stop the run and rush the passer.
More weapons and one year of familiarity with the system.
This team showed signs last year - re-watch the Seattle game. Couple of mistakes and got worn down by superior talent, but, game was mostly competitive.
When we really have NO clue how this is going to pan out. Seems as though if these "analysts" or "writers" dont know a whole lot about a player, or its a rookie, they automatically assume he is not going to play well.
Thomas could be one of those underrated pickups, much like Kawika Mitchell, that works out. Young player. At worst will help ST.
Casillas is a quick Vet who, I would like to think, is a better player than Jaquain Williams. That by itself is an improvement, let alone his ST play.
Beason has proven, if/when healthy, the guy is a rock at MLB and smart. Big injury risk. McClain is a below average backup, but capable.
Kennard flashed BIG time talent in limites snaps last year. IF healthy, and more experienced, he will be an asset as a blitzing LB in Spags' blitz-heavy defense.
As for the Safeties, they are assuming that neither Berhe or Taylor will be able to take the next step. Nobody knows how they are going to progress. Taylor has always flashed potential, but again, never healthy.
Collins is first-round pick material. Smart. With a chip on his shoulder. Ill take my chances with him. I also think he is way more talented that Gibril Wilson AND James Butler, who were the safeties the last time this defense and DC were successful.
And with the 6=5 235lb. smart and talented Cooper playing next to Collins safety becomes remarkably strong and any thing but a position of weakness. Beher and Bradshaw provid depth.
The offensive tackles remain the only projected weakness for this team and the writer didn't mention them. Wacky!
I mean, if you're citing Cooper as primary evidence of how strong the safety group is, you probably are setting yourself up for some hard times this season.
In any event, at this point i agree with both rankings.
Giants seem to still remember the Kawika Mitchell gold we struck. Pierce too as merely a "notable FA signing" from the Redskins.
It's time for the F.O. to stop ignoring the position. They are going to get gouged over the middle.
And with the 6=5 235lb. smart and talented Cooper playing next to Collins safety becomes remarkably strong and any thing but a position of weakness. Beher and Bradshaw provid depth.
The offensive tackles remain the only projected weakness for this team and the writer didn't mention them. Wacky!
This group isn't half what the two LB groups that played in both SuperBowls.
Makes the over-all group hard to project. We look to have quite a few useful role player types, but only one young guy clearly on the ascend. Because of this the over-all upside of the group is limited.
Could see anything from just short of top-10 to bottom of the league-level play from this group.
Knock wood and crossing fingers we get the former.
OTOH, the group's upside may be the highest in all the league. All young players with upside who will be given a chance to make their own futures.
We have very prideful players...many ex-captains, who do not like to lose or get embarressed.
Bulletin Board that stuff up.....
Now is it true or not.....i do not have the time nor the inclination to review all the teams in the nfl. I know I rather have Seattle back 7......but besides them....i can not think of any that jump out as better better potentially.
I trust your assessment at this stage of the game more than anybody else here...you have a knack for knowing...I remember your early Victor Cruz predictions.....Happier now about the TE's....
I just don't get all this confidence in Berhe....what the hell did he do last year, to make anyone confident in him?
Cooper Taylor, just looks too fragile.....
While Collins looks like a "future" stud, he is a rookie, and will make mistakes....remains to be seen if he does have weaknesses in deep coverage....
Three of these safeties are returning from injuries, and basically have no experience......in fact, none of them do....
As for the linebacker position, once again very weak....If Beason goes down again, and McClain is the MLB, we are in trouble.....we are asking a lot from Kennard, another guy that has trouble staying on the field....and just how good is Thomas? We are about to find out.....after that, what do we have for linebackers? Bodies....
So unless Collins plays lights out from the beginning, and Spags finds another safety that can actually play, and Beason stays healthy, Kennard steps up to the next level, and Thomas becomes one of those FA linebackers, the Giants sometimes find, then things may not be as bad as thought......but there is no depth at all at these positions, and a couple injuries here, will put this defense in a tailspin....
Even the coaches who are closest to these units would be challenged to make a reliable assessment of their own groups at this time. There are just too many variables. How close do you have to be to offer reasonable assessment for all units on all teams league-wide?
Oh, yeah, and throwing out absolutes such as "worst" rather than more appropriate labels such as "concerning" "risky" or "questionable"? Can we at least frame the debate accurately?
jEFF Torbor wouldn't make this team. Mitchell was ordinary, Pierce near the end and smart only. He really wan't strong enough to play the run nor fast enough to drop into coverage. He was tough and a leader.
Chase Blackburn wouldn't make this team either. Boley? I can't even remember who the other lb was.
Noone in that group had anywhere near the talent of Kennard who is just entering his prime. Only Boley had The speed of Thomas or the other FA we signed.
I even think Hertzy can be a decent player as he moves another year away from chemo.
If Beason is healthy this group is light years better than any of that group. Jeff Torbor? started one year, i think left in FA securing a decent salary and flopped.
People watch, they see, and they hold on to their convictions based on a different era but as firmly entreched in their minds as their political preferences. Fact is, you can not invest a lot of finite resources in LB, there are simply other positions that are more important in the modern game.
I believe that the modern field is effectively smaller than the old field and that widening it like the Canadian field would reduce the size of the linemen and bring back emphasize on the linebackers.
Any production will surprise people. The only sure thing a tight end is Daniel fells. Outside of him can Donnell duplicate what he did minus the fumbles? Is Cunningham legit? Lacose(sp). Is Tye headed for the practice squad. Lot of question marks but I think our offense doesn't need anything special at that position just something adequate.
Let me know when Jon Beason plays more than a handful of games in any given season, k?
I do think they can surprise to the upside.
Kennard - Beason - Thomas
Herzlich - McClain - Casillas
That's not a bad starting unit with some decent depth.
see that's what I don't get. Sounds like a simple urge to criticize. Are you aware that this is the era of free agency and the cap? Do you realize that we are limited?
Do you really advocate tying up those limited resources in great depth at Linebacker? If so, what position would you sacrifice so you could have more depth at linebacker.?
Unless you can cogently answer that last question, you're merely a critic and a man with no answers.
Fact is, WR's are much more important than they used to be...Running backs and linebackers less important than they used to be. But by all means tie up your resources so you have great depth at linebacker and maybe do without depth or even first line quality at wide receiver.
So it's a Rorschach. Optimists will see the bright possibilities; pessimists will see the complete lack of track record. Optimists are excited by the talent of a Beason or Kennard or Cooper; pessimists note their inability to stay on the field. Optimists expect Collins and Odighizuwa to contribute quickly; pessimists point to the history of Giant rookies riding the pine. Optimists recall Spagnuolo's transformational impact in 2007; pessimists point to St. Louis and New Orleans.
Nobody is right or wrong in this discussion. And even if one side is ultimately vindicated by the results this fall, it doesn't mean the other side was wrong to disagree in June.
Quote:
I think our tight ends are going to surprise people.
Any production will surprise people. The only sure thing a tight end is Daniel fells. Outside of him can Donnell duplicate what he did minus the fumbles? Is Cunningham legit? Lacose(sp). Is Tye headed for the practice squad. Lot of question marks but I think our offense doesn't need anything special at that position just something adequate.
If you take away the Redskins game from Donnell his stats are somewhat ordinary
They may well have the worst LBs and Safeties in the league, but I don't think anyone knows that for certain right now. Beason and Kenard seem solid if they can stay healthy. Casillas should be OK. The rest are a crapshoot IMO, and Herzlich has looked awful to me.
The Safeties -- as everyone here knows -- are a total "question mark." No one knows what they're gonna be, but there is little evidence that the guys after Collins are going to be even better than average. And while Collins' future appears bright, what happens if he goes down?
So it's pretty easy to see why evaluators who are not fans of the Giants see the LB and S cup as half empty rather than half full. And they may be right, but I don't think you know in June. Anymore than you can give any meaningful grade on a current year's draft picks.
could break them. And how many games will Beeson play?
but I will give it to you again. They have limited resources they have made the decision to prioritize positions, you put your money and hi draft picks in QB, WR, CB's, DE's and OL's first. You go to Safety's, next and then RB, TE and linebackers.
The results seem to borne out because we won two superbowls with pretty lousy Linebackers.
Now I know that's not going to work for you because you believe that Linebackers are as important as WR's. And/or that you can have allstars at every positon in this time of the cap and free agency.
So there it sits.
Again, I'd use this as serious bulletin board material.
I'm more worried about CB and DT depth, to be honest.
More weapons and one year of familiarity with the system.
This team showed signs last year - re-watch the Seattle game. Couple of mistakes and got worn down by superior talent, but, game was mostly competitive.
Bromley and Jenkins....hopefully superb rotation players....
Ahh but Wynn, Avery and Odi can play inside and you'll probably see fronts of Moore, Wynn, Odi and JJP and/or Avery/Jenkins in the four aces package.
How many players would you like to feel we have enuf depth at DT?
Cause I'm cvounting ten players who might start at DT in the various packages.
Thomas could be one of those underrated pickups, much like Kawika Mitchell, that works out. Young player. At worst will help ST.
Casillas is a quick Vet who, I would like to think, is a better player than Jaquain Williams. That by itself is an improvement, let alone his ST play.
Beason has proven, if/when healthy, the guy is a rock at MLB and smart. Big injury risk. McClain is a below average backup, but capable.
Kennard flashed BIG time talent in limites snaps last year. IF healthy, and more experienced, he will be an asset as a blitzing LB in Spags' blitz-heavy defense.
As for the Safeties, they are assuming that neither Berhe or Taylor will be able to take the next step. Nobody knows how they are going to progress. Taylor has always flashed potential, but again, never healthy.
Collins is first-round pick material. Smart. With a chip on his shoulder. Ill take my chances with him. I also think he is way more talented that Gibril Wilson AND James Butler, who were the safeties the last time this defense and DC were successful.
Bromley and Jenkins....hopefully superb rotation players....
Ahh but Wynn, Avery and Odi can play inside and you'll probably see fronts of Moore, Wynn, Odi and JJP and/or Avery/Jenkins in the four aces package.
How many players would you like to feel we have enuf depth at DT?
Cause I'm cvounting ten players who might start at DT in the various packages.
Wynn and Odi would most likely play inside on passing downs. I'm not so sure how Bromley and Jenkins, at this point, are against the run.