O-line, are we any better ? ....

but 4-5 games in, probably. And if Beatty recovers, definitely.

They're gonna have to pick another OL early in the draft next year (round 1 or 2) to finish the off the set of starters. Beatty will not cut next off-season in all likelihood. IF you follow the pattern of young OL that the Giants have picked starting with Pugh in 2013, they all have an element of nastiness about them. Hence why Flowers was the pick ahead of the kid out of Stanford that the 'Aints took at 13. The health and age/uncertainty of Schwartz is another factor why the Giants will probably have to go high again on OL next year.

In all likelihood, Will Beatty will be cut next off-season.

Will not be starting. Yes, he's that bad.

Worst case -- there is real cause for concern.

LT Flowers. A rookie at LT -- how many rookies, even blue chip picks, can be good at LT right away? Not many.

LG Pugh. Should be good, but this move leaves a hole at RT

C Richburg. We think he will be good there.

RG Schwartz. Will he be healthy? If so, how good is he?

RT Newhouse/Mosley/Other. Yikes.
Overall, with all these moves, will the line gel anytime soon?

Best case -- it all comes together. Sometimes it just does.

LT Flowers. Big and talented, he quickly grows into the role.

LG Pugh. Excels at his best position.

C Richburg. Excels at his best position, what he was drafted for.

RG Schwartz. Plays well, looks like the guy Reese saw when he signed him.

RT Newhouse/Mosley/Other. Somebody steps up and surprises.

Am expecting something closer to best case -- Giants are overdue for some good things on the OL.

RT is a sore spot, hopefully they can hold the fort and then WB can hold it down. GS's health is a concern as serious leg injuries can become a trend for men his size.

No idea what to expect from the tackles and the whole OL has very shaky depth.

Richberg to center and Schwartz at G is a significant upgrade in talent. Beatty's injury sucks but the addition of Flowers has some upside. The RT issue is open. G to G it should be a very good group. We can hope the T keep pace.

Beatty really won't be much help this year because his injury limits his ability to train with weights.

PenAndDrink has it right but the reality is something in between the Best and Worst cases.

If (BIG IF)Schwartz is ready to go, is Schwartz and Newhouse better on the right side than Jerry and Schwartz? Is Schwartz and Mosely a better option than either one?

If Flowers isn't ready to play LT, can he be the RT with Schwartz at LT? Can the Giants find a starting LG on the current roster or via free agency or waivers?

I don't think this will be settled until the first game - maybe not until the second game.

in weeks 1-3. Hopefully we start to jell before the Bills game.

Beatty injury was more of a dead buzzard carcass in the soup. Now we are starting rookie at LT and a castoff (2x) at RT.

But, rookies do start at LT and do well. And, at some point, Newhouse could play.

But realistically, it will probably be ugly for the first third to half of the season.

The OL is the biggest question on this team, AGAIN....

Can a Rookie play adequately at LT?

Can Pugh transition to a LG?

Will Richburg play center at a level we expect from him?

Can Schwartz stay on the field?

Who will play RT, and at what level?

There is no depth if one of the pencilled in starters goes down....

And what about next year? If Beatty does not take a pay cut, he could be cut outright....if Schwartz does not stay on the field this year, he could also be cut or be an expensive backup if he won't take a pay cut....so we could be looking for two more starters next year, in addition to added depth........

It's hard to believe the front office has let this OL situation fester for so long, when the have the kind of QB that can not only get them to the playoffs, but go deep into the playoffs...they have failed Eli, these last 5 seasons...

they will be much better.

If they can't run then Eli will be running for his life. The right tackle situation is bad right now. We don't know what the team has at left tackle. Flowers may end up being an all-pro, but a rookie is a rookie.

The wild card is Vereen. He just may bail out Eli when the protection breaks down.

I think we are better. It's run blocking I am curious about. Can we actually run block and move people out of the way?

till they get the 5th guy figured out. We were going to be better before Beatty got hurt.

Quote:

It's hard to believe the front office has let this OL situation fester for so long, when the have the kind of QB that can not only get them to the playoffs, but go deep into the playoffs...they have failed Eli, these last 5 seasons...

Five seasons? They won the Super Bowl in 2011...four seasons ago, and they've been rebuilding their O-Line for the past three. Sure, they gambled on continuity in 2012 and came up short. Stuff happens.

The Cowboys have, arguably, the best O-Line in the league, but it took them four years to build it, using three 1st-round picks in the process, plus the good fortune to find their starting LG with a UDFA with a degenerative knee condition who spent his first year on their PS. We should be so lucky.

The OT positions are starting off worse but should improve during the course of the season.

The good news, with the exception of the rookie, all have experience with this offense. The line as a whole has all of training camp and pre-season to gel as a unit.

because Eli and the Giants won, in spite of an OL that was already failing....

LT

Flowers vs Beatty.
Flowers will be a better long term prospect, but he is raw technique wise. Edge Beatty.

LG

Pugh vs Richburg
I'd give it to Pugh here.

C
Richburg vs Walton
Edge Richburg, which isn't saying much.

RG
Swartz v Jerry
Edge Swartz, though plagued by injuries.

RT
Newhouse v Pugh
I'd give it to Pugh here.

It has the potential to be a better line. The gmen will need to count on the following things happening which history says more than likely won't:

Very little LT rookie growing pains

Two players insterted into new positions with very little growing pains.

Player recovering from serious injury

Other team's cast off.

I think Pugh and Richburg transitions will work out better than last year. I also think Swartz will be healthy and provide an upgrade. LT and RT is what worries me.

With Beatty down for an extended period, the answer cannot be that the line is better given the inexperience of some probable starters, the question mark at ORT, and the dearth of proven depth.

But the influx of new talent is very promising for the future so that means that it may not be any worse either. It might take some time to come together, and ORT might continue to be a problem for this season, but things are looking up longer term.

Personally I agree with the idea that they will need to invest additional significant resources in rebuilding the OL. In plain English that means drafting another OT fairly high next spring, and continuing to try to dig up another quality OL back up in the later rounds of the draft.

at starting LT will dictate a lot. Beatty was better than he gets credit for here. This could be a disaster early. Pugh and Richberg look good going forward and Schwartz should be adequate with the contract incentives. Hard to call right now.

The 2012-2014 lines were shuffled seemingly every other week due to injuries and a lack of talent.

At least now we know we have some long term solutions in place. If Mosley can step up and win a spot, we'll have 4 young starters on the line. That's a good thing. Hopefully they gel pretty quickly.

Dropoff on the OL has been precipitous. The fact that a player who should not be on an NFL roster is our current starter at RT is troubling. We had one at C last year and it was a nightmare. Our veteran signings have gone in the crapper since Gettleman left. He found underrated vets who were ascending, whereas now we bring in re-treads who are notable name wise and not usually for good reasons.

The Walton, Charles Brown and Newhouse signings are just head shakers for me. All very bad players, who is OKing this type of signing??? These are very very bad football players.

In comment 12337260 Gman11 said:

Quote:

they will be much better. If they can't run then Eli will be running for his life. The right tackle situation is bad right now. We don't know what the team has at left tackle. Flowers may end up being an all-pro, but a rookie is a rookie. The wild card is Vereen. He just may bail out Eli when the protection breaks down.

Shane Vereen mitigates any inability to run the ball. If they struggle with that, expect to see more Vereen on 1st and 2nd downs as they try short, efficient passes for a minimum of 4 or 5 yards.

In comment 12337491 Joey in VA said:

Quote:

Dropoff on the OL has been precipitous. The fact that a player who should not be on an NFL roster is our current starter at RT is troubling. We had one at C last year and it was a nightmare. Our veteran signings have gone in the crapper since Gettleman left. He found underrated vets who were ascending, whereas now we bring in re-treads who are notable name wise and not usually for good reasons. The Walton, Charles Brown and Newhouse signings are just head shakers for me. All very bad players, who is OKing this type of signing??? These are very very bad football players.

Dave Gettleman just signed Michael Oher to play Left Tackle...and that was after signing Jonathan Martin.

Walton and Brown already have new teams. For that matter, so does James Brewer. No doubt Anthony Collins and Gabe Carimi will, too, before the regular season starts.

The lack of OL talent isn't just a Giants problem, it's league-wide.

It takes time to build a dominant O-Line. Time, and a little bit of luck, too. The Giants have been on the right track to do just that for several years now.

Ask again later.

Flowers, Schwarz, Richburg, Pugh, Mosley
Only one I don't like is Schwartz. May the Schwarz be with you!!!

in 1st or 2nd round in 2016. Hopefully they will be drafting 21st or lower.

He deserves credit for for helping Accorsi stitch together an offensive line from castoffs in 2000, with Brown, Parker and Zeigler joining the homegrown Petitgout and the holdover Stone. Bringing back Jason Whittle wasn't a bad move, considering the circumstances. Gettleman also brought in two fifths of the great 2007-2008 line, seeing the potential in Shaun O'Hara and the proven talent in Kareem McKenzie. So, when a starter was needed, Gettleman did well (aside from Barry Stokes and, much later, David Baas).

Now consider the backups. I give Gettleman a pass for the 2003 meltdown, because there seems to have been a decision at the Accorsi level to roll the dice with young nobodies like Allen, Bober, Hatch, Hopkins, Lucier and Roehl.

But in later years, were vets like Grey Ruegamer and Bob Whitfield really any better than the current subs? Kevin Boothe was eventually a nice find, but his first three years in blue were marked more by jokes about his butt than any on-field contributions.

The Andrews brothers and Sean Locklear were on their last legs, and couldn't make it through a season; none ever played a down after their respective one-year stints here. Really, the main difference between Marshall Newhouse and Gettleman "finds" like Locklear and Stacy Andrews is that Newhouse is younger and healthier. All three lost multiple starting jobs on merit before signing here as backups. Shawn Andrews was a health gamble that amounted to nothing after a couple of promising games.

The veteran backup who came though in the biggest, most lasting way during the Gettleman years was a completely unique case who had nothing to do with Gettleman: Rich Seubert. The Giants only suffered one major injury on the offensive line during the 2005-2008 run: Luke Petitgout's broken leg. Ultimately, that injury opened a permanant spot for Seubert, largely because Gettleman's backup tackles - particularly Whitfield - were so bad that David Diehl became the best option for protecting Eli's blind side.

I'm not slamming Dave Gettleman. He did an excellent job, and richly deserved his GM gig. I just don't think he transcended the enormous challenge of building OL depth.

... I agree with those who say it's much stronger in the middle and - initially - weaker at tackle. Considering the offense McAdoo runs, that's probably an OK trade-off. Under Gilbride, it would have been disastrous.

By December, barring additional injuries, the line could be very good. As we learned in 2007 and 2011 - and less pleasantly in the intervening years - it's not how you start, it's how you finish (unless you start the way the Giants did in 2013).

Stokes was a good signing imo, but his back injury spelled his death knell..Baas had very good SB year before injuries effectively did him in as well..

He finished the year strong, and might have been a good signing if he had stayed healthy. He didn't, and he wasn't.

Stokes was an older, smaller version of Geoff Schwartz: a nondescript utility lineman who finally established himself as a starter just in time to sign with the Giants and break down physically.

Where backup linemen are concerned, most GMs and pro-personnel directors are blind squirrels. Every now and then, they all find a nut. Mostly, they grope in the darkness. The best way to make your backups look good is to keep your starters healthy. From 2005 to 2009, that approach worked pretty well for the Giants. Since then, not so much.

In comment 12337276 Klaatu said:

Quote:

Quote: It's hard to believe the front office has let this OL situation fester for so long, when the have the kind of QB that can not only get them to the playoffs, but go deep into the playoffs...they have failed Eli, these last 5 seasons... Five seasons? They won the Super Bowl in 2011...four seasons ago, and they've been rebuilding their O-Line for the past three. Sure, they gambled on continuity in 2012 and came up short. Stuff happens. The Cowboys have, arguably, the best O-Line in the league, but it took them four years to build it, using three 1st-round picks in the process, plus the good fortune to find their starting LG with a UDFA with a degenerative knee condition who spent his first year on their PS. We should be so lucky.

maybe this is our year to get lucky....we have all read that mosely has impressed with his smarts so far....maybe just maybe when the thinking part is solid...it will help with the physical part of the game. personally that is what im rooting for...mosely to be that good in camp to where they have to start him.

Now it looks like we're back to square one. I know a lot of you will forever remember Will Beatty from 2013 giving up all those sacks and wait for him to get cut. Same fans who wanted Beatty starting over Diehl when he was drafted. The offensive line has gotten younger but the depth remains a problem and will remain one long term.

In comment 12337491 Joey in VA said:

Quote:

Dropoff on the OL has been precipitous. The fact that a player who should not be on an NFL roster is our current starter at RT is troubling. We had one at C last year and it was a nightmare. Our veteran signings have gone in the crapper since Gettleman left. He found underrated vets who were ascending, whereas now we bring in re-treads who are notable name wise and not usually for good reasons. The Walton, Charles Brown and Newhouse signings are just head shakers for me. All very bad players, who is OKing this type of signing??? These are very very bad football players.

Agreed. Newhouse plays RT too---the position on the OL in which Eli has historically felt the most pressure. Let's see how this get the rid of the ball quickly offense works in the face of an OT as bad as Newhouse. I don't think it'll do well if he can't at least approach average play at ROT.

It's a tackle position and not in Eli's blind side. We have ways to combat struggles if we need to help him out. I am fine with that OL combo if that ends up being it.

You're in the minority on this O-line. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

In comment 12346172 Torrag said:

Quote:

You're in the minority on this O-line. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

I know, lol. So be it, it's not like Iam being a contrarian because I am bored. I am doing it based on what Ihave seen from our OC to adapt to the personnel last year and trying to salvage ELi and his production. I came away very impressed by what he did. I been waiting for a system like this since Eli was drafted. I took a lot of notes last season on the offense, and from what I have seen, I am more worried about run blocking than pass pro. In year 2 with more weapons, especially an RB who can catch the ball, I expect things will be better. That's why I am calm regarding pass pro than perhaps others.

In comment 12346065 AnishPatel said:

Quote:

It's a tackle position and not in Eli's blind side. We have ways to combat struggles if we need to help him out. I am fine with that OL combo if that ends up being it.

Actually, I am surprised Newhouse isn't at LT and Flowers at RT. rookie at LT scares me!

In comment 12346460 SGMen said:

Quote:

In comment 12346065 AnishPatel said: Quote: It's a tackle position and not in Eli's blind side. We have ways to combat struggles if we need to help him out. I am fine with that OL combo if that ends up being it. Actually, I am surprised Newhouse isn't at LT and Flowers at RT. rookie at LT scares me!

And Newhouse at LT doesn't? I'd much rather have the rookie there, and apparently the Giants do, too, and they've been working overtime to get him up to speed.

will tell us a lot

the giants want to get their starting O-Line set by the start of camp

i still think newhouse is on the bench with

Flowers - Pugh - Richburg - Jerry - Schwartz

being the best 5. schwartz working back slowly didnt allow them to do this in the offseason. we'll see

with our O-line this season.

Have to figure it will be the typical preseason shit-show of mistakes, growing pains and injuries that do not allow for consistency and continuity.

Getting the ball out quickly isn't a strategy, its a necessity.

tackle spots. Newhouse goes w/o saying a word. Moving Pugh to LG to help out Flowers is probably a good idea for the left side but leaves that RT position in trouble.

As mentioned above, it's rare that a rookie lineman can play LOT right out of the gate. It will be fantastic if Flowers can do that. Flowers is a monster. I'm really not worried about run blocking from the left side any more. I just don't want to see the rookie abused by crafty DE's and WILLs and have Eli take a pounding.

I think we will get a decent idea if Flowers is up to the very tough job after a few practice games.

One poster claimed some rookie LOTs come right in and do well. Can you name 1 or 2 recent ones so I feel a little better about this?

In comment 12337260 Gman11 said:

Quote:

they will be much better. If they can't run then Eli will be running for his life. The right tackle situation is bad right now. We don't know what the team has at left tackle. Flowers may end up being an all-pro, but a rookie is a rookie. The wild card is Vereen. He just may bail out Eli when the protection breaks down.

We have the OL to run behind but can our OTs pass protect? I am not sure we won't have trouble until Beatty is back. Honestly, Flowers is going to have TE help all year and that limits the offense a shade I'd think. No way Flowers is ready to pass protect though I do believe he'll run block just fine.

They didn't move Pugh to LG to help out Flowers. The decision to move Pugh to LG was made long before the draft, and long before Beatty got injured, because the Giants felt that while Pugh was a serviceable RT, he has the potential to be an outstanding LG.

As for rookie LTs who do well right out of the gate, the first one that comes to mind is Walter Jones. We should be so lucky.

In comment 12346460 SGMen said:

Quote:

In comment 12346065 AnishPatel said: Quote: It's a tackle position and not in Eli's blind side. We have ways to combat struggles if we need to help him out. I am fine with that OL combo if that ends up being it. Actually, I am surprised Newhouse isn't at LT and Flowers at RT. rookie at LT scares me!

Well I'd rather have Flowers develop and see what he can do at LT. Plus, if Jake Long can get better, Istill think we keep in contact and sign him if he checks out. I like that the left side of the line is young and can develop together.

In comment 12346610 Klaatu said:

Quote:

As for rookie LTs who do well right out of the gate, the first one that comes to mind is Walter Jones. We should be so lucky.

I didn't mean the guy had to be amazing. Just a rookie LOT that did pretty well. I'd have thought some of these Oline guys drafted top 5 would have or should have been OK there right away. I'd like to know Flower's odd of being "decent" his first year are more than a longshot.

I thought Pugh was off at ROT last year compared to his rookie season because he was playing through an injury. I'm a little surprised Pugh would desire to play guard being the money position is usually the LOT spot and he did play that well in college.

I trust the Giants won't leave LT to a person who is not good enough to keep Eli upright. I hope Flowers can do it.

Even Walter Jones wasn't a Top 5 pick. He went #6 overall.

While I'm well aware that top 5 is no guarantee for stardom, these few players are generally considered ready to start, highly valued players.

The Oline guys I've seen go top 5 over the last 10 years or so are supposed to "sure bet" (yeah, sure) polished players with only a few minor adjustments to be NFL ready. They are almost as desirable as so-called franchise QBs.

The Giants drafted Flowers at #9 and I found him to be ranked less than that on many popular pre-draft sites, scouting reports, etc. From reading those reports, it was mostly agreed that Flowers was a big, mean, powerful guy who would need time to improve his technique to make it in the NFL. If he was perceived to be NFL ready, he would have rated higher and likely top 5 if he was thought to be a LOT.

I'm just worried based on the NFL's past rookies and how long they take to adjust, that Flowers would play a year at guard or ROT, to hone his skills. Now that is is tentatively penciled in for the most position on our starting Oline, I think my concern is more than justified.

I'd feel better about this situation if he was generally considered to be more prepared and was ranked higher in pre-draft analysis. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the Giants got him where they did and gave up nothing. I'd just feel a lot better if he was a top 5 guy and the Giants nabbed him by some sort of trade for our future LOT.

When I write "top 5" I don't mean it literally. "Top few" is fine for what I'm posting about.

What do you think the draft pundits said about them? Most likely the praise was universal. I won't lose any sleep worrying about what Drew Boylhart or Rob Rang think about any of our draft picks.

In comment 12347092 Klaatu said:

Quote:

What do you think the draft pundits said about them? Most likely the praise was universal. I won't lose any sleep worrying about what Drew Boylhart or Rob Rang think about any of our draft picks.

I know. I remember the sure bet LOT, Robert Gallery. Believe me, I'll be rooting hard for Flowers and hope the Giants can jump start his long NFL career. If Flowers is decent this year, I'll have to toss out all the "top oline" predictions I read.

Am I allowed to snicker at the Skins for drafting a sure NFL guard with the #5 pick yet? Should I hold off? I read a lot of reviews saying Scherff would only be a guard.