NFT: Knicks Chat: 3 trades the Knicks should consider?

Amid reports that the Knicks are open to moving down from No. 4 to pick up a first-rounder in 2016 (when their pick goes to Denver or Toronto), there are rival executives who view that as a dangerous game for Jackson to play. One such executive, who has been in contact with the Knicks, told CBSSports.com Monday there is "internal debate" within the Knicks' front office about whether to use the fourth pick or trade it.

"The one way to not screw it up is just to take the next best player," the executive said. "But you start moving back, trying to gain a pick, you don't have control. � Don't get cute. At end of the day, eventually there'll be a gap between certain players. Wouldn't you rather control that rather than letting who everybody else takes dictate it for you?"
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Chad Ford of ESPN has Porzingis going No. 3 to the Sixers, and Russell No. 4 to the Knicks.

Knicks President Phil Jackson recently scouted Porzingis in Las Vegas, and has said all along his priority is a defensive-oriented big man. Short of landing Towns or Okafor, Porzingis might best fit that bill, although Jackson and the Knicks risk being ripped by fans for another potential Frederic Weis disaster.

�I don�t like being labeled soft,� Porzingis told Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo Sports. �I�m very hungry. I love the game. I�ve got to prove to coaches and GMs that I�m not soft just because I�m from Europe. They need to see that I�m not just some skinny white guy, that I�m going to be there fighting. They�ll need to see that I�m a worker who�s going to play hard, and play tough.�

Ewing the Knicks have had 6 lotto picks... 0 all-star appearances

If Russell is available at No. 4 the Knicks, according to a source, would likely select Russell. If Russell goes to the Sixers, the Knicks may consider trading the pick for a team interested in Porzingis, who will go no later than five to the Orlando

Magic. Knicks president Phil Jackson could trade down to select one of two Kentucky big men, Trey Lyles or Willie Cauley-Stein.

Of course, the Knicks� interest in Porzingis could be sincere. They were impressed by his workout in Las Vegas two weeks ago and wanted another look at him on Monday.

Jackson has said in recent days that the Knicks need a big man. The 19-year-old Porzingis has played professionally in Spain. On ESPN�s Mike&Mike radio show, Jackson said the Knicks were �covered� at lead guard and small forward. That would suggest that Jackson may be less inclined to select Duke�s Justise Winslow, who will be available at No. 4.

This kid is not Fr�d�ric Weis.

interest in a "defensive oriented big man" made their interest in Okafor always puzzling. He's just about the exact opposite of that. Same with Greg Monroe.

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Maybe a sign and trade?

I'll vomit if the Knicks are dumb enough to trade the #4 pick to get out of expiring contracts. Total fucking cap mismanagement. You give an asset (future #1) to trade an expiring when you have a commitment from a UFA, not before. Knicks over-confidence in clearly cap room for UFAs who arent coming will just set us back further.

On the 3 #1s trade, that isnt remotely enough value. Heat and OKC should be playoff teams, and the Lakers will be much improved -- they're either adding Randle and Russell/Okafor or Boogie. I'd think about it if they added Saric.

In comment 12338384 DanMetroMan said:

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Ewing the Knicks have had 6 lotto picks... 0 all-star appearances

Because there is a big difference between top 3-4 picks and the 8-10 range where we got guys like Frye and Sweets.

It might be smart to move to next year (not sure if there will be great talent or not) but you can't expect Knick fans to keep suffering. It can be a 2 or 3 year process but we really need (and deserve) some progress this year. If we are going to do a complete rebuild like above then Melo needs to also go for picks as he will be past our prime before we are any good.

Were they created by a Philly fan? The Bargnani one is pointless since he expires after one more season anyway and the 1st one is trading a top 4 pick where you have a decent chance of getting a "star" for what's likely to be 3 mid-teens picks (at best). The Lakers would be the best chance for a top 2016 pick, but they are adding the #2 pick and Randle to Kobe + others so I wouldn't be shocked if they were at least battling for the playoffs. Heat should be a lock for the playoffs in the East and OKC is a top 4 team with Durant healthy.

and its impossible to take it seriously after it says how much we would save by trading Bargs.....which is nothing since he is a FA.

Knicks need to have a #1 this year since we didnt have one last year, no?

In any event, we're somewhat in the mess we're in because of all the unprotected #1s we've traded. When we finally get a pick where we could take someone with a little star power, we're going to trade it for a dime and a couple of nickles? Take Mudiay or Zinga and call it a day. Someone who could make a fucking allstar game one day.

Really bad

In comment 12338389 Greg from LI said:

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This kid is not Fr�d�ric Weis.

The Weis comparisons are just lazy. NBA teams' scouting efforts overseas are way, way better than they were 15 years ago, and the level of play overseas is also drastically higher. Most of the teams that are considering Porzingis have seen plenty of him.

And as players, they're not even close to the same. If we're going to pick Euro comparisons, Porzingis profiles as much closer to, say, a really tall Kirilenko, and even that is not an ideal comparison. He's a unique player.

If the Knicks got Willue Cauley Stein by swapping picks and either getting a Vet who can help or an extra draft pick
Jerian Grant. PG out of Notre Dane is a real sleeper and could be best PG in draft

they just cant officially trade it before. That rule was put in so that a team couldnt make a trade that included there next 4 first round picks, but if on draft night a team wants to trade their pick there is nothing stopping them.

I'm really warming to WCS. He will be an elite defensive player from day 1, and I think has more offensive potential than what he was able to show in college.

In comment 12338433 Jon in NYC said:

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I'm really warming to WCS. He will be an elite defensive player from day 1, and I think has more offensive potential than what he was able to show in college.

Couldn't agree more Jon

Frederic Weis.

Gallinari was gonna be Frederic Weis.

In comment 12338429 Earl the goat said:

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If the Knicks got Willue Cauley Stein by swapping picks and either getting a Vet who can help or an extra draft pick Jerian Grant. PG out of Notre Dane is a real sleeper and could be best PG in draft

Please God no. The Knicks need a core piece to build around. Their top priority should be to ensure that the piece they get in this draft is the best player they can possibly get.

The only way I'm OK with the Knicks trading down is if they're on the clock and they know for a fact (or as close to a fact as they can get) that the best available player on their draft board will still be there a few picks later. If the Knicks know they can trade down, get an asset, and pick the same player they would pick at #4, then that's a no-brainer - they're essentially getting an extra asset for free. Otherwise? Nail this pick and go from there.

In comment 12338440 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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Frederic Weis. Gallinari was gonna be Frederic Weis.

And Sam Dekker has to be Kyle Singler, Gordon Hayward, or Mike Dunleavy. Can't forget the white American player to white American player comparisons

and were able to nab Monroe.. IMO that makes a pretty good frontcourt with some size..

No one the Knicks draft is going to be someone to build the franchise around. But they should be a core component for years going forward..

I have no issue with anyone they pick within the consensus top six in all honesty..

In comment 12338433 Jon in NYC said:

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I'm really warming to WCS. He will be an elite defensive player from day 1, and I think has more offensive potential than what he was able to show in college.

Count me in on WCS too if we want to trade down a few.

In comment 12338391 TheMick7 said:

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he is. Most of the people on this thread know more than this lousy writer, whoever he is. That's just embarrassing.

In comment 12338426 Audible said:

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In comment 12338389 Greg from LI said: Quote: This kid is not Fr�d�ric Weis. The Weis comparisons are just lazy. NBA teams' scouting efforts overseas are way, way better than they were 15 years ago, and the level of play overseas is also drastically higher. Most of the teams that are considering Porzingis have seen plenty of him. And as players, they're not even close to the same. If we're going to pick Euro comparisons, Porzingis profiles as much closer to, say, a really tall Kirilenko, and even that is not an ideal comparison. He's a unique player.

Their NCAA scouting should be better too, but Anthony Bennett was still drafted #1 overall...

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Audible : 9:03 am : link : reply In comment 12338429 Earl the goat said: Quote: If the Knicks got Willue Cauley Stein by swapping picks and either getting a Vet who can help or an extra draft pick Jerian Grant. PG out of Notre Dane is a real sleeper and could be best PG in draft Please God no. The Knicks need a core piece to build around. Their top priority should be to ensure that the piece they get in this draft is the best player they can possibly get. The only way I'm OK with the Knicks trading down is if they're on the clock and they know for a fact (or as close to a fact as they can get) that the best available player on their draft board will still be there a few picks later. If the Knicks know they can trade down, get an asset, and pick the same player they would pick at #4, then that's a no-brainer - they're essentially getting an extra asset for free. Otherwise? Nail this pick and go from there.

+1

only the Cavs wanted to take Bennett at 1. They only drafted Irving because he was outright better than anyone in the draft, and even then they were on the verge of taking Derrick Williams. They've missed on every other pick since Lebron left.

In comment 12338482 giantsfan44ab said:

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only the Cavs wanted to take Bennett at 1. They only drafted Irving because he was outright better than anyone in the draft, and even then they were on the verge of taking Derrick Williams. They've missed on every other pick since Lebron left.

They nailed the Wiggins pick!

what they did what the Wiggins pick?

Second video in the series
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i just dont like him at 4. If he is who you really want you drop back a few picks. He just doesnt seem like a #4 pick.

In comment 12338484 giantsfan44ab said:

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what they did what the Wiggins pick?

They got the pick right, what GM Lebron did with Wiggins afterwards is another story.

and a pick high enough to still land WCS likely means that vet is a role player. Who is giving up a good NBA starter AND a top 8-10 pick for #4 pick? and the future #1 pick stuff can really come back to haunt you. Even if you deal with a "bad" team suddenly that bad team has a solid year and you are taking a #17 overall pick in 2016 as your consolation for passing on a potential stud this year.

that nets the Knicks Bledsoe and WCS, while dumping #4, THJR, and Calderon.

Do is take Porzingis at 4 unless Russell falls to 4. Backup plan is Mudiay or WCS in a little trade down situation where we can gain a future first or another starter. I like everything Porzingis is saying, he wants to shed that "soft" label that every euro has. One thing you are gonna get with this kid is an hard worker. If he puts as much time in the weight room as he does on his game, watch out. In 3-4 years he can add 25+ pounds of muscle and be a force. I am 100% in on this pick

to get rid of Calderon using the 4th pick please stop...no more using picks to get rid of bad contracts...

Secondly the person who said Jackson's comments about have a lead guard and sf means their drafting Winslow is really not paying attention...

Mudiay or Russell would not play the "lead guard" position in this offense, they would play the 2 guard, the penetrator and creator...

Calderon and Gallo would play the other guard which is the shooter, like Kerr or Paxson was next to Jordan...

In comment 12338502 giants#1 said:

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that nets the Knicks Bledsoe and WCS, while dumping #4, THJR, and Calderon.

No chance WCS is there at #13.

would only be there at 13 if the foot stuff is a major concern at which point we wouldn't even want him at 13. He's an absolute lock in the top 10 and most likely top 8.

I dont want to see him play. Give me fucking Shved over Calderon. He's at least long enough to not look like an absolute joke on defense.

In comment 12338532 giantsfan44ab said:

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I dont want to see him play. Give me fucking Shved over Calderon. He's at least long enough to not look like an absolute joke on defense.

Calderon next to an athletic 2 that can create and get into the lane is a lot better than a calderon that has to run the offense and create for others...

He played well when he played next to Ellis because Ellis had the ball in his hands and Calderon became a spot up shooter, which he is good at..

In comment 12338520 giantsfan44ab said:

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In comment 12338502 giants#1 said: Quote: that nets the Knicks Bledsoe and WCS, while dumping #4, THJR, and Calderon. No chance WCS is there at #13.

Hence the "3 team trade". Knicks get #8-10 pick and Bledsoe. Suns get #4. 3rd team gets #13 + THJR

if we used the stretch provision. It would nock it down from like 7.5 to like 4 right? id rather do that then give up anymore assets just to save a few mill. Only way im giving up assets to dump calderon's contract is if we have a deal with like Gasol and Monroe already done and we need to save the money. Im not saying i think there is any chance that happens, im just saying thats the only time id be willing to give up any asset to dump calderon.

does everyone talk about Calderon without taking into account the guy is a below average run jump athlete that is soon to be 34? Players decline with age. Most are NOT Jason Kidd. He's been in decline mode for 2 seasons now, not just one. Could he be better this year? It would be hard not to be. But move on if we can. He's 34!

I don't mind if he gets 10-15 minutes a game, but theres no winning combination with him as a starter. Not at 34.

In comment 12338542 giantsfan44ab said:

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I don't mind if he gets 10-15 minutes a game, but theres no winning combination with him as a starter. Not at 34.

Mudiay

In comment 12338536 giants#1 said:

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In comment 12338520 giantsfan44ab said: Hence the "3 team trade". Knicks get #8-10 pick and Bledsoe. Suns get #4. 3rd team gets #13 + THJR

At that point it would be too complicated to occur. Theres no scenario anything like that happens.

sign Mo Williams or Aaron Brooks with whatever leftover money we have after we nab Monroe and a center than trot out Calderon as a starter.

that NYG16 is correct - there is not a single trade that I would make at this point. The further and further we get into this draft process the more I don't want a trade at all. Even in the pie in the sky scenario that we get Bledsoe and drop back to 13 and get WCS, I still believe the only way the Knicks win a championship is to land a franchise player. Yea, Mudiay, Russell, Okafor or Porzingas may be gigantic flops, but they all could become franchise players. I think WCS could be a nice player, Winslow could be a nice player, Trey Lyles could be a nice player and if you team them up with Bledsoe, Monroe and Melo you could have a very good team. But the only way the Knicks can build a real championship contender is to take on the risk of one of the top 5 guys and hope they hit. If they fail they fail, much like the last 20 years. But one thing I can say without certainty is that no team has won in the past 20 years by collecting the spare parts of other teams without having a backbone built through the draft.

and Calderon is not involved...Guess what? your not adding Monroe, Knicks would only have around 12 million to spend

Dirk is the only player they drafted. Technically, Kidd too but he was essentially a free agent acquisition.

I really don't like too many of the rest of the guys in the draft, except maybe Dekker and Booker. Huge concerns with most of the other prospects. Not really for a trade back.

where you could maybe stretch calderon to get the extra few mill needed for Monroe. I remember Monroe/Bledsoe seemed like the dream offseason last year when it looked like both would be UFA this offseason.

Chris Mannix at SI just posted his latest mock that has us taking KP. Seems to be a common pick right now. I always wonder if each reporter is hearing the same stuff or if they are all just parroting like a Chad Ford.

In comment 12338568 giantsfan44ab said:

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Dirk is the only player they drafted. Technically, Kidd too but he was essentially a free agent acquisition.

So Dirk was not the backbone of that team?

Spurs: Duncan, Ginobli, parker, Leonard
Heat: Wade and haslem
Celtics: paul Pierce
Lakers: Kobe
Warriors: Curry and Klay

you need to draft a superstar player to get over the top because of the salary cap...you then have a star player cost controlled...you then can add the spare parts around him a lot easier with more money..

In comment 12338575 Italianju said:

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where you could maybe stretch calderon to get the extra few mill needed for Monroe. I remember Monroe/Bledsoe seemed like the dream offseason last year when it looked like both would be UFA this offseason. Chris Mannix at SI just posted his latest mock that has us taking KP. Seems to be a common pick right now. I always wonder if each reporter is hearing the same stuff or if they are all just parroting like a Chad Ford.

Givony has us taking him as well and he 100% does have league sources. Hahn also implied he's legit on our radar.


KP TIME BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!

In comment 12338575 Italianju said:

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where you could maybe stretch calderon to get the extra few mill needed for Monroe. I remember Monroe/Bledsoe seemed like the dream offseason last year when it looked like both would be UFA this offseason. Chris Mannix at SI just posted his latest mock that has us taking KP. Seems to be a common pick right now. I always wonder if each reporter is hearing the same stuff or if they are all just parroting like a Chad Ford.

Porzingis is the new flavor of the week because they had him in for a workout yesterday...so now every beat writer thinks the Knicks are taking him...

ford and DX have him to us prior to the workout on Monday? His size is so intriguing. I was watching the NBA draft show on NBA tv last night and they were talking about him for a bit and showed a lot of video on him, he is def a guy you can get excited about.

Just saying outside Dirk that team was pretty much spare parts. Don't think current Melo is that much worse than Dirk was that championship year. Not saying its going to happen but the blueprint is there.

get blasted for it... but how about giving the fans some excitement level. Not that you can get excited over some of the other names but there is something about the "unknown" that makes Porzingis so intriguing. He doesn't sound like a "Euro pussy" in interviews either. in fact, personality wise he sounds more like Dirk.

working him out yesterday is a way of forcing the Magic to move up one, giving the Knicks an asset & the 5th pick?

In comment 12338589 TheMick7 said:

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working him out yesterday is a way of forcing the Magic to move up one, giving the Knicks an asset & the 5th pick?

That's the most sensible explanation. If they love him enough to just take him, however, I'd applaud them for being bold.

know most have seen this video already but boy is this kid fluid for his size. He doesn't remind me of Bargnani or Weis at all.
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In comment 12338584 giantsfan44ab said:

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Just saying outside Dirk that team was pretty much spare parts. Don't think current Melo is that much worse than Dirk was that championship year. Not saying its going to happen but the blueprint is there.

Dirk absolutely dominated that playoffs and carried that team...

He averaged 27 points 8 rebounds and 2.5 assists that playoffs shooting 48% and 46% FROM 3...

i wish Melo played like that a couple of years ago in the playoffs

The chances that the Knicks will keep the pick are much less so. Several scenarios have the trade happening after the draft, not at it, because the Knicks need to know how far any players they are targeting are going to fall.

The thing about WCS is that the Knicks seem to have scouted him pretty extensively. IF--and a big one at that--they believe he has substantial offensive upside, then he really fits them well, because his defense is strong and his athleticism is off the charts, and he would thus work well along side Murray. They know what they got out of workouts on that score, we will find out.

And, of course, I very much doubt it would be at the #4 slot. If they can get another rotation player or the elimination of Calderon's contract with a trade down, it becomes more intriguing.

One article last night indicated that he might have a problem with a surgical pin in his foot, though.

With the trades for future picks, the Knicks suck again this year. I doubt Jackson has the balls to take that risk. Dropping out of the playoffs in a year we don't even have our own #1 is incredibly risky. The mess of non-owned future draft picks is probably Jackson's biggest headache.

to make a deal with PHI for KP which would push Russell down to us.

Also:
Al Iannazzone ‏@Al_Iannazzone 4m4 minutes ago
Pistons president/coach Stan Van Gundy says he's "not entirely optimistic" about re-signing Greg Monroe, who many expect to be a Knick.

if the Magic took Porzingis over Okafor and then Okafor would fall to the Knicks.

Al Iannazzone ‏@Al_Iannazzone 7m7 minutes ago
Pistons president/coach Stan Van Gundy says he's "not entirely optimistic" about re-signing Greg Monroe, who many expect to be a Knick.

knows how true it is but the "experts" seem to believe Russell is #1 on Phil's list but doesn't see him there at 4.

but maybe that is just because i trust my source...

For the simple reason that he seems like the guy with the highest upside. Gamble on greatness. If it takes him a few seasons to get there, so what?

Shams Charania ‏@ShamsCharania 1m1 minute ago
NBPA told agents in meeting Monday that it is researching Philadelphia for possible violation of collective bargaining, sources tell RealGM.

Chris Mannix ‏@ChrisMannixSI 1m1 minute ago
He's 100% right RT @GwashburnGlobe: Danny Ainge: "There should be a lot of movement on draft night, so stay tuned."

..

Whatever it is they should probably take their pick away...

Kurt Helin ‏@basketballtalk 51s51 seconds ago
Report: Kings shopping Rudy Gay, trying to create cap space to sign Rajon Rondo http://dlvr.it/BJL2Gr

Of those guys, maybe Russell is a bit less 'whelming', but I've heard he's a hell of a passer.

In comment 12338630 Anakim said:

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Kurt Helin ‏@basketballtalk 51s51 seconds ago Report: Kings shopping Rudy Gay, trying to create cap space to sign Rajon Rondo http://dlvr.it/BJL2Gr

LOL Rondo and Karl.

Two toxins that might explode, or neutralize each other.

There's hope for us yet...

In comment 12338616 Greg from LI said:

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For the simple reason that he seems like the guy with the highest upside. Gamble on greatness. If it takes him a few seasons to get there, so what?

I agree

so that we can overpay another descent player. Sounds like a smart move

They'll either take Mudiay or Russell if he's there. They might also try to get everyone to believe they'll take Porzingis for a potential trade, but they're only going to draft players who can penetrate.

Russell, Melo, Monroe. That's your core 3 players? That's some shitty defense right there. Not awful -- each is probably underrated defensively -- but you have to worry. You'd want your #4-6 players to be defensive stalwarts, and one of those starters would have to be a defensive captain type who drives the younger guys to try harder. Melo will just have to motivate himself on defense; which he might do since he's rarely played with firepower like Monroe and Russell (two legit efficient scorers/passers).

A kid like Mudiay makes a lot more sense to me for the Knick.

to me how many Knicks fans are in a rush to be the 5th seed and lose in the 2nd round at best every year

want Monroe but he's not underrated defensively. He's an awful defensive player unless you are giving him credit for rebounding as part of defense or simply being a large body. Foot speed is awful, agility is awful, can't jump.

who thinks we take Mudiay if Russell is still on the board.

The strong consensus seems to be that right now for Jackson, there is a first plateau of 3, and Mudiay isn;t in it. Of course, Jackson has been silent since about Mudiay since the interview/workout, which could mean that he is playing possum.

If Russell is there you have to take him.

I don't think he's going to be, but.. I am trying to hold out hope.

to write that article.

Knicks should trade a guy who is a free agent to clear cap space? And give up the #4 pick in the draft for the privilege to do it?

Or the fact the guy says Calderon was a bad "signing"......

defender. Melo is fine and Monroe can be ok. Guys who are great offensively and defensively are rare and not available so. You get a defensive big to go with Monroe and a defensive 2 guard. Pretty much what we have all been saying all season.

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Dirk absolutely dominated that playoffs and carried that team... He averaged 27 points 8 rebounds and 2.5 assists that playoffs shooting 48% and 46% FROM 3... i wish Melo played like that a couple of years ago in the playoffs

In Melo's defense, ask Lebron James how easy it is trying to win in the postseason with JR Smith as your second best player. I know Lebron filled up the stat sheet, but his shooting numbers and efficiency were way off from what they normally are. Lebron for that one series got a taste of what Carmelo has had to deal with for basically his whole tenure as a Knick.

2 of the Porzingis feature
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In comment 12338643 MookGiants said:

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to me how many Knicks fans are in a rush to be the 5th seed and lose in the 2nd round at best every year

If there's a plan that guarantees something beyond that, we're all ears. I'd love to draft Russell and sign Gasol, and get another big fish next offseason, but teams owned by James Dolan in cold-weather climates with 40-year championship droughts aren't able to execute Plan A all that often.

I'm all for saving the money for a rainy day, however, rather than handing $80 million to Greg Monroe.

I think they're done with it.

In comment 12338645 DanMetroMan said:

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want Monroe but he's not underrated defensively. He's an awful defensive player unless you are giving him credit for rebounding as part of defense or simply being a large body. Foot speed is awful, agility is awful, can't jump.

103 defensive rating and his 1.3 DBPM was more than twice his offensive BPM. Whatever he's doing with those slow feet that can't jump is working on that side of the ball.

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Defensively, Monroe is big enough to get in the way of opposing scorers but blocks shots at the same rate as Mike Dunleavy. A rim protector he is not; Monroe has neither the feel for coverage nor the vertical lift to really challenge opponents at the basket, making it all the more important that he be flanked by a player who can. At the same time, Monroe's minutes at power forward have illustrated his troubles in recovering out to perimeter threats. The further an opponent strays from the paint the more pressure it puts on Monroe's lumbering recovery. He does his part to chase out to the three-point line when necessary, though rarely does so quickly enough or with enough balance to help steady his team's defense. Monroe is stuck between, in a sense: Not quick enough to hang with most opponents stationed outside and not imposing enough to help anchor a top defense inside. Given those limitations, how would one go about building a roster to best take advantage of what Monroe's talents? His post work would go most smoothly alongside a stretchy big capable of spreading the floor. His defensive issues, though, need be addressed by a more conventional rim-protecting counterpart. In the frontcourt alone that means Monroe's team would be aiming for a defensive pillar with shooting range -- an intersection of remarkable rarity. Barring an unexpected union with Anthony Davis, Monroe might be faced with a career of somewhat clumsy fits. He's already seen the lot of them in Detroit, where in four seasons the Pistons only managed three positive lineups with Monroe among the 17 that played 100 minutes or more, per NBA.com. Some of that is the mark of a consistently bad, mismanaged team. Another part, though, speaks to the difficulty of finding and acquiring the right kinds of pieces needed to build around a sub-superstar so particular.

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In comment 12338600 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 12338584 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: Just saying outside Dirk that team was pretty much spare parts. Don't think current Melo is that much worse than Dirk was that championship year. Not saying its going to happen but the blueprint is there. Dirk absolutely dominated that playoffs and carried that team... He averaged 27 points 8 rebounds and 2.5 assists that playoffs shooting 48% and 46% FROM 3... i wish Melo played like that a couple of years ago in the playoffs

Well two seasons ago with an incredibly shitty roster, Melo averaged 27, 8, 3 shooting 45% and 40% from 3 so it's not that far off. And that was during an entire SEASON.

Melo is also a career 25.7 ppg scorer in the post season including 26+ ppg his last 5 postseasons. Granted, his three point percentage is much lower.

That said Dirk won that year but I feel like that's more of an outlier than the norm.

but he is never going to be a good help defender he is not athletic enough...

Offensively he is the perfect fit for the triangle as a big man...

In comment 12338676 bceagle05 said:

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In comment 12338643 MookGiants said: Quote: to me how many Knicks fans are in a rush to be the 5th seed and lose in the 2nd round at best every year If there's a plan that guarantees something beyond that, we're all ears. I'd love to draft Russell and sign Gasol, and get another big fish next offseason, but teams owned by James Dolan in cold-weather climates with 40-year championship droughts aren't able to execute Plan A all that often. I'm all for saving the money for a rainy day, however, rather than handing $80 million to Greg Monroe.

There is no plan that guarantees something beyond that. But some of the plans people are coming up with guarantee at best that.

Swing for the fences. Nothing gained, nothing lost if it doesn't work out.

what you consider a swing for the fences plan.

Could you clarify?

ProBasketballTalk ‏@nbcprobballtalk 8s9 seconds ago
Report: Julius Randle �in play� in Lakers-Kings DeMarcus Cousins trade talks

In comment 12338700 manh george said:

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what you consider a swing for the fences plan. Could you clarify?

Keep the pick and go BPA, no trading for overpriced vets and moving back and getting another role player...Knicks need a superstar at this pick...

Swing for the fences and take a chance dont take the easy way out and move down...

In comment 12338705 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 12338700 manh george said: Quote: what you consider a swing for the fences plan. Could you clarify? Keep the pick and go BPA, no trading for overpriced vets and moving back and getting another role player...Knicks need a superstar at this pick... Swing for the fences and take a chance dont take the easy way out and move down...

16 took the words right out of my mouth.

and picking up a vet player but the more i think about it...why would you do that?

great you can get Bledsoe at 15 million a year and a devon Booker or sam dekker...yeah that doesnt excite me...

Justise Winslow isn�t sure where he�s going to be drafted on Thursday night. But if he ends up in New York, which has the fourth overall pick, Winslow believes he�ll be a �great fit� with the Knicks.

�The team is built around Carmelo (Anthony), obviously, so I feel like I�m somebody that can complement his skills and play with him in that offense,� Winslow said in an interview with ESPN on Monday. �I feel like on the offensive end, it would be a great fit next to him and the pieces that they already have -- and I�m sure that they�re going to bring in someone else in free agency. This is an exciting time to be a part of the Knicks. If that�s where I land, that�s somewhere where I think I can excel.�

Winslow worked out for the Knicks two weeks ago and had a subsequent dinner meeting with members of the club last week. During his workout, Winslow watched film of the triangle with team president Phil Jackson, coach Derek Fisher and other members of the organization and then implemented some of the triangle actions on the court.

�I think the workout went very well," said Winslow. "They got to know me as a player and got to know me as a person and what I can bring to the organization. I think I put my best foot forward and showed them who Justise Winslow is.�
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They need to use this pick to find an all star. You might fail, but you still need to take a chance.

You will get your role players along the way as you improve the team, because even if you strike gold and get the next Stephen Curry, there are going to be years of development before you can start dreaming of championships.

Jumping up to "first-round exit" level by overspending on free agents means years of 14-19 draft picks, and then you'll never even have a chance to find a star.

that I would consider is that wild Denver scenario where they'd get picks #6 and #7 (through a Lawson deal) and trade them both to the Knicks to move up to #4. Can't fathom that being even remotely accurate, but it'd be tough to turn down. Otherwise I agree, stay put. We suffered for that top four pick.

In comment 12338687 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Quote: Defensively, Monroe is big enough to get in the way of opposing scorers but blocks shots at the same rate as Mike Dunleavy. A rim protector he is not; Monroe has neither the feel for coverage nor the vertical lift to really challenge opponents at the basket, making it all the more important that he be flanked by a player who can. At the same time, Monroe's minutes at power forward have illustrated his troubles in recovering out to perimeter threats. The further an opponent strays from the paint the more pressure it puts on Monroe's lumbering recovery. He does his part to chase out to the three-point line when necessary, though rarely does so quickly enough or with enough balance to help steady his team's defense. Monroe is stuck between, in a sense: Not quick enough to hang with most opponents stationed outside and not imposing enough to help anchor a top defense inside. Given those limitations, how would one go about building a roster to best take advantage of what Monroe's talents? His post work would go most smoothly alongside a stretchy big capable of spreading the floor. His defensive issues, though, need be addressed by a more conventional rim-protecting counterpart. In the frontcourt alone that means Monroe's team would be aiming for a defensive pillar with shooting range -- an intersection of remarkable rarity. Barring an unexpected union with Anthony Davis, Monroe might be faced with a career of somewhat clumsy fits. He's already seen the lot of them in Detroit, where in four seasons the Pistons only managed three positive lineups with Monroe among the 17 that played 100 minutes or more, per NBA.com. Some of that is the mark of a consistently bad, mismanaged team. Another part, though, speaks to the difficulty of finding and acquiring the right kinds of pieces needed to build around a sub-superstar so particular. Link - ( New Window )

I read that as he's not a defensive anchor, not that he's a poor defender. The 2nd part also sounds like WCS would be a perfect fit (if reports of his jumper being better than expected are true).

In comment 12338716 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Justise Winslow isn�t sure where he�s going to be drafted on Thursday night. But if he ends up in New York, which has the fourth overall pick, Winslow believes he�ll be a �great fit� with the Knicks. �The team is built around Carmelo (Anthony), obviously, so I feel like I�m somebody that can complement his skills and play with him in that offense,� Winslow said in an interview with ESPN on Monday. �I feel like on the offensive end, it would be a great fit next to him and the pieces that they already have -- and I�m sure that they�re going to bring in someone else in free agency. This is an exciting time to be a part of the Knicks. If that�s where I land, that�s somewhere where I think I can excel.� Winslow worked out for the Knicks two weeks ago and had a subsequent dinner meeting with members of the club last week. During his workout, Winslow watched film of the triangle with team president Phil Jackson, coach Derek Fisher and other members of the organization and then implemented some of the triangle actions on the court. �I think the workout went very well," said Winslow. "They got to know me as a player and got to know me as a person and what I can bring to the organization. I think I put my best foot forward and showed them who Justise Winslow is.� Link - ( New Window )

This tells me winslow is not the pick...He is talking to much about the Knicks and their workout..

the best SAC can do. Still not a great trade for them, but if you believe in Randle (im not sure i do) then its a descent trade if you are determined to move cousins.

The concerns over his foot which has a surgically inserted pin ended that for me. Draft healthy players with premium picks. The same philosophy applies for the Giants in football.

In comment 12338734 Italianju said:

Quote:

the best SAC can do. Still not a great trade for them, but if you believe in Randle (im not sure i do) then its a descent trade if you are determined to move cousins.

Would you? I wouldn't. Cousins might be something of a risk for behavior, but I thought he was without incident this year and maybe even improving that about himself.

I hope Porz!

Russell

As it currently stands, the Hawks don�t really have a roster spot for a player they would pick in the second round. They could select an international player who will remain overseas to develop. They could also pick a player who would play internationally to develop � as was the case with last year�s second-rounders Edy Tavares and Lamar Patterson. Tavares spend the season in Spain�s ACB League and Patterson played in Turkey.

�We spend a lot of time on the international market and studying the international players,� Wilcox said. �We believe in the value of international guys.�

A trade involving one or more second-rounders is a real possibility. The Hawks have assets. They could package the picks to move up from No. 15 in the first round if a player they like falls. The Hawks won�t give up what it would take to move into the top four spots. However, they could move up anywhere from Nos. 5-14.

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In comment 12338747 Carl in CT said:

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I hope Porz!

Probably Russell...karl wants to run

then perhaps the Magic get the #2 and take Porz, otherwise the Knicks are shit outta luck.

Cousins for 2 and Randle they are fucking morons

that the Kings are clearing some space for Rondo, so who knows? Sounds like a mess.

...or in the locker room to be seriously considering the rumored deals. They are getting bent over on paper.

...
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 12338766 bceagle05 said:

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that the Kings are clearing some space for Rondo, so who knows? Sounds like a mess.

If that's true then you'd have to assume they are looking to take Okafor, but Okafor and Randle would be terrible defensively. Their spacing would be piss poor as well because both of those guys operate best in the post Gay isn't exactly a good outside shooter, Rondo can't make a layup let alone an outside shot...basically the only guys they'd run out on the floor that can shoot at all are McLemore and Stauskas. Awful

vs. Russell
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 12338773 Torrag said:

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...or in the locker room to be seriously considering the rumored deals. They are getting bent over on paper.

Cousins isnt the type of player that will get you far. Poor leader known to be selfish and a lack of self control evident by the piling technicals each year. His body language when things arent going his way is awful to watch if your a fan teammate or coach. Incredibly talented yes but reminds me of the Chris Webber type who will put up gaudy stats but his team will perennially struggle.

i was just saying if SAC is determined to move him then thats not a horrible deal. THere are very few deals id consider for him, he is a young superstar.

Cousins for Randle/#2
Love for Wiggins + spare parts

Supposedly Karl's in on Lawson, too. Sounds like whatever they do, they're gonna be a lot worse five days from now than they are today. Why not just build around Cousins, Gay and the #6 pick?

He's a 24 year old stud entering his prime who just posted a season at 24.1ppg/12.7rpg/1.7bpg. You can't win with him? I couldn't disagree more.

CBS Sports NBA ‏@CBSSportsNBA 2m2 minutes ago
Report: Thunder shopping Perry Jones, Jeremy Lamb, Steve Novak

and this is the one that makes sense for all parties involved.

Lakers get: Collison, Gay, and Cousins

Sacramento gets: Vucevic, Randle, Aaron Gordon and Clarkson

Magic get: #2 and #27

Seems fair-ish as can be. Can give the #27 to the Kings, or give the Kings the #2 and the Magic the #5 if thats more fair. Can distribute Harkless and Nicholson as needed.

WCS
Randle
Gay
McLemore/Stauskas
Russell

Plus cap room from moving Cousins...does that roster have any potential to be good?

In comment 12338797 Anakim said:

Quote:

CBS Sports NBA ‏@CBSSportsNBA 2m2 minutes ago Report: Thunder shopping Perry Jones, Jeremy Lamb, Steve Novak

Bring back discount double check? Kidding.

not #5.

Doesn't leave with a franchise type player like Cousins is, unless they are that high on Russell. Thats not terrible.

I would go all in if I were them. Get rid of Gay as well and acquire Clarkson, Vucevic and Aaron Gordon as well.

NBA Legion ‏@MySportsLegion 42s42 seconds ago
The Celtics offered Marcus Smart, picks 16 and 28 to the 76ers for Nerlens Noel and the 3rd overall pick. Philly declined. (LA Times)

In comment 12338797 Anakim said:

Quote:

CBS Sports NBA ‏@CBSSportsNBA 2m2 minutes ago Report: Thunder shopping Perry Jones, Jeremy Lamb, Steve Novak

Ship them all to Denver for Chandler. He is their last missing piece. Can't believe they want to keep Waiters around still.

that they don't have the players to build a legit contender?

Hopefully pushes Stevens to go back to NCAA and coach the Hoosiers.

In comment 12338818 Anakim said:

Quote:

NBA Legion ‏@MySportsLegion 42s42 seconds ago The Celtics offered Marcus Smart, picks 16 and 28 to the 76ers for Nerlens Noel and the 3rd overall pick. Philly declined. (LA Times)

Celtics can not be serious

Chris Herring ‏@HerringWSJ 38s39 seconds ago
Phil Jackson chatting with reporters ahead of the draft: "I'm here to speak about things I can't speak about."

Chris Herring ‏@HerringWSJ 27s27 seconds ago
Phil, on potentially trading the pick: "We're listening. Not soliciting so much, but we're listening."

NBA New York Knicks ‏@nyknicks 37s37 seconds ago
.@PhilJackson11: �We�re looking for mature kids with reasonable understanding of their skills.� #KnicksDraft15

Noel > Smart
#3 pick > #16 + #28 pick

How dumb do they think the Sixers are?

In comment 12338843 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

NBA New York Knicks ‏@nyknicks 37s37 seconds ago .@PhilJackson11: �We�re looking for mature kids with reasonable understanding of their skills.� #KnicksDraft15

So no to the project Porzingis?

Al Iannazzone ‏@Al_Iannazzone 49s50 seconds ago
Phil sounds like he wants a mature player who can help now from this draft.

In comment 12338846 Anakim said:

Quote:

In comment 12338843 nygiants16 said: Quote: NBA New York Knicks ‏@nyknicks 37s37 seconds ago .@PhilJackson11: �We�re looking for mature kids with reasonable understanding of their skills.� #KnicksDraft15 So no to the project Porzingis?

Pretty sure he's talking mentally, not their actual age. Porzingis comes off as very mature to me.

Chris Herring ‏@HerringWSJ 20s21 seconds ago
Phil says Melo was on the court shooting yesterday. Says Melo also sat on sidelines and watched some draftees work out here yesterday

an Begley ‏@IanBegley 40s40 seconds ago
#Knicks Phil Jackson says Carmelo Anthony "looks great" while shooting on the court and is "happy with where he's at" in his rehab.

Just shows you what media perception can do for you. They are in no man's land with a team of JAGs and a bunch of mid-round picks that will keep them there unless someone bails them out with a lopsided trade, and people act like Stevens and Ainge have discovered some rebuilding secret. I'm guessing teams won't be handing them Hall of Famers on a silver platter like last time. I wouldn't move down two spots in the draft for any asset the Celtics have to offer.

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 40s40 seconds ago
#Knicks Phil Jackson says the NBA should hold free agency before the draft, as the NFL does.

In comment 12338854 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 40s40 seconds ago #Knicks Phil Jackson says the NBA should hold free agency before the draft, as the NFL does.

I agree also

In comment 12338818 Anakim said:

Quote:

NBA Legion ‏@MySportsLegion 42s42 seconds ago The Celtics offered Marcus Smart, picks 16 and 28 to the 76ers for Nerlens Noel and the 3rd overall pick. Philly declined. (LA Times)

Since when did Scott Layden join the Celtics?

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 3s4 seconds ago
#Knicks Phil Jackson doesn't want to discuss Demarcus Cousins situation but suggests NY doesn't have the assets to be involved

In comment 12338854 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 40s40 seconds ago #Knicks Phil Jackson says the NBA should hold free agency before the draft, as the NFL does.

What's the advantage of FA prior to the draft?

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 1m1 minute ago
FWIW, #Knicks Phil Jackson says there is a small percentage that he will trade the pick.

Jonah Ballow ‏@jonahballow 2m2 minutes ago
.@PhilJackson11 on a potential trade in Sacramento w/ Cousins available: �We are aware of the situation.�

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 1m1 minute ago
#Knicks Phil Jackson doesn't want to discuss Demarcus Cousins situation but suggests NY doesn't have the assets to be involved.

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 52s52 seconds ago
#Knicks Phil Jackson says he has no idea what Philadelphia will do. In that sense, he's just like the rest of us.

Chris Herring ‏@HerringWSJ 13s14 seconds ago
Phil says it's hard to tell how much of the pre-draft info that comes out is actually relevant to draft. Cites Embiid and Cousins news.

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 35s35 seconds ago
#Knicks Phil Jackson says the team is looking to purchase a 2nd round pick.

Chris Herring ‏@HerringWSJ 33s33 seconds ago
Phil said the team's workout yesterday -- reportedly Porzingis -- had to be canceled due to a cramp.

So frank Isola ripped Phil Jackson for doing a radio interview saying he was doing an interview rather than watching Porzingis workout and Porzingis wa snot even working out?

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 37s38 seconds ago
#Knicks Phil Jackson hinted that Kristaps Porzingis was dealing with an injury and didn't make it through his full workout yesterday.

In comment 12338877 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

Chris Herring ‏@HerringWSJ 33s33 seconds ago Phil said the team's workout yesterday -- reportedly Porzingis -- had to be canceled due to a cramp. So frank Isola ripped Phil Jackson for doing a radio interview saying he was doing an interview rather than watching Porzingis workout and Porzingis wa snot even working out?

Par for the course for Frank. Next he'll use this opportunity to rip the knicks for not announcing that the workout was cancelled.

Scott Layden would be offering Noel and #3 for Smart, #16, and #27, not the other way around.

NBA New York Knicks ‏@nyknicks 42s43 seconds ago
.@PhilJackson11 says it�s a positive for a prospect to spend several years in college if the team wants them to move right into the lineup.

Chris Herring ‏@HerringWSJ 21s22 seconds ago
Phil, on whether he'd prefer to play Carmelo at the 3 or the 4: "It depends upon the big."

years? So silly. That would rule out everyone in the lottery outside of WCS and Kaminsky

In comment 12338896 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

years? So silly. That would rule out everyone in the lottery outside of WCS and Kaminsky

He just said it's A positive.

Chris Herring ‏@HerringWSJ 27s28 seconds ago
@WexlerRules The workout part was cancelled. He went through medical tests with docs here.

Citing it as a positive doesn't mean he's ruling the other guys out.

It should be a two and done, at the very least

is delusional now.

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 3m3 minutes ago
#Knicks Phil Jackson: "I did a great job last year."

Chris Herring ‏@HerringWSJ 5m5 minutes ago
Phil says ideally, team could find a good enough rim-protecting center -- in draft or FA -- that allows enough flexibility to play Melo at 4

Chris Herring ‏@HerringWSJ 3m3 minutes ago
Phil just said that he did a "great job" last season in terms of shedding salary and putting team in position to get high pick.

In comment 12338845 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

Quote:

Noel > Smart #3 pick > #16 + #28 pick How dumb do they think the Sixers are?

Remember, Ainge is their gm.

and he spends his money wisely, then he did do a great job last year. We'll find out soon enough.

.

In comment 12338912 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Ian Begley ‏@IanBegley 3m3 minutes ago #Knicks Phil Jackson: "I did a great job last year."

As somebody who pays attention to Sandy Alderson press conferences, you should know how to recognize tongue-in-cheek comments.

Calderon vs. dumping Smith was a net negative so far in "cap room" and let's see how this high pick turns out. If Frank Kaminsky and a "veteran asset" are what we have to show..... Phil rips todays offense in favor of the triangle is comical as well.

I won't litter the thread with my thoughts on WCS.

But based on some of Phil's comments, it really does seem like he's describing WCS moreso than any other prospect in that range.

In comment 12338914 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

Chris Herring ‏@HerringWSJ 5m5 minutes ago Phil says ideally, team could find a good enough rim-protecting center -- in draft or FA -- that allows enough flexibility to play Melo at 4 Chris Herring ‏@HerringWSJ 3m3 minutes ago Phil just said that he did a "great job" last season in terms of shedding salary and putting team in position to get high pick.

Too bad Phil forgot to send the memo about getting a high pick to Fisher and THJ who thought they were supposed to combine to be like Steve Kerr and Steph Curry for the last week of the season.

they keep the pick and you go by his comments then WCS and Kaminsky would be the obvious names. Who knows how much of what he says is accurate/true though.

is all misinformation and misleading peoples thoughts. Phil is the zen master - he thrives on mental games. If you read his book all he did was play mental games with MJ/Kobe to get what he wanted. It's just his way. don't read into anything. all smoke and mirrors.

all well and good but we've yet to see Phil's talent judging acumen and his obsession with the triangle (Charley Rosen made pretty clear the media isn't hyping up Phil's triangle obsession at all). I'm not giving Phil Jackson the benefit of the doubt here. He's proven the triangle works with 1st ballot HOFers (multiple) on a roster.

at 4. I think Phil knows that he needs a guard who can penetrate and create and no such guard is forthcoming from FA or via a trade, given our complete lack of assets.

and it's probably gonna go Towns-Okafor-Russell-Mudiay, as we all assumed months ago.

I wish it was 8pm thursday all this speculation and not knowing is just making each day drag and drag...

plus i am nervous my information is going to be wrong...

but it's also not as unique as people make it out to be (as Horry claimed recently). And I highly doubt Phil is giving up hints about his pick. Far more likely he's generating smoke.

In comment 12339000 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

and it's probably gonna go Towns-Okafor-Russell-Mudiay, as we all assumed months ago.

Yup. This is how the NFL works too. Mel Kiper and Todd Mckshay have their draft boards, then proceed to change it every damn week only to revert to their original ones. All pertinent information was known by execs as soon as the NCAA and international seasons ended.

so. Mudiay fills a need, has upside, intelligence, athleticism to be a difference maker on defense. He doesn't need to be a superstar, an above average PG is a game changer for us.

In comment 12339000 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

and it's probably gonna go Towns-Okafor-Russell-Mudiay, as we all assumed months ago.

I'm okay with that if it falls that way. I can have my pick between Mudiay and Zinger? Sure, why not.

In comment 12339013 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

In comment 12339000 bceagle05 said: Quote: and it's probably gonna go Towns-Okafor-Russell-Mudiay, as we all assumed months ago. Yup. This is how the NFL works too. Mel Kiper and Todd Mckshay have their draft boards, then proceed to change it every damn week only to revert to their original ones. All pertinent information was known by execs as soon as the NCAA and international seasons ended.

Combine and pro-days have some impact since it's usually the first "live" look the GM/coach get at the players. Though probably doesn't affect the top 3-5 players much.

For the NBA, the workouts likely have some impact, especially when grading guys at similar positions (e.g. Russell vs Mudiay or Towns vs Okafor). If Okafor showed more range than thought it might've closed the gap some.

in no way does he match Phil's description of an ideal big man for this team. Makes me wonder if he's the stone cold lock everyone assumes.

a kid whom basically spurned him (and maybe a shot at a big season) Larry Brown has been effusive in his praise of Mudiay including his potential fit with us.

In comment 12339024 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

in no way does he match Phil's description of an ideal big man for this team. Makes me wonder if he's the stone cold lock everyone assumes.

Note that there are two big men slots that need to be filled. It would be counterproductive for both of them to fit the same exact description.

next to a Robin Lopez type + Mudiay would suddenly have the Knicks looking in decent shape.

In comment 12339024 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

in no way does he match Phil's description of an ideal big man for this team. Makes me wonder if he's the stone cold lock everyone assumes.

Was thinking about that too actually. If you can get a defensive and shotblocking player with some range (like ability to hit occasional jumper) it could work.

--

In terms of a deal, the most the Knicks can offer is 4 years 60 right? Since he would be coming off his rookie deal and signing with another team?

In comment 12339040 kash94 said:

Quote:

In comment 12339024 bceagle05 said: Quote: in no way does he match Phil's description of an ideal big man for this team. Makes me wonder if he's the stone cold lock everyone assumes. Was thinking about that too actually. If you can get a defensive and shotblocking player with some range (like ability to hit occasional jumper) it could work. -- In terms of a deal, the most the Knicks can offer is 4 years 60 right? Since he would be coming off his rookie deal and signing with another team?

Yes. And 4 for 60 (flaws and all) is a steal for a 25 year old big with his skills.

In comment 12339036 DanMetroMan said:

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next to a Robin Lopez type + Mudiay would suddenly have the Knicks looking in decent shape.

PG: Mudiay, Calderon, some PG
SG: Galloway, THJ, Thannis
SF: Melo, some 3-5 million player, Early
PF: Monroe, Acy
C: Lopez, vet min guy

Not a great team by any stretch but at least there's some base there. Team would be able to add a 15 million player type the following year or a max slot if they can move Calderon I think.

In comment 12339042 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 12339040 kash94 said: Quote: In comment 12339024 bceagle05 said: Quote: in no way does he match Phil's description of an ideal big man for this team. Makes me wonder if he's the stone cold lock everyone assumes. Was thinking about that too actually. If you can get a defensive and shotblocking player with some range (like ability to hit occasional jumper) it could work. -- In terms of a deal, the most the Knicks can offer is 4 years 60 right? Since he would be coming off his rookie deal and signing with another team? Yes. And 4 for 60 (flaws and all) is a steal for a 25 year old big with his skills.

I tend to agree despite all these flaws. In a few years 15 million a year for a guy putting up 15-18, 10-12 and a decent passer is not bad. He's only 25 also as you said

that can fit alongside Mudiay. George Hill, OJ Mayo, Wilson Chandler, Nic Batum, Eric Gordon, and even Lance Stephenson, Deron Williams or Brandon Jennings if they have a comeback year.

A George Hill/Mudiay backcourt can be pretty good.

1) He is available
2) He might want to play for us.
3) He is big.

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA 56s57 seconds ago
Don't be surprised if there are a number of draft-day deals. I keep hearing that many teams are seriously considering moving up or down.

but why are so many obsessed with shedding salary? We are in GREAT financial shape and next off-season should be great as well. Big deal we have Calderon on the books for 7 per...that's nothing.

IF we are trading down it's gonna be for TALENT. It's gonna be a 2 for 1 type deal. It won't be done primarily to shed salary. Calderon's contract won't prevent the Knicks from signing big names the next 2 years.

Lazy articles written by people that have nothing else to write about so they conjure up the same crap written last week. Oh I have to write about the Knicks? Let me summon up some negativity and focus on money because everyone can relate to that. It's horse shit.

In comment 12339085 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA 56s57 seconds ago Don't be surprised if there are a number of draft-day deals. I keep hearing that many teams are seriously considering moving up or down.

Jon in NYC's favorite writer. Haha

In comment 12339098 djm said:

Quote:

but why are so many obsessed with shedding salary? We are in GREAT financial shape and next off-season should be great as well. Big deal we have Calderon on the books for 7 per...that's nothing. IF we are trading down it's gonna be for TALENT. It's gonna be a 2 for 1 type deal. It won't be done primarily to shed salary. Calderon's contract won't prevent the Knicks from signing big names the next 2 years. Lazy articles written by people that have nothing else to write about so they conjure up the same crap written last week. Oh I have to write about the Knicks? Let me summon up some negativity and focus on money because everyone can relate to that. It's horse shit.

Phil brought up his ability to shed salary as doing a "great job". Wasn't a media swipe.

with Orlando? Are they really a threat to take Mudiay if KP is still available? We can try prying one of Dedmon, Harkless, Nicholson, and Dedmon and additionally passing on Calderon to them.

instead of 2 Dedmons

Play the 3. You can't start those two as your 4 and 5, you would get killed inside and have no rim protection. At this point with the way the league is I think Melo is much better suited to play the 4 than the 3. You can get away with him guarding guys like Love or Bosh and other stretch 4s. When he plays the 3 you start getting into match ups with guys like Lebron, Paul George, etc that are much tougher for him.

Ideally they would be able to get DeAndre Jordan and play him next to Melo and you're actually in decent shape up front defensively. It gives them so much more flexibility when figuring out the rest of the roster because you are off to a much better start defensively. Good luck attracting Jordan here though.

.

In comment 12339112 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

with Orlando? Are they really a threat to take Mudiay if KP is still available? We can try prying one of Dedmon, Harkless, Nicholson, and Dedmon and additionally passing on Calderon to them.

Well if they want KP that badly and the Knicks are sold on Mudiay, then I'd trade back just for an extra 2nd round pick. Anything more than that is gravy.

In comment 12339117 Anakim said:

Quote:

SCORE

In comment 12339112 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

with Orlando? Are they really a threat to take Mudiay if KP is still available? We can try prying one of Dedmon, Harkless, Nicholson, and Dedmon and additionally passing on Calderon to them.

Yea would be a great move if this could happen. Anyone have any past trade history on moving up one pick at the top of an NBA draft?

One recent one I remember was in 2008:
Timberwolves receive: Kevin Love (so pick 5), Mike Miller (he was coming off a 16 ppg, 50, 40 season and in his prime), Brian Cardinal, and Jason Collins

Grizzlies receive: OJ Mayo (so pick 3), Antoine Walker, Marko Jaric, and Greg Buckner

So essentially the Wolves received a very solid veteran to move back 2 spots. Hopefully they can trade 1 of their solid young players + the pick to move a spot.

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA 16s16 seconds ago
Sources say 76ers and Blazers have discussed a deal that would give Philly #23 pick in exchange for #35 and #37 picks (and possibly more).

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA 18s18 seconds ago
League sources say Pacers and Hawks had exploratory talks about swapping #11 pick and #15 pick. I'm not sure what else would be included.

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA 22s23 seconds ago
I've heard Celtics, Blazers, Bucks, Hawks are considering moving up. Pelicans may try to buy first-rounder. Clippers want to acquire a pick.

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA 34s35 seconds ago
Thunder may try to move up for someone specific, or they may move down if the guys they want are off the board by #14. Depends what happens.

In comment 12339114 Lopes1984 said:

Quote:

Play the 3. You can't start those two as your 4 and 5, you would get killed inside and have no rim protection. At this point with the way the league is I think Melo is much better suited to play the 4 than the 3. You can get away with him guarding guys like Love or Bosh and other stretch 4s. When he plays the 3 you start getting into match ups with guys like Lebron, Paul George, etc that are much tougher for him. Ideally they would be able to get DeAndre Jordan and play him next to Melo and you're actually in decent shape up front defensively. It gives them so much more flexibility when figuring out the rest of the roster because you are off to a much better start defensively. Good luck attracting Jordan here though.

Playing Melo primarily at the 4 is asking to shorten his shelf life. Lebron is at his best playing the 4 but there are very big reasons why he does not play there all of the time. He's going to wear down against the bigger PFs. The Knicks had a defense with Melo at the 3 before. Granted, they had Tyson Chandler, but if the backcourt was Mudiay and Galloway, its safe to say the perimeter defense would be stronger than it was 3 years ago.

Plus, I don't think Monroe is as bad as STAT on defense.

In comment 12339146 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA 34s35 seconds ago Thunder may try to move up for someone specific, or they may move down if the guys they want are off the board by #14. Depends what happens.

How is this newsworthy?

people don't think Phil did a great job thus far is because of the Chandler trade. I highly doubt the Knicks could have gotten more for Chandler. He was coming off an injuury riddled off year and he was/is making a lot of money. We got 2 2nd round picks and Calderon. That's not nothing even if Calderon is dead weight. Teams don't just give away 2nd rounders even if the Knicks did for 2 decades.

So explain to me what Phil could have done differently if they couldn't get anything else for Chandler? Please...I am all ears. The Knicks had literally NO way of acquiring any legit talent this last year. None. They had no money. No picks and no real tradeable assets outside of Chandler.

If Donnie Walsh did a great job before that summer of Stat, and EVERYONE in the media said he did, then JAckson did an even better job because he only traded away one valuable player and he got actual assets in return. Walsh dumped Zach and Crawford for nothing and then drafted a slob and signed a broken down Stat for 100 million. Jackson hasn't had a real chance to make his mark here...not in the least... but he has set the team up for success. That cannot be denied.

WTF was Phil supposed to do the last year? Tell his team to lose every game the last week and hope for more lottery luck?

I totally agree with you.

If you wanted to play devil's advocate looking back on the past, you could say he could've held on to Tyson until mid-season and trade with a team that was looking for a rim protector, like the Cavs did with Mozgov.

Even then is stretching it. Chandler was an expiring at tons of money and I don't see how much more we could've gotten. Its a stretch to say the Cavs would've given up a future 1st for him.

And the Calderon trade isn't really hurting us this year. We have enough money to sign Monroe and any of the defensive bigs in free agency. There aren't really any SGs that will be receiving offers at fair value. Afflalo, Mathews, etc. will all be vastly overpaid. You could argue that Galloway had a better season than Afflalo did, and he will be making 1/10 as much as Afflalo and is 7 years younger.

was 1998: #4 (A. Jamison) for #5 (V. Carter) plus cash. I.e. the return will be tiny in all likelihood

Marbury for Allen and a future first.
Link - ( New Window )

so everyone complaining about them only finishing 2nd worst, would likely be even more pissed with them picking #7-8.

My problem with what Phil did last year was that he made premature trades for cap space. I dont think we're getting a free agent haul. Maybe Monroe plus debris. I'd love to be wrong but I dont think we're getting a second great piece (LA, Gasol, one of the Greens etc.).

So I hated using assets to pair with "bad" contracts (I also thought we were trading guys at their lowest value). Instead of using Shump to move JR, use Shump to get a shitty #1 pick. Dont do the Chandler trade which actually added 2015 salary (I believe). Just eat the shit contracts.

yea, it's fair to say maybe we should have held on to Chandler and tried to trade him for more as the season progressed but even if we get a future first, it's obviously going to be a late first. Is a late first better than two seconds? No. And I would bet that Chandler was borderline toxic here the last year or so...Jax wanted to get him out.

The Knicks did nothing but set themselves up for the future these last 12 months. They tanked as well as any of us could have hoped. They didn't waste Melo at all and shut him down. They got young talent for Chandler and they got rid of JR at the cost of dumping Shump with him. Both players fucking suck.

So please...explain to me this grand master plan that Phil could have conjured up that would have had the Knicks in better shape right now.

In comment 12339191 giants#1 said:

Quote:

so everyone complaining about them only finishing 2nd worst, would likely be even more pissed with them picking #7-8.

IMO Tyson Chandler could have returned a ton at the deadline.

flipping Elfrid Payton for Dario Saric.

Sending Calderon over for Nicholson, who got like 12 minutes a game, is not unreasonable in my opinion. Especially since the difference between KP and Mudiay looks to be a huge difference given Orlando's current players. Plus, they could use a backup PG at this point, so calderon is not a terrible fit.

that's fair...we could have stayed away from Calderon.

Shump is garbage. He's a decent on the ball defensive player that can't finish, can't play away from the ball, doesn't see the court and at best is an erratic shooter.

If Calderon hurts this team's chances at signing big player then we will revisit that trade. I doubt it does.

image: http://walterfootball.com/nba/knicks.gif

New York Knicks: Kristaps Porzingis, C, Latvia, 7-2, 1995
image: http://walterfootball.com/college/Latvia_logo.gif


Porzingis' window seems to be second-fifth and his stock seems to be especially hot right now thanks to recent work outs and he could go as high as #2 to the Lakers. The Latvian is a versatile, athletic big man and the Knicks need all sorts of help in their frontcourt which is why he gets the nod over Emmanuel Mudiay.

Read more at http://walterfootball.com/nbadraft2015mock.php#l3xXvDuOhJSxm497.99

would it cost to steal O'Quinn from Orlando? I wonder.

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA 1m1 minute ago
Still hearing that moving back is possibility for Knicks. Source says they haven't fallen in love with anyone at 4 and are weighing options.

In comment 12339212 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

would it cost to steal O'Quinn from Orlando? I wonder.

Kinda sucks, if he was under contract I think it would've been ideal to ask for him in a trade back. If I had to put a # on him to safely take him away from Orlando, it would be upwards of $8 million a year. If we were to offer it Day 1 of free agency I think we would have a good shot because they can't tie up there money in O'quinn when a team might come and offer a max to Tobias Harris.

just throwing out a ton of crap to maybe hit on one of them...

team may move up, but may move down, but may stay put... they have a target... they may take them... blah blah

is a local kid who has a Ewing/Oakley-Knicks era game to him. Only 25 years old.

Philadunkia @philadunkia
ICYMI: @ryenarussillo just mentioned that his sources say #Sixers are asking around bout Mudiay

he can hit that wide open 3 at a consistent rate. Good rim protection skills. They used him to mitigate Vucevic's defensive flaws, and I dont think Monroe is nearly as bad as Vucevic on that end.

some reason I think the Knicks are going to end up with the guy (I believe) they want the most of the "realistic" names... I think Russell is a Knick at 4.

Hoops Rumors ‏@HoopsRumors 13s13 seconds ago
Knicks among teams on DeMarcus Cousins' wish list, per @KBergCBS:

trade back 1 spot to dump Calderon and get, lets say Nicholson, offer Monroe 4 for $60, O'Quinn 4 for $32, that gives us, what, about $10 million in available cap space?

I would go after a guy like Jae Crowder as a 3 and D specialist or maybe get another backup center like Biyombo or Koufos. If we came away with three 25 year-old starting caliber players I would give Phil an A+ this offseason.

I just dont have the same goals as him. He sees Melo on the team and father time creeping up and is looking to take his shot sooner rather than later.

Im in it for the long haul. Not having that 2016 #1 hurts like hell, but I'd still go into full rebuild. Trade Melo if you can get a young player and a pick (work especially hard to involve DEN and get back our pick). Sign a bunch of UFAs this year without regard to fit -- just get younger guys on favorable deals. Trade them when the cap goes up or keep them around while we rebuild; doesnt matter. Use the next 2 drafts to bring in some talent, and bide time for bigger and better free agent scores. Basically, use the Rockets as a model except with a top 4 pick to boot.

which is probably unrealistic but could be interesting is 3 team deal.

Knicks receive Bledsoe and 8th pick
Suns receive 4th pick
Pistons receive 13, THJ, cash, and a Suns 2nd rounder

--

That's probably way too much for the Suns to give but if this works out the Knicks could maybe draft WCS at 8. If they sign Monroe you could have a lineup of.

PG: Bledsoe, Calderon, some 3rd string PG
SG: Galloway, Thannis
SF: Melo, Early
PF: Monroe Acy
C: WCS

Bench would be absolutely horrendous but I think the starters would complement one another pretty well.

In comment 12339251 kash94 said:

Quote:

which is probably unrealistic but could be interesting is 3 team deal. Knicks receive Bledsoe and 8th pick Suns receive 4th pick Pistons receive 13, THJ, cash, and a Suns 2nd rounder -- That's probably way too much for the Suns to give but if this works out the Knicks could maybe draft WCS at 8. If they sign Monroe you could have a lineup of. PG: Bledsoe, Calderon, some 3rd string PG SG: Galloway, Thannis SF: Melo, Early PF: Monroe Acy C: WCS Bench would be absolutely horrendous but I think the starters would complement one another pretty well.

Sorry mean't to say that's not enough for the Pistons to move back to 13 not that it's too much for the Suns to give up.

is close with Melo but we just don't have the ammo (or close to it). What's the best we can offer? #4, 2017 1st round pick, THjr and Galloway?

I don't ever remember a 3 team trade that crazy where everyone plays musical chairs with that pick. The Knicks would be saying "we wanna move back, but not really that far back, but we want this guy, and we can offer you this highly limited SG, and maybe Phoenix can give you a 2nd rounder". Not going to happen.

In comment 12339243 Anakim said:

Quote:

Hoops Rumors ‏@HoopsRumors 13s13 seconds ago Knicks among teams on DeMarcus Cousins' wish list, per @KBergCBS:

i would love to believe it but knicks do not have anything close to acquire cousins

He is three years from FA so he has zero leverage. Even if a team didn't think he would resign with them they could have him for a couple seasons then trade him. Knicks def can't get in the convo.

In comment 12339157 djm said:

Quote:

people don't think Phil did a great job thus far is because of the Chandler trade. I highly doubt the Knicks could have gotten more for Chandler. He was coming off an injuury riddled off year and he was/is making a lot of money. We got 2 2nd round picks and Calderon. That's not nothing even if Calderon is dead weight. Teams don't just give away 2nd rounders even if the Knicks did for 2 decades. So explain to me what Phil could have done differently if they couldn't get anything else for Chandler? Please...I am all ears. The Knicks had literally NO way of acquiring any legit talent this last year. None. They had no money. No picks and no real tradeable assets outside of Chandler. If Donnie Walsh did a great job before that summer of Stat, and EVERYONE in the media said he did, then JAckson did an even better job because he only traded away one valuable player and he got actual assets in return. Walsh dumped Zach and Crawford for nothing and then drafted a slob and signed a broken down Stat for 100 million. Jackson hasn't had a real chance to make his mark here...not in the least... but he has set the team up for success. That cannot be denied. WTF was Phil supposed to do the last year? Tell his team to lose every game the last week and hope for more lottery luck?

u

2 2nd rounders, Calderon AND Larkin (18th pick in the 1st round)... so Phil got a decent return for a turd and overrated player in Chandler.

a good defender? His +/- and efficiency is ridiculous and hes athletic, long-armed, and racks up blocks.

In comment 12339265 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

is close with Melo but we just don't have the ammo (or close to it). What's the best we can offer? #4, 2017 1st round pick, THjr and Galloway?

And Calderon, lol.

and some how he lasts until 4. Then after the draft they can build a package around Russell, 2017 1st rounder + for Cousins.

I'm tired of not having picks and guys with Cousins attitude. I think he's great and all, and I may be in the minority but I think he is a bit overrated. He was putting up numbers on a bad team, as indicated by his low FG%. For around 40% of his field goal attempts being jump shots he is not very good at hitting them.

If we land Cousins that means we are trying to win-now with Melo. So that means we will make signings to build a contending team in the 2-3 window Cousins and Melo share together and not make moves to create a young core. By the time Melo is 34-35, Cousins will be entering his 30s and we will be doing the same fucking thing with Cousins.

Just take the damn pick, don't trade any more future picks, sign young, smart players like Monroe, and move the fuck on.

In comment 12339265 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

is close with Melo but we just don't have the ammo (or close to it). What's the best we can offer? #4, 2017 1st round pick, THjr and Galloway?

Knicks can't trade the 4th pick this year since they dont have one in 2016

In comment 12339157 djm said:

Quote:

people don't think Phil did a great job thus far is because of the Chandler trade. I highly doubt the Knicks could have gotten more for Chandler. He was coming off an injuury riddled off year and he was/is making a lot of money. We got 2 2nd round picks and Calderon. That's not nothing even if Calderon is dead weight. Teams don't just give away 2nd rounders even if the Knicks did for 2 decades. So explain to me what Phil could have done differently if they couldn't get anything else for Chandler? Please...I am all ears. The Knicks had literally NO way of acquiring any legit talent this last year. None. They had no money. No picks and no real tradeable assets outside of Chandler. If Donnie Walsh did a great job before that summer of Stat, and EVERYONE in the media said he did, then JAckson did an even better job because he only traded away one valuable player and he got actual assets in return. Walsh dumped Zach and Crawford for nothing and then drafted a slob and signed a broken down Stat for 100 million. Jackson hasn't had a real chance to make his mark here...not in the least... but he has set the team up for success. That cannot be denied. WTF was Phil supposed to do the last year? Tell his team to lose every game the last week and hope for more lottery luck?

You mean like the 2nd rounder Phil gave up in the Travis Outlaw trade?

In comment 12339333 CromartiesKid21 said:

Quote:

In comment 12339265 DanMetroMan said: Quote: is close with Melo but we just don't have the ammo (or close to it). What's the best we can offer? #4, 2017 1st round pick, THjr and Galloway? Knicks can't trade the 4th pick this year since they dont have one in 2016

Well they could draft a player and trade them later.

stupid move we all ignore

"On October 27, 2014, Outlaw was traded, along with a 2019 second-round draft selection and the option exchange 2018 second-round draft selections, to the Philadelphia 76ers in exchange for Arnett Moultrie.[10] "

That's how Early was drafted.

In comment 12339348 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

That's how Early was drafted.

I was just told in an above post that people no longer give them away. How can it go both ways?

The Knicks gave away the 2nd because they wanted to shed salary. The Mavs gave up two seconds and 2 players to acquire Chandler.

Like I said, the Knicks weren't turning chicken shit into chicken salad this last calendar year. Phil is officially on the clock as we speak. IF this team isn't showing progress by Christmas or at least flashing some serious young talent, then get on Phil. Until then it's premature.

In comment 12339360 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 12339348 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: That's how Early was drafted. I was just told in an above post that people no longer give them away. How can it go both ways?

Dan I was making a point. You can deflect all you want but you started this whole debate by shitting on Phil's statement that he did a great job shedding salary.

And no, team's don't just give picks away. Don't act stupid.

In comment 12339367 djm said:

Quote:

The Knicks gave away the 2nd because they wanted to shed salary. The Mavs gave up two seconds and 2 players to acquire Chandler. Like I said, the Knicks weren't turning chicken shit into chicken salad this last calendar year. Phil is officially on the clock as we speak. IF this team isn't showing progress by Christmas or at least flashing some serious young talent, then get on Phil. Until then it's premature.

Isn't Outlaw a FA now? How did this deal him the Knicks? Unless I'm reading his contract wrong we gave up a 2nd rounder to rid ourselves of a guy who was going to be a FA anyway, Mills claimed it was because we liked... Travis Wear. Very few on here are trashing Phil Jackson at this point but it's 100% fair to say he hasn't done much in the positive either.

you can honestly deep down say you believe Phil Jackson has been "impressive" or "excellent" to this point? I think you would be 100% in the minority. Every Knicks fan I speak to says "lets wait and see", I've yet to see one prior to you who has been "impressed", I'm not being snarky. I don't even see the most homerific Knicks fans on BBI saying they are "impressed".

if you're getting 2nd rounders back then you either gave up a player of value or you took on a player with too much salary or some combo of both. Chandler was a little bit of both in my view. Solid player but getting older and making a lot of money. That's why he didn't net us more in return. Mosgov isn't the player Chandler is but he's younger and cheaper. That's why he fetched more.

Whatever...it's like watching a monkey fuck a football with this debate. ONe I seem to be having with myself. Carry on with your angst ridden speculation. It's certainly entertaining.

In comment 12339374 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

you can honestly deep down say you believe Phil Jackson has been "impressive" or "excellent" to this point? I think you would be 100% in the minority. Every Knicks fan I speak to says "lets wait and see", I've yet to see one prior to you who has been "impressed", I'm not being snarky. I don't even see the most homerific Knicks fans on BBI saying they are "impressed".

No I don't think he's been excellent but I don't think he's done anything wrong either. And I don't really give a crap if Phil answers a loaded question from the media by saying he did an excellent job. That's just lip service of course the guy is gonna say that. You took the guy to task for responding with a BS answer to a BS question. That's kind of weak.

I wasn't saying Dan I was saying everyone...lol

FWIW, Winslow is on FAN as we speak....

I'll try and transcribe:

-Worked out last friday--no more workouts...kind of stressful but fun...(who cares)

-Rooted for the Rockets as a kid (who cares)

-likes to travel (who cares)

-
i'm already bored...

have nothing against Phil Jackson and I'm happy they hired him. I just haven't seen anything "impressive" yet and quite honestly his comments come off as pretty egotastic. He rips teams shooting the 3 ball when I believe the final 4 teams alive all were top 4 in 3 point attempts, he says the modern offense sucks etc. His BFF Rosen says things like we need a Kaminsky type for the offensve to work, he apparently loves Lyles. I just want some reason to believe that Phil Jackson is some genius in talent evaluation and roster construction. He's upset players care about their "brand"? It's 2015, deal with it.

quite a few teams have inquired into Royce White, one would think in a perfect would he'd be absolutely PERFECT in the triangle.

Per USA Today, "We have zero interest in moving Cousins, so I don't know where that's coming from," Ranadive said when asked about an ESPN.com report in which a Kings-Los Angeles Lakers-Orlando Magic trade scenario was discussed. "But if you like, you should talk to (Kings vice president of basketball and franchise operations) Vlade (Divac), because I know Vlade feels exactly the same way. And I'm deferring to Vlade on everything. We have no interest in moving him. From my perspective, it's really simple: we feel that he's a one-of-a-kind player, and we have a group of players right now and we're going to build on it."

-roommates with "G Money"--(the dude that carried Duke down the stretch in the final game, name escapes me)

-the entire process is crazy...working out for different teams...flying here and there...crazy process. Teams probe every way imaginable

-Winslow was never planning on going one and done..things obviously changed and it was time to declare

-feels his game is all about versatility - was asked to do a lot on the court despite playing with talented players

-doesn't know where he's gonna be drafted. No idea...

-no preference

it's still going but nothing major is being said...

worked out Joshua Smith. He's not projected to be drafted but MASSIVE body, upside. Why not?

apparently think Phil may be high on Looney if we trade for a later lotto pick using #4

In comment 12339391 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

have nothing against Phil Jackson and I'm happy they hired him. I just haven't seen anything "impressive" yet and quite honestly his comments come off as pretty egotastic. He rips teams shooting the 3 ball when I believe the final 4 teams alive all were top 4 in 3 point attempts, he says the modern offense sucks etc. His BFF Rosen says things like we need a Kaminsky type for the offensve to work, he apparently loves Lyles. I just want some reason to believe that Phil Jackson is some genius in talent evaluation and roster construction. He's upset players care about their "brand"? It's 2015, deal with it.

Fair enough...let's just hope he gets these next 5 months right. I never liked the guy either...I do think he's patient enough to get the Knicks right...but time will tell..

In comment 12339360 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 12339348 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: That's how Early was drafted. I was just told in an above post that people no longer give them away. How can it go both ways?

I don't know how to answer your question, but they got two second round picks as part of what they got from trading Chandler and Felton. And haven't 2nd round picks been straight up bought with cash?

met with Phil. Watched vid of himself...discussed triangle shit a little bit but nothing crazy. Basic stuff...loves playing at MSG...etc.etc..

of Smith
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 12339404 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

worked out Joshua Smith. He's not projected to be drafted but MASSIVE body, upside. Why not?

I'm a current Georgetown student so this is pretty interesting to me. Just to give you an overview.

Strenghts:
-Massive massive body and frame
-Very solid post game with good footwork and touch. One of the more efficient players in college in this regard.
-Pretty decent passer for a guy of his size. Won't make flashy passes but is definitely above average. Georgetown big men are often designed plays which require them to pass.
-Was a 5 star recruit coming out of HS. At this point doesn't make a difference really but worth throwing that in there.
-Played against good competition in the big east.
-His production numbers per minute were excellent. Almost 20 ppg on over 60% shooting.

Weaknesses:
-Conditioning a major issue. Lost like 20 lbs before his senior year but Georgetown had to pull him out of games because he couldn't run up and down the court a lot
-Poor defender
-Poor shotblocker
-Not a great rebounder. Had a few games where he'd literally have 2-3 rebounders which is not great considering his size and position
-No outside shot at all

In terms of player comparisons I would think of Eddy Curry in the sense that he's a very talented player offensively but has little else to offer.

For a team with 0 bigs he'd be a good camp invite. I can see why Phil may be interested in him as he's a big who can post up and pass but he's not more then a bench player; certainly won't go drafted.

he had significant foul trouble in a few games.

he's had some issues with academics and off the court stuff as he was suspended for a season. He apparently skipped one of his finals which caused him to fail the class and get the suspension lol.

Not sure how big a deal this is but worth mentioning I think.

In comment 12339393 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

quite a few teams have inquired into Royce White, one would think in a perfect would he'd be absolutely PERFECT in the triangle.

Heh, what contract would you give that guy?

Absolutely, if you mean second rounders past the first 10 or so, or as part of a trade where you give up something of value in return.

Teams LOVE the top of the second round, because you get players that may end up as good as the back of the first round, but with no guaranteed cash involved. People have been
talking for years about the Knicks buying second round picks, but we virtually never have been able to get one at the top of the second for cash, only as part of a trade. And it wasn't a matter of being cheap--we paid pretty well for low second round picks, several times.

In comment 12339324 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

I'm tired of not having picks and guys with Cousins attitude. I think he's great and all, and I may be in the minority but I think he is a bit overrated. He was putting up numbers on a bad team, as indicated by his low FG%. For around 40% of his field goal attempts being jump shots he is not very good at hitting them.

For the record I agree with you but wasn't this what everyone was going crazy over Lebron in the finals?

In comment 12339451 BeerFridge said:

Quote:

In comment 12339393 DanMetroMan said: Quote: quite a few teams have inquired into Royce White, one would think in a perfect would he'd be absolutely PERFECT in the triangle. Heh, what contract would you give that guy?

Non-guarantee deal with a promise of a chance to get minutes if he keeps his head on straight.

In comment 12339428 kash94 said:

Quote:

In comment 12339404 DanMetroMan said: Quote: worked out Joshua Smith. He's not projected to be drafted but MASSIVE body, upside. Why not? I'm a current Georgetown student so this is pretty interesting to me. Just to give you an overview. Strenghts: -Massive massive body and frame -Very solid post game with good footwork and touch. One of the more efficient players in college in this regard. -Pretty decent passer for a guy of his size. Won't make flashy passes but is definitely above average. Georgetown big men are often designed plays which require them to pass. -Was a 5 star recruit coming out of HS. At this point doesn't make a difference really but worth throwing that in there. -Played against good competition in the big east. -His production numbers per minute were excellent. Almost 20 ppg on over 60% shooting. Weaknesses: -Conditioning a major issue. Lost like 20 lbs before his senior year but Georgetown had to pull him out of games because he couldn't run up and down the court a lot -Poor defender -Poor shotblocker -Not a great rebounder. Had a few games where he'd literally have 2-3 rebounders which is not great considering his size and position -No outside shot at all In terms of player comparisons I would think of Eddy Curry in the sense that he's a very talented player offensively but has little else to offer. For a team with 0 bigs he'd be a good camp invite. I can see why Phil may be interested in him as he's a big who can post up and pass but he's not more then a bench player; certainly won't go drafted.

Sounds worthy of a summer league invite based on size/some offensive ablity alone. I've read his post game is above average,

He wouldn't fly? If he hasn't overcome that then signing him is pointless.

In comment 12339472 Italianju said:

Quote:

He wouldn't fly? If he hasn't overcome that then signing him is pointless.

Well considering a "few" teams are talking to him one has to assume there is some remedy no?

Royce White is on the verge of making an NBA comeback.

Drafted 16th overall in 2012 by the Houston Rockets, the 24-year-old has played in just three regular-season tilts to date. He's spent the last three years bouncing around, going from Houston to the Philadelphia 76ers to the Sacramento Kings.

As USA Today's Sam Amick noted back in February 2014, he "struggled to adjust to the NBA lifestyle," in large part because he suffers from an anxiety disorder. But White isn't thinking about that now. He's ready to return.

"I don't even believe in that, in case it doesn't work out," he said of his return, per KSTP.com. "It's gonna work out, it's gonna work out."

It's unlikely that White lands a prominent role anywhere. But teams will always make room for a versatile forward with first-round upside. The best fits will be squads that can capitalize on his skill set and surround him with the right leadership.

Rumors will play a factor in determining White's best potential destinations. Past ties to coaches and play styles will count heavily as well.

Potential playing time matters, but it's not everything. White needs to be on a good team that can be patient and bring him along slowly as he tries to make up for three seasons' worth of lost time.

considered the favorites due to Hoiberg

Shams Charania @ShamsCharania
Bulls, Pelicans emerging as suitors for Royce White's NBA comeback in July, sources tell RealGM. Former 16th pick is deciding among several.

That issue. Although it doesn't sound like we are a favorite.

.

I'm not sure I understand the Lebron comparison. Are you talking about his jump shot?

I was simply saying Cousins is too in love with the jump shot for never being able to hit it consistently when he has good face up, post, and passing skills. Doesn't have any business shooting it that much, unlike Lebron, who had no teammates.

Cousins just doesn't translate to winning too many games on his own. I think if they were to get a solid defensive presence like WCS he could thrive. I just do not see Cousins as the type of player to carry a team to the playoffs let alone win. He could be very successful in a great team dynamic, but the jury is still out on what that dynamic specifically is. I'm sure George Karl can figure something out if he chooses to keep him, but I'm not sure he wants to. But what I am saying is I do not want the Knicks to be the laboratory to figure out how Cousins can fit into a winning culture, because as history indicates, those experiments tend to fail in NY.

He was tearing up the D-league for what it is worth. If he is over his anxiety issues I think he'll end up as a starter somewhere in a few years.

You hope and pray that Mudiay or Porzingis would be as good as Boogie Cousins - there's a good chance they won't and a slim chance they'd be better. And he's so damn entertaining. Melo would be by far the best player he's every played with and in the East he would be a true force.

I'd totally trade the #4 for Boogie in a freakin' heart beat.

In comment 12339494 BeerFridge said:

Quote:

You hope and pray that Mudiay or Porzingis would be as good as Boogie Cousins - there's a good chance they won't and a slim chance they'd be better. And he's so damn entertaining. Melo would be by far the best player he's every played with and in the East he would be a true force. I'd totally trade the #4 for Boogie in a freakin' heart beat.

If it was just this years 1st rounder I would do it. But if they aren't accepting the Lakers #2 and Randle that clearly wouldn't cut it. I wouldn't trade the 2017 first, Galloway, THJR, Early, etc, etc. in order to get him.

In comment 12339496 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

In comment 12339494 BeerFridge said: Quote: You hope and pray that Mudiay or Porzingis would be as good as Boogie Cousins - there's a good chance they won't and a slim chance they'd be better. And he's so damn entertaining. Melo would be by far the best player he's every played with and in the East he would be a true force. I'd totally trade the #4 for Boogie in a freakin' heart beat. If it was just this years 1st rounder I would do it. But if they aren't accepting the Lakers #2 and Randle that clearly wouldn't cut it. I wouldn't trade the 2017 first, Galloway, THJR, Early, etc, etc. in order to get him.

I would. Galloway, THJR, Early are spare parts and with Cousins and Melo (in the East), it's unlikely the 2017 first is worth much.

The guy just got that job off the ESPN couch, he's something like 80-140 lifetime in the playoffs, and is a walking first round exit, and all he does is alienate all stars and want to dictate the roster everywhere he goes.

In comment 12339240 DanMetroMan said:

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some reason I think the Knicks are going to end up with the guy (I believe) they want the most of the "realistic" names... I think Russell is a Knick at 4.

From your lips to Phil's basketball god's ears.

A 5 seed team!! And get booted in he first round.

is hilarious since that's the one thing that I think you can really rip MJ for getting away with.

In comment 12339468 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 12339428 kash94 said: Quote: In comment 12339404 DanMetroMan said: Quote: worked out Joshua Smith. He's not projected to be drafted but MASSIVE body, upside. Why not? I'm a current Georgetown student so this is pretty interesting to me. Just to give you an overview. Strenghts: -Massive massive body and frame -Very solid post game with good footwork and touch. One of the more efficient players in college in this regard. -Pretty decent passer for a guy of his size. Won't make flashy passes but is definitely above average. Georgetown big men are often designed plays which require them to pass. -Was a 5 star recruit coming out of HS. At this point doesn't make a difference really but worth throwing that in there. -Played against good competition in the big east. -His production numbers per minute were excellent. Almost 20 ppg on over 60% shooting. Weaknesses: -Conditioning a major issue. Lost like 20 lbs before his senior year but Georgetown had to pull him out of games because he couldn't run up and down the court a lot -Poor defender -Poor shotblocker -Not a great rebounder. Had a few games where he'd literally have 2-3 rebounders which is not great considering his size and position -No outside shot at all In terms of player comparisons I would think of Eddy Curry in the sense that he's a very talented player offensively but has little else to offer. For a team with 0 bigs he'd be a good camp invite. I can see why Phil may be interested in him as he's a big who can post up and pass but he's not more then a bench player; certainly won't go drafted. Sounds worthy of a summer league invite based on size/some offensive ablity alone. I've read his post game is above average,

Post game is tremendous. He's not just strong - he has actual skills. It's the rest of the game that is lacking.

that needs a coach to tear into the ownership its the Kings. Its hard to back anything that team does.

The owner is a straight wacko. One of the worst moves he made was not one of his terrible basketball decisions, but to sign Sim Bhullar as the first Indian player to make a statement. The dude doesn't deserve to play in the D-League despite being 7'6". It was a pathetic and embarrassing move.

about Bhullar but the guy's NBDL performance was legitimately great.

Vivek is definitely a very annoying owner so far though. I feel for the Kings fans after dealing with the idiot Maloofs forever.

he's out of the league already if that says anything about him. If Hasheem Thabeet couldn't make it in the league there's no way an overweight 350 pound, unathletic guy who can't run down a court more than once at a time has any business playing in the NBA.

In comment 12339562 giantsfan44ab said:

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he's out of the league already if that says anything about him. If Hasheem Thabeet couldn't make it in the league there's no way an overweight 350 pound, unathletic guy who can't run down a court more than once at a time has any business playing in the NBA.

I mean... the court is the same length in the NBDL in the NBA, and Bhullar's team played at an insanely fast pace (they scored 130 points per game). I don't doubt that his conditioning wasn't NBA-caliber, but if his conditioning was really -that- bad he wouldn't be able to survive in the D-League playing at the Bighorns' pace.

I don't think Bhullar failed because he's out of shape, I think he failed because he's not a good enough basketball player. The D-League isn't a great league - the salaries aren't competitive with what fringe guys can get playing overseas - but D-League backcourts are on the whole much better and deeper than D-League frontcourts.

says it should be Russell or bust for Knicks and if Russell is not there it is a failure...

He said it is a red flag since no one is talking about Mudiay...

Says he would take Winslow at 4 because he is the safest pick after Russell..

Says if Knicks do not get Russell it is like them missing on Curry

the Knicks should take stein at 4

If not im happy with mudiay

Unfortunately knowing the knicks they dont draft any of the top 4 and this whole season was worth absolutely nothing

actually reminds me of Joe Johnson quite a bit.

I like Hahn, but what can the Knicks do to prevent LA or Philly from taking Russell? Should they just pack up and go home once he's picked ahead of them? Russell's been my guy all year, but it'll take a miracle at this point.

I was one of the only people who wanted him a few weeks ago. Mudiay was all the rage.

In comment 12339581 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

I was one of the only people who wanted him a few weeks ago. Mudiay was all the rage.

My concern with Russell is and was his inability to defend at a high level. I also just think he's kind of a dick.

I think Russell is going to be a better long range shooter and passer.

said the party line that seems to be coming together today- they are desperate for Russel, if not him they are looking to trade out of the pick. Doesn't think they will be able to trade it though. When asked for his gut feeling he said they keep the pick and that they like Winslow's intangibles, Mudiay's athleticism, and then there is always WCS. Said one of them will be a Knick.

In comment 12339583 Ash_3 said:

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I think Russell is going to be a better long range shooter and passer.

Johnson was both a phenomenal shooter and passer. He's a career .371 from 3 and averages over 4 assists despite playing off the ball.

I don't know if Mudiay really has that because I obviously haven't seen much of him. I like the athleticism Mudiay has and he'll probably be better defensively but I think Russell is going to be the goods in the offensive end and I think he'll be passable defensively.

In comment 12339579 Jon in NYC said:

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actually reminds me of Joe Johnson quite a bit.

That's one of the better ones I've heard. I think Russell has better PG skills and is a bit more shifter and creative whereas Johnson bullies smaller guys on the block. But I like that one more than Harden.

It's puzzling that Russell and Winslow have been both been drawing James Harden comparisons and neither are similar to each other in any way.

are those bonkers passes. If he really pans out he could be the sort of player that guys want to team up with. Though on the downside he could be a huge dick.

Im still not very comfortable with him because of defensive concerns. I think I still prefer Mudiay.

Prefer Mudiay but I'm getting a strong feeling it's going Towns, Okafor, Zinger or Mudiay and Russell. I won't be unhappy. I have him 5th on my "board" so I can't be mad at 4

the Knicks have had no leaks about who they are interested in...so now all of sudden everyone knows the Knicks love russell? seems fishy to me...

Also really Berman? so the Knicks could trade out but you dont think they will, so they may draft winslow Mudiay or stein...umm really how is that news?

Marc Stein ‏@ESPNSteinLine 2m2 minutes ago
ESPN sources say Nets continue to explore trade possibilities with their Team USA center Mason Plumlee in advance of Thursday's NBA Draft

But i am now seeing porzingis linked to them any truth to that or is it just smoke

shooter. He is not a phenomenal shooter. That's gross exaggeration.

In comment 12339598 Anakim said:

Quote:

Marc Stein ‏@ESPNSteinLine 2m2 minutes ago ESPN sources say Nets continue to explore trade possibilities with their Team USA center Mason Plumlee in advance of Thursday's NBA Draft

pls do he stinks

at Team USA center.

Easy to make the team when you played in college for the coach of the team and he wants to help his recruiting.

In comment 12339601 ADeP7 said:

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But i am now seeing porzingis linked to them any truth to that or is it just smoke

This week everything is smoke...you think teams are really leaking who they really want? the only team that can do that is Minnesota...

You notice which player is surprisingly quiet and very little hype?

the phone with Philly and see what it would take to move up to 3. I have a feeling that a lot of the talks linking Russell and Philly over the past few days have been meant to entice that exact move. It sucks to have to give up a guy or a pick to do it, but if Jackson feels that strongly about Russell compared to the other options that would be available then you just have to pull the trigger on a move up.

In comment 12339613 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 12339601 ADeP7 said: Quote: But i am now seeing porzingis linked to them any truth to that or is it just smoke This week everything is smoke...you think teams are really leaking who they really want? the only team that can do that is Minnesota... You notice which player is surprisingly quiet and very little hype?

I figure everything is smoke this week but it makes me wonder where mudiay falls
I hope he doesn't get past the Knicks but I'm really wondering is Russell the top choice for the Knicks
Is the 76ers top choice actually mudiay and they are just not letting leak

when it comes to Mudiay but it gets hard when you see all these reports about the Knicks trading down, or watning Porzingis or Winslow...

In comment 12339624 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

when it comes to Mudiay but it gets hard when you see all these reports about the Knicks trading down, or watning Porzingis or Winslow...

I've seen a couple of posts about it but I never really saw what your info was, can you post your knowledge of the situation

I probably missed it but what was your scoop re: Mudiay? The Knicks plan on taking him?

In comment 12339626 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

I probably missed it but what was your scoop re: Mudiay? The Knicks plan on taking him?

basicaly if the top 3 goes as planned Knicks take Mudiay...

I am not sure if someone falls how the Knicks would proceed...

They have been in contact with Mudiay since his workout and it is the reason he has not worked out for teams outside the top 4...that part makes me think he has a promise from the Knicks BUT my source would not go into detail...

If the top 3 go KAT, Okafor and Russell (which unfortunately, I expect).. I do hope they take Mudiay.

My fears about Porzi are probably unwarranted but whatever. And I just don't feel like WCS is worth the 4th pick. If we're taking him it would have to be in a situation where we move down a few spots somehow.

Russell but I'd be more excited about Russell if that makes any sense. Like I'd probably go and buy Russell's jersey (granted from alibaba for like $10) just cuz of his game in college. He's a personality that you can get behind as a fan.

I don't think he's done anything to warrant being considered a "dick". He was known for his swagger but that doesn't make him a "dick". He's pretty down to earth. On an interview on the Ryen Russilo show someone brought up a scouts comment about being obliterated on times on defense and being apathetic on that end and Russell responded by saying that he's probably right. He said that he didn't care about playing defense until the end of the season where he finally understood that defense is heavy effort based. He understands where he is and is honest about it. Whether he makes strides is another story but he's not an asshole or anything.

And Joe Johnson was a pretty damn good shooter. For the amount of terrible shots he attempted he averaged about 38% 3 point shooting while attempting more than 5 a game.

Frank Isola ‏@FisolaNYDN 26m26 minutes ago
If the first three picks go Towns, Okafor and Russell, the feeling is that the Knicks will trade down. Trey Lyles? Frank Kaminsky?

We got 16 telling us what's really going to happen! Hello Mr. Minding!!!! Cause top 3 will be chalk!

Damn IPhone!!!!

Of what we could get in a trade down. Hard to decide how annoyed I'd be without knowing the return.

sit through that garbage season and dont even come away with a guy who has much potential, awesome

with Orlando, since they're sitting at 5 and highly doubtful that they will take Mudiay. Even if it's a small chip like a 2nd rounder or something. The Knicks should be flooding the press with Porzingis to the Knicks rumors as much as possible right now.

Michael Scotto ‏@MikeAScotto 44s45 seconds ago
Sources: Knicks are doubtful to trade the 4th pick outside the top 10 unless a good young player & an additional pick is offered. #NBADraft

is if you know Gasol or Aldridge is coming here in FA and you want to fill out the supporting cast around he and Melo. And we know that ain't happening. Still can't believe we have the fourth fucking pick.

In comment 12339707 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

Michael Scotto ‏@MikeAScotto 44s45 seconds ago Sources: Knicks are doubtful to trade the 4th pick outside the top 10 unless a good young player & an additional pick is offered. #NBADraft

Bledsoe...

I'd also take Lawson and WCS for no. 4.

for a Russell comp? Took a few years for dragic to get acclimated to the league relying on shiftiness and ball skills because of his lack of athleticism. Think Russell would be better right out of the gate too

lowry had s**t for a jump shot coming into the league, I think Mudiay has a better shot than a rookie lowry as well as better passing skills. And plus he's pretty ripped and Lowry has some chub to him.

HOT 97 ‏@HOT97 57m57 minutes ago
NBA: Demarcus Cousins Is Looking To Get Traded To The Knicks

Okafor is a defensive problem and by some accounts not a dedicated player. The second part of that scares me more than the first.

Russell projects poorly at the defensive end of the floor. There are also concerns he'll have trouble penetrating off the dribble to break down defenses. Is he better suited to play SG? Would that downgrade his value?

Mudiay? Guards need to be able to shoot the basketball. If opponents don't respect his perimeter game he'll have trouble capitalizing on his strengths.

Porzingis is going to take time and organizational patience to develop. Since when has that been the Knicks modus operandi? His body has a ways to go and no guarantees he's going to get there.

Winslow isn't nearly the positional fit that a big man or point guard would be for the roster. That's the big knock on him for me as a Knicks fan. He's the second safest prospect after Towns imo. There are few holes in his game. I like his athletic ability, transition game, makeup, basketball IQ and physique. He can score in a variety of ways as well as rebound and defend his position.

WCS hasn't proven he has a perimeter game in a competitive setting. Likewise for a big man he doesn't project as an elite defensive rebounder to date. Finally only the doctors know the risk attached to his surgically repaired foot.

The Knicks must pick their poison and hope they hit the lottery in real since the ping pong balls didn't exactly come up smelling of roses did they?

If the Knicks are willing to bide their time drafting Porzingis could have huge returns. I don't think they will. Barring that I'd target Winslow...maybe not at four but I'd find a way to get him.

So you know with a fair amount of confidence that Mudiay, a 19-year-old with great ball handling and leaping skills and size and athleticism won't be able to learn how to shoot?

And you know this how?

pick is looking at Zinger. Which leads me to believe that any pick other than Zinger is a lesser commodity that will better fit in the Melo window. Which is the short-sighted thinking that has kept the Knicks in a rut all these years.

There is no need for Phil to prove he is the smartest guy in the room. He's got the rings.

Just get the best talent.

A highly competitive and co-ordinated, non ball-dependent 7'1" gym rat with a natural stroke, experience at the highest non NBA level, and a 7'6" wingspan is both tough to trump and seems a pretty good complement to Melo.

In fact, with a little familiarity, I think he's a fairly perfect complement, with his ability to hit the three or cut to the hole without clogging the lane.

The fact that he isn't a good shooter now is enough to characterize his 'bust' factor as significant imo. I don't need more than that to make my case.

that the teams looking to trade up for Porz may view him as a better fit than anything else?

I agree with you to an extent, but what are the teams that have been legitimatey linked to him? The Magic? They are set at the 1-3 and the 5. Porz skill set is the perfect fit there because they need a guy that can potentially stretch the floor and maybe one day provide some rim protection. He slots in fine at the 4 between Vucevic and Harris/Gordon.

And I think we are at a point where PGs are becoming the QBs of the NBA. It's a requirement not a necessity. Mudiay has a legitimate chance to be the best PG in the East not named Irving or Wall given his skills and athleticism. His size is tremendous and is much much more fluid athlete than MCW, which provides a lot of versatility in the front court.

KP is my favorite player in the draft and I think he's going to do some nice things, but there's a huge risk with him. He certainly has an extremely high ceiling, but there's a chance that some of the things expected of him never fully come around. He's projected so high because of his potential on defense, but that's all it is right now: potential. He's had some major miscues on defense, including getting pushed around by guards in the post.

I ultimately think KP will be the ideal complimentary player in a situation with other great talents, like Oladipo, Harris and Vucevic. However, I think it's a stretch to believe he is going to be a superstar, ball dominant player that create offense for himself on a consistent basis. On the contrary, I think Mudiay can become a staple franchise PG for over a decade that you can build a franchise around and can rely on him to set the tone on both ends of the court.

In comment 12339795 Torrag said:

Quote:

The fact that he isn't a good shooter now is enough to characterize his 'bust' factor as significant imo. I don't need more than that to make my case.

Based off what? Form is the key when judging shooting more than anything else. He had good form, but he was inconsistent in terms of showing it on catch and shoot situation and with timing the release of the shot. Those things can be fixed, especially with NBA shooting coaches. He's not fucking Michael carter Williams or Rajon Rondo. He has touch, it's not like he was air balling shots left and right.

Says who? You? There are many examples of players who simply aren't efficient from the perimeter and never will be. You want to project from where he is as a shooter to how good he can be? There is a name for that. It's called guessing. As of now he isn't a good shooter. That classifies a key part of any guards game as a weakness and a risk. Which translates into potential bust. Those are the facts.

You didn't describe the downside of a bust. You described the downside of being a bigger, stronger, taller, more athletic, better rebounding, better defensive Rajon Rondo. And, of course, with a stroke that isn't nearly as bad at 19 as Rondo's was. And with, from every report I've seen, really impressive maturity and leadership skills for a kid of 19 playing overseas.

Yeah, some downside, but also the kind of upside you look for in a big athletic pg. I would probably prefer Russell because he can already shoot, but Mudiay appears to be on par or better in every other department.

A little risk of a bust, perhaps, but with the kind of upside Jackson probably needs to gamble on in the fourth slot, unless he can get a deal with someone who really wants Porzingas, or unless Russell or Okafor fall to 4.

In comment 12339798 Torrag said:

Quote:

Says who? You? There are many examples of players who simply aren't efficient from the perimeter and never will be. You want to project from where he is as a shooter to how good he can be? There is a name for that. It's called guessing. As of now he isn't a good shooter. That classifies a key part of any guards game as a weakness and a risk. Which translates into potential bust. Those are the facts.

Ok now I realize you are spewing arbitrary conjecture more than anything else. I'm assuming you haven't watched anything on his form being broken down. You say Winslow is the safest pick and probably think he's a lights out shooter because he shot 40% from 3 on 1 attempt per game. Winslow has much higher chance of turning into tony Allen than Mudiay has of turning into whatever "bust" you have in mind. Mudiay has a much more established offensive game than winslow.

And John Wall isn't a "bust" is he? It's been 4-5 years and he still hasn't become a league average shooter. So if that never comes around for Mudiay, there are plenty of things to look forward too still. Now I'm not saying he's got John Walls athleticism, but mudiay's athleticism, strength and finishing ability is closer to Wall's than it is to Rondo's, MCWs and Rubio's. And not to mention his jump shot is WAY better than any of theirs at this point in his career.

come into the league with a less than ideal shooting skill and need to improve it over time. Somewhat like WRs entering the NFL and route-running.

when he entered the league. Look at his first few years. He was under 40% from the field his rookie year and barely 40 his second year. Shot well under 30% from 3 both years. Guys improve. What you look for is the basis of size/athleticism and basketball acumen. Larry Brown seems to be thoroughly convinced this kid has it. That's good enough for me. Also i love his defensive upside. I'm sick and tired of watching every lead guard stroll into the garden and drop 40 on us in his sleep...

that Westbrook still isn't a good outside shooter based on his efficiency numbers and yet he was an MVP candidate this past season.

but I enjoy repeating myself:

Extremely high-athleticism, superior jumping young players (e.g., 19) very often can't shoot, for the simple reason that when they played high school, AAU and street ball, they hardly ever played against anyone they couldn't beat to the basket. The very last thing they wanted to do, or were encouraged to do by their coaches, was take a high volume of outside shots, so that was also one of the last and least things they practiced. And, in Mudiay's case, from a young age he was being encouraged to learn outside-in pg skills, another reason not to take many jumpers. Finally, of course, when you play a lot of street ball on rims with no net, every jump shot is a low-percentage shot, so it makes more sense to take the ball to the hole--which you are better at, anyway.

Unless you have a godawful stroke, which no scout says that Mudiay has, shooting skills come, but they come later.

I really expect that if the first three picks go according to form, the Knicks are either trading down a fair amount for added value and a pick they believe is undervalued (unlikely) or taking Mudiay when their turn comes.

and players that I want in the draft to fall to the Knicks never do.

Quote:

Lopes1984 : 6/23/2015 8:18 pm : link : reply the phone with Philly and see what it would take to move up to 3. I have a feeling that a lot of the talks linking Russell and Philly over the past few days have been meant to entice that exact move. It sucks to have to give up a guy or a pick to do it, but if Jackson feels that strongly about Russell compared to the other options that would be available then you just have to pull the trigger on a move up.

Agreed. If you feel like it's a special player to turn the team around then you have to do it. I'm sure they are still kicking themselves about Curry. I did have a dream 3 mos ago that we fell to 4 or 5 in the draft before we had the balls drop and both Oak and Towns both fell but that's not happening. Zenmaster needs to work the phone NOT mills. Go up and get the player you need and fanagle like a Gypsy!

Then he is an incredibly rare commodity and would be the steal of all steals at 4. There are not many guys who have ever walked this planet who have legitimate 3 point range and can be rim protectors that can anchor a defense. And this isn't a 7 footer, this is someone who is 7'1" 1/4 without shoes, which means he will be listed at 7'2" to 7'3" at the next level, with a 7'6" wingspan to boot ( which is bigger than Yao Mings wingspan). And he can handle the ball as well as anyone that size.

I'm not worried about his strength assuming he has a work ethic (which he reportedly does), there aren't many (any?) jacked 19 year olds with 7'6" wingspans. He can only fill out going forward. I'm not worried about any of the stupid European stereotypes that everyone should be well past in the year 2015, they are as diverse as any other set of players. The only thing that gives me pause is just the shear unknown of having never seen him play beyond highlights. But it just seems to me that if we are to project both Porzingis and Mudiay to their ultimate ceiling, The payoff just seems way bigger with Porzingis on both ends of the floor

I have next to no exposure to either. Mudiay could be great and Porzingis could flame out for all I know, none of us have any real exposure to either of them. I'm just making a comparison of their reported skillsets. The best case scenario with Porzingis is so alluring and unique. You just don't see that size with guard skills in combination with defensive anchor potential.

I expected 7'0" and 220 but he came in at 7'3" and 230 with a 7'6" wingspan.

To be honest, I definitely have Euro-phobia when it comes to these lottery projects especially "stretch 4s" since there have been so many "Fake Dirks" over the years.

But Porzingis definitely has a unique feel to him because of how agile and athletic he is. His combination of length and agility and shooting really is something crazy.

I think he has the highest ceiling in this draft but I also think he has one of the higher bust-rates in the top 10. He's actually really impressed me from a mental point of view. I really want KP to become a star because this league really needs someone to replace Dirk.

In comment 12339324 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

I'm tired of not having picks and guys with Cousins attitude. I think he's great and all, and I may be in the minority but I think he is a bit overrated. He was putting up numbers on a bad team, as indicated by his low FG%. For around 40% of his field goal attempts being jump shots he is not very good at hitting them.

Cousins is a beast, and on both ends of the floor. He's a way better pro than I expected him to be coming out, and he's probably the most underrated defensive player in the entire league. He is a legitimate anchor, but due to Sacramento being so far off the radar he is sadly defined on that end by a few vines that went viral showing effort lapses. He can be a hot head but he's the best Center in the league right now and there isn't a close 2nd.

I don't mean this in an insulting way, but it's a bit lazy to just look at Cousins and the Kings W/L record and write him off as an empty numbers guy. There are several useful and telling ways at our disposal today to accurately assess individual impact independent of team circumstances, and everything we have SCREAMS Cousins is a monster impact guy who performed a minor miracle in leading a dogshit Sacramento team to a positive point differential with him on the floor in a loaded West. With all the time he missed this season, we got a very healthy 2,000 minute sample of the Kings without him on the floor, and what we saw in his absence was the worst team in the NBA by leaps and bounds. Worse than Minnesota, worse than Philly, worse than the shell of a squad the Knicks were putting out there post Melo issue. Defensively they were one of the worst teams in history when Cousins wasn't on the floor. The whole situation is toxic there from the owner on down, and in the West that's a huge hill to overcome

The knock on his fg% is a bit misguided. First off fg% is a pretty crappy way to judge scoring efficiency in the first place, but even so 47% is fine for a volume scorer. Of course fg% doesn't account for how often he gets to the line, and the fact that he is an above average ft shooter when he gets there (elite for a big). His true shooting % (which accounts for his ft shooting) is a tick above league average, which is very respectable for a volume scorer, not sparkling but highly respectable, and can certainly be improved with superior shot selection that would likely come if he was immersed in a structure that wasn't a complete mess like Sacramento

He's a beast. If he is available you do everything in your power to get him. He would definitely be in my top 5 of players of build around for the next 8 years