After four years of trying to fix things ? - Depth Chart ....
2012 - Beatty, Boothe, Baas, Snee, Diehl
2013 - Beatty, Boothe, Baas, Snee, Pugh
2014 - Beatty, (Richburg), Walton, Jerry, Pugh
2015 - Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, Schwartz, Newhouse
I think, over-all, we are better. The "fly in the soup" is Beatty's injury, it forces Newhouse as a starter, which scares me.
LT Flowers. A rookie at LT -- how many rookies, even blue chip picks, can be good at LT right away? Not many.
LG Pugh. Should be good, but this move leaves a hole at RT
C Richburg. We think he will be good there.
RG Schwartz. Will he be healthy? If so, how good is he?
RT Newhouse/Mosley/Other. Yikes.
Overall, with all these moves, will the line gel anytime soon?
Best case -- it all comes together. Sometimes it just does.
LT Flowers. Big and talented, he quickly grows into the role.
LG Pugh. Excels at his best position.
C Richburg. Excels at his best position, what he was drafted for.
RG Schwartz. Plays well, looks like the guy Reese saw when he signed him.
RT Newhouse/Mosley/Other. Somebody steps up and surprises.
Am expecting something closer to best case -- Giants are overdue for some good things on the OL.
PenAndDrink has it right but the reality is something in between the Best and Worst cases.
If (BIG IF)Schwartz is ready to go, is Schwartz and Newhouse better on the right side than Jerry and Schwartz? Is Schwartz and Mosely a better option than either one?
If Flowers isn't ready to play LT, can he be the RT with Schwartz at LT? Can the Giants find a starting LG on the current roster or via free agency or waivers?
I don't think this will be settled until the first game - maybe not until the second game.
But, rookies do start at LT and do well. And, at some point, Newhouse could play.
Can a Rookie play adequately at LT?
Can Pugh transition to a LG?
Will Richburg play center at a level we expect from him?
Can Schwartz stay on the field?
Who will play RT, and at what level?
There is no depth if one of the pencilled in starters goes down....
And what about next year? If Beatty does not take a pay cut, he could be cut outright....if Schwartz does not stay on the field this year, he could also be cut or be an expensive backup if he won't take a pay cut....so we could be looking for two more starters next year, in addition to added depth........
It's hard to believe the front office has let this OL situation fester for so long, when the have the kind of QB that can not only get them to the playoffs, but go deep into the playoffs...they have failed Eli, these last 5 seasons...
Schwartz had his base salary cut from $3.675 million to $1.675 million. He'll get a chance to earn $1.5 million back in per game roster bonuses, with another $500K available through a 50-percent playing time incentive.
If they can't run then Eli will be running for his life. The right tackle situation is bad right now. We don't know what the team has at left tackle. Flowers may end up being an all-pro, but a rookie is a rookie.
The wild card is Vereen. He just may bail out Eli when the protection breaks down.
Five seasons? They won the Super Bowl in 2011...four seasons ago, and they've been rebuilding their O-Line for the past three. Sure, they gambled on continuity in 2012 and came up short. Stuff happens.
The Cowboys have, arguably, the best O-Line in the league, but it took them four years to build it, using three 1st-round picks in the process, plus the good fortune to find their starting LG with a UDFA with a degenerative knee condition who spent his first year on their PS. We should be so lucky.
The good news, with the exception of the rookie, all have experience with this offense. The line as a whole has all of training camp and pre-season to gel as a unit.
Flowers vs Beatty.
Flowers will be a better long term prospect, but he is raw technique wise. Edge Beatty.
LG
Pugh vs Richburg
I'd give it to Pugh here.
C
Richburg vs Walton
Edge Richburg, which isn't saying much.
RG
Swartz v Jerry
Edge Swartz, though plagued by injuries.
RT
Newhouse v Pugh
I'd give it to Pugh here.
It has the potential to be a better line. The gmen will need to count on the following things happening which history says more than likely won't:
Very little LT rookie growing pains
Two players insterted into new positions with very little growing pains.
Player recovering from serious injury
Other team's cast off.
I think Pugh and Richburg transitions will work out better than last year. I also think Swartz will be healthy and provide an upgrade. LT and RT is what worries me.
But the influx of new talent is very promising for the future so that means that it may not be any worse either. It might take some time to come together, and ORT might continue to be a problem for this season, but things are looking up longer term.
Personally I agree with the idea that they will need to invest additional significant resources in rebuilding the OL. In plain English that means drafting another OT fairly high next spring, and continuing to try to dig up another quality OL back up in the later rounds of the draft.
At least now we know we have some long term solutions in place. If Mosley can step up and win a spot, we'll have 4 young starters on the line. That's a good thing. Hopefully they gel pretty quickly.
The Walton, Charles Brown and Newhouse signings are just head shakers for me. All very bad players, who is OKing this type of signing??? These are very very bad football players.
If they can't run then Eli will be running for his life. The right tackle situation is bad right now. We don't know what the team has at left tackle. Flowers may end up being an all-pro, but a rookie is a rookie.
The wild card is Vereen. He just may bail out Eli when the protection breaks down.
Shane Vereen mitigates any inability to run the ball. If they struggle with that, expect to see more Vereen on 1st and 2nd downs as they try short, efficient passes for a minimum of 4 or 5 yards.
The Walton, Charles Brown and Newhouse signings are just head shakers for me. All very bad players, who is OKing this type of signing??? These are very very bad football players.
Dave Gettleman just signed Michael Oher to play Left Tackle...and that was after signing Jonathan Martin.
Walton and Brown already have new teams. For that matter, so does James Brewer. No doubt Anthony Collins and Gabe Carimi will, too, before the regular season starts.
The lack of OL talent isn't just a Giants problem, it's league-wide.
It takes time to build a dominant O-Line. Time, and a little bit of luck, too. The Giants have been on the right track to do just that for several years now.
Only one I don't like is Schwartz. May the Schwarz be with you!!!
Now consider the backups. I give Gettleman a pass for the 2003 meltdown, because there seems to have been a decision at the Accorsi level to roll the dice with young nobodies like Allen, Bober, Hatch, Hopkins, Lucier and Roehl.
But in later years, were vets like Grey Ruegamer and Bob Whitfield really any better than the current subs? Kevin Boothe was eventually a nice find, but his first three years in blue were marked more by jokes about his butt than any on-field contributions.
The Andrews brothers and Sean Locklear were on their last legs, and couldn't make it through a season; none ever played a down after their respective one-year stints here. Really, the main difference between Marshall Newhouse and Gettleman "finds" like Locklear and Stacy Andrews is that Newhouse is younger and healthier. All three lost multiple starting jobs on merit before signing here as backups. Shawn Andrews was a health gamble that amounted to nothing after a couple of promising games.
The veteran backup who came though in the biggest, most lasting way during the Gettleman years was a completely unique case who had nothing to do with Gettleman: Rich Seubert. The Giants only suffered one major injury on the offensive line during the 2005-2008 run: Luke Petitgout's broken leg. Ultimately, that injury opened a permanant spot for Seubert, largely because Gettleman's backup tackles - particularly Whitfield - were so bad that David Diehl became the best option for protecting Eli's blind side.
I'm not slamming Dave Gettleman. He did an excellent job, and richly deserved his GM gig. I just don't think he transcended the enormous challenge of building OL depth.
By December, barring additional injuries, the line could be very good. As we learned in 2007 and 2011 - and less pleasantly in the intervening years - it's not how you start, it's how you finish (unless you start the way the Giants did in 2013).
Stokes was an older, smaller version of Geoff Schwartz: a nondescript utility lineman who finally established himself as a starter just in time to sign with the Giants and break down physically.
Where backup linemen are concerned, most GMs and pro-personnel directors are blind squirrels. Every now and then, they all find a nut. Mostly, they grope in the darkness. The best way to make your backups look good is to keep your starters healthy. From 2005 to 2009, that approach worked pretty well for the Giants. Since then, not so much.
Quote:
It's hard to believe the front office has let this OL situation fester for so long, when the have the kind of QB that can not only get them to the playoffs, but go deep into the playoffs...they have failed Eli, these last 5 seasons...
Five seasons? They won the Super Bowl in 2011...four seasons ago, and they've been rebuilding their O-Line for the past three. Sure, they gambled on continuity in 2012 and came up short. Stuff happens.
The Cowboys have, arguably, the best O-Line in the league, but it took them four years to build it, using three 1st-round picks in the process, plus the good fortune to find their starting LG with a UDFA with a degenerative knee condition who spent his first year on their PS. We should be so lucky.
maybe this is our year to get lucky....we have all read that mosely has impressed with his smarts so far....maybe just maybe when the thinking part is solid...it will help with the physical part of the game. personally that is what im rooting for...mosely to be that good in camp to where they have to start him.
The Walton, Charles Brown and Newhouse signings are just head shakers for me. All very bad players, who is OKing this type of signing??? These are very very bad football players.
Agreed. Newhouse plays RT too---the position on the OL in which Eli has historically felt the most pressure. Let's see how this get the rid of the ball quickly offense works in the face of an OT as bad as Newhouse. I don't think it'll do well if he can't at least approach average play at ROT.
I know, lol. So be it, it's not like Iam being a contrarian because I am bored. I am doing it based on what Ihave seen from our OC to adapt to the personnel last year and trying to salvage ELi and his production. I came away very impressed by what he did. I been waiting for a system like this since Eli was drafted. I took a lot of notes last season on the offense, and from what I have seen, I am more worried about run blocking than pass pro. In year 2 with more weapons, especially an RB who can catch the ball, I expect things will be better. That's why I am calm regarding pass pro than perhaps others.
Quote:
It's a tackle position and not in Eli's blind side. We have ways to combat struggles if we need to help him out. I am fine with that OL combo if that ends up being it.
Actually, I am surprised Newhouse isn't at LT and Flowers at RT. rookie at LT scares me!
And Newhouse at LT doesn't? I'd much rather have the rookie there, and apparently the Giants do, too, and they've been working overtime to get him up to speed.
the giants want to get their starting O-Line set by the start of camp
i still think newhouse is on the bench with
Flowers - Pugh - Richburg - Jerry - Schwartz
being the best 5. schwartz working back slowly didnt allow them to do this in the offseason. we'll see
Have to figure it will be the typical preseason shit-show of mistakes, growing pains and injuries that do not allow for consistency and continuity.
Getting the ball out quickly isn't a strategy, its a necessity.
As mentioned above, it's rare that a rookie lineman can play LOT right out of the gate. It will be fantastic if Flowers can do that. Flowers is a monster. I'm really not worried about run blocking from the left side any more. I just don't want to see the rookie abused by crafty DE's and WILLs and have Eli take a pounding.
I think we will get a decent idea if Flowers is up to the very tough job after a few practice games.
One poster claimed some rookie LOTs come right in and do well. Can you name 1 or 2 recent ones so I feel a little better about this?
If they can't run then Eli will be running for his life. The right tackle situation is bad right now. We don't know what the team has at left tackle. Flowers may end up being an all-pro, but a rookie is a rookie.
The wild card is Vereen. He just may bail out Eli when the protection breaks down.
As for rookie LTs who do well right out of the gate, the first one that comes to mind is Walter Jones. We should be so lucky.
Quote:
It's a tackle position and not in Eli's blind side. We have ways to combat struggles if we need to help him out. I am fine with that OL combo if that ends up being it.
Actually, I am surprised Newhouse isn't at LT and Flowers at RT. rookie at LT scares me!
Well I'd rather have Flowers develop and see what he can do at LT. Plus, if Jake Long can get better, Istill think we keep in contact and sign him if he checks out. I like that the left side of the line is young and can develop together.
As for rookie LTs who do well right out of the gate, the first one that comes to mind is Walter Jones. We should be so lucky.
I didn't mean the guy had to be amazing. Just a rookie LOT that did pretty well. I'd have thought some of these Oline guys drafted top 5 would have or should have been OK there right away. I'd like to know Flower's odd of being "decent" his first year are more than a longshot.
I thought Pugh was off at ROT last year compared to his rookie season because he was playing through an injury. I'm a little surprised Pugh would desire to play guard being the money position is usually the LOT spot and he did play that well in college.
I trust the Giants won't leave LT to a person who is not good enough to keep Eli upright. I hope Flowers can do it.
The Oline guys I've seen go top 5 over the last 10 years or so are supposed to "sure bet" (yeah, sure) polished players with only a few minor adjustments to be NFL ready. They are almost as desirable as so-called franchise QBs.
The Giants drafted Flowers at #9 and I found him to be ranked less than that on many popular pre-draft sites, scouting reports, etc. From reading those reports, it was mostly agreed that Flowers was a big, mean, powerful guy who would need time to improve his technique to make it in the NFL. If he was perceived to be NFL ready, he would have rated higher and likely top 5 if he was thought to be a LOT.
I'm just worried based on the NFL's past rookies and how long they take to adjust, that Flowers would play a year at guard or ROT, to hone his skills. Now that is is tentatively penciled in for the most position on our starting Oline, I think my concern is more than justified.
I'd feel better about this situation if he was generally considered to be more prepared and was ranked higher in pre-draft analysis. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the Giants got him where they did and gave up nothing. I'd just feel a lot better if he was a top 5 guy and the Giants nabbed him by some sort of trade for our future LOT.
When I write "top 5" I don't mean it literally. "Top few" is fine for what I'm posting about.
I know. I remember the sure bet LOT, Robert Gallery. Believe me, I'll be rooting hard for Flowers and hope the Giants can jump start his long NFL career. If Flowers is decent this year, I'll have to toss out all the "top oline" predictions I read.
Am I allowed to snicker at the Skins for drafting a sure NFL guard with the #5 pick yet? Should I hold off? I read a lot of reviews saying Scherff would only be a guard.