to attempt to reduce the suspension, and own up to the fiasco, which he doesn't want damaging his legacy any further.
Many questions surround at least two of the NE championships, not to mention SEA handed them this one.
SEA handing it to them is the bigger knock I think. The Pats had no answer for Marshawn Lynch and were saved only by the abject stupidity of Pete Carroll and staff. And Wilson is as as dumb for running that play as Joe Pisacik was for running "the fumble" play.
to attempt to reduce the suspension, and own up to the fiasco, which he doesn't want damaging his legacy any further.
Many questions surround at least two of the NE championships, not to mention SEA handed them this one.
SEA handing it to them is the bigger knock I think. The Pats had no answer for Marshawn Lynch and were saved only by the abject stupidity of Pete Carroll and staff. And Wilson is as as dumb for running that play as Joe Pisacik was for running "the fumble" play.
What I wish (and it won't happen) would be that the 3 games are the 3 Patriots home games against their divisional rivals.
It's the most fair for the teams from other divisions playing the Patriots (say the NFC East, where one team might miss playing against Brady while the other teams have to face him).
Plus it hurts the Patriots playoff chances the most.
to attempt to reduce the suspension, and own up to the fiasco, which he doesn't want damaging his legacy any further.
Many questions surround at least two of the NE championships, not to mention SEA handed them this one.
SEA handing it to them is the bigger knock I think. The Pats had no answer for Marshawn Lynch and were saved only by the abject stupidity of Pete Carroll and staff. And Wilson is as as dumb for running that play as Joe Pisacik was for running "the fumble" play.
Not quite, but almost..:)
But at least Joe P's stupidity laid the groundwork for the Giants to become a powerhouse again. ;)
to attempt to reduce the suspension, and own up to the fiasco, which he doesn't want damaging his legacy any further.
Many questions surround at least two of the NE championships, not to mention SEA handed them this one.
SEA handing it to them is the bigger knock I think. The Pats had no answer for Marshawn Lynch and were saved only by the abject stupidity of Pete Carroll and staff. And Wilson is as as dumb for running that play as Joe Pisacik was for running "the fumble" play.
Not quite, but almost..:)
But at least Joe P's stupidity laid the groundwork for the Giants to become a powerhouse again. ;)
of course the escape; the catch and the joy of walking Manhattens impersonal streets turned personal and warm and hugging strangers as if it was the end of WWII. I will remember Jason Tuck, and Strahan, I will remember the 12 man penalty, the interception that bounced off Smith's pads. I will remember every play, but especially Alford's sac when he almost broke Brady in two and culminated a series of beatings the man absorbed and still he came at us. And all the beatings later and with the clock fading and his dreams of perfection looking shattered he dropped back to pass and threw the most perfect pass and in spite of the fact that we knew it was coming only Webster's fingernail saved it for us.
Not all the courage was on our side that day and I will forgive him his bluster cause he is special and he wasn't bragging.
...and you obstruct the inquiry you deserve to get suspended. To me that is a bigger issue than the infraction. Be a man and take your medicine. He did it. Everyone knows he did it.
Only way he gets it reduced is if he comes completely clean
if it was handed down immediately and included the Super Bowl. The fact that this is still being dealt with nearly six months later is laughable. Everything has to be a federal case with the NFL.
RE: Absolutely NOT a given anything was under-inflated
Failure to do so carries serious penalties in their own right.
So why didn't Brady make available the pertinent information? He wasn't asked to 'hand over his phone'. Answer? Because he was knee deep in it. They tampered with game balls being used in championship play at his behest. Get it?
Failure to do so carries serious penalties in their own right.
So why didn't Brady make available the pertinent information? He wasn't asked to 'hand over his phone'. Answer? Because he was knee deep in it. They tampered with game balls being used in championship play at his behest. Get it?
I don't disagree with my buddy CiP all that often, but in this case, I half disagree..Is this whole thing stupid? Of course, but as Torrag points out, stupid or not, you are required to fully cooperate with an investigation. If you don't, you're penalized..The rule is 100% clear on this..
RE: Absolutely NOT a given anything was under-inflated
"The Wells reports came to two primary conclusions: 1) That Jim McNally, the officials locker room attendant for the Patriots, and John Jastremski, the Pats' equipment manager, deliberately tried to release air from the teams' game ball after they were examined by referees, and 2) That quarterback Tom Brady was aware of what McNally and Jastremski were doing. In essence, even if Brady didn't order the balls to be deflated, he didn't do anything to stop the practice."
Whether the act affected the game is immaterial. They clearly thought they were gaining some kind of advantage. That's cheating and I don't get why that's ok.
If the Pats had immediately admitted to deflating,
do you think the league would have punished them beyond the $25,000 fine?
Brady could have said, "Yeah, the locker room guys know I like them on the soft side," and the locker room guys could have taken the fall, saying, "Yeah, we give 'em a needle." The Pats would have taken care of the locker room guys, and everyone would acknowledge that 0.5 psi wasn't the key to the Pats dismantling the Colts. And the public's opinion of Brady wouldn't be as bad as it is now.
C'mon.....the texts point you in the right direction....
1) He didn't fully cooperate with the investigation, as others have pointed out (required by CBA I believe).
2) There is text information indicating balls were being deflated with his knowledge / per his direction.
3) Balls were in fact measured to be deflated at halftime.
4) Brady was among the group lobbying, year ago, to let teams control the ball inflation, with referee oversight.
The NFL CBA does NOT require a "court of law" / "beyond a reasonable doubt" level of certainty required.
In general, I'd hope he'd get suspended for the full 4 games, but in this case, I hope he plays against Dallas, so I hope it gets reduced to 3 games only because it benefits the Giants / hurts Dallas.
Whether the act affected the game is immaterial. They clearly thought they were gaining some kind of advantage. That's cheating and I don't get why that's ok.
Agree, I don't get the "well you know it was only minor cheating" excuse. It is the second time that team has been caught pulling shady shit with regards to cheating
RE: Why is it stupid to punish a guy for cheating?
Whether the act affected the game is immaterial. They clearly thought they were gaining some kind of advantage. That's cheating and I don't get why that's ok.
This is how I see it.
RE: Why is it stupid to punish a guy for cheating?
They clearly thought they were gaining some kind of advantage. That's cheating and I don't get why that's ok.
Agree. Heck, even if the Patriots were NOT gaining any kind of advantage, the simple act of inserting a needle into the game balls after the ref had finished inspection constituted utter cheating. That act could not have happened by accident. It could have only have happened by careful design and planning.
There are many teachers/professors on this board. Let's say you give a (close-book) exam to your class, and one of the students opens his text book and takes a peek, however brief, and then, without touching his pen again and without altering his written answers one bit, he turns in his exam to you, and leaves the room.
Please assure the public that you, as the discipline enforcer, do still very much consider his act to be nothing but cheating, and will punish him accordingly.
It's not about act's consequence, impact, advantages/disadvantages, better-off/worse-off. It's about the act itself.
Yeah put me in the camp that doesnt understand the sentiment
that 'hey he cheated (and then didn't cooperate with the investigation)... but its not an important rule so nothing to see here'
Sometimes i think 45 mph highway zones are stupid too. Going 65 just isn't a big deal... but cops and courts tend to disagree.
I think on some level Goodell probably does want to reduce this from 4 games to 2. But Roger's got an image problem here -- one his authority is increasingly under attack. Two, he's suspended a shitload of black players in the league over the years for arguably a lot less, not to mention all the 'indefinite' suspensions last year for those that tarnished the brand.
So will be interesting to see how this goes - my gutt tells me he's going to hold firm to 4 games.
RE: Yeah put me in the camp that doesnt understand the sentiment
that 'hey he cheated (and then didn't cooperate with the investigation)... but its not an important rule so nothing to see here'
Sometimes i think 45 mph highway zones are stupid too. Going 65 just isn't a big deal... but cops and courts tend to disagree.
I think on some level Goodell probably does want to reduce this from 4 games to 2. But Roger's got an image problem here -- one his authority is increasingly under attack. Two, he's suspended a shitload of black players in the league over the years for arguably a lot less, not to mention all the 'indefinite' suspensions last year for those that tarnished the brand.
So will be interesting to see how this goes - my gutt tells me he's going to hold firm to 4 games.
One of many reasons Goodell should not be part of the appeal.
...which is a much worse form of cheating than having your balls inflated lower than some arbitrary level. I don't see why there is any regulation other than that the balls should be able to fly through the air.
And if the only level of proof required is "more probable than not," why aren't they going after the obvious steroids abusers in the league?
RE: RE: Yeah put me in the camp that doesnt understand the sentiment
that 'hey he cheated (and then didn't cooperate with the investigation)... but its not an important rule so nothing to see here'
Sometimes i think 45 mph highway zones are stupid too. Going 65 just isn't a big deal... but cops and courts tend to disagree.
I think on some level Goodell probably does want to reduce this from 4 games to 2. But Roger's got an image problem here -- one his authority is increasingly under attack. Two, he's suspended a shitload of black players in the league over the years for arguably a lot less, not to mention all the 'indefinite' suspensions last year for those that tarnished the brand.
So will be interesting to see how this goes - my gutt tells me he's going to hold firm to 4 games.
One of many reasons Goodell should not be part of the appeal.
Yeah, he definitely should have recused himself and allowed it to be heard by someone else, with that understanding what the league expects from Brady. I don't get his insistence on hearing it himself after he gave out his punishment.
RE: RE: RE: Yeah put me in the camp that doesnt understand the sentiment
that 'hey he cheated (and then didn't cooperate with the investigation)... but its not an important rule so nothing to see here'
Sometimes i think 45 mph highway zones are stupid too. Going 65 just isn't a big deal... but cops and courts tend to disagree.
I think on some level Goodell probably does want to reduce this from 4 games to 2. But Roger's got an image problem here -- one his authority is increasingly under attack. Two, he's suspended a shitload of black players in the league over the years for arguably a lot less, not to mention all the 'indefinite' suspensions last year for those that tarnished the brand.
So will be interesting to see how this goes - my gutt tells me he's going to hold firm to 4 games.
One of many reasons Goodell should not be part of the appeal.
Yeah, he definitely should have recused himself and allowed it to be heard by someone else, with that understanding what the league expects from Brady. I don't get his insistence on hearing it himself after he gave out his punishment.
He didn't hand out the punishment, Troy Vincent did. And Goodell approved it. That gave him the right, via the CBA, to oversee the appeal.
This was all agreed upon in the CBA. If they didn't like it, they shouldn't have signed it.
That said, I'm in the this is no big deal category, and I don't think Brady "cheated".
...which is a much worse form of cheating than having your balls inflated lower than some arbitrary level. I don't see why there is any regulation other than that the balls should be able to fly through the air.
And if the only level of proof required is "more probable than not," why aren't they going after the obvious steroids abusers in the league?
And if those players are caught cheating using steroids... they likewise will receive lengthy suspensions
It's not any players right to determine which rules make sense and which are insignificant. Don't like a rule - bring it up in the rules competition committee at year-end like Peyton Manning and Bill Polian have done so well over the years.
And for a fan to say the rule is silly... well ok, that's your right... but irrelevant to anything (yes i know we are just chatting on a message board)
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
In the end, there's nothing sweeter than the fact Brady has been to 6 Super Bowls - he is 0-2 against the Giants and 4-0 against the rest of the NFL
Many questions surround at least two of the NE championships, not to mention SEA handed them this one.
Many questions surround at least two of the NE championships, not to mention SEA handed them this one.
Agreed
Many questions surround at least two of the NE championships, not to mention SEA handed them this one.
SEA handing it to them is the bigger knock I think. The Pats had no answer for Marshawn Lynch and were saved only by the abject stupidity of Pete Carroll and staff. And Wilson is as as dumb for running that play as Joe Pisacik was for running "the fumble" play.
Quote:
to attempt to reduce the suspension, and own up to the fiasco, which he doesn't want damaging his legacy any further.
Many questions surround at least two of the NE championships, not to mention SEA handed them this one.
SEA handing it to them is the bigger knock I think. The Pats had no answer for Marshawn Lynch and were saved only by the abject stupidity of Pete Carroll and staff. And Wilson is as as dumb for running that play as Joe Pisacik was for running "the fumble" play.
Not quite, but almost..:)
It's the most fair for the teams from other divisions playing the Patriots (say the NFC East, where one team might miss playing against Brady while the other teams have to face him).
Plus it hurts the Patriots playoff chances the most.
Do it Roger!
Plus it gives 2015's anointed ones a week 4 break.
Quote:
In comment 12338462 JonC said:
Quote:
to attempt to reduce the suspension, and own up to the fiasco, which he doesn't want damaging his legacy any further.
Many questions surround at least two of the NE championships, not to mention SEA handed them this one.
SEA handing it to them is the bigger knock I think. The Pats had no answer for Marshawn Lynch and were saved only by the abject stupidity of Pete Carroll and staff. And Wilson is as as dumb for running that play as Joe Pisacik was for running "the fumble" play.
Not quite, but almost..:)
But at least Joe P's stupidity laid the groundwork for the Giants to become a powerhouse again. ;)
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 12338522 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 12338462 JonC said:
Quote:
to attempt to reduce the suspension, and own up to the fiasco, which he doesn't want damaging his legacy any further.
Many questions surround at least two of the NE championships, not to mention SEA handed them this one.
SEA handing it to them is the bigger knock I think. The Pats had no answer for Marshawn Lynch and were saved only by the abject stupidity of Pete Carroll and staff. And Wilson is as as dumb for running that play as Joe Pisacik was for running "the fumble" play.
Not quite, but almost..:)
But at least Joe P's stupidity laid the groundwork for the Giants to become a powerhouse again. ;)
True dat
Not all the courage was on our side that day and I will forgive him his bluster cause he is special and he wasn't bragging.
agree
Yup.
Brady gets 0 games, Patriots still lose pick(s) because the ball boy didn't follow procedure.
Brady gets 0 games, Patriots still lose pick(s) because the ball boy didn't follow procedure.
agree
Brady gets 0 games, Patriots still lose pick(s) because the ball boy didn't follow procedure.
Didn't the ball boy admit to deflating the balls? The Deflator, isn't that what he called himself?
So why didn't Brady make available the pertinent information? He wasn't asked to 'hand over his phone'. Answer? Because he was knee deep in it. They tampered with game balls being used in championship play at his behest. Get it?
So why didn't Brady make available the pertinent information? He wasn't asked to 'hand over his phone'. Answer? Because he was knee deep in it. They tampered with game balls being used in championship play at his behest. Get it?
I don't disagree with my buddy CiP all that often, but in this case, I half disagree..Is this whole thing stupid? Of course, but as Torrag points out, stupid or not, you are required to fully cooperate with an investigation. If you don't, you're penalized..The rule is 100% clear on this..
Brady gets 0 games, Patriots still lose pick(s) because the ball boy didn't follow procedure.
LOL...The ball boy admitted he deflated them
And then there is this:
Brady could have said, "Yeah, the locker room guys know I like them on the soft side," and the locker room guys could have taken the fall, saying, "Yeah, we give 'em a needle." The Pats would have taken care of the locker room guys, and everyone would acknowledge that 0.5 psi wasn't the key to the Pats dismantling the Colts. And the public's opinion of Brady wouldn't be as bad as it is now.
He's tangled in it to some degree, so while the suspension may be reduced (the reason he was given 4 games), it won't be zero games.
2) There is text information indicating balls were being deflated with his knowledge / per his direction.
3) Balls were in fact measured to be deflated at halftime.
4) Brady was among the group lobbying, year ago, to let teams control the ball inflation, with referee oversight.
The NFL CBA does NOT require a "court of law" / "beyond a reasonable doubt" level of certainty required.
In general, I'd hope he'd get suspended for the full 4 games, but in this case, I hope he plays against Dallas, so I hope it gets reduced to 3 games only because it benefits the Giants / hurts Dallas.
Agree, I don't get the "well you know it was only minor cheating" excuse. It is the second time that team has been caught pulling shady shit with regards to cheating
This is how I see it.
Agree. Heck, even if the Patriots were NOT gaining any kind of advantage, the simple act of inserting a needle into the game balls after the ref had finished inspection constituted utter cheating. That act could not have happened by accident. It could have only have happened by careful design and planning.
There are many teachers/professors on this board. Let's say you give a (close-book) exam to your class, and one of the students opens his text book and takes a peek, however brief, and then, without touching his pen again and without altering his written answers one bit, he turns in his exam to you, and leaves the room.
Please assure the public that you, as the discipline enforcer, do still very much consider his act to be nothing but cheating, and will punish him accordingly.
It's not about act's consequence, impact, advantages/disadvantages, better-off/worse-off. It's about the act itself.
Sometimes i think 45 mph highway zones are stupid too. Going 65 just isn't a big deal... but cops and courts tend to disagree.
I think on some level Goodell probably does want to reduce this from 4 games to 2. But Roger's got an image problem here -- one his authority is increasingly under attack. Two, he's suspended a shitload of black players in the league over the years for arguably a lot less, not to mention all the 'indefinite' suspensions last year for those that tarnished the brand.
So will be interesting to see how this goes - my gutt tells me he's going to hold firm to 4 games.
I have always thought an appeal should have three possible outcomes, one being an increase of punishment.
Mr. Brady can choose to prolong this fight by all means, but not with nothing to lose.
Sometimes i think 45 mph highway zones are stupid too. Going 65 just isn't a big deal... but cops and courts tend to disagree.
I think on some level Goodell probably does want to reduce this from 4 games to 2. But Roger's got an image problem here -- one his authority is increasingly under attack. Two, he's suspended a shitload of black players in the league over the years for arguably a lot less, not to mention all the 'indefinite' suspensions last year for those that tarnished the brand.
So will be interesting to see how this goes - my gutt tells me he's going to hold firm to 4 games.
One of many reasons Goodell should not be part of the appeal.
And if the only level of proof required is "more probable than not," why aren't they going after the obvious steroids abusers in the league?
Quote:
that 'hey he cheated (and then didn't cooperate with the investigation)... but its not an important rule so nothing to see here'
Sometimes i think 45 mph highway zones are stupid too. Going 65 just isn't a big deal... but cops and courts tend to disagree.
I think on some level Goodell probably does want to reduce this from 4 games to 2. But Roger's got an image problem here -- one his authority is increasingly under attack. Two, he's suspended a shitload of black players in the league over the years for arguably a lot less, not to mention all the 'indefinite' suspensions last year for those that tarnished the brand.
So will be interesting to see how this goes - my gutt tells me he's going to hold firm to 4 games.
One of many reasons Goodell should not be part of the appeal.
Yeah, he definitely should have recused himself and allowed it to be heard by someone else, with that understanding what the league expects from Brady. I don't get his insistence on hearing it himself after he gave out his punishment.
Quote:
In comment 12340900 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
that 'hey he cheated (and then didn't cooperate with the investigation)... but its not an important rule so nothing to see here'
Sometimes i think 45 mph highway zones are stupid too. Going 65 just isn't a big deal... but cops and courts tend to disagree.
I think on some level Goodell probably does want to reduce this from 4 games to 2. But Roger's got an image problem here -- one his authority is increasingly under attack. Two, he's suspended a shitload of black players in the league over the years for arguably a lot less, not to mention all the 'indefinite' suspensions last year for those that tarnished the brand.
So will be interesting to see how this goes - my gutt tells me he's going to hold firm to 4 games.
One of many reasons Goodell should not be part of the appeal.
Yeah, he definitely should have recused himself and allowed it to be heard by someone else, with that understanding what the league expects from Brady. I don't get his insistence on hearing it himself after he gave out his punishment.
He didn't hand out the punishment, Troy Vincent did. And Goodell approved it. That gave him the right, via the CBA, to oversee the appeal.
This was all agreed upon in the CBA. If they didn't like it, they shouldn't have signed it.
That said, I'm in the this is no big deal category, and I don't think Brady "cheated".
And if the only level of proof required is "more probable than not," why aren't they going after the obvious steroids abusers in the league?
And if those players are caught cheating using steroids... they likewise will receive lengthy suspensions
It's not any players right to determine which rules make sense and which are insignificant. Don't like a rule - bring it up in the rules competition committee at year-end like Peyton Manning and Bill Polian have done so well over the years.
And for a fan to say the rule is silly... well ok, that's your right... but irrelevant to anything (yes i know we are just chatting on a message board)