|
|
Â
|
| Quote: |
| New York Giants: Mathis held out of workouts due to a contract dispute and is the latest in a long line of players to defect from Chip Kelly island with a bit of an attitude. Is there a better place for him to go than a division rival that desperately needs help along their offensive line? The Giants, who have lost left tackle Will Beatty for the foreseeable future, are now depending on rookie Ereck Flowers to hold down the position. Signing Mathis would at least give them an immediate-assistance option to Flowers' inside, or he could give them the flexibility of moving guard/tackle Geoff Schwartz to tackle. Mathis, a zone blocking specialist, would feel relatively at home in a scheme not unlike the one he used to run with Andy Reid. Offensive coordinator Ben McAdoo brought many zone principles with him from Green Bay. --Conor Orr |
Obviously but there is no cohesion yet. Pugh has LG cohesion over playing tackle the last two years for the Giants?? Because of a few OTA's??
Quote:
and to not play musical chairs, cohesion is vital.
Obviously but there is no cohesion yet. Pugh has LG cohesion over playing tackle the last two years for the Giants?? Because of a few OTA's??
Yes. It's not like Pugh has been playing LG for an entire training camp.
Well, if he wants to play the left side, that settles it then.
Who's this better player?
Schwartz's best play has come at RG.
That would be my line.
nail meet head
The professionals don't have Mathis on the roster yet.
Still, exciting to think about.
Get it done, Jerry!
That said, do you guys really want to spend $6 million or more per season for a 34-year old guard?
What the Giants' Justin Pugh did this offseason that should help him thrive as a guard - ( New Window )
Their approach here is a longer term strategy, I get that too.
Might be better to see if a Sean Locklear type tackle shakes loose in September.
But I'm surprised so many people would rather see Flowers and Pugh on the left side. I'm not too worried about Pugh but who knows how Flowers will even perform as a rookie, especially at a position like LT. Give me Flowers-Mathis-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh to start the season and if Flowers is struggling, at least you still have Newhouse who could work and Beatty will be back late in the season. The depth would be nice with Mathis too assuming nobody else gets hurt... but you someone else will get hurt. It's just a question of when. Which makes me want to see the signing happen even more.
I just don't think it's as good a match as people are making it out. He wants big bucks. He will be 34. He missed seven games last year. I'm not sure NYGs make sense for him if he is looking for a winner and big bucks.
2015 will be a big year for him.
You're ASSUMING he'll get 11 mill over 2 years..No one's gonna pay an in-season 34 year-old that kind of money, imo..
Not sure of the numbers, but I see perhaps 5-6 mill guaranteed over the life of the contract..That's what we should be looking at when we discuss the feasibility of bringing him in imo..
Would we even consider paying him THAT? No idea, but I'd hope so
Quote:
Mathis at right Guard
Schwartz's best play has come at RG.
Not really. He looked better at right tackle than guard last season
The problem he had with the Eagles according to PFT, was that a verbal commitment was made to him by Roseman when he was there..When Roseman left, the Eagles position was effectively, "we cannot be responsible for what was agreed to with Mathis and a former employee." That's what pissed Mathis off the most. ahe saw that as the ultimate reneg
Pugh's play at RT last season is one of the reasons why Flowers is now a Giant.
Quote:
kick out to RT again and Mathis play guard that way?
Pugh's play at RT last season is one of the reasons why Flowers is now a Giant.
WRONG Mason..Pugh had NOTHING to do with Flowers being drafted..He played with one arm for most of the year..You were aware that that was one of the main reasons for his fall off, yes?
Pugh is better fitted for LT where he can use his footwork and technique without having to worry about dealing with LEs who set up to stop the run.
Mathis contends that the team offered an upgrade to his deal a year ago, and that the team pulled the offer from the table, explaining that, because Howie Roseman no longer is the General Manager, the offer is no longer valid.
Link - ( New Window )
Mathis miffed at Eagles pulling offer from table - ( New Window )
(1) Other teams won't compete for his services.
(2) A soon-to-be 34-year old Pro Bowl guard will be willing to accept a long-term deal that is clearly back-loaded, making it obvious that he will never see the bulk of that money.
Is it possible? Sure. But I don't think it is likely. Again, if they sign him, great. But I have a hard time seeing it.
I didn't say his injury didn't have any impact on his play last season.
Quote:
suffered greatly last year?
I didn't say his injury didn't have any impact on his play last season.
The point is, you inferred that because Pugh's play sucked last year, it prompted the Giants to go after Flowers..Why would the Giants do that if they knew WHY Pugh had a pretty bad year? Now if Pugh out and out sucked while healthy, we're talking a different ballgame..Flowers was drafted as a hedge against Beatty and Schwartz..They needed an OLT for the future and determined Flowers would be that guy..Nothing to do with Pugh, imv
1) a prognosis on Beatty
2) Ditto Jake Long
3) A sense of Flowers progress at technique improvement
4) a sense of Newhouse
5) a sense of how much John Jerry's play was impacted by having a bad center next to him on one side and an injured RT on the other side.
They probably also have a better idea of Mathis strike price than we do.
Whoops. I meant Mathis and Pugh. Schwartz can play RT.
The coaching staff see these guys and should know what is best for the team and if they think Pugh is an OG than I can't argue.
link - ( New Window )
(1) Schwartz had to sit out of at least one "non-contact" OTA practice (the one the media could see on Monday) last week. He said he has "good days and bad days" I assume with his ankle and not toe. How much of that is going to be an issue this year?
(2) How comfortable are the Giants playing Schwartz at right tackle if they want to keep Pugh at guard?
I'm sure the FO will be looking to bring in other players to provided competition and better depth. But idk if bring in an expensive old player is the answer. Part of the reason for the team's mess was holding on to aging vets.
Everyone wants an OL like Dallas. Who wouldn't. But Dallas was very patient in adding one high draft pick one year at a time. It appears NYG are trying to do the same. I think you need to let the young guys play at potentially their best spot.
Quote:
@PFF_Pete: For those asking, it's hard to find a much bigger OL upgrade than John Jerry to Evan Mathis. #Giants
Unless you're playing against Aaron Donald. Go figure
Might be better to see if a Sean Locklear type tackle shakes loose in September.
Or Jake Long
Quote:
If they could get two great years out of him, maybe. But he just balked at his current $11.5 million in 2015/16. So he obviously wants more than that. At 34? That makes me nervous.
Might be better to see if a Sean Locklear type tackle shakes loose in September.
Or Jake Long
Bam Bam Bamiro, baby. Book it.
oops. Sorry for the "book it," FMiC.
I think with this guy ...everythings different. I think he's "changing".
Eli and Tom are near the end. One more ring cements their legacy, one more ring marks this whole period as great.
The hell with prudence and tommorrow. I am totally enthusiastic ....I see a really deep and great front four, the best linebackers we've had in decades, great corners and , out of the blue, strong physical Safety's.
I like our TE situation, I think we have a once in a generation receiver and great supproting cast.
I think our specials are going to be very good and we'll win a couple of games just because of Harris.
The Beatty injury holds all of that hostage. I don't think you can open with Flowers at OLT and Newhouse of ORT.
This kid improves everything.
Get him, damn the cost, next year will have it's own problems. Short term, overpay, like we did for Canty and Rolle because we were in a similiar situation.
I am calling Reese personally, I think I'll take him and Mara both out for lunch and lay the law down. GEt this done.
Adding Long would be worrisome with injury history..esp on a team prone to the injury bug.
Adding Long would be a calculated risk, indeed, but a much less expensive and easier to jettison risk in the end. Ultimately, I'll stick with them looking for a tackle upgrade rather than an OG.
If they sign Mathis I'd feel better about the OL talent, but history suggests it's a low percentage conversion for NYG.
Haha. I laugh because it is true. But at least this time it would be for an established All-Pro player rather than some vet not many people have heard of that mildly surpirses but never impresses.
- He won't have to move.
- He clearly would love to pay back the Eagles.
Whenever an old friend mentions Kelly to another, or they see him being interviewed on television, the other responds, "Chip Kelly doesn't give a (bleep).''
Kelly showed that image again Thursday, when he released Pro Bowl guard Evan Mathis, who, at this point, had skipped the team's three weeks of OTAs and was dissatisfied with a contract that was going to pay him $5.5 million this season.
When you're unhappy with a very fair (if not overly fair) contract and skip "voluntary'' but somewhat meaningful workouts, you end up on the intersection of LeSean McCoy Boulevard and DeSean Jackson Way, because — all together now — Chip Kelly "doesn't give a (bleep).''
Eagles' Chip Kelly shows once again he doesn't give a (bleep) - ( New Window )
Like Newhouse. Yeah, ok.
Quote:
but it's been acknowledged they want a better player at RT, they want to progress and improve the '14 OL.
Like Newhouse. Yeah, ok.
No, like Beatty or Flowers when all are healthy.
Look, they're betting on cohesion and we already know they're unlikely to spend big UFA dollars on the OL. It is what it is, and drop the sarcasm.
They want the left side set with Flowers-Pugh-Richburg, Schwartz at RG, leaving only RT to play musical chairs.
Different player at LT, LG, C, and RG with all mostly being huge upgrades assuming Mathis is signed.
They want the left side set with Flowers-Pugh-Richburg, Schwartz at RG, leaving only RT to play musical chairs.
So your solution assuming we signed Mathis would be to move Shwartz to RT??? Yet an even bigger player the Giants see as a guard?? A player that has had exactly one start at RT for us?
This. Safest play imo. He'd easily be half the cost as Mathis and is a LT, also 4 years younger.
Not remotely, and I've confirmed it.
Nothing new on Long, they're monitoring his progress.
We can go ahead and not worry about the cap. Those folks can make a deal work if the money is fair.
we've got 3 G's we feel good about. we apparently love pugh at LG and have schwartz/jerry at RG. logically we will not spend big $$$ on another G.
I'm with Eric. This is why we don't have cap space every year. Go after Jake Long if we want another OL. 4 years younger, cheaper, and does require shifting the entire line to plug him in.
Money and the investments the Giants have in the guard position with Pugh now at the position where they envisioned him and Schwartz our high priced FA from last year.
The only thing I hope that doesn't come back to bite the Giants is them HOPING Schwartz is healthy opposed to KNOWING Schwartz is healthy.
Last year the writing was on the wall with Snee being done, but they banked on him playing anyway. I heard in June he couldn't even walk through the facility without limping but we still went into training camp with him penciled in as starter with John Jerry as the only depth coming off knee surgery on a minimum contract. Mind boggling. The Giants just hoped instead of using common sense.
As Eric laid out above, Schwartz had two major injuries last year, has been re-habbing all off-season which takes away from regular work outs. He has already sat out practices and even said "some days are better than others" He doesn't sound healthy to me. Schwartz is a big big man and having feet problems are not ideal. I sincerely hope they just aren't hoping he's going to be fine and miss out on a player like Mathis and stuck with John Jerry again.
Although I we aren't in a strict "rebuild" mode, I wouldn't characterize our direction as "must win now" mode either, so the value of tying up money to a 34 year old does not seem ideal.
If they thought they were close, perhaps a more short-term investment would make sense. The team's historical actions indicate they tend to think long-term in all their moves, but I'm just curious if anyone else had the same thought. But I also think the team is a year or two away from competing, so this could be me searching for confirmation.
Yep. I would be fine with Newhouse/Long/one of the young guys step up until Beatty gets back to build cohesion at the other 4 spots, that's of course assuming Schwartz was the player we thought we were getting. I put it at 50/50 he is both effective and healthy. Schwartz health is a big issue that has not gotten much press or conversation.
Decent chance, last year is repeated all over again and until Beatty gets back we see a shuffling of RT and RG.
Quote:
Totally agree, duder. And, I have no explanation why they repeat the mistakes.
Yep. I would be fine with Newhouse/Long/one of the young guys step up until Beatty gets back to build cohesion at the other 4 spots, that's of course assuming Schwartz was the player we thought we were getting. I put it at 50/50 he is both effective and healthy. Schwartz health is a big issue that has not gotten much press or conversation.
Decent chance, last year is repeated all over again and until Beatty gets back we see a shuffling of RT and RG.
BE, Jonc: Agree with both of you. I have been pounding on the Schwartz health/skill issue for a while. He has only dressed for 31 of 64 games over the past 4 years, started just 9!
If they thought they were close, perhaps a more short-term investment would make sense. The team's historical actions indicate they tend to think long-term in all their moves, but I'm just curious if anyone else had the same thought. But I also think the team is a year or two away from competing, so this could be me searching for confirmation.
This is my exact thought process. While I obviously hope we are competing for at least a WC spot, I don't think Mathis would put over the hump into contending. And he clearly has no long term fit either.
Agree. Also, when Beatty becomes available who sits - Flowers, Pugh, or Beatty. Doesn't seem like a smart allocation of resource and does nothing for developing the line moving forward.
If Newhouse or one of the younger guys can not show they are competent to be a placeholder, NYG likely to bring in someone else to whom they don't have to make a long term commitment. Hence, the interest in Long if he gets healthy.
But when you're talking about arguably the best player at his position in the NFL, you simply have to see if something can be done. A 2 year deal would hardly destroy the Giants' cap situation, especially if he's productive.
Then you have Pugh. A young player who the coaching staff thinks could be an excellent LOG. Bringing in Mathis would stop the development of Pugh as a LOG which the coaches think could be his best position. Than there is the question what to do about Flowers,Pugh & Beatty. Who plays?
My point was we aren't at a stage where we sacrifice future flexibility at all costs to get an OG because we need a placeholder for 8 games and would shift our entire line in order to do so. I don't view him as a game changer in that respect, added to the fact hes been in a zone blocking scheme. I don't think his skill set at this age warrants a change in our entire philosophy.
Plus, the Eagles run game got worse when they plugged him back into the lineup. Read it in the ESPN report and I can't remember the exact YPC dropoff but it was noticeable.
Last year I was banging the table for Rogers Gaines...for all the good it did.
Quote:
and hopefully to a better position for him. He was ok at RT in '13, but the team's seen enough to make the decision to kick him inside. Kicking him back to RT puts the OL where it was in '14, and they're trying to move on from that. It would also be a temporary plug that creates multiple OL changes at mid-season when Beatty's healthy.
They want the left side set with Flowers-Pugh-Richburg, Schwartz at RG, leaving only RT to play musical chairs.
So your solution assuming we signed Mathis would be to move Shwartz to RT??? Yet an even bigger player the Giants see as a guard?? A player that has had exactly one start at RT for us?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Schwartz has RT experience and has even said he could man the position. The Giants have said they view Pugh as a prototycial LG and draft guys said he's a future pro bowl LG when he was picked. Get him to LG and get the left side set for years
I totally agree with JonC and think moving Pugh back to RT is a short sighted move
Quote:
I know Long is a long shot b/c of the knee but I'd rather strike gold with him than Mathis - although I don't agree with the "we're not a contender" business. In today's NFL things can turn on a dime as long as you have a QB.
My point was we aren't at a stage where we sacrifice future flexibility at all costs to get an OG because we need a placeholder for 8 games and would shift our entire line in order to do so. I don't view him as a game changer in that respect, added to the fact hes been in a zone blocking scheme. I don't think his skill set at this age warrants a change in our entire philosophy.
Plus, the Eagles run game got worse when they plugged him back into the lineup. Read it in the ESPN report and I can't remember the exact YPC dropoff but it was noticeable.
This was my thought process as well.
I think Micko raised a good point on the 'unknowable' nature of the NFL - I certainly didn't anticipate 2013 to turn out the way it did. But if I were to bet, I think the most likely scenario is an 8-10 win season. I'd be surprised if the team made a deep run this year.
Hear what you are saying. I know you can't read to much into OTA. But the fact Bamiro was getting some 2nd team LT snaps, it would appear that he is at least being given the opportunity to win the swing tackle spot.
It wouldn't be a change in philosophy. Zone blocking is certainly part of what they do right now.