Mets
Curtis Granderson, RF
Juan Lagares, CF
Lucas Duda, 1B
Michael Cuddyer, DH
Travis d'Arnaud, C
Wilmer Flores, SS
John Mayberry Jr., LF
Ruben Tejada, 3B
Dilson Herrera, 2B
Bartolo Colon, RHP
Blue Jays
Jose Reyes, SS
Josh Donaldson, 3B
Jose Bautista, DH
Justin Smoak, 1B
Chris Colabello, LF
Russell Martin, C
Ezequiel Carrera, RF
Kevin Pillar, CF
Ryan Goins, 2B
R.A. Dickey, RHP
But, the fact that people are focusing on THAT unturned DP in tonight's game is proof that people are so over the top, irrational about Flores' defense. That's what makes these threads so hard to stomach. It's less about me or Z being Flores "cheerleaders" and more about being more realistic on why we lost the game. But everyone thinks they are right...so...this is what we get. Then add the village idiot running around the place looking for his helmut while spouting off the ignorant ramblings of a turnip.
We all want Simmons at SS...Flores will never be that. But we could do a lot worse. There was plenty of blame to go around tonight. A lot should be on Colon. He got a raw deal tonight, for sure, but he was also really bad.
But, the fact that people are focusing on THAT unturned DP in tonight's game is proof that people are so over the top, irrational about Flores' defense. That's what makes these threads so hard to stomach. It's less about me or Z being Flores "cheerleaders" and more about being more realistic on why we lost the game. But everyone thinks they are right...so...this is what we get. Then add the village idiot running around the place looking for his helmut while spouting off the ignorant ramblings of a turnip.
We all want Simmons at SS...Flores will never be that. But we could do a lot worse. There was plenty of blame to go around tonight. A lot should be on Colon. He got a raw deal tonight, for sure, but he was also really bad.
Post of the year. Because it was sound as a pound and I almost spit up my drink laughing on the village idiot part. lol
fact that people are focusing on THAT unturned DP in tonight's game is proof that people are so over the top, irrational about Flores' defense. .
Lol - you're a joke. You defended Flores and had not even watched the game. You referred to highlights later and still don't recognize many, including the Mets announcer and the post game show, were on Flores for the botched line drive. You're nuts.
If we move Flores off SS, where are we putting him? If you put him at 3B, there's nowhere to put Murphy. If Wright does come back, you have to take him out of the lineup.
There's no way we're moving Herrera off 2B.
And the even bigger question is who do people want to play SS instead? Tejada? No thank you. Reynolds isn't going to be the answer. Cecchini isn't ready. Rosario is 2 years away.. at least.
Are we supposed to unload top prospects for Tulo, who, value-wise hasn't provided much more than Flores, who is injury prone and whose numbers will almost assuredly dip some once he leaves Coors?
Where is this defensive whiz that we're supposed to plug in at SS who won't be a major downgrade offensively from Wilmer?
There's so much complaining and whining about the IF situation but no one seems to offer up any viable alternatives.
If we move Flores off SS, where are we putting him? If you put him at 3B, there's nowhere to put Murphy. If Wright does come back, you have to take him out of the lineup.
There's no way we're moving Herrera off 2B.
And the even bigger question is who do people want to play SS instead? Tejada? No thank you. Reynolds isn't going to be the answer. Cecchini isn't ready. Rosario is 2 years away.. at least.
Are we supposed to unload top prospects for Tulo, who, value-wise hasn't provided much more than Flores, who is injury prone and whose numbers will almost assuredly dip some once he leaves Coors?
Where is this defensive whiz that we're supposed to plug in at SS who won't be a major downgrade offensively from Wilmer?
There's so much complaining and whining about the IF situation but no one seems to offer up any viable alternatives.
Great post as usual. And oh they'll offer up great alternatives like Castro and Desmond in the offseason and then go into hiding about those players after realizing that Flores has been better than them all.
And why does moving a player who's greatest asset is his bazooka of an arm to 2nd make any sense anyway? I could see 3rd base possibly in his future down the road, but right now we have Wright and Murphy in his way.
If we move Flores off SS, where are we putting him? If you put him at 3B, there's nowhere to put Murphy. If Wright does come back, you have to take him out of the lineup.
There's no way we're moving Herrera off 2B.
And the even bigger question is who do people want to play SS instead? Tejada? No thank you. Reynolds isn't going to be the answer. Cecchini isn't ready. Rosario is 2 years away.. at least.
Are we supposed to unload top prospects for Tulo, who, value-wise hasn't provided much more than Flores, who is injury prone and whose numbers will almost assuredly dip some once he leaves Coors?
Where is this defensive whiz that we're supposed to plug in at SS who won't be a major downgrade offensively from Wilmer?
There's so much complaining and whining about the IF situation but no one seems to offer up any viable alternatives.
Thank you... all this whining and complaining when as you said there are no viable alternatives. And forget the fact, Flores is playing his 1st full season at SS at 23 yrs old. And forget the fact, he has also WON a few games for the Mets and has been getting more and more comfortable playing everyday which has shown with his play on the field and at the plate. He's improving folks and WILL CONTINUE to improve.
You hypocrite lol
You never even leave the keyboard and respond to to 90% of the posts here. Most of the cheerleaders go nuts defending or praising anything in Flores direction. Nobody can post about the guy without the cheerleaders chiming in.
Good lord - it's supposed to be discussing baseball not "he's the greatest, a target, you're a troll' BS.
but the offense would really take off when TDA and Herera returned.
The "fucking" blue jays? You mean that had won 10 in a row before Monday, and had scored 80+ runs during that time? Those Blue Jays??
It's not like they lost to the Phillies, for crissakes. They got blown out. It happens.
Comical, eh? Alright Maverick.. let's hear your plan.
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What a fucking disgrace
The "fucking" blue jays? You mean that had won 10 in a row before Monday, and had scored 80+ runs during that time? Those Blue Jays??
It's not like they lost to the Phillies, for crissakes. They got blown out. It happens.
Oh so the blue jays are some juggernaut now? Didn't the mets win 11 in a row also? How is that working out for them?
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In comment 12334308 Giants4246 said:
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What a fucking disgrace
The "fucking" blue jays? You mean that had won 10 in a row before Monday, and had scored 80+ runs during that time? Those Blue Jays??
It's not like they lost to the Phillies, for crissakes. They got blown out. It happens.
Oh so the blue jays are some juggernaut now? Didn't the mets win 11 in a row also? How is that working out for them?
Ummm - Mets won 11 games back in April, clearly they have struggled since then. Blue Jays JUST won 10 games in a row, and have been playing out of their freakin' minds. Mets are the only team to beat them in the last two weeks.
Do you really not see the difference?
If we move Flores off SS, where are we putting him? If you put him at 3B, there's nowhere to put Murphy. If Wright does come back, you have to take him out of the lineup.
There's no way we're moving Herrera off 2B.
And the even bigger question is who do people want to play SS instead? Tejada? No thank you. Reynolds isn't going to be the answer. Cecchini isn't ready. Rosario is 2 years away.. at least.
Are we supposed to unload top prospects for Tulo, who, value-wise hasn't provided much more than Flores, who is injury prone and whose numbers will almost assuredly dip some once he leaves Coors?
Where is this defensive whiz that we're supposed to plug in at SS who won't be a major downgrade offensively from Wilmer?
There's so much complaining and whining about the IF situation but no one seems to offer up any viable alternatives.
That's the sad part of it all, with the dearth of potential solutions there isn't anything to offer. Regardless of whether it's the SS position, 3rd base, LF, RF or a given SP, we have every concern and right to reference a miscue or poor play if it's warranted. And for those who aren't comfortable with the concept of criticism, take a step back and understand that it's nothing more than frustration ...it's not a personal affront.
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In comment 12334314 speedywheels said:
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In comment 12334308 Giants4246 said:
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What a fucking disgrace
The "fucking" blue jays? You mean that had won 10 in a row before Monday, and had scored 80+ runs during that time? Those Blue Jays??
It's not like they lost to the Phillies, for crissakes. They got blown out. It happens.
Oh so the blue jays are some juggernaut now? Didn't the mets win 11 in a row also? How is that working out for them?
Ummm - Mets won 11 games back in April, clearly they have struggled since then. Blue Jays JUST won 10 games in a row, and have been playing out of their freakin' minds. Mets are the only team to beat them in the last two weeks.
Do you really not see the difference?
What exactly is your point? Are you defending being shut out last night and then following that up tonight with 3 goddamn hits? Can this team play one fucking game without making an error?
No, it doesn't excuse scoring one run in two games, or playing such poor defense.
But its not "a fucking disgrace" to lose to a team that hadn't lost in almost two weeks.
Shit happens. Back at it tomorrow..
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Presenting the question like it's a new idea is comical.
Comical, eh? Alright Maverick.. let's hear your plan.
Again so you can claim anybody who you disagrees with you is the dumbest poster here? Thanks but I'll stick with those who don't go flying off the handles like they got hit in the head with a Flying Puck.
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What the hell is the alternative?
If we move Flores off SS, where are we putting him? If you put him at 3B, there's nowhere to put Murphy. If Wright does come back, you have to take him out of the lineup.
There's no way we're moving Herrera off 2B.
And the even bigger question is who do people want to play SS instead? Tejada? No thank you. Reynolds isn't going to be the answer. Cecchini isn't ready. Rosario is 2 years away.. at least.
Are we supposed to unload top prospects for Tulo, who, value-wise hasn't provided much more than Flores, who is injury prone and whose numbers will almost assuredly dip some once he leaves Coors?
Where is this defensive whiz that we're supposed to plug in at SS who won't be a major downgrade offensively from Wilmer?
There's so much complaining and whining about the IF situation but no one seems to offer up any viable alternatives.
That's the sad part of it all, with the dearth of potential solutions there isn't anything to offer. Regardless of whether it's the SS position, 3rd base, LF, RF or a given SP, we have every concern and right to reference a miscue or poor play if it's warranted. And for those who aren't comfortable with the concept of criticism, take a step back and understand that it's nothing more than frustration ...it's not a personal affront.
That's fine.. I didn't say to never criticize anyone. But this is where we are at right now. We are hoping Flores continues to improve or that one of the kids in the pipe will force our hand and take over the position. There's really not an obvious alternative staring us in the face that would improve the situation right now and to be honest, we have bigger issues than the IF defense.
Its' just grating when every single thread turns into this same thing after a loss.
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In comment 12334309 Giants2012 said:
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Presenting the question like it's a new idea is comical.
Comical, eh? Alright Maverick.. let's hear your plan.
Again so you can claim anybody who you disagrees with you is the dumbest poster here? Thanks but I'll stick with those who don't go flying off the handles like they got hit in the head with a Flying Puck.
That's what I thought. You've got nothing.
Complain away, Maverick.
That's what I thought. You've got nothing.
Complain away, Maverick.
Crosby lol - you got schooled both here and in the NHL thread. Don't blame me b/c you can't learn or recall. I posted my solutions here like the NHL threads. You're the one with nothing more than a Flying Puck to the arrogant mouth. Man up or Crosby off as usual.
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What the hell is the alternative?
If we move Flores off SS, where are we putting him? If you put him at 3B, there's nowhere to put Murphy. If Wright does come back, you have to take him out of the lineup.
There's no way we're moving Herrera off 2B.
And the even bigger question is who do people want to play SS instead? Tejada? No thank you. Reynolds isn't going to be the answer. Cecchini isn't ready. Rosario is 2 years away.. at least.
Are we supposed to unload top prospects for Tulo, who, value-wise hasn't provided much more than Flores, who is injury prone and whose numbers will almost assuredly dip some once he leaves Coors?
Where is this defensive whiz that we're supposed to plug in at SS who won't be a major downgrade offensively from Wilmer?
There's so much complaining and whining about the IF situation but no one seems to offer up any viable alternatives.
That's the sad part of it all, with the dearth of potential solutions there isn't anything to offer. Regardless of whether it's the SS position, 3rd base, LF, RF or a given SP, we have every concern and right to reference a miscue or poor play if it's warranted. And for those who aren't comfortable with the concept of criticism, take a step back and understand that it's nothing more than frustration ...it's not a personal affront.
"it's not a personal affront"
Neither is our defense of Flores. There two differing points. I think us Flores supporters have very good points against those who are acting out of frustration.
Criticism is fine...illogical or unreasonable criticism is fair game to be debated. I could easily say that the Flores critics shouldn't be so close minded. Goes both ways.
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That's what I thought. You've got nothing.
Complain away, Maverick.
Crosby lol - you got schooled both here and in the NHL thread. Don't blame me b/c you can't learn or recall. I posted my solutions here like the NHL threads. You're the one with nothing more than a Flying Puck to the arrogant mouth. Man up or Crosby off as usual.
C'mon.. let's talk baseball, Maverick. What's your solution for the infield. I'm giving you the mic. Let's hear it.
No, it doesn't excuse scoring one run in two games, or playing such poor defense.
But its not "a fucking disgrace" to lose to a team that hadn't lost in almost two weeks.
Shit happens. Back at it tomorrow..
Ok so the jays have been hot the past few weeks but make no mistake about it, they are a mediocre team. As a matter of fact, they were 7 games under .500 before their miracle 11 game win streak. So no, i'm not impressed with the jays. The mets can just as easily get outscored 15-1 in 2 games to the phillies. Thats the fucking disgrace. The offense sucks, the defense sucks, godforbid colon or harvey have a hiccup and get bombed, this team has no shot in those games.
Gosh guys, get a grip. It's a baseball thread.
Lol. You think nicer thoughts than me. Ill hope thats the case. At first I just thought he was really young but now Im genuinely scared we are all dealing with somebody who really doesn't know any better.
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In comment 12334292 arcarsenal said:
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What the hell is the alternative?
If we move Flores off SS, where are we putting him? If you put him at 3B, there's nowhere to put Murphy. If Wright does come back, you have to take him out of the lineup.
There's no way we're moving Herrera off 2B.
And the even bigger question is who do people want to play SS instead? Tejada? No thank you. Reynolds isn't going to be the answer. Cecchini isn't ready. Rosario is 2 years away.. at least.
Are we supposed to unload top prospects for Tulo, who, value-wise hasn't provided much more than Flores, who is injury prone and whose numbers will almost assuredly dip some once he leaves Coors?
Where is this defensive whiz that we're supposed to plug in at SS who won't be a major downgrade offensively from Wilmer?
There's so much complaining and whining about the IF situation but no one seems to offer up any viable alternatives.
That's the sad part of it all, with the dearth of potential solutions there isn't anything to offer. Regardless of whether it's the SS position, 3rd base, LF, RF or a given SP, we have every concern and right to reference a miscue or poor play if it's warranted. And for those who aren't comfortable with the concept of criticism, take a step back and understand that it's nothing more than frustration ...it's not a personal affront.
That's fine.. I didn't say to never criticize anyone. But this is where we are at right now. We are hoping Flores continues to improve or that one of the kids in the pipe will force our hand and take over the position. There's really not an obvious alternative staring us in the face that would improve the situation right now and to be honest, we have bigger issues than the IF defense.
Its' just grating when every single thread turns into this same thing after a loss.
It's compounded by the fact that they weren't even competitive these last two nights. Shutout for the better part of two games and outscored 15 to 1 ...you can't help but shake your head at that shit.
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Very few of his sentences read coherently. They're very oddly structured and hard to follow. It reminds me of Peggy from those Capital One commercials.
Lol. You think nicer thoughts than me. Ill hope thats the case. At first I just thought he was really young but now Im genuinely scared we are all dealing with somebody who really doesn't know any better.
Like I said, a turnip. He literally does nothing but bitch and moan and berate EVERYBODY. It's fascinating really.
Gosh guys, get a grip. It's a baseball thread.
Ah.. folding again, Maverick? All talk. Thought you had all the answers.. you know, since it was so "comical" that I had even questioned it.
Til tomorrow.
Night, gents!
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In comment 12334352 arcarsenal said:
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Very few of his sentences read coherently. They're very oddly structured and hard to follow. It reminds me of Peggy from those Capital One commercials.
Lol. You think nicer thoughts than me. Ill hope thats the case. At first I just thought he was really young but now Im genuinely scared we are all dealing with somebody who really doesn't know any better.
Like I said, a turnip. He literally does nothing but bitch and moan and berate EVERYBODY. It's fascinating really.
I just think he might genuinely have a condition or something. I literally could see him in his living room with his laptop wearing a helmet. Not even joking.
I believe the bigger part of this is a backlash against the FO that they simply have never prioritized defense. They are flanking Lagares with 2 sub standard COF'ers and regardless of the hope we have for Flores to improve we know beyond any doubt Murphy is a bad defensive player. Rubin has been making a lot of comments the past few days on twitter about the FO's stance on defense and to me it's pretty disconcerting in the sense that they just don't think it's that important. They built a team founded on pitching and have left themselves wide open to losing close games because of bad defense. Flores is just a part of that equation for me. Granderson, Cuddyer, Murphy, Duda are equal contributors being average at best defensive players making up an average at best defensive team when the ball's hit anywhere other than CF.
so this team needs to do something. The beauty of 162 games you get to identify the idiots and their responses. You see a response from them, you just go past them. The continuity is off, but you can still enjoy talking baseball with real fans of the team
I believe the bigger part of this is a backlash against the FO that they simply have never prioritized defense. They are flanking Lagares with 2 sub standard COF'ers and regardless of the hope we have for Flores to improve we know beyond any doubt Murphy is a bad defensive player. Rubin has been making a lot of comments the past few days on twitter about the FO's stance on defense and to me it's pretty disconcerting in the sense that they just don't think it's that important. They built a team founded on pitching and have left themselves wide open to losing close games because of bad defense. Flores is just a part of that equation for me. Granderson, Cuddyer, Murphy, Duda are equal contributors being average at best defensive players making up an average at best defensive team when the ball's hit anywhere other than CF.
But there's no opening at 2B long-term. Herrera was hitting like .370 in Vegas.. he has nothing left to learn there. We're not sending him back unless he's like.. woefully terrible for an extended time.
The only way Dilson is going to become the player we have hopes for is for him to play every day at the MLB level now. He's here and 2B is his for the foreseeable future. So moving Wilmer there is basically out of the question as far as I'm concerned.
I think a bigger problem is that we can't score. If we really, really want to prioritize defense we can... but that gives us even less offense. You don't win games by just pitching and defending. There's this misconception that SF just keeps winning WS' by blanking everyone and playing good defense but even they were an above average run-producing team last year.
The Mets will win nothing if they're in the bottom 3rd of the league in runs. Even if the defense were to improve somehow (which, I still don't see any realistic options unless you want to deliberately make the team worse by making Tejada the full time SS again and benching Flores or trading he or Murphy.. even then, if Wright returns, we have another log jam)
Lindsay - ( New Window )
And yes, Herrera has almost certainly reached the point where the only way for him to improve is by getting PT here in the majors. The last guys who deserve criticism on this team are the young players - Flores, Herrera, TdA, Lagares, even Duda. All of them are cheap and way overproducing their expectations/contracts on the aggregate. I do believe it's fair game to criticize the veterans and overall assembly of the roster because the financial resources they are spending are not adding very much. Cuddyer, Granderson, & Murphy make up 1/3 of the proposed opening day lineup and almost 40% of the payroll.
I genuinely believe the core frustration is that this franchise keeps trotting out mostly the same assembly of core every day players hoping for different results. Everyone just has their own unique way of projecting that frustration. Arguing the circumstances of why they've done what they done or haven't done more or the alternatives is futile because we don't truly know whatever other options they've had, but at some point results matter and offensively/defensively they are not good.
That's funny!
I sure am enjoying the Marlins meltdown though...
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they couldn't even beat a hockey team
That's funny!
I sure am enjoying the Marlins meltdown though...
I didn't watch the game last night .. Did Kessel get a hat trick?