How good is JPP ?

damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.....

We have seen him play at his best.....watch today on NFL Network at 1:00PM....we saw the play he made on RGIII last year at the goal line....there is no doubt he is the best DLman on this team.....

But is he worth the 15M he will get?

There are the questions of his health....

But, I think the most important thing about him, is his consistency and his ability to be a game changer in big games? Some look at stats and say, thus far he's had a great career compared to Strahan's start....statistically yes....but did we ever see Strahan dive into the line and allow rb's and qb's to run around his end? Did we see the double teams on JPP that we saw on Strahan?

You pay a guy 15M not only for his play but his leadership....where was that leadership and play during the 7 game losing streak?

So is he worth 15M? Sure if you can guarantee he stays healthy and brings it every game.....but no player can do that.....not even Watt....

So the Giants are faced with the dilemma of signing him for one year, or a long term deal.....the dilemma is, could that money be put to better use?

A one year deal makes no sense to me......the Giants are poised for another 8-8, +/-1 season.....so a 15M one year rental is a big question, for a team that may , or may not make the playoffs.....If the Giants make the playoffs, it will be worth it if he has a great year.....but if they don't, could that money have been used elsewhere, or even rolled over to next season?

This team is in a rebuilding process.....it has big decisions to make next season with Eli, Prince, and JPP, if not signed to a deal this season......if the young guys like Bromley, Kennard, Taylor, Richburg, Williams, Pugh, Moore, Flowers, Collins, and OO do not have good seasons, spending 15M on JPP is like trying to fix the Titanic with gum....

There is no doubt JPP is a great DE, when he is on....unfortunately, many times that button seems to be switched off, either due to lack of effort or recurring injuries.....

No one can predict how any player will play.....that's why GM's get the big bucks, and the headaches that come with it....

So the more important question is, not, how good is JPP, but is he worth 15M? Only time will tell....

he gained weight, maybe to get stronger or to be more durable. Then the injuries hit.

Now, I don't think he's got the quickness and freakish athleticism that he had in 2011. He can still be a really good DE, but not the monster that he was in 2011.

JPP for that Cam Jordan contract.

while the guaranteed portion is a bit high, judging from what I'd heard back in March. They were apparently somewhere in the $12M per and $20M guaranteed range ... Jordan's guaranteed money stymies the NYG effort.

...on other plays he gets neutralized by TEs one-on-one. So very frustrating.

...for example, Tennessee may be ranked as mediocre, but in the game against the Giants because of Tennessee injuries JPP played against a 3rd string OT signed only the previous Tuesday.

Through the first 13 games of the season he had only 7 sacks, 3.5 of which were against Jax's Luke Joeckel, who has been a big disappointment, and the Tennessee 3rd stringer.

I really don't see how his 2014 season can be viewed as anything but frustrating.

In comment 12337126 mvftw said:

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Let him make a game winning play...like getting to Romo... Great rookie year...then not so much...

Actually, he had a great sophomore in 2011...Superbowl year

In comment 12337135 Ira said:

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but when he's banged up, he's not special.

I think you could say that about many players. A big part of the NFL is dealing with injuries, but even more important is having a conditioning program that helps you avoid them in the first place. Given our horrible injury stats, I often wonder about our conditioning programs.

Veteran from the Patriots (2013 and others prior) played LT for the Titans against the Giants.

He's not good, but he played LT for the Titans the week before against the Texans and allowed two sacks to JJ Watt. But somehow Watt's sacks are against Oralndo Pace and JPPs are all against Ian Allen.

If you dissect anyone's stats my guess is the pattern would be not much different.

What is interesting is if you look at JPP's stats altogether, the first half of the season when his sack numbers were down, his tackle numbers were high. He had 5 games with 4 or more tackles.

2nd half of the season he had none, and his sacks were up.

So I don't think it's just the competition as some lazy (no offense intended) people like to claim, I think it was an adjustment in either his game personally (which might be legitimately a warning sign) or the scheme/Giants team in general.

I don't know enough about either to pretend I have that answer, and I doubt anyone else on here does either.

He hasn't shown up yet?

The fact that the FO seems to be OK with letting this season play out, is indicative that they have questions too.

But in fairness to JPP he hasn't been getting much help. Our best lines had solid starters or better at all 4 positions. Further, the team had quality depth allowing for good rotations. Players could stay fresh without feeling the need to try & pace themselves. It use to be our Dline wore thre opposing team down, enabling the team to make the big stops. Last few years, the players have looked gassed.

he's now got quite a bit of help, and Spags' scheme is built from the DL, generally he does get much more production from (and expects more of) his DL than PF typically did. JPP is about as well setup as can be expected.

and tends not to back up what he says.

The last couple of years he has been an above average DE. He needs to do better than that in 2015 to earn his $15 million pay check.

He has that kind of rare physical ability. Unfortunately it's unclear if you can count on either of those factors engaging so he realizes his potential.

he has, I love Hankins, but who else can you rely on from the DL?

I feel like the Giants have one DE and one DT and a bunch of questions. Selvie, Ayers, Moore, Jenkins, Wynn, Bromley, etc.

it's not close to Tuck, Osi, LinVo, Canty, Bernard, etc.

I'm hopeful the line is better than it has been, but not sure he has any more help than he had last year.

but he hasn't gotten to know Spags and the new D because he didn't show up.

These 21st century pros are hard to figure out.

1st team All-Pro LT for the division rival Dallas Cowboys.

JPP definitely racked up the sack numbers at the end of the year, but sacks always come in bunches. And the insinuation that JPP is only impactful against mediocre OTs is idiotic. If you actually paid attention to the Cowboys-Giants games, you'd see JPP thoroughly outplaying arguably the best LT in the sport.

He's a very good player.

only mediocre opponents, but rather it's worth noting if he's compiling impact stats versus lesser opponents. One does not eliminate the other, but in an overview it has meaning when evaluations on a $50M+ contract hangs in the balance.

if he can make an impact versus a Tyron Smith, then he should be more impactful more consistently.

definitely been posters who call out JPP for only getting sacks on backups and shitty OTs. I'm always in shock at how they forget what he did to Tyron Smith.

Imo the key to a better line is Bromley. Can he win the starting 3 tech and be a quality starter. If he does, 3 spots are answered and Hankins can stay at 1 where he excelled. I would hope between Selvie, Ayers, Wynn, or to a lesser extent Odighi (raw to much to expect) at least one can be adequate and can be counted on to set the edge.

I do agree that the talent is headed in the right direction. At the very least, the overall depth has improved which should allow for rotations with out the DC having a heart attack. This could be a huge help in and of itself.

As to JPP, we don't know what Fewell was asking him to do. Or was JPP at times forcing plays just to make something happen? It seems he's going all out to be in shape. If Bromley can step up, JPP could be the beneficiary of an interior rush threat/collapsing pocket. Let's hope JPP has an outstanding year!

Those would appear to have short memories or a lack of understanding as to what is actually going on.

Everyone focuses on the competition the Giants faced in the 2nd half and assumes that's the primary reason for JPP's flourish in sacks. But I think an overlooked part of the equation is the LDE. JPP's higher sack numbers also came when Moore started getting more snaps (and Kiwi none). It helps when the QB can't just step up into a comfy pocket to avoid JPP.

I don't really disagree with pj, the stats he presented do appear to not match my recollections. My consistent point with JPP is he needs to perform more consistently. The player he was in 2014, for my money, isn't worth full market dollars, and NYG appears to agree at this point. If you break down every play he registered over the course of the full season, it would make more sense because you would see the mental mistakes, the physical mistakes, the blown assignment, the plays he didn't appear to play full speed, etc.

I'd wager most NYG fans would be content if he signed for a deal similar to Jordan's. I think JPP's the superior player, at his best, but the motor's the big question with him (and his back).

In comment 12337313 pjcas18 said:

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Veteran from the Patriots (2013 and others prior) played LT for the Titans against the Giants. He's not good, but he played LT for the Titans the week before against the Texans and allowed two sacks to JJ Watt. But somehow Watt's sacks are against Oralndo Pace and JPPs are all against Ian Allen. If you dissect anyone's stats my guess is the pattern would be not much different. What is interesting is if you look at JPP's stats altogether, the first half of the season when his sack numbers were down, his tackle numbers were high. He had 5 games with 4 or more tackles. 2nd half of the season he had none, and his sacks were up. So I don't think it's just the competition as some lazy (no offense intended) people like to claim, I think it was an adjustment in either his game personally (which might be legitimately a warning sign) or the scheme/Giants team in general. I don't know enough about either to pretend I have that answer, and I doubt anyone else on here does either.

Yeah, any reasonable football fan is aware ( or should be, imo) that a breakdown of most player sack totals would show a majority of these sacks to be garnered against average or below average OLs..

What I see (at least I think I see) is a guy like Watt has a virtual non-stop motor and JPP does not..I realize the great players pace themselves from time to time as they should, imv, but I see a big disparity between Watt's and JPP's work ethic..Some of that may be due to injury issues of course..

end of story. You can analysis this and that...he's a top flight DE. Period.


I still question the validity of those "player" leaks that question JPP's attitude. You could probably get an anonymous quote like that on any player going. Love those anonymous quotes. Believe that if you want...I don't. I go by what my eyes tell me. I see a very very good DE who has really only had one off year in the NFL. ONe out of five.

Whether he's worth every penny of a long term deal? Could he disappoint? Of course he could...he could suffer an injury to another part of his body, one that no player can rebound from..and we're fucked. But JPP has earned the place in a discussion for big long term money. If you're gonna find tooth comb JPP's game and come away saying the guy isn't a top 5 DE in the NFL, you're just fooling yourself.

and needs to be more consistent, but again my focus is only half on JPP the 26 year old player, the other half is on who do you replace him with?

the only real free agent signed to a multi-year this past off-season at a 4-3 DE was Michael Johnson and he was brutal last year for TB. Off the top of my head.

he's 2 years older and a Significant drop off from JPP. You can't draft a guy and expect significant contribution from him year 1, and I don't know anyone on the roster and provide his same production, even inconsistently.

The Giants get worse not better without him in most scenarios I can see.

I'm not saying overpay, but be prepared with a plan B if he does walk after the year.

I doubt Chandler Jones hits FA, and I doubt reese is looking beyond this year and counting on any potential UFA hitting FA. Just seems like too much of a gamble with the potential to be re-signed or franchised.

this year's cap hit is almost half of the guarantees JPP would need to be signed.

should be fine tooth comb

about JPP's sacks coming in garbage time is one of the biggest bullshit talking points in BBI history. First off, as posted already, many of those so called garbage teams fielded pro bowl LTS. So how does that work exactly?

JPP gives the Giants an edge at DE every week he's on the field. Don't over analyze this. He's a plus player. A strong player that really has no discernible weaknesses. If JPP isn't a great 4-3 DE, who is?

Sugar coat anyway you want. If the Giants don't have JPP after this season they have a big hole to fill at DE. One they haven't had at DE in decades. Good great...whatever you want to call him. He's needed.

The defense has sucked every year he's been on it. It's not his fault, but when you're talking about this kind of money the player in question has to be the kids of player that makes an enormous difference. JPP has not been that.

We've had this crosstalk many times, the top 5 player you see hasn't really been seen consistently seen since 2011. We saw some flash hints of it in '13 and '14. I'd suggest he's potentially a top 5 DE if his head's screwed on correctly, he was certainly top 5 in 2011. But, that very gap between what you see and what I see is correlating to why his extension isn't completed, imv.

.

Well, that gap between good/plus and pay him or else is what continues to feed the discussion ... the latter tactic doesn't make sense to me, but I get it, we don't pay the bills so who cares. Unfortunately, it's a cap league.

is almost unfair. Idk what happened with the contract negotiations. Did Reese lowball because they have major concerns? Or was a fair contract offered but JPP wanted more than what NYG was confortable? Was it, if you want that - show me before I give you the money?

Don't disagree JPP's production has been inconsistent. Back, lack of rotation could all be factors. However, imo not having enough good players around you has to be a factor. To me football is the ultimate team sport. Off hand I can't think of HOFs, who played on consistently crappie teams.

and Watt.

I was only saying Watt's sacks probably come against a similar level of competition as JPP's.

Watt is a generational talent.

I like JPP, but he's not close to Watt. I'm not sure any other DE in the league is close to Watt.

but sure about our "Great Depth" at DE?

I don't see the depth. We have some young guys, a stiff in Selvie, and a guy coming off injury with Ayers.

I believe in Odi. However, if he doesn't become a big time contributor in year 1 we have a depth/talent problem at DE.

JPP is the one thing you should know about. He's one of the top 3-5 players at his position.

The only problem we haven't had on defense the past few years is JPP.

Osi...it isn't just Smith in Dallas. Since he came into the league JPP has dominated Williams in WAS.

In comment 12337734 pjcas18 said:

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and Watt. I was only saying Watt's sacks probably come against a similar level of competition as JPP's. Watt is a generational talent. I like JPP, but he's not close to Watt. I'm not sure any other DE in the league is close to Watt.

Didn't mean to imply that you did. Do agree with your assessment.

but I'll give you my opinion anyway. JPP is regarded highly by the Giants because they absolutely need him. He will not return to his 2011 form, but I think he can be what he was last season, whether he racked up sacks against weak O lines in non-crucial moments of games, or whether his play really reflected his numbers. Either way he will be an above average DE. How much above? Not sure, but not high enough that the Giants felt he needed to be a part of their long-term plans. They are hoping the DEs they have can develop and take his place, but as for 2015, they couldn't release him and go with such uncertainty at the position, hence the franchise tag. And I have said all along that they were not franchise tagging him to get a long-term deal done. They were just tagging him because they need his ass. His holding out will only hurt him> make him more likely to suffer a soft tissue injury in what will be a contract year, because the Giants aint gonna give him one. They, like you, and me, are concerned about his back, concerned about his lack of playmaking when it matters, and concerned that his best is already behind him. He is a good player, they couldn't afford to let him walk, but they also couldn't afford to sign him long term and give him a bunch of guaranteed jack. So we are where we (the Giants) are with JPP.

In comment 12337588 giants#1 said:

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Everyone focuses on the competition the Giants faced in the 2nd half and assumes that's the primary reason for JPP's flourish in sacks. But I think an overlooked part of the equation is the LDE. JPP's higher sack numbers also came when Moore started getting more snaps (and Kiwi none). It helps when the QB can't just step up into a comfy pocket to avoid JPP.

Best and most accurate post on this thread.

In the beginning of the season I thought JPP looked very good, bringing pressure regularly. I was frustrated that he wasn't getting sacks, but my observation was that the QB's were escaping the pocket and it wasn't JPP's fault, but the other DL (mainly Kiwi) who weren't collapsing the pocket.


There did seem to be a stretch of 3-4 games in the middle of the season when he seemed to be handled pretty well and wasn't quite as impactful. Then he went back to playing the same as in the beginning, lots of pressure from JPP, but with QB's having less opportunities to escape the pocket his production went up.

This is all based on my recollection - I watch almost all games two times and the second time I really pay attention to individual performances. I'd need to rewatch specific games to give better details.

but it may be time to ship him out of town. get something of value for him, hes not worth what hell be asking for . get something for him now before he just walks away.

with all of the things this team needs is a 15 million dollar defensive end one of them, I don't think so. We have some very serviceable DEs who can be good enough with out throwing the bank at one player who doesn't always show up on game day....

is going to replace JPP?

He might not be JJ Watt, but he is severely underestimated on here. People complained about the lack of pass rush with him and the run D, neither of those improves without him (until I see who he's replaced with, but I don't know anyone on the roster who can do it).

I can see this opinion if JPP was a 30+ year old Osi or Tuck, but he's in his prime.

Health is my only concern.

if you put Lawrence Taylor in to this defense last year the defense still sucks. Know how I know that? Because LT played on the 91-92 defense. He was a step slower but the D still blew chunks when it mattered.

One player doesn't a defense make. The entire DL save for JPP and Hank was downright awful last year. Kiwi didn't belong on an NFL roster. Rolle was Shawn Williams redux. The other safety was even worse. No LBs. Prince hurt. DRC dinged all year.

JPP is part of the solution. He isn't part of the problem.

and no one ever answers it. Why? Because there is no answer. How many DEs are better than JPP?

How many? Please rattle them off....you won't. You never do.

Respectfully, your position makes sense in the vacuum of no salary cap.

But, in this age of the cap, guaranteed money, rosters and lockerrooms being constructed with more emphasis on chemistry, citizenship, community, and being forced to overpay players constantly, I don't blame a team for pausing and considering the player's warts as well as their talents.

is huge, especially when your QB is $20M AAV and other core pieces are coming up for second pro contracts soon, and the DE in question has demonstrated warts that are creating the concerns.

are probably win at any cost fans, and I get that point of view, for certain.

In comment 12342436 JonC said:

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Respectfully, your position makes sense in the vacuum of no salary cap. But, in this age of the cap, guaranteed money, rosters and lockerrooms being constructed with more emphasis on chemistry, citizenship, community, and being forced to overpay players constantly, I don't blame a team for pausing and considering the player's warts as well as their talents.

That I agree with!

I most certainly don't blame the Giants for being patient right now and thinking this through. I just hope they have a chance to adequately replace JPP if they let him walk. And I think some of the fans on here are underrating just how good JPP is.

Tagging JPP is fine...shit I may even tag JPP next season if the team looks poised to have a big year and you don't want to jeopardize a possible run by losing your best DE. ..but that's another topic for another time.

two years in a row you would have paid him almost 35M over two years (guaranteed from the time he signs his FT).

How is that better business than a longer term deal that is front-loaded with "only" 30M guaranteed?

If he stays healthy and performs well you keep him year 3 and 4 or beyond. if not, you cut ties. Year 3 might be soon depending on how it's structured, but certainly there could be a way to let him go year 4 with minimal pain.

Playing on the tag even one year just doesn't seem advantageous to either party. JPP won't consider it "15M toward a contract" the same way Welker didn't in New England.

the player hates the tag (though my personal opinion is its much better for the team than for JPP) and the teams don't like it any more than the player. but sadly when sides can't reach a compromise it's the only option. I hope he's re-signed before that point of no return, if not I don't think it's the end of the world, but I'm eager to see how it plays out.

this:
(though my personal opinion is its much better for the team than for JPP)

should be

This:
(though my personal opinion is its much better for JPP than for team)