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Graziano's Mailbag: Why Pugh makes sense at LG

Defenderdawg : 6/6/2015 2:39 pm
"I did want to address one aspect of this that came up in this space last week. Someone asked why Schwartz at right guard and Pugh at left, instead of the other way around. I gave a best-guess answer, but I asked some people about it Monday after practice and got some better answers. The Giants think Pugh is a "prototypical left guard," according to one person I spoke to, because of his strengths in pass protection and his ability to get out and pull. They believe he's well suited for that position, and the fact that he played on the left side (at tackle) in college should help smooth his transition there. Schwartz actually prefers right guard, as he's played predominantly on the right side of the line during his pro career. The only reason he was slotted in at left guard after signing with the Giants last year was because Chris Snee was still slotted at right guard, and no one was taking that spot until Snee abdicated it, by which time Schwartz had spent a good portion of the offseason program learning the offense from left guard."
Link - ( New Window )
Schwartz  
robbieballs2003 : 6/6/2015 2:44 pm : link
should have been at RG from day one. I understand the loyalty to Snee but he was done for some time. What they are doing now makes sense.
The Giants OL machinations  
bceagle05 : 6/6/2015 3:05 pm : link
have been a little strange over the years. They had no issue putting Schwartz at right tackle last year with one week's preparation, but couldn't move him to RG after Snee announced his retirement on the eve of training camp? And let's not discuss the O'Hara/Seubert center fiasco in 2010, or the Locklear/Diehl craziness in 2012.
May Have Been Richburg  
Samiam : 6/6/2015 3:57 pm : link
I think once Richburg started getting his reps in at LG, they didn't want to move him. Plus, probably helped him being next to a veteran like Beatty.

All of this Snee talk is annoying. I am 100% sure that the medical people checked Snee out and told the Giants he could play. Plus, Snee probably told the Giants the same thing until he told them he couldn't. Snee took a huge pay cut to play. He wasn't ever going to return to his all star days but they thought he could be decent and lots of OL play well into their 30s.

No one here, or in the media, knows what was said behind the scenes or what reports were written. Yet, everyone thinks they known what should have happened because they know the result.
Pugh at left guard  
AndyB : 6/6/2015 4:18 pm : link
The primary reason Pugh will play left guard is that he's a much better athlete than Schwartz, with superior footwork, balance, and lateral movement. Pugh is also better able to gather himself on the move, making him an effective downfield blocker.

For most offensive linemen making the transition from guard to tackle is not as difficult switching from one side of the line to the other. Karl Nelson played right tackle at Iowa State. In his first training camp, in 1983, the Giants tried him at left tackle. Nelson never could master the exact reversal of the techniques and fundamentals (footwork, hand placement etc...) he had used in college. After spending his rookie year on injured reserve, Nelson returned to right tackle in 1984 and remained there for the balance of his career. With extensive experience using a left-handed stance when he played left tackle at Syracuse, Pugh should have a smoother transition.

The advantage of having a better athlete at left guard manifests itself when the Giants run 36 Power, a base play in their running game that they use out of different formations and personnel groupings. The Giants usually run Power to their right. The right guard and right tackle will double-team the frontside 3-technique (defensive tackle). The tight end will reach block on the 5-technique (defensive end) and the left guard pulls across and through for the Mike (middle) linebacker. No one executed the flat pull technique that the Giants use better than Richie Seubert.

The Giants have run Power hundreds of times through the years for thousands of yards, but less so recently as they've moved from primarily a gap scheme (Power, Weakside Bob etc..) to a zone scheme running game. Now, with a better athlete at left guard, we'll see if they return to it.
Thank you, AndyB ....  
Manny in CA : 6/6/2015 5:12 pm : link
Sounds like you know your stuff; it's almost like listening to Sirius Radio's Pat Kirwan. I haven't seen you post much, but I'm looking to read your thoughts on a variety of football subjects.

100% agree about Pugh at LG.

Good post, Andy.  
Klaatu : 6/6/2015 5:13 pm : link
You should do it more often.
Holy shit Andy  
Canton : 6/6/2015 5:57 pm : link




Great  
AcidTest : 6/6/2015 6:23 pm : link
post Andy.
your putting a lot on newhouse at right tackle.  
idiotsavant : 6/6/2015 6:26 pm : link
I wonder if newhouse could run power whatever from left guard,

or jones,

or if its moot in the zone scheme

flowers at right tackle might be more rational in the end
Sounds like AndyB spent last night  
CT Charlie : 6/6/2015 7:15 pm : link
at a Holiday Inn Express.



(Great work, actually.)
thanks Andy  
bc4life : 6/6/2015 9:30 pm : link
Any predictions on what can expect from Newhouse this year and why he has struggled on his previous teams?
Andy posts like this  
JCin332 : 6/6/2015 10:09 pm : link
are what makes BBI such an informative place..

Thanks and keep 'em coming..
Andy's post  
blueblood : 6/6/2015 10:20 pm : link
one of the best I have read this year.. if not THE best..
Andy -thanks  
mrvax : 6/7/2015 6:55 am : link
could have sworn the Giants were actually using 32 Power+ but I suppose with a new center and LG, they went back to 36 Power as usual.

(I'm just kidding...)
Pugh at lg will help our rookie tackle  
Ira : 6/7/2015 7:38 am : link
especially when other teams blitz.
Graziano hasn't been so negative on the Giants  
Ira : 6/7/2015 7:38 am : link
this off-season.
RE: Andy's post  
Mike in Philly : 6/7/2015 7:46 am : link
In comment 12317089 blueblood said:
Quote:
one of the best I have read this year.. if not THE best..

Absolutely agree. Thanks for sharing Andy. Do not be a stranger here.
RE: Pugh at left guard  
Victor in CT : 6/7/2015 8:26 am : link
In comment 12316832 AndyB said:
Quote:
The primary reason Pugh will play left guard is that he's a much better athlete than Schwartz, with superior footwork, balance, and lateral movement. Pugh is also better able to gather himself on the move, making him an effective downfield blocker.

For most offensive linemen making the transition from guard to tackle is not as difficult switching from one side of the line to the other. Karl Nelson played right tackle at Iowa State. In his first training camp, in 1983, the Giants tried him at left tackle. Nelson never could master the exact reversal of the techniques and fundamentals (footwork, hand placement etc...) he had used in college. After spending his rookie year on injured reserve, Nelson returned to right tackle in 1984 and remained there for the balance of his career. With extensive experience using a left-handed stance when he played left tackle at Syracuse, Pugh should have a smoother transition.

The advantage of having a better athlete at left guard manifests itself when the Giants run 36 Power, a base play in their running game that they use out of different formations and personnel groupings. The Giants usually run Power to their right. The right guard and right tackle will double-team the frontside 3-technique (defensive tackle). The tight end will reach block on the 5-technique (defensive end) and the left guard pulls across and through for the Mike (middle) linebacker. No one executed the flat pull technique that the Giants use better than Richie Seubert.

The Giants have run Power hundreds of times through the years for thousands of yards, but less so recently as they've moved from primarily a gap scheme (Power, Weakside Bob etc..) to a zone scheme running game. Now, with a better athlete at left guard, we'll see if they return to it.


Good post Andy
RE: Andy -thanks  
JCin332 : 6/7/2015 9:19 am : link
In comment 12317144 mrvax said:
Quote:
could have sworn the Giants were actually using 32 Power+ but I suppose with a new center and LG, they went back to 36 Power as usual.

(I'm just kidding...)


32, 36 whatever it takes..

Now THAT's funny!  
Klaatu : 6/7/2015 9:21 am : link
...
RE: Now THAT's funny!  
JCin332 : 6/7/2015 9:27 am : link
In comment 12317183 Klaatu said:
Quote:
...


LOL...thanks buddy!
RE: Pugh at left guard  
Montreal Man : 6/7/2015 9:53 am : link
In comment 12316832 AndyB said:
Quote:
The primary reason Pugh will play left guard is that he's a much better athlete than Schwartz, with superior footwork, balance, and lateral movement. Pugh is also better able to gather himself on the move, making him an effective downfield blocker.

For most offensive linemen making the transition from guard to tackle is not as difficult switching from one side of the line to the other. Karl Nelson played right tackle at Iowa State. In his first training camp, in 1983, the Giants tried him at left tackle. Nelson never could master the exact reversal of the techniques and fundamentals (footwork, hand placement etc...) he had used in college. After spending his rookie year on injured reserve, Nelson returned to right tackle in 1984 and remained there for the balance of his career. With extensive experience using a left-handed stance when he played left tackle at Syracuse, Pugh should have a smoother transition.

The advantage of having a better athlete at left guard manifests itself when the Giants run 36 Power, a base play in their running game that they use out of different formations and personnel groupings. The Giants usually run Power to their right. The right guard and right tackle will double-team the frontside 3-technique (defensive tackle). The tight end will reach block on the 5-technique (defensive end) and the left guard pulls across and through for the Mike (middle) linebacker. No one executed the flat pull technique that the Giants use better than Richie Seubert.

The Giants have run Power hundreds of times through the years for thousands of yards, but less so recently as they've moved from primarily a gap scheme (Power, Weakside Bob etc..) to a zone scheme running game. Now, with a better athlete at left guard, we'll see if they return to it.


Good stuff, Andy. Thanks. Hope you do more here.
Nice post, Andy  
JonC : 6/7/2015 10:14 am : link
and it reinforces the simple word we heard that NYG thinks Pugh is a superior athlete at LG. The AA, will, and smarts is what took Seubert to unexpected heights, perhaps Pugh will duplicate his success.

Once camp begins, don't be surprised if you hear a reference or two about NYG already having their own Zack Martin ...
RE: Nice post, Andy  
Strip-Sack : 6/7/2015 11:07 am : link
In comment 12317217 JonC said:
Quote:
and it reinforces the simple word we heard that NYG thinks Pugh is a superior athlete at LG. The AA, will, and smarts is what took Seubert to unexpected heights, perhaps Pugh will duplicate his success.

Once camp begins, don't be surprised if you hear a reference or two about NYG already having their own Zack Martin ...


....and just maybe, in time, they'll have their own Eric Williams at LT...:)
Bring back the weakside counter-play.  
PEEJ : 6/7/2015 12:06 pm : link
!
Again, I think Pugh will a better guard than he was a tackle, but ....  
Manny in CA : 6/7/2015 8:51 pm : link
is Marshall Newhouse an improvement at RT ?

Newhouse was a good LT with the Packers but a dismal failure at RT with the Bengals. Now, he's here and looks like the starter at RT. Needless to say, I'm concerned.

If Newhouse flops, we can always move Schwartz to RT (where he's played well before), and return Jerry to RG (hoping that either Mosely or Herman can take his job soon)

Or maybe, Newhouse makes more sense at LT and Big-Mean Flowers to RT.

I know, the Giants don't want a "musical chairs" comedy, but it might just work out that way.
RE: Again, I think Pugh will a better guard than he was a tackle, but ....  
SGMen : 6/7/2015 9:48 pm : link
In comment 12317539 Manny in CA said:
Quote:
is Marshall Newhouse an improvement at RT ?

Newhouse was a good LT with the Packers but a dismal failure at RT with the Bengals. Now, he's here and looks like the starter at RT. Needless to say, I'm concerned.

If Newhouse flops, we can always move Schwartz to RT (where he's played well before), and return Jerry to RG (hoping that either Mosely or Herman can take his job soon)

Or maybe, Newhouse makes more sense at LT and Big-Mean Flowers to RT.

I know, the Giants don't want a "musical chairs" comedy, but it might just work out that way.
If it were up to me I'd go with Newhouse at LT and leave Pugh at RT. The injury to Beatty puts a damper on things but starting a rookie, even a 9th pick, who is only 21 years old and needs technique work is likely a stretch. Eli can't afford to get killed.
Marshall Newhouse  
AndyB : 6/7/2015 10:33 pm : link
All NFL players, especially offensive linemen, through hard work and determination, are capable of significant improvement. The fundamental problem with Marshall Newhouse is that his most important deficiency, his lack of aggressiveness, will not be remedied on the practice field. All the reps and all the technique work will not make him any tougher or meaner. As a football player, either you have that or you don't.

Newhouse started three games for the Bengals last year at right tackle for the injured Andre Smith: week 10 against the Browns, week 11 versus the Saints, and week 13 against the Bucs. Even a cursory review of the coaching tape from those games clearly indicates why the Bengals replaced Newhouse with Clint Boling and, later, Eric Winston for the balance of the season and why they showed no interest in re-signing him.

In the running game Newhouse didn't come off the ball with any sense of purpose. He rarely created any movement and he often allowed the defender to establish a new line of scrimmage about one yard in the backfield. As a zone scheme blocker, he sometimes even allowed the defender to cross his face. There's no snap in his hips. He was effective on the move at the second level in sealing off the linebacker at the point of attack.

As a pass blocker, Newhouse's footwork and hat and hand placement were sloppy against the speed rushers and he showed a lack of functional strength and power against the bull rushers. He was consistently beaten to his outside by the 5,7, and 9-techniques (defensive ends) he faced on passing downs without help. His kick-slide was a little slow, even out of a two point stance. Against the power guys, Newhouse was frequently driven back into the launch point of the quarterback. That forced Andy Dalton to move his feet and made his throw far less accurate.

Aggressiveness comes naturally to the great offensive linemen. It's why, I believe, the Giants preferred Ereck Flowers over Andrus Peat in this year's draft. Peat, right out of college, is a fairly polished technician. He'll effectively block his man for four quarters, then he'll shake his hand at the end of the game and wish him good health for the rest of the season. That's not a knock on Peat. He's an excellent prospect who will have a fine career.

Flowers, on the other hand, brings a different kind of temperament. He intuitively understands the psychology of the line of scrimmage; that football's surest, most time-tested path to victory involves breaking your opponent's will and making him quit. In the fourth quarter, with the Giants in the lead, that 270-pound defensive end who's lined up against Flowers all day will be breathing hard with his hands on his hips. At that point, that guy's got one foot in the parking lot. Just two or three plays later, he's had enough. He's done for the day.

Ereck Flowers will make a lot of guys quit. Over time, as he refines his technique, especially regarding his hand placement and his coordination between his hands and his feet, he will develop into an outstanding offensive tackle. He reminds me of Erik Williams and, especially, Orlando Brown, but with quicker feet.

I don't know who will be the Giants' starting right tackle on opening night in Dallas, but I don't believe it will be Marshall Newhouse.

My sincere thanks to everyone for all the kind words.
I just found this article ....  
Manny in CA : 6/7/2015 11:02 pm : link
About the Newhouse 2011 & 2012 stats - sacks allowed 10 1/2 and 11. (middle of the article - [Measuring the O-Line]).

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-season-by-the-numbers-2b8e0bo-187406961.html

Not very hopeful.
another great post, AndyB -  
Del Shofner : 6/7/2015 11:15 pm : link
we will see what happens at RT, but sounds like your prediction is very fact-based (unfortunately).
Ditto to what Del said ...  
Manny in CA : 6/7/2015 11:49 pm : link
Darn it, just when we were all seeing the Proverbial "End of the tunnel"; now the waters are dark and murky, again.
The Giants are still going to need to continue to draft an OL high in  
Optimus-NY : 6/8/2015 6:47 am : link
the upcoming year, and most likely thereafter.
You have to put players in the best position to succeed. If Pugh's  
Victor in CT : 6/8/2015 7:45 am : link
best position is LG, then he should play there. If you leave him at RT because Newhouse or whomever else isnt great then you weaken 2 positions
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