Seems adding multiple #2 prospects from this draft would've been ideal.
Now they can squeak under the cap to build next season's squad, but would probably need another trade to move salary out (Klein) if they need room to move.
That trade is for cap relief. They don't want to pay Hags. Gropp is an interesting pick but won't help us for a couple years. We're a worse club today on the ice.
It appears Sather may have overplayed his hand on Talbot for now. Another opportunity could arise at a later date. I question whether his value will ever be this high again.
These last two off seasons have been poorly managed by the front office. If we don't win the Kevin Hayes lottery it would be even worse.
This was a bad weekend for the Rangers. team is worse than when the season ended. Misplayed the hand for Talbot imo. Didn't maximize his value whatsoever.
Trading Hags was the cap relief business decision, and they are definitely stockpiling picks to replenish the farm system. Hard to argue all the assets they've traded away the past couple years have mostly been for naught, but the activity today releases some of the disappointment pressure.
It is a bummer they haven't improved the big club as yet
This was a bad weekend for the Rangers. team is worse than when the season ended. Misplayed the hand for Talbot imo. Didn't maximize his value whatsoever.
Etem is still very young, cheap and has potential. He's bigger than Hagelin albeit a lot slower. I have no feeling about the deal. Actually, I'm a bit numb. But yes, considering we gave up Hagelin and Talbot, we're worse. The cupboard was bare and we needed to replenish it. I'll miss both and I'll miss the chemistry Hags had with Hayes.
Corey Pronman @coreypronman 3m3 minutes ago
NYR select Robin Kovacs. For those about to quick Google his stats, keep in mind he led his SHL-2 team in scoring as a teenager.
I'm very confident in Gordie Clark and the Rangers scouts. They've done a fantastic job finding talent in all rounds in recent memory. So it's a good thing we've given that group of evaluators some bullets to take aim with.
Ross MacLean @rossmaclean 1m1 minute ago
Kovacs - A supervillain in the making. Pesky winger who does not give up and always seems to be johnny-on-the-spot.
Sean Hartnett @HartnettHockey 25s26 seconds ago
Robin Kovacs has a reputation for being a speedy, possession-strong winger that plays an agitating game. Special teams performer. #NYR
Ross MacLean @rossmaclean 1m1 minute ago
Kovacs - A supervillain in the making. Pesky winger who does not give up and always seems to be johnny-on-the-spot.
Sean Hartnett @HartnettHockey 25s26 seconds ago
Robin Kovacs has a reputation for being a speedy, possession-strong winger that plays an agitating game. Special teams performer. #NYR
He also led his SHL-2 team in scoring as a teenager.
In Gordie Clark's interview yesterday he suggests a roster spot is there for Buchnevic if he comes over and that he was informed so. The video is available on Blueshirts United. You never know what is up with the Russians.
Donesh Mazloum @DMaz16 Oct 19
2015 eligible D Sergey Zborovskiy has stood out. Covers a lot of ice with his skating. He's an asset on both ends of the ice.
Brandon Watts @_BrandonWatts Oct 19
2015 Draft eligible dman Sergey Zborovskiy has been impressive so far. Smart on both ends of the ice and gets around with ease. @FCHockey
Cody Nickolet @DubFromAbove 1m1 minute ago
Regina D Sergey Zborovskiy goes to NYR at 79. Big boy, plays a hard game. I rated him 96th on my WHL list, though, not draftable to me.
Isn't this the second year in a row we've drafted a lot of size?
Steven Ives @StIves72 41m41 minutes ago
Deep sleeper alert: Aleksi Saarela has big talent as top line scoring W but has been plagued by injuries. @Ian_Gooding @TodaysSlapshot
Shawn Reis @ShawnReis 2h2 hours ago
Don't know anything about Aleksi Saarela but @YakovMironov has him in his top 30 so he's another player to look for.
Chaz MichaelMichaels @_NYRvana_ 1m1 minute ago
Saarela has potential 1st line skill. Insane shot and is fast. Needs to continue to work hard and develop. Very risky but I like the pick
Matt @mavanco 2m2 minutes ago
Aleksi Saarela, ISS 103, top 9 depth center. Very good skater, dynamic offensive skill. Improved D zone play this past season.
In Gordie Clark's interview yesterday he suggests a roster spot is there for Buchnevic if he comes over and that he was informed so. The video is available on Blueshirts United. You never know what is up with the Russians.
Never know. Buch was quoted as saying he didn't think he would make the team though.
We'll see.
The guy whose job it is to correspond with prospects...
was one of those selections that I love. I would rather take a shot on a talented player who is undersized and/or coming off an injury plagued season that a healthy big player with limited upside who is likely to be a 3rd or 4th line player at best. I wish the Devils would make more moves like this because they have had a lot of luck recently with taking both Jon Merrill and Severson in the 2nd round when both had early round 1 talent.
Steve Zipay @stevezipay 11m11 minutes ago
At 113, Rangers take Brad Morrison, a center for Prince George Cougars. 23-27-50 in 67 games
Chaz MichaelMichaels @_NYRvana_ 14m14 minutes ago
NYR SELECT BRAD MORRISON HE PLAYS LIKE MARCHAND I WROTE ABOUT ON @BlueSeatBlogs
Mitch Brown @MitchLBrown 14m14 minutes ago
NYR take Brad Morrison. Human highlight reel. Insanely high skill level. Not afraid of the tough areas of the ice. Nice pick.
bill gordon @UndeRadar 12m12 minutes ago
Brad Morrison comes from a family with a lot of hockey pedigree, including his Uncle Mark-drafted by the #NYR in 1981. #NHLDraft
Sean Hartnett @HartnettHockey 3m3 minutes ago
#NYR selects another Swedish winger with the 119th overall pick -- Daniel Bernhardt.
Matt @mavanco 2m2 minutes ago
Daniel Bernhardt is not ranked by ISS so I cannot regurgitate a scouting report.
Mike Gosnell @MikeGosnell_IUP 9m9 minutes ago
Really like NYR's 4th round pick Daniel Bernhardt. Excellent numbers with Djurgarden in the J20SuperElit.
Alex Nunn @aj_ranger 12s13 seconds ago
Another speedy, skilled winger. Made steady improvement each of the past few years in junior.
Overplayed his hand with Talbot? How do you know he did not end up getting more than he had been offered? Of wait - you read a blog and that said teams were lining up with #1s and more. Love BBIers who are smarter than the guys actually on the phone fielding offers. How about credit for getting anything for a goalie who played college hockey in Alabama.
I thought a second was market value all along. But when Lehner fetched a first, the market seemed overheated, and the Rangers should have been able to extract a first, perhaps by adding another piece.
But I think they did alright with that deal. The cap issues are well documented and Hags is the type of guy you've gotta make the tough decisions on when it comes to approaching free agency. A very solid player but pretty well established as a 3rd liner and not quite enough offense to be a top 6 guy. Would love to keep everybody but with Stepan needing a big deal and JT needing to be locked up as an RFA, something had to give. It's too bad but understandable.
Etem sounds like he may have a bit more offensive upside and is younger and cheaper.
Overplayed his hand with Talbot? How do you know he did not end up getting more than he had been offered? Of wait - you read a blog and that said teams were lining up with #1s and more. Love BBIers who are smarter than the guys actually on the phone fielding offers. How about credit for getting anything for a goalie who played college hockey in Alabama.
Stop acting like there was no basis for it. Darren Dreger reported it. Along with Bob McKenzie, Dreger is the most reliable NHL reporter out there. Also, let's not forget what Robin Lehner fetched
to trade him. So the question is would you rather have Klein and Glass or Hagelin for 4.5 million per? Still hoping we trade Glass this offseason. We also need to extend Stepan, Etem, Miller, Fast, Kreider, Hayes and Yandle. And now, we need a backup Goalie. Look for Viktor Fasth or Ray Emery.
He's lost it. Past time to be put out to pasture. And not in the president's office where he can fuck up Jeff Gorton's chance to put his stamp on the roster. He doesn't even want to do it anymore. He knows the team is close and wants one last hurrah heading into the sunset. As a result he's making short sighted moves to 'win now'.
But I think they did alright with that deal. The cap issues are well documented and Hags is the type of guy you've gotta make the tough decisions on when it comes to approaching free agency. A very solid player but pretty well established as a 3rd liner and not quite enough offense to be a top 6 guy. Would love to keep everybody but with Stepan needing a big deal and JT needing to be locked up as an RFA, something had to give. It's too bad but understandable.
Etem sounds like he may have a bit more offensive upside and is younger and cheaper.
Hags sucks. Glad to see him go, and if he commanded 4.25 mil and we paid it, we would have been fools. Anything we get back is a steal for him, he has tons of speed but hands of stone.
DCOrange was the clear frontrunner for clueless hockey post of the day
Let's trade Sather. The S-O-B is ruining our team. Etem is a stiff -- a 1st round pick who has five goals at age 23. There's nothing there. Hagelin is more than the sum of his point totals. He will be missed. But we can always rely on our first round picks, right? Oh, wait...
@AdamHerman_BSB: On the Talbot saga, Gorton also admitted that "at times it looked like it would be a better deal, and it didn't manufacture that way."
With his speed, the fact that he only accounts for 18 assists and less than half a point a game, is criminal. Only in the mind of a guy who overrates his own players is he worth 4.25 million. I agree, though, if Hags has hands he would be a 7-8 million guy a year because he would score 80-90 points a year. If the queen had balls she would be king. He doesn't, and just is not productive enough to keep at any salary close to 4.25, might as well get something back.
Because making two mistakes is better than making one. Explain to me how he is worth 4.25 million, under what metric. If I am wrong, I am wrong. But I don't see it with my eyes or with his numbers. He had a nice first year here in 2012, since then he has been mediocre, at best. Not at all sad to see him leave .
guy puts up 1st line production even strength. Is Claude Giroux good? Because Hags has more 5v5 points over 3 years than Giroux, I believe in fewer games. Consistent 17 goal/year guy (that pace each of the last 3 years when you adjust the lockout games to 82).
Very, very good defensively and a key PKer.
And his speed adds a dimension that doesnt show up in his personal stats. Specifically, Hags routinely reversed the ice -- he come one the ice with the puck in our defensive zone, and leaves with the puck in the other team's zone.
Not one person has made one legitimate argument that Hags is worth 4 million and that is what this is all about. To say that it is a different discussion is absurd, it is the discussion.
George Richards @GeorgeRichards 11m11 minutes ago
When asked what the #FlaPanthers offered for Cam Talbot, Dale Tallon spit "a lot. A whole lot." Sounds like he thought Panthers had it.
Not one person has made one legitimate argument that Hags is worth 4 million and that is what this is all about. To say that it is a different discussion is absurd, it is the discussion.
You said he "sucks" and completely failed to validate that opinion, so...
RE: Did Slats really want Talbot out West that badly?
George Richards @GeorgeRichards 11m11 minutes ago
When asked what the #FlaPanthers offered for Cam Talbot, Dale Tallon spit "a lot. A whole lot." Sounds like he thought Panthers had it.
I have a hard time thinking the Rangers didn't fuck this up.
They got more than what I thought fair value was... But I can't help but be disappointed.
I am sure there was a lot of smoke out there but it just seemed like there were too many rumors that had us potentially netting more than we did for us to have truly maximized our return.
guy puts up 1st line production even strength. Is Claude Giroux good? Because Hags has more 5v5 points over 3 years than Giroux, I believe in fewer games. Consistent 17 goal/year guy (that pace each of the last 3 years when you adjust the lockout games to 82).
Very, very good defensively and a key PKer.
And his speed adds a dimension that doesnt show up in his personal stats. Specifically, Hags routinely reversed the ice -- he come one the ice with the puck in our defensive zone, and leaves with the puck in the other team's zone.
Besides last year, where he was very close to a point a game scorer, Giroix has always been above a point a game. Who cares where he gets his goals, what the PP doesn't count? Giroux is good because Giroix produces. Hagelin is mediocre, because he doesn't produce. This is not rocket science. And I agree hags is a good penalty killer, but am I going to pay him for that?
Not one person has made one legitimate argument that Hags is worth 4 million and that is what this is all about. To say that it is a different discussion is absurd, it is the discussion.
You said he "sucks" and completely failed to validate that opinion, so...
That is fine if you disagree. but, again, I said he sucks in the context of a 4.25 million number, and I think you just need to look at his stat line to begin and end that argument. To make your guys point, somebody said he had more 5 on 5 production than Giroux, do I think Giroux is good? That is an argument, Giroux gets his points, where do you care where he gets it from. That is why he gets paid. Hagelin doesn't get his points. If he was anything more than mediocre with his speed, he would get more assists than 18.
My answer to him is maybe why do we complain every year when we don't score on the PP in the playoffs when we invest resources in players that he says "stinks" on the PP
Or should I say he wants to invest resources in a player
My answer to him is maybe why do we complain every year when we don't score on the PP in the playoffs when we invest resources in players that he says "stinks" on the PP
Yandle and Boyle were brought in for the PP. The PP hasn't failed due to a lack of investment.
I can at least understand an argument that says within the context of our cap situation, he's not worth that allocation but in a vacuum, outside of a salary cap crunch and relative only to his peers, I think he is absolutely worth 4+ per. So he sucks on the power play and doesn't get chances there. Big deal. He kills penalties, he's very good defensively, he forces defensemen to think twice about joining rushes and can change a game at any given moment with his wheels by creating an odd man.
He's a very, very good player overall. So he doesn't have great hands and doesn't score a ton of goals. Big deal
Your're investing in the right area, but not making wise decisions. To invest outside that area with 6% of your cap in one player, seems to me to be a bad investment if you are looking to improve the PP.
Is it smarter to invest this much on your 3rd pair?
You cant be serious in equating 5v5 scoring and PP scoring. PP is a special high change opportunity that only some players get (Giroux gets 4 mpg). Getting PP time makes it a lot easier to score (I feel like an idiot for even having to explain this).
Also Giroux would get 9-10 million as a UFA. And Benoit Pouliot got 4 million AAV for 5 years off a 15 goal season in NY (and an otherwise VERY disappointing career).
I think you just dont understand how much UFAs cost. Im reasonably sure Hags would get $5 million as a UFA.
because we have a cap crunch and Fast looks like he can fill the same role for a lot less. Whereas there is no replacement for Stepan or JT Miller available from within the organization. Plus the failure to develop a dman since McDonagh came up 5 years ago.
I am valuing production, however you get it. You're arguing that because Hagelin is good on 5v5, we should pay him between 4-5. I am arguing maybe we should allocate our limited resources in improving our PP. Hagelin doesn't get a ton of production to justify that salary (in a vacuum and especially in our situation).
was nice. Trading Haggerty was tough, because it did reflect some bad decisions in the past and he is worth a lot. That said, they have forced themselves into a position where they have to decide who the core of core is going forward, and that means finding money to keep Stepan, Kreider, Miller and Hayes.
I am valuing production, however you get it. You're arguing that because Hagelin is good on 5v5, we should pay him between 4-5. I am arguing maybe we should allocate our limited resources in improving our PP. Hagelin doesn't get a ton of production to justify that salary (in a vacuum and especially in our situation).
No, you're flailing. You said he sucks and isnt worth 4 million. That's a totally different argument than the Rangers shouldnt put their $4 million into Hags (a position I advocated in a lot of game threads this year, and I love Hags). But even your argument is kind of silly since (1) there is no reason to favor PP production over ES production and indeed, a lot of evidence that PP is the least important of the three phases of the game. And (2) the alternatives to trading Hags probably wouldnt help the PP either; we're out of trade ammo, the UFA market sucks, and guys like Klein and Glass (other $$ savings centers) dont contribute on the PP either. Dont pretend like the options are Hags vs. Sheldon Souray.
I can at least understand an argument that says within the context of our cap situation, he's not worth that allocation but in a vacuum, outside of a salary cap crunch and relative only to his peers, I think he is absolutely worth 4+ per. So he sucks on the power play and doesn't get chances there. Big deal. He kills penalties, he's very good defensively, he forces defensemen to think twice about joining rushes and can change a game at any given moment with his wheels by creating an odd man.
He's a very, very good player overall. So he doesn't have great hands and doesn't score a ton of goals. Big deal
Well said.
Not trading Girardi during the 2014 deadline was just killer.
You think? My guess is that this is more about Skapski being hurt to start the season, and needing 3 goalies anyway. Remember Desjardins was signed to be the #3 goalie last year but got hurt. Skapski should be the backup this year or next.
Usually you wouldnt bring up a goalie like the two we took last year to be backups to a franchise goalie in their age 20 seasons. Halverson to the AHL, Shetsyorkin remains in the KHL in 2016-17.
that Hags is definitely worth 4+ while at the same time recognizing that we couldn't be the ones to give him that in our current cap situation. I thought they got decent value out of him by moving him now. Though it's tough to see him go.
If Hagelin had hands and could finish, he'd be an amazing player. Now, he's a possession, 2-way speedster who is a bit of a pain in the neck. I do like Etem because he's still young, he's a power forward (which usually take a while to develop), he's cheap, and he has a lot of potential. I'm gonna miss Hagelin though.
Raata seems very good and a guy with some potential. When was the last time we had a Finn? Jokinen?
at work all day....so sad to see Hags go. He was def a favorite of mine, but I know in the end it's business and the Rangers couldn't afford 4-4.5 for him. I do however like Etem. I remember wanting him in the draft. Big body, can skate, and has offensive tools. He just needs to take that next step to become a player. He'll prob start out on 4th line, he's also not afraid to drop the gloves and stick up for teammates. Still sucks to lose Hags though.
I'm curious to know what you viewed as the better alternative(s) given where the team is going into this offseason.
I think it's hard to disagree with the premise that trading Hagelin was ultimately a result of some questionable decisions made previously. Those have been well documented.
I'm curious to know what you'd have them do differently in the present, given the past. You were just hired as GM after the loss to TB. What were the better ideas than what happened today?
Trade Steps? Plan on possibly losing Kreider or Hayes or Miller or Fast?
I'm sure there are a dozen viable and reasonable answers. I'm just trying to get a better read on where people are coming from.
at work all day....so sad to see Hags go. He was def a favorite of mine, but I know in the end it's business and the Rangers couldn't afford 4-4.5 for him. I do however like Etem. I remember wanting him in the draft. Big body, can skate, and has offensive tools. He just needs to take that next step to become a player. He'll prob start out on 4th line, he's also not afraid to drop the gloves and stick up for teammates. Still sucks to lose Hags though.
It's fine to trade Hags, but only for a worthy return. Unless they were convinced that the kid they took at #41 was really worth a top 20 pick, the return wasnt good enough (a disappointing former #1 and a swap of 2nds). I think a resigned Hags would have brought a better return -- give him a fair multiyear deal and a whole bunch of "bad" markets get interested.
Moreover, a better alternative would have been trading Klein and holding on to Hags.
Im totally sold on Skapski being a better alternative for 2016-17 as a 20 game NHL backup than those two kids. Being an NHL backup at age 20 is a waste of an important developmental year. Also, the Russian needs a lot of work. If he's going to make it at his size, he needs to be more technically proficient. He cant get by on agility alone with NHL-level passers and shooters.
Hagelin and Klein as alternatives to one another. In my view, at least one D needs to go, and Klein is the only one that makes a shred of sense. I think he'll still be moved.
It's a fair point about the returns we saw today. I thought we should and could have done better in both instances.
Doesn't change my view that disposing of one of Stepan and Hagelin was the best long-term move for the squad.
I know, Stralman is water under the bridge, let it go. But
this seems like similar water under the same bridge.
ct
Nah, Hagelin was traded while Stralman wasn't resigned. Now if Sather trades more prospects and draft choices for a speedy winger which commands a Hagelin price tag then it's like Stralman.
when they tend to sign prospect blocking replacement level UFA's.
The only guy I really want is Erik Condra and maybe Shawn Matthias. I hope no one blocks Lindberg from coming to the big leagues. He's earned it with his play in Hartford.
yep Sather is cooked. It's time to hand the keys to Gorton. We're going on 18 months of head scratchers and dumb decisions from Glen. He's desperate for a swan song Cup and is hurting the club. It's not irrecoverable by any means but they need to stop the bleeding now.
He overplayed his hand and those offers evaporated. Draft weekend is a sensitive time and it's very fluid. Once he had an over market offer he should have closed. He didn't get it done.
As far as Hags it's linked to all the stupid moves he's made going back to Girardi and Glass. You can't not talk about it because it had a direct effect on our ability to ink Carl. Millions pissed away for a poor return in performance. $4.5M for Dan freaking Boyle at 38? That's money well spent?
His judgement can no longer be trusted imo.
RE: I'm hoping Gorton is stepping into the forefront
again, I'm not a slats fan but we have no idea what was offered for Talbot.
When the going rate for a goalie is a #3 pick and he received more, that's a windfall. After the first 15 picks the NHL draft is about as accurate as a weather forecast. The more picks the better b/c children, in which few can bench press 135lbs 10 reps, are the choices.
Boyle, Glass, etc were ridiculous moves. As far as Hags he did get some solid return and the kid likely has a better shot than Hags. Looking forward, where do we want Hags to play? Nash, Kreider, Hayes, Miller, Zucs, Fast with Lindberg and Buchnevich in the near future, where does Hags play? Sure, Lindberg can play center, but we're looking at nine forwards already with Hags likely stuck on a 3rd line making some decent coin which could result in losing a top 6 forward.
Not a fan of Slats for along while but can't kill him this weekend. He made the team younger, less costly and added quite a few draft picks. Meanwhile, the President trophy winning team is basically still all here outside of one.
That the Rangers were offered a lot more for Talbot from the Panthers. So the question is, as a GM, do you take less and send the goalie out west, or do you look to help your team further and play against him 5 or 6 times a year?
That the Rangers were offered a lot more for Talbot from the Panthers. So the question is, as a GM, do you take less and send the goalie out west, or do you look to help your team further and play against him 5 or 6 times a year?
That the Rangers were offered a lot more for Talbot from the Panthers. So the question is, as a GM, do you take less and send the goalie out west, or do you look to help your team further and play against him 5 or 6 times a year?
What's a lot more? Draft picks? That Florida team is a fast growing power in the Eastern Conference. IMO, you don't help them by giving them their #1 goalie for maybe's.
We really don't know what the actual offers for Talbot were. There was smoke everywhere and I doubt we would have passed up on some of the rumored deals if they were ever actually on the table.
It's a bummer if we passed on Jimmy Hayes but I don't know what the whole package was going to be and it also may have been difficult to retain him anyway. We did need draft picks because we needed to re-stock the pipe a bit.
We can certainly argue that the return on Hagelin was less than what we'd have wanted but we're in a cap crunch and we just weren't going to be able to afford to pay him and retain guys like Stepan, Kreider, Hayes, etc. Better to get something than nothing.
We've already replaced Talbot with Raanta and I don't think there will be much of a drop off there. Etem has a ceiling that he hasn't come close to yet.
It felt disappointing overall but I think a lot of the rumors created unrealistic expectations.
over the past 18-24 months, and there's plenty of deals where he gambled on the present, and traded away significant pieces of the future (the MSL trade, the Yandle trade) ... those were heavy gambles on winning now, and I'd agree Sather went too heavy. I suggested it at the time of both trades, so this isn't hindsight.
That the Rangers were offered a lot more for Talbot from the Panthers. So the question is, as a GM, do you take less and send the goalie out west, or do you look to help your team further and play against him 5 or 6 times a year?
What's a lot more? Draft picks? That Florida team is a fast growing power in the Eastern Conference. IMO, you don't help them by giving them their #1 goalie for maybe's.
I think it included Jimmy Hayes' brother, who will be due for some $$$
Gorton's comments and the fact Lehner fetched a first make it logical to conclude Sather didn't maximize the return for Talbot. I think the return was essentially fair value, but market value seemed quite a bit higher. It seems Sather screwed up.
And the Rangers do okay in the Hags trade if Etem becomes a decent third liner, which they seem to think he can be. The issue is that the Rangers don't have the top tier talent other teams do, so they have to win on quality depth. This hurts that ability a lot. And then when you have Glass killing an entire line, it becomes hard. Hopefully Fast and Lindberg can mitigate Hagelin's loss. We'll see.
Jon's spot on. Sather has had a bad 18 months outside of Hayes, IMV, and most of those moves were criticized from the start.
Relative team success (and still without a Cup) shouldn't make us think management is doing well.
Clearly, this is one of the best rosters in the NHL. But, he's made some crucial gambles and I'm merely suggesting he got waxed on some of the deals. Waxed when his strong suit historically has been winning on trades. His age and trying to win one more on his watch are clearly part of his overall thought process and choosing to gamble, and it's become a concern, imv.
I'm curious to know what you viewed as the better alternative(s) given where the team is going into this offseason.
I think it's hard to disagree with the premise that trading Hagelin was ultimately a result of some questionable decisions made previously. Those have been well documented.
I'm curious to know what you'd have them do differently in the present, given the past. You were just hired as GM after the loss to TB. What were the better ideas than what happened today?
Trade Steps? Plan on possibly losing Kreider or Hayes or Miller or Fast?
I'm sure there are a dozen viable and reasonable answers. I'm just trying to get a better read on where people are coming from.
There's way too much information we don't have here. A lot depends on what Stepan gets. It's a lot more understandable if he signs for $6.5M. But of he comes in below that, I think Klein/Glass maneuvering would have allowed the team to keep Hagelin.
With that said, I wouldn't be shocked if there was a desire to change the locker room a bit as well.
I think youngsters like Lindberg, McIl, and Skjei will be the type of quality depth to keep the window open.
But, the lack of scoring talent on the top lines, and missing some size/physicality over 60 minutes needs to be fixed. Very good NHL contending roster, but still needs something.
Brooks' latest touches on some of these same points.
In fact I can not stand the arrogant bastard For people who were too young, when he was with Edmonton and he lost some of his big players due to cap issues, he stated he would win the cup every year if he was in New York, well how fuckin long has the prick been here and how many cups do we have?
Sorry, but he has always rubbed me the wrong way, and he is a former Ranger player too boot. I know he was frustrated with losing the greatest player in the game, then Mess, but that was a low blow to the Rangers management back then, in fact when he got here he fucked up everything until a cap was forced on him and he had to get back to being a real GM and actually fuckin work!
It was easy to knock Smith, but he did everything to get us a cup, that was what everyone wanted, he did screw us in the long term with some of his trades to get that cup, but at least he got us a cup, but fuck face did nothing but cry when he got here about our horrible system that was bare, well he had all the money he could want, the ability to spend it, and his great brain, so what happened, we were going to win every year.
Not one cup is a failure, period, there is no excuse anymore, and so those who want to make one up, go ahead, he is stripping our system and not winning any cups, sorry but that is horrible. I am 61, yet I still want a good minor league system before anything else, that is the way to keep an organization a winner, then if you have a good GM, he makes savvy moves to get you over the hump, he has not delivered on this.
There are good people in the organization, guys who did build our minor league system, these guys need to be handed the keys to the kingdom now, if that does not happen you will not only see no cup, but you will see a poor team for years in the very near future with the way he is running it now. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am, but time will show I will be correct, I love the Rangers, and I have been a fan since the 1966/1967 season. I have seen this act before.
In fact I can not stand the arrogant bastard For people who were too young, when he was with Edmonton and he lost some of his big players due to cap issues, he stated he would win the cup every year if he was in New York, well how fuckin long has the prick been here and how many cups do we have?
+1
He did say that.
Quite a run and snowstorm he and Muckler were running in Edmonton (if you know what I mean).
I was surprised not to see a defenseman moved this weekend.
McIlrath and Allen have to make the team this year or go on waivers. McIlrath will almost certainly have value elsewhere. Like I've said before, I'd prefer to basically run with 7D with the seventh guy playing 50-60 games by rotating through the lineup to give guys rest. I doubt that would ever happen, though.
As Greg has posted, adding McIlrath to the mix would give us three slow defenseman, assuming Klein were the one to go.
Also, Brooks loves overexaggerating. I don't anticipate the team being the top of the East again, but I doubt they're a fringe playoff team.
Let's not forget the team was at its best the back half of the regular season - when Nash's production deteriorated and MSL died.
RE: I was surprised not to see a defenseman moved this weekend.
McIlrath and Allen have to make the team this year or go on waivers. McIlrath will almost certainly have value elsewhere. Like I've said before, I'd prefer to basically run with 7D with the seventh guy playing 50-60 games by rotating through the lineup to give guys rest. I doubt that would ever happen, though.
As Greg has posted, adding McIlrath to the mix would give us three slow defenseman, assuming Klein were the one to go.
Also, Brooks loves overexaggerating. I don't anticipate the team being the top of the East again, but I doubt they're a fringe playoff team.
Let's not forget the team was at its best the back half of the regular season - when Nash's production deteriorated and MSL died.
Almost never mentioned is Hunwick -- I like what I saw of him.
it sure did, but from what we can gather from sort of disparate clues, they had a lot more cooking Friday than they served up Saturday. But they should still be able to move a D or something else for cap room/prospect opportunities.
RE: RE: For those up in arms about the Hagelin trade:
With that said, I wouldn't be shocked if there was a desire to change the locker room a bit as well.
so the answer to improving the lockerroom is trading the hardest working player on the team? yet another guy that plays a great two way game an helps kill penalties?
and while his postseason wasn't good - wasnt it crystal clear to anyone with a clue that MSL killed that entire line?
the talbot deal pisses me off too only because we had two 2s from Calgary and I'm sure we could have got buffalo's #21. sather overplayed his hand and ended up with a dildo in his ass when lehner and hamilton got dealt. but this is like losing Boyle last season... the hagelin deal still has me dumbfounded.
trading klein talbot and glass an cutting msl would have solved our 2015-2016 and probably 2017 cap issues. that was the crystal clear way to go -- somehow hagelin was dealt and we don't even have duclair here to replace him
and all this in an offseason where there isn't going to be a gamechanger. we were a presidents trophy winner with a fuckload of injuries in the postseason built to win now.... NOW we decide to recoup some (irrelevant) picks? fuck sather
there were 10 legit playoff teams before this week in the east but Boston just took themselves out. now there is 9 - and Ottawa columbus and Florida in that group don't have a lot of depth.
but we took a serious step back this week. I do think AV knows how to win in the regular season though. just not sure with the 3rd and 4th lines wacked with incompetency the past two offaeasons that this team can give itself another chance. I don't know. as Brett said - Its becoming a two line team with a good defense/goalie and others have better top lines
Agreed, Phil. I thought a package of Talbot and one of Hags/Klein could have fetched quite a bit (and was told from someone it could have fetched nine, but I don't believe this information to be near certain, so take it with a grain of salt). Perhaps they think they can move Girardi/Staal, or even have Klein for half the year and move him to bring up Skjei. Still a lot of time. Can't help but be a bit disappointed overall. My comments on the D are more thinking out loud,
MAB: I'm not sure if NHL coaches desire a locker room as chummy as the Rangers seem to be. A desire to shake things up could have played a role. Trading one of the more well-liked guys in the room changes the dynamics a bit.
And I think the team probably views Fast/Lindberg as comparable players to Hagelin.
With that said, I would have tried to sign Hagelin for a one (or preferably two) year deal at $3.5M. Moving up and getting Etem seems an inferior alternative than keeping Hagelin for a year.
MAB: I'm not sure if NHL coaches desire a locker room as chummy as the Rangers seem to be. A desire to shake things up could have played a role. Trading one of the more well-liked guys in the room changes the dynamics a bit.
not attacking you - but if this is the mindset it makes no sense. I thought we'd win the metro again this year before this weekend - now after basically giving cam and hagelin (and MSL) away... not so sure. window is closing fast folks.
if some dipshit in the front office this a 'too chummy' clubhouse is the reason a team lost two home games in the ECF... despite missing a top line Wing and several defenders playing with serious injuries... after winning a presidents cup and coming back from 1-3 on the capitals
...then resign now you fucking moron
now if there are internal replacements for hagelin that werent there for Klein or even Staal post July 1..... I vehemently disagree...
but at least in the latter case we aren't putting this franchise in the hands of gutt feelings and bullshit nonsense.
Despite his speed, Hagelin has still never scored 20 goals in a season.
He scored 19 goals in 101 games this season.
Him leaving is no indication the door is shutting. Not to mention, it's June and the return for Hags was fine with reinforcements already in the system before free agency even begins.
all gone with not a thing to show for it. please with etem.
is sky falling? no, but I no longer consider us the favorites in the metro. maybe July 1 changes things - we do have a surplus of defenders, I just think our mgmt team vastly overplayed their hand with talbot and got caught realing when dougie Hamilton unexpectedly got dealt.
hagelin doesn't play powerplay and was one of our best PKrs. hardest working guy on the team. this trade sucks. I know we all root for the laundry but it's guys like hagelin that have made me fall in love with this team.
MAB: I'm not sure if NHL coaches desire a locker room as chummy as the Rangers seem to be. A desire to shake things up could have played a role. Trading one of the more well-liked guys in the room changes the dynamics a bit.
not attacking you - but if this is the mindset it makes no sense. I thought we'd win the metro again this year before this weekend - now after basically giving cam and hagelin (and MSL) away... not so sure. window is closing fast folks.
Didn't you just pick the Islanders to win the division a week ago?
rangers to win when it matters. have we not learned by now regular season isn't all that big a deal - just get in in a way that doesn't have you on the road every single round
Jaesper Fast had as many goals as MSL and Hagelin combined in the playoffs while Talbot never played.
The going rate for a backup goalie in only a third rounder yet slats got three picks. The return was great. Haglein has already been replaced and the Rangers spent two picks last year on goalies and just traded Haggerty (a freebee college free agent) for a backup.
The Rangers are fine and the door is not closing b/c they lost a 26 year old who never scored 20 goals, a 41 year old with one foot in the hockey grave and backup goalie.
There have been a handful of articles that discussed the desire to
Change up the locker room a bit. Hagelin was pretty obviously moved for cap reasons - but theit seemed to be a desire to make a bit of a change. There was the ability to keep Hagelin with a bit of maneuvering, especially for this year.
Also, look at the video below if you don't think teams trade guys for idiotic reasons (culture, sleeping with someone's wife, etc.). The fact the Rangers signs sleds like Glass for toughness makes me think there's a possibility they wanted to shake things up. Bruins discussing Seguin - ( New Window )
The Rangers very likely misplayed their hand and didn't maximize the value of an asset - something I think they've done far too often the 18 months.
Talbot was the consensus prize on the goaltending market - yet Lehner fetched more than he did. Then Calgary made a trade... Edmonton traded two picks, and the market evaporated.
so they got better than edmontons #33 and the defender
they did better than Ottawa did for their unproven guy?
they did better than getting calgarys two second rounders?
no. it was arrogant nonsense - we all knew when they waited as long as they did it would blow up on them.
regardless ... hopefully Hank stays healthy. and we all trust allaire to work with the new backup to get him up to speed.
the real crushing blow was giving up hagelin for an inferior player. yes, to your point hagelin was replaced..... with a lesser player. where does this leave us?
And Sather seemed to have an obsession with ensuring Talbot went out
the real crushing blow was giving up hagelin for an inferior player. yes, to your point hagelin was replaced..... with a lesser player. where does this leave us?
With a younger player, more cap space and the ability to promote from within.
You really thought the whole roster was coming back? They'll be more changes coming.
Did you want to send him to Florida for Hayes brother? So the Panthers get a solid goalie with that growing power and the Rangers can't afford Hayes?
The Rangers got three picks for a backup goalie. End of story
Like Phil said, Gorton's demeanor was much different than we often see. And his comments were more damning than his body language.
I'd have no issue trading him to the Islanders or Flyers if that were the best offer on the table. Neither Florida or Buffalo are even in the division.
And if the team were that damn worried about him burning them, they should have sat the guy who gave up six goals twice in the ECF down and asked him who he'd waive his NMC for instead.
JB @JB_HockeyTalk 21h21 hours ago
The Florida Panthers were believed to be offering two 3rd round picks, a 5th round pick, and Jimmy Hayes for Cam Talbot.
That's the real way to replace Hagelin. A guy who had a really similar season to Hagelin's. I like Etem and think he'll do well for us, but Hayes' production essentially rivals Hagelin's...and in fewer games. AND we would've gotten 3rd rounders. Never mind the first rounder, which DARREN DREGER CONFIRMED.
Sather screwed the pooch. No other way to say it. Fuck Talbot staying in the conference (not division, CONFERENCE). It's not a big deal, especially since he'd be backing up Luongo. And if Sather has so much confidence in Talbot's ability that he could turn around Florida, why the hell would he trade him, let alone for cents on the dollar? If anything, you can trade him at the trading deadline and get a king's ransom for goalie-needy teams.
I would've thought the team could have gotten a second at the deadline
The Rangers made it clear they were going to trade him, though (and almost had to because of the cap, anyway). They lost a lot of leverage. I wonder if they could have fetched a 2016 first if they waited until today and at least pretended they may have held onto him.
Maybe you end up with nothing if you try for a 1st Rounder in 2016.
Some fans are too hung up on the 2nd Round IMO. Heck, the Rangers just traded for Etem who was 1st Rounder. Hiw come people aren't excited? Probably b/c, like I've said before (any manynof you already know this) you can almost throw out the Round for the NHL draft after the first 10-12 picks. This isn't the NFL draft including young men north of 20 years of age. These are a bunch boys in the 17-18 range and we've seen how often these picks miss.
The Rangers early round draft history has been scary bad with a few hits. For every Kreider there are many misses while Buch, DuClair were 3rd rounders, Graves is in the pipeline as a 4th Rounder and Fast went in Round 6.
The more picks the better for the NHL draft as i see it. If the higher picks were so great how come we're more excited about Buch and Graves rather than and Tambelini and McIlrath?
In 72 AHL games he's scored 37 goals and 75 points.
In 74 NHL games he's scored 12 goals and 21 points.
Even if he isn't a top six forward, 15 goals and 30 points is not an unreasonable expectation, nor is out of line to say that a 20 goal, 40 point player isn't lurking in there somewhere.
Just as a point of reference, over the last two seasons, here are J.T. Miller's numbers:
In 72 AHL games he's scored 37 goals and 75 points.
In 74 NHL games he's scored 12 goals and 21 points.
Even if he isn't a top six forward, 15 goals and 30 points is not an unreasonable expectation, nor is out of line to say that a 20 goal, 40 point player isn't lurking in there somewhere.
Just as a point of reference, over the last two seasons, here are J.T. Miller's numbers:
Islander fans seem happy with that return - Reinhart was overdrafted to start with and hasn't progressed the way they wanted. I don't think that's a good comp for Talbot.
It is funny that the Bruins only received an extra second rounder for Hamilton compared to Reinhart, though. Apparently the Bruins really wanted him out West (and not to EDM) and didn't even do a good job of letting teams know he was available. Total fucking clowns.
RE: I'd have taken the Hayes trade if we could cope with the cap hit.
But that's the entire point: they weren't taking on salary, they have cap issues. That's why Hags got moved.
All this talk of sending him out of conference seems silly.
I agree. I buy that speculation the least - especially because FL/BUF are likely a few years away from being true contenders.
Trading Hagelin puts more pressure on the continued development of Hayes/Miller. I'm not as down on the Hagelin trade as I was when I first heard of it - I would have liked to got that second straight up for him.
Maybe you end up with nothing if you try for a 1st Rounder in 2016.
Some fans are too hung up on the 2nd Round IMO. Heck, the Rangers just traded for Etem who was 1st Rounder. Hiw come people aren't excited? Probably b/c, like I've said before (any manynof you already know this) you can almost throw out the Round for the NHL draft after the first 10-12 picks. This isn't the NFL draft including young men north of 20 years of age. These are a bunch boys in the 17-18 range and we've seen how often these picks miss.
The Rangers early round draft history has been scary bad with a few hits. For every Kreider there are many misses while Buch, DuClair were 3rd rounders, Graves is in the pipeline as a 4th Rounder and Fast went in Round 6.
The more picks the better for the NHL draft as i see it. If the higher picks were so great how come we're more excited about Buch and Graves rather than and Tambelini and McIlrath?
And this was a quality thought, and something I discussed with another BBI'er prior to Talbot's trade- would you rather have had two seconds from EDM or Buffalo's 21st? The NHL is such a crapshoot I'd have preferred the two picks. These are guys usually 3-4 years (and often 20-30 pounds) away from contributing. The talent gap between a guy in the 20's and 40's is probably minuscule. And it seems likely the Rangers got a guy they had in the top 15-20 at 41.
Currently (they're running over as is if you map out the RFAs and depth additions required), and after this season when their UFAs/RFAs get pricey they'll need the space.
We've known since last offseason a core player would be moved, even if Glass and Talbot et al were moved. They literally can't keep everyone, there's always tough choices to make under a cap.
Of all their core players, which one would you move now or a year from now? I think Hags was the obvious choice, in reality. He is a third liner and they have prospects lined up to take that roster spot in the relative near future.
At the same time, this is why many questioned the DG extension, and signing Dan Boyle.
The deterioration in possession is weird because he played mostly with Hayes, who seemed to push possession more than Hagelin according to Hockey Analysis's stats. Blueseat Blogs - ( New Window )
to replace a player like Hagelin. As much as I like him, his limitations are very obvious (no goals in the last two rounds while we were desperate for scoring). It's true that some past mistakes in contracts may have put us in this spot. But working with what we've got, Hagelin was the logical odd man out. And now we trust guys like Fast and Lindberg to fill that 3rd line spot.
Despite sentimentality towards Hags, I'm ok with that deal and the logic of it. Talbot is a bit more frustrating and feels like we botched that. Although Gorton did mention it felt like the offers were changing seemingly by the minute. Seemed like an odd situation to maneuver.
There's still upside in Etem. Building a 3rd line with him and Hayes is a solid start. The article mentions giving them primarily offensive zone starts. But we've gotta find a way to build a 4th line that we can trust in the defensive zone, the way we had in 2014. That pretty much comes down to Tanner Glass, unfortunately. Got to go!
You can't just look at is what we got back, you HAVE to consider the cap considerations. No way this team is better with a $4 million/year Haglin if it means not re-signing Stef and Kreider.
I get the move and I like the direction of the team. I assume Brass, Kreider, Hayes, Miller, Fast and Stef will all be as good or better than last year. That alone make the team better as a whole. MSL and Haglin's production can be replaced.
Hagelin was just about to enter the NHL at Etem's age. The probability Etem turns into a top six winger is low, but we'll view him in a different light than disappointed Ducks fans who expected much more.
They're definitely banking up Etem's potential upside
They've been watching him since scouting him for the draft five years ago. I think his cap hit will be ~$1M versus ~$4M for Hags, and collectively believe they'll have enough growth and talent on the roster to make up for moving him.
Etem in that roster spot, Lindberg in Sheppard's roster spot?
I thought the Rangers were gonna draft Etem in `10
some of you may or may not remember I said I wasn't impressed with the likes of Dubinsky, Cally, Hags etc. I didn't see it when you guys were praising them. I was a huge believer in the fact that Lundqvist was the reason the Rags were good. Then those players got good playing with each other. Slowly something changed as the core of these young guys are gone. Dubkinsky, Cally, Hags all gone. Go back to Tytun and its a bit of a head scratcher that the home grown talent is playing elsewhere.
I think it's clear the core players they've kept are superior to those they traded, and/or they chose to not massively overpay (Cally) and double down on a mistake.
some of you may or may not remember I said I wasn't impressed with the likes of Dubinsky, Cally, Hags etc. I didn't see it when you guys were praising them. I was a huge believer in the fact that Lundqvist was the reason the Rags were good. Then those players got good playing with each other. Slowly something changed as the core of these young guys are gone. Dubkinsky, Cally, Hags all gone. Go back to Tytun and its a bit of a head scratcher that the home grown talent is playing elsewhere.
Are you speaking about 2011-2012? I'm in total agreement - that team was not nearly as good as the #1 seed indicated. I never felt like they were going to win a Cup. All those guys you listed are quality support players, but lacked the talent to carry a team.
I'm starting to think I've been overrating the defensive core. Girardi is really not good. I think he can be a #4 defenseman, but he's paid and played like a top pair d-man.
I truly believe Sather can't help himself any longer
The Moby Dick analogies are cliche but accurate. If we just kept all of our youth this team would be a juggernaut and much deeper than it is right now. The way he tosses around first rounders as if they have no value is mind boggling.
I know he's essentially in charge of deciding when to retire himself so I won't get too worked up about it. I just hope it's soon for all our sakes.
The team had a tremendous opportunity to keep the window ajar for the length of Lundqvist's deal at the 2014 deadline.
Trading Callahan and Girardi for picks+prospects (rumored to be a first and a quality prospect for both), re-signing Stralman, etc... I think they have a year or two left of being one of the top five or so teams, and then slowly decline from there.
But even that's hard to feel good about in a league where the Cup champions didn't make the playoffs and the Bruins disappeared overnight.
RE: I truly believe Sather can't help himself any longer
The Moby Dick analogies are cliche but accurate. If we just kept all of our youth this team would be a juggernaut and much deeper than it is right now. The way he tosses around first rounders as if they have no value is mind boggling.
I know he's essentially in charge of deciding when to retire himself so I won't get too worked up about it. I just hope it's soon for all our sakes.
It's a huge issue - coaches by their nature have to be short-term oriented. GM's are supposed to be the long-term thinkers who care about three to five years from now. And Sather hasn't.
Dubinsky wound up being a better player than Callahan. Hard to have much remorse over either deal, though. Dubi was part of what got us Nash and Callahan was just never going to be worth the deal he got. Sucked losing the picks but MSL did help get us pretty close to a Cup last year.
caught lightning in a bottle with the passing of his mother. Otherwise its a bad move. Rags lost a ton of grit with Dubinsky and Cally not on the team. Add the fact that Nash disappears and its an issue.
I'll never be convinced that second #1 was necessary to close that deal. Yzerman bested Glen in that trade and unfortunately that has become a theme in recent negotiations. Opposing GM's can smell the stink of desperation on Sather or he's simply losing his fastball. Either way the sooner he goes the better.
The Rangers got lucky not to face Boston, having Price injured, etc. more than any inspiration from MSL (and finally getting needed rest). If they were inspired by his mother's death last year, they should have been equally inspired by his own this year.
Scuba diver Callahan has sucked in the playoffs. I'd love a guy like Dubinsky on the team, though.
Nash had a good post-season. Much better than the past two as a Ranger - and not just in a 'he backchecks' way.
Dubinsky is a very good second liner. He's good defensively, has a lot of sandpaper, and with the exception of the disasterous 2011-12 season is a very consistent 55 points/82 game scorer. The problem wasnt really Cally or Dubi -- it was the lack of first liners. If we had already had Nash and Brassard, Stepan and Kreider were older etc., Dubi would be great here. And Callahan was moved in very unique circumstances. Both are missed.
Also, I think Fast is Hag's replacement. By pedigree, Fast actually has the better offensive upside, and is already 80+% of the skater/def forward that Hags is. And I love me some Hags.
Call it a $3M cap savings on Etem over Hags, another $700k for the goalie switch and they've saved almost $4M under the cap. I think they'll need to find another $1M space if they want to keep 14/F and 7/D
Call it a $3M cap savings on Etem over Hags, another $700k for the goalie switch and they've saved almost $4M under the cap. I think they'll need to find another $1M space if they want to keep 14/F and 7/D
Should be able to accomplish that with Glass. But the issue is that we simply have too many defensemen right now -- in fact if we dont move anyone off the backline, we lose some kids to waivers come September. So someone has to be moved - my guess is Klein, but we'll see.... and Klein's deal is quite team friendly so i really hope he is not given away.
Glass will be given MSL's A before he's moved off the team.
in addition to solving the cap crunch, I can see why the brass seems content with the trade(s).
MAB, as we often say it appears the team holds Glass in higher regard than we do. Which is why I've been saying Hags appeared likely gone in trade, and one D-man (Klein or Boyle, I hope).
I'm optimistic McIl earns a roster spot this Fall, Lindberg as well, and that Skjei will be up sometime during the season. Add them to Etem, and you've got an excellent infusion on paper.
Reading opinions on him, he is apparently a sniper. Doesn't quite use his size the way you'd want, but gets to the front of the net and has an elite shot. Apparently a very good skater, but with a weird stride. Not a great possession player necessarily.
that despite only dressing 11 forwards in game 7 ... they gave him 6 minutes (and he still had a -1 in that time) -- burning out the top lines.
There is not a reasonable explanation out there for valuing him highly. He's a 'physical player' that sucks at hockey -- the game is too fast now to have this kind of guy on your roster. And we need to beat teams by rolling 4 quality lines - our top lines cannot match up with other teams that have benefited from multiple lottery picks the past 10 years.
Relative to being in Charlotte, that's pretty high regard.
I don't disagree, but until a player can demonstrate he can replace Glass on the ice, AV will keep him around (or until the front office sees it's time to move him out). He must be demonstrating some intangibles including the physicality that keeps him in the good graces.
Are you referring to the AHL Charlotte Checkers Brett?
he hits people, relatively hard. Only other forward we have like that is Kreider, who at times has a mental hangup because of the penalties. Zucc was 3rd among forwards in hits, Brass 4th, and Fast 5th -- none of them hurt you. It's like boxing vs. olympic boxing.
Glass would be less valued if the D and/or Miller, Hayes, and Nash took the body more. 13 feet of Hayes + Nash combined gets out-hit by 4.2 feet of Zucc. Staal and McDonagh could do a bit less massaging and a bit more banging.
I think its pretty safe to say everyone on this roster
I think is more liked to crack the top 9 out of camp. Hayes to the wing, Lindberg to 3C, Moore remaining at 4C.
See below for hit stats. Glass is one of the most prolific hitters in the league when you adjust for minutes. 8th in the NHL in hits/min for guys with at least 100 hits. Link - ( New Window )
I'm hoping they can get Stepan below $6, but I'm not optimistic - I think he could get over $7 on the open market (him and ROR are much closer players than the relative contract projections for the two suggest). Hard to quibble with any of your projections, unfortunately... Suggests the team will make another move, IMO.
Kreider had a full season of quality play (17 goals in only 66 games) and two quality playoff runs in him prior to his deal last season - also was a year further from his draft year than Miller was. I'm hoping those factors get him below $2M.
Kreider got two years, $4.95M.
I've historically been quite shitty at projecting deals anyway.
Check total points and +/- over the last two seasons. I know one was a UFA vs RFA but I see little chance Step signs below $6M. Keeping him to $6M could prove difficult. I wouldn't be shocked to see the final contract carry a $6.5 AAV.
I recall reading folks on HF/Twitter clamoring for Stastny - which confused me because I think him and Stepan are comparable players.
I think Zucc could have gotten $6M+ if he were a UFA in this market, and took a discount to stay with the Rangers.
I'm a huge critic of handing out NMC's the way Sather has, but I'd support giving it to Stepan if we could get him for $6M or under. A $6.5M number seems appropriate given his RFA status - anything lower would almost be a favor.
Stepan's AAV will depend on term. More years, more AAV.
Give him some massively frontloaded term, no NMC. Then if we want we can move him in a few years to a team more interested in salary than cap #. Though I'm happy to have him as a 15 year Ranger. I dont get why some people were saying "Hags or Stepan". Stepan is one of the core guys with McDonagh and Kreider.
I think Brassard is a better skater than Stepan and I also think he has slightly better hands. Stepan has an elite hockey IQ, though.. which Brassard certainly does not.
I'd take Step but I do think it's close.
I think Brassard's got a bit better skill in the offensive zone.
2 years ago it was Brassard, Zucc, Pouliot. Not trusted defensively. 20% of of Brassard's faceoffs were in the defensive zone.
Last year it was the Hayes line. Usually with Hags (~73%), but then about 70% with Fast, Miller, and MSL -- two rookies and a dying vet (though Fast was good defensively). Hayes was ok defensively but couldnt win a draw to save his life. <20% of Hayes's faceoffs were in the defensive zone.
If we could build a proper 3rd line with a good faceoff man and two defensively responsible wingers, then Stepan could carry a much lower burden in starting in the defensive zone, and thereby score more. And guess what! Lindberg's calling card is faceoff work and (because he's a Swede) two-way play. If all goes well, Lindbeg-Fast-___(Miller?) will be that more traditional 3rd line.
but Stepan uses what he has better. Brassard got easier minutes -- his offensive-defensive-neutral zone F/O split was 7.3 - 5.3 - 4.6. Stepan was 6.5 - 5.5 - 6.1. All that even though Brassard is a WAY better faceoff man.
BTW, can we bring in a fucking faceoff coach or something?
Brassard still feels like an unfinished product. His development was hindered by injuries early on.
I'm hoping a fresh start helps Etem in a similar manner.
RE: Faceoffs - I've always thought this was something you could get to pedestrian (45%ish) fairly quickly. It makes no sense. Stepan is actually the biggest contributor in this regard due to the sheer number of faceoffs he takes relative to Hayes, who has a worse %.
but if Miller plays with Hayes or Stepan, we should have Miller take the draws.
Centers should be over 50% because of all the faceoffs taken by non-centers. It's significant -- last year of our 4917 F/Os, non-centers took 9+% of our faceoffs.
So you'd play Hayes or Miller on the 4th line? I wouldnt.
Good point. Poor counting on my side. Given the skill sets in play, I'd keep Etem on 3rd and Fast on 4th.
Given the depth of talent, it feels SOOO important to dump Glass and roll 4 lines. We are inevitably going to have at least one really talented winger on the 4th line, and given what Moore can do with able linemates and minutes, it's such a shame to let the existence of Glass damn that unit to sheltered minutes.
but if Miller plays with Hayes or Stepan, we should have Miller take the draws.
Centers should be over 50% because of all the faceoffs taken by non-centers. It's significant -- last year of our 4917 F/Os, non-centers took 9+% of our faceoffs.
I made this point to a friend during the playoffs. Miller as a wing on one side of Stepan and taking the draws makes a ton of sense.
I think he's going to be a big time 3C for us. Defense, faceoffs and even good offensive production. A new Nemchinov.
I've read multiple people say that he's been ready for the NHL for over a year. I'm excited. Swap out Glass for me/pjcas/a traffic cone and the team has four good lines again.
Brassard-Nash-Zucc: this line just works. A set up man, a goal scorer, and something in between. Notably, it's really just the Brass-Zucc-Pouliot line on steroids.
Stepan-Hayes-Kreider: key here is Hayes's patience and vision, which is really remarkable. Hayes dishes to two guys who can bury it, and is relieved of the stress of being a 3C
Lindberg-Fast-Miller: good defensively with the Swede, and Miller's game is growing. I think this will end up a hitting, hard working 3rd line that can really score.
Moore-two other guys: Etem has to earn a spot. I remember at one point last year Moore was +2 while Glass was -18, which essentially meant Moore was approx +20 without Glass. Playing 4th line minutes. What a fucking tragic waste of a great 4th line center.
Boy, everyone else is ready to pencil in Etem huh?
he's such a big key to this season. We've lost some guys but I think we can reasonably expect jumps in production from Hayes, Kreider, JT, and Fast. That would go a long way.
Gorton or Clark said they think he can be a top nine forward right
their offseason isnt making much sense... though they did get a nice haul in the long-run for Lucic i think
I just can't believe the articles stating that they only shopped Hamilton to 8 or 9 teams. You're in the middle of blowing things up - who gives a shit who you're fucking helping? You aren't competing for a Cup with these moves. Maximize value.
but it just goes to show what a forward who racks up his will get on the market. He doesnt score. He doesnt block shots. He gets his ass kicked by grade C fighters and real players. He's not even that annoying as a pest, though at times he has been very effective at drawing minors. But he hits everything that moves.
Note it is the 2017 draft, although unlike the NFL, future NHL draft picks dont tend to be discounted in value by a round.
RE: RE: RE: Gorton or Clark said they think he can be a top nine forward right
I'd take Snow's past 18 months over Sather's, if that's worth anything...
Kind of unfair. It's easy to sit back and slowly get better. Sather had a team that was ready for its turn at the spotlight, and he got to one Cup finals and another ECF. If we win a cup he looks brilliant, doesnt he? Well if we had not gotten decimated with injuries we'd have beaten TB in all likelihood and been probably 50-50 odds in the finals (no worse than say 2:3). Zucc, McD, Staal... just killed.
I hate deals that are Cup or bust. The Rangers were not in a part of their development where they needed to make that push. But when they traded for MSL/Yandle, their 'peak window' got shorter. An awful lot of things need to go right for their window to be open for 4-5 years, IMO, when they could have made a handful of moves to have a peak window for a much longer time period while only marginally impairing their ability to 'win-now'.
The Rangers got Yandle for essentially what the Flames traded for Hamilton. We all discussed the risk when they traded for MSL, one that I did think raised the ceiling on that team but was also poor asset allocation. And as I've posted before, first line talent becomes available quite often without the risk of that talent getting Alzheimers.
Girardi/Boyle over Stralman, Glass, etc. were all bad moves. You maximize your chance of winning a Cup by widening your window more than maximizing your probability in any given year or two, IMO.
Also, I think Snow has done a superb job the past 18 months, and my comment was initially more of a compliment to the job he's done than a shot at Sather (which I've taken plenty of). Taking smart risks in the draft with talented guys with question marks in Ho-Sang, dealing an asset they no longer like for multiple picks in Ho-Sang, and taking advantage of teams in poor cap positions when trading for Leddy and Boychuk.
That's what I said - my dad said he doesn't think anyone wants him at his age/cap hit.
Maybe, but Chara only has 3 years left on his deal at $7mil/season. It's not a Marian Hossa contract or anything. Not sure what the cap situations are for a Pittsburgh or Philly, but i'd consider taking a look if i were them. Especially if Boston would take back some a somewhat bad contract (albeit less years and salary) in return - like a Kunitz + a first or 2nd round pick (which would assumed to be in low to mid 20s)
I hate deals that are Cup or bust. The Rangers were not in a part of their development where they needed to make that push. But when they traded for MSL/Yandle, their 'peak window' got shorter. An awful lot of things need to go right for their window to be open for 4-5 years, IMO, when they could have made a handful of moves to have a peak window for a much longer time period while only marginally impairing their ability to 'win-now'.
The Rangers got Yandle for essentially what the Flames traded for Hamilton. We all discussed the risk when they traded for MSL, one that I did think raised the ceiling on that team but was also poor asset allocation. And as I've posted before, first line talent becomes available quite often without the risk of that talent getting Alzheimers.
Girardi/Boyle over Stralman, Glass, etc. were all bad moves. You maximize your chance of winning a Cup by widening your window more than maximizing your probability in any given year or two, IMO.
Also, I think Snow has done a superb job the past 18 months, and my comment was initially more of a compliment to the job he's done than a shot at Sather (which I've taken plenty of). Taking smart risks in the draft with talented guys with question marks in Ho-Sang, dealing an asset they no longer like for multiple picks in Ho-Sang, and taking advantage of teams in poor cap positions when trading for Leddy and Boychuk.
Good post. I agree (and said so back then) that the risk/reward on the MSL deal and the Yandle deal did not warrant making the trades. Neither was going to increase the chance to win the Cup enough to warrant as you said the narrowing of the Cup window.
that they should have traded Chara... not Boychuk... when they had to pare salary. So many teams get attached to guys well past their prime.
*Looks at Girardi*
By the way, injuries are way down the list of reasons for the team losing in the ECF IMO. Lundqvist gave up six goals twice... Forwards disappeared for two of them... Horrible coaching. The job AV did has not received an appropriate level of criticism IMO.
but it just goes to show what a forward who racks up his will get on the market. He doesnt score. He doesnt block shots. He gets his ass kicked by grade C fighters and real players. He's not even that annoying as a pest, though at times he has been very effective at drawing minors. But he hits everything that moves.
Note it is the 2017 draft, although unlike the NFL, future NHL draft picks dont tend to be discounted in value by a round.
Makes me hopeful we can get something for Glass. If we got a third rounder for him, it'd be one of the best trades in recent memory
The problem is AV probably has no interest in dealing Glass...
Andrew Gross @AGrossRecord 22s22 seconds ago
Rangers have extended qualifying offers to eight of their nine RFAs. No QO for D Conor Allen. Dylan McIlrath does receive a QO.
I disagree that Sather made any "Cup or bust" deals. He traded shitty #1s and Duclair. Chicago has gotten no production from a #1 since 2007 (Kane) and LA since 2008 (DD) save Pearson who was ok in the last playoffs. We'll see on Duclair; I'm not sold on him for the same reasons he fell to our 3rd #3 pick. Cup or bust would have been something like trading Kreider for Lucic plus a good UFA (just making things up). The future is bright IMO.
Hamilton is going to get $7 million dollars, whereas we got Yandle for $2.9 million. Every report says Boston mishandled that trade.
Stralman was a fuckup. I was the captain of the sign Strals/trade Girardi brigade.
We're just going to disagree on why we lost in the ECF. If McDonagh and Staal could move Hank doesnt let in so many. Zuccarello has been the steadying force on this team for 2 years -- he's our slump buster, and they guy who makes plays when the other forwards dont know what to do.
Ho-Sang has maturity problems so lets wait on that one. IMO the Isles are going to quickly regret giving Johhny B all that money. I'll wait til Garth wins a few playoff rounds before I congratulate him on anything.
If McDonagh and Staal could move Hank doesnt let in so many. Zuccarello has been the steadying force on this team for 2 years -- he's our slump buster, and they guy who makes plays when the other forwards dont know what to do.
When did McD actually break his foot?
Staal's injury didnt see all that serious - he actually played well at times in the postseason, just was inconsistent. If it was that bad an injury, wouldnt they have shelved him late in that regular season and maybe lived with him missing the Pittsburgh series before coming back? His lack of any kind of offensive game isnt a result of his ankle.
Agreed Zuccs was a killer. Take Johnson off their 2nd line (if only he'd broken his hand a round sooner) and that changes their composition quite a bit too.
But bottom line we were shutout twice in the final 3 games by a goalie that could barely move (he may not have full fledged torn his groin until game 2 SCF... but it was pretty badly damaged throughout the ECF too). You cant blame injuries for that.
and just not sure how significant an injury Staal had here. Did he get hurt in game 80 against NJ? Did AV have him out there in meaningless regular season games just to win a Presidents Trophy after already wrapping up the division?
Zuccs clearly hurt, and not having McD for game 7 was a killer.
But this is a team that struggled badly to score goals the entire playoffs. (of course Yandle was pretty badly hurt for a while there which hurt). They weren't 'impressive' in any round. So clearly some shake-ups are needed this offseason - i just dont really like making Hagelin the de facto fall guy. And they overplayed their hand on Talbot.
Is what it is. Goes without saying 2015-2016 is a huge year for this group, or we could be Boston next offseason with Sather likely stepping down.
its hard to sit here and point at injuries as the reason the season ended -- when we were a somewhat fluky goal from Kreider away from getting bounced by the Caps in 5.
Love the heart and the fight of this team in winning 4 elimination games.... its why i want this group to win so bad. But is it talented enough? Has Sather fucked up too many times in these precious window years? I dont know.
I think the need to replenish with young guys is more imperative for the Rangers than the Kings/Blackhawks. Both teams have far superior top-end talent, so they can get away with inferior depth. Looking at post-lockout Cup winners since the lockout, McDonagh (2013-2014 McDonagh, not this past year's version) would have been the #1 guy on only Pittsburgh and Carolina. And while any single first round pick is likely to bust, you still need them to compete (or sign college/European guys to ELC's, as both NYR and CHI have done).
I think the MSL trade was Cup or bust. Yandle could be a bit different if he re-signs.
My point with the Hamilton trade was that this type of elite talent becomes available far too often to justify making the move for an aging player. Seven of the 23 recent All-Star forwards played their first NHL game elsewhere (so this ignores a guy like Forsberg).
And McDonagh got hurt in game four or five while Lundqvist gave up six in games two and three (and the immobility of our defensemen had nothing to do with that awful poke check to Stamkos or that soft goal in OT). I hate criticizing Lundqvist, and he's certainly not top of the list, but he is supposed to be the best goaltender in the world (a title with diminished value with goaltender commoditization and anointed more for consistently being top five rather than always superior to everyone else, but I digress). He could have stole the series and didn't. Is he to blame? No. But the Blackhawks had their top players step up while McDonagh and Lundqvist didn't (or in McDonagh's case, got to a point where he couldn't... but let's not forget how much he sucked all playoff long).
I definitely think injuries played a role, but I didn't walk away thinking the team would have certainly won at full health. As MAB said, Bishop was immobile and he didn't give up soft goals (like the first one Lundqvist gave up in game 7). I thought it was a fairly even series - I thought every team in the conference finals was fairly even. But the Lightning had their elite guys step up. The Rangers didn't. AV kept playing MSL when he shouldn't have. These things bother me a bit more than the injury situation.
RE: Snow - I liked the Ho-Sang move because it's the type of risk/reward a team in their position should make. It's why I thought the logic behind the Zherdev for Tyutin deal was sound (and Zherdev was much better here than people give him credit for, but that deal still didn't work out).
I guess i'm saying
MetsAreBack : 7:53 am : link : reply
its hard to sit here and point at injuries as the reason the season ended
Better way of saying what I'm trying to get at. Yeah, I wish we had full health and maybe things go differently... But the playoff Rangers weren't some dominant team that was derailed by injuries. I think they outplayed the Caps in the majority of the series, but they couldn't fucking score.
Also, Moore wasn't qualified by Arizona. I was a bit surprised - I thought he's shown himself to be an NHL defenseman. Underperforms his skills, but he was okay as a sixth guy.
Very interesting. Got the feeling he'd worn out his welcome with AV.
I think it's fair to suggest injuries very well may have cost NYR the Cup, but it's not strong enough to rest on our laurels and prevent us from making upgrades to the roster, imo.
which were the best 4 teams in the league for most of the year IMO --- all played the final few rounds with a shitload of injuries. It'd be one thing to moan our injuries while Tampa was healthy... but they dealt with some things too, and a goalie that was badly hurt.
Our team just couldnt score goals - and there wasnt a single reason for that. Sure, having injured defensemen that couldnt lead the fast break like maybe they could healthy played a part... so did a significant downgrade in the 4th line from a year ago... a really young, probably too young, 3rd line that was basically non-existent the entire postseason (Hayes had 4 points the entire playoffs)... Nash while better still only scored 4 fucking goals in 19 games which isnt close to good enough... Stepan had a nice 2-3 game stretch but was for the most part invisible... etc.
If this team is ever going to win a Cup guys have to start stepping up more than they have. Effort only gets you so far -- talent has to emerge.
Injuries accrue throughout the playoffs to all teams...
Chicago managed to win the Cup with injuries to Versteeg, Kruger, Shaw, Oduya, and I'd imagine more. Bishop was clearly laboring against the Rangers until fully tearing his groin in the SCFs. Tyler Johnson broke a finger and/or wrist, and apparently Kucherov was banged up. Hell, how many teams would love to attribute their 2014 playoff failures against the Rangers to injuries suffered by starting goaltenders and key players? Unfortunately, injuries happen and I'd imagine tend to normalize across the league over a large enough sample.
I'm also hesistate to dismiss the value of first round picks, as late within the round as they may be. These picks still represent significant value and can always be packaged alongside additional assets to bring back a considerable return. I'd also argue that the Rangers, having a dearth of bluechip talent in the system and with a relatively older team (although skewed by MSL/Nash/Henrik), have more of a need than some other clubs to perpetually stock the farm with fresh talent.
Trading a premium pick on occasion for a known commodity is within the realm of reason but trading these picks on a consistent basis is troublesome and leaves a void within the system. Sure, from our perspective the Rangers seem to have a nice enough young nucleus to supplement our older players but when looking around the league it becomes apparent that other organizations have larger and more talented young cores taking shape. The worst-case scenario remains sitting here in two years with no Cup to show and a new cluster of teams having emerged and passed the Rangers as the class of the league.
agree and its why i have been saying that this team has probably 2 maybe 3 more years window here before a rebuild is necessary.
Others such as giants2012 disagree and that's fine -- but when its apparent in 3 years that teams picking in the lottery the last 10 years like an Islanders, Florida, maybe a Montreal if they can add a Stamkos.... pass us... there is no shame in pulling a Bruins and getting those first round picks back and rebuilding this thing.
I'd rather do that than pull a Flyers or Wings and play make believe the last 5 years that either had a prayer of winning a Cup.
I think there are scenarios for upside - hitting on Skjei and Buchnevich, even having one of the recently drafted kids hit - that can extend the window. But these guys pretty much have to hit. Remember how high we've been on guys like Grachev, Dawes, Erixon, etc.? Tons of highly touted guys flop, and the team needs their top prospects to pan out to extend the window.
RE: Injuries accrue throughout the playoffs to all teams...
Hell, how many teams would love to attribute their 2014 playoff failures against the Rangers to injuries suffered by starting goaltenders and key players?
Yup, and I'd throw the 2015 Penguins into that mix too. Hell every one of those games was close despite Malkin playing at like 70% and 3 of their top 4 DMen out.
The Habs made it to the conference finals and a step before the next year, almost entirely on the back of Price.
if they were smart they would add a Stamkos since they struggle to score. Sure they have Pacioretty who is a legit first liner, but very little depth/stars (including Subban).
Which is why I'm surprised the Bruins totally blew it up with Rask who is a goalie I feel like can win a cup.
So, if I am the Rangers I don't blow it up while Hank is still playing at an elite level.
Goalies like Roy, Hasek, Quick, Brodeur, have won cups or gone far in the playoffs with fairly uninspiring lineups.
Well, I don't think Lundqvist is Roy/Hasek/Brodeur. And the value of an elite goaltender is smaller than ever. I don't think you'll see a goalie carry a team to a Cup the way you used to - you still need an elite lineup.
if you give this team realistically 3 more years (I think its peak window is another 2 years but i have no problem giving it one more year after that and see what happens)... Hank is what 37 years old? Even if you believed an elite goalie could win you a Cup -- and Montreal didnt really come close this year by the way -- odds are stacked that Hank would be all that much better than average by then.
I do wonder if dealing Hank instead of Talbot was considered this offseason. If they'd done that our window immediately extends beyond 2-3 years, albeit with significant downside risk if Talbot proves to have been an aberation. Oh well... if there's one guy i want to see win a Cup its Hank.
I said two years ago that they should trade Lundqvist
And you guys got all pissed off about it....but I still think it made the most sense long-term. You don't need a Lundqvist to win a Cup, and I actually have come to believe that having a goalie as your best player and big cap hit is probably counterproductive.
to a guy that's been my favorite player probably in any sport for a decade now. I understand what you're saying is rational - he's just one of those guys that transcends the uniform for me. A guy that even if he doesnt win us a Cup belongs in the rafters.
On a completely different topic: This Kings situation with Mike Richards is completely shady and way too odd in its timing. IT frees up $4 million in cap space for them. Where was this hammer last summer for Slava Voynov? What concrete proof do they have at this time to abrogate a contract 3 days before free agency?
And yes... I have an irrational hatred for the Kings
I'm torn on it. My head says the Rangers probably could have won a Cup by dealing Lundqvist for elite offensive talent and going with Talbot but my heart says fuck that.. we can still do it this way. We've been so close. A couple of tweaks and better luck and we could be right there again next season.
And two years we had no backup here. I suppose we could have made a run at Ryan Miller in free agency or something, but we certainly dont sniff a SCF without Hank's playoff performance last season.
Well, I don't think Lundqvist is Roy/Hasek/Brodeur. And the value of an elite goaltender is smaller than ever. I don't think you'll see a goalie carry a team to a Cup the way you used to - you still need an elite lineup.
Agree!!
RE: I said two years ago that they should trade Lundqvist
And you guys got all pissed off about it....but I still think it made the most sense long-term. You don't need a Lundqvist to win a Cup, and I actually have come to believe that having a goalie as your best player and big cap hit is probably counterproductive.
Agree and I too have been roasted for saying it. But it's a moot point. He has a rock solid "no move" clause that he will not void. Larry Brooks confirmed it to me in an email exchange last week.
RE: I said two years ago that they should trade Lundqvist
And you guys got all pissed off about it....but I still think it made the most sense long-term. You don't need a Lundqvist to win a Cup, and I actually have come to believe that having a goalie as your best player and big cap hit is probably counterproductive.
Respectfully, horse shit. Not on trading Lundqvuist -- the devil is in the details there. If we're getting back a top 10 center it's a fine move.
But the notion that there is some maximum amount you can pay a goalie, as opposed to other positions, has no basis in reality. An elite goalie can easily save you ~35-45+ goals over league average production based on S% alone (and I think that underestimates the impact). How many players are creating that kind of goal differential over league average (i.e. not just starting at zero)?
And as for the money, the difference between a high end goalie like Hank ($8.5) and what most teams pay for their goalies isnt that much. Chicago won despite Crawford, who they pay $6 -- is that $2.5 million all that relevant in a $70 million cap world? Do we win if we have Crawford or Jon Quick ($5.8) and Brandon Prust? Halak ($4.5) plus another Klein or Boyle?
I just dont think you can parse things that way, especially when you may have $10+ million in injured players at any one time. Moreover, you have million dollar differences in player salaries based solely on term. E.g. you might pay a guy 8 million per for 5 years, but because of age spread it over 8 years at 45 million bringing the AAV below 6 million. The $2.5 million difference between Hank's salary and good veteran goalie pay
Well, I don't think Lundqvist is Roy/Hasek/Brodeur. And the value of an elite goaltender is smaller than ever. I don't think you'll see a goalie carry a team to a Cup the way you used to - you still need an elite lineup.
You just saw Tim Thomas do it 5 years ago.
1.98 gaa and .940 save percent, that's similar to some of Roy's SC winning playoff performances.
Thomas is somewhat of an enigma as a late bloomer, maybe Thomas is why there was the interest level in Talbot, who knows, but you guys know Hank better than me, I always thought he was only a ring away from that Roy, Quick, Hasek, Brodeur, category.
I'm in the same boat as many of you; I've hypothesized that the best chance for the Rangers to win a Cup and build that sustainable juggernaut that we want was to have dealt Lundqvist for a king's ransom (npi).
In two years we've seen the emergence of an undrafted goaltender out of Alabama step right in for our injured future HOFer with the team having not missed a beat. We saw our future HOFer direct a losing effort against a hobbled Ben Bishop because the team in front of him was inferior to that iced by the Lightning. Clearly Lundqvist remains the superior goaltender but, as Brett mentioned, I think the incremental difference between an elite goaltender over your average starter is minimal compared to that of skaters. There are 30 starting NHL gigs in the world and there seem to be plenty of goaltenders that emerge each year to handle these spots at a very high level for varying amounts of time.
But in any event, the scenario of trading Henrik was only ever realistic within a vacuum that doesn't consider the personal element of managing an organization where people are rightly or wrongfully not always viewed as assets. Especially when considering who the owner of the Rangers happens to be, there was never a chance that ol' JD would allow the only face of the team that he could actually recognize to be dealt for hockey reasons. Now, as a fan I completely empathize and would be dissappointed myself if Henrik was traded, but then again I'm not paid however many million to make the difficult decisions that go beyond emotion.
puts Hank on their level. Thing about Hank is that he's been consistently a top 3 goalie, but I dont know that in any season he was recognized as clearly the best. His Vezina could have EASILY gone to Quick that year.
Was the same true for the others? Roy is a touch before my time being knowledgeable. I thought Hasek was clearly the best -- he was leading the league in S% by 10 points. Broduer is interesting. He was not top 5 in S% in 3 of his 4 Vezina seasons (he was 3rd in the other), and did not finish above 3rd in GAA any of those years either. Other guys could have won several of his Vezinas, and I always thought he was getting too many votes for leading the league in counting stats (starts, wins, shutouts; he was super human with respect to workload -- is the career game leader by like 25%!). He may not have been as good as 3 Cups, 4 Vezina's would indicate, but he's still a step above Hank.
They publicly said they wanted to get younger and mentioned 25 years old (or less) as their target, so maybe that arbitrary sand in the line is enough to value Jones over Talbot.
The discussion is whether we hypothetically should have traded him a few years ago.
Though a few years ago he was an impending UFA, so I dont know why anyone would have paid a king's ransom for him ... especially if you think you cant win paying a goalie that much.
Well, I don't think Lundqvist is Roy/Hasek/Brodeur. And the value of an elite goaltender is smaller than ever. I don't think you'll see a goalie carry a team to a Cup the way you used to - you still need an elite lineup.
You just saw Tim Thomas do it 5 years ago.
1.98 gaa and .940 save percent, that's similar to some of Roy's SC winning playoff performances.
Thomas is somewhat of an enigma as a late bloomer, maybe Thomas is why there was the interest level in Talbot, who knows, but you guys know Hank better than me, I always thought he was only a ring away from that Roy, Quick, Hasek, Brodeur, category.
I thought Boston had a really good team around him, but perhaps you're right. The Bruins may be the best comp in terms of a team with a lack of dominant scorers upfront.
Btw, I wouldn't put Quick in that category. I think he's a bit overrated, especially on a regular season basis.
Keeping Lundqvist still remains their best shot at winning.
The team has progressed quite a bit since the original discussion, IMO (and more than I anticipated at the time). And as others pointed out, he has a NMC (even though guys with NMC'S get moved all the time).
It's not as simple as swapping Lundqvist for say, Stamkos. You'd have to pencil in an average G ($4-5M) and then go from there. Do you want Hagelin and Niemi next year or Lundqvist?
solid, not spectacular. Who are their stars? Bergeron? Chara? 40-year of Recchi? rookie Tyler Seguin?
I watched every game of that playoff run, and Tim Thomas - and this isn't the booze talking - played better than any goalie I've seen in one playoffs. Ever.
Maybe it was his unorthodox style flopping around the crease throwing his pads in the air, or maybe it's his cocky American demeanor, but IMO he was the reason they won that cup and the 2nd reason isn't close.
He had some struggles in the TB series, but the Bruins had no business beating TB (or MTL for that matter) in those series.
Perhaps I'm colored by what Boston turned into and not what they were that year. They're the only non top five possession team to win a Cup over the past five or so years, IIRC.
And I think it was you who said it before, Lundqvist hasn't stolen series' like others you've mentioned. Even Quick, who I stated I'm not high on, had an incredible 2012 run (and whoever said him and Lundqvist were pretty much even for that Vezina was correct - I think Lundqvist win because he was 'due').
This year in particular, would any of the Rangers series' turned out differently if the goalies were swapped?
was awesome. Norris worthy, if he didn't win it (don't remember).
What other stars were on that team? Bergeron.
Find me a less-skilled team to win a cup.
LA? Close, but better than Boston.
Penguins, Blackhawks, Red Wings, Ducks (can't remember most of that team besides Selanne, Pronger and Getzlaf - already better though), you are probably going back to the Brodeur Devils.
Maybe the '06 Hurricanes.
But Thomas won that cup IMO.
I think you're underselling that Kings team a little.
they played a thrilling 6 game SCF series with Chicago two years later and won the Presidents Trophy in 2014. Losing to Montreal, while predicted by some (ahem... ), was a major upset with Carey Price and those goal posts playing lights out, even for Carey Price.
Boston's core was good enough to win a Cup or two. Even if the year they actually won was technically not their best team.
Personally - I'm kind of liking what they're doing here. Only thing i'll say is its actually easier to appease a fan base when you actually won one, and appeared in two SCF, to reload here... than if you're say the Rangers. There's just more of a calm satisfaction if you're a B's fan. But they basically turned an expensive, albeit good player in Lucic into two low teens pick, hell maybe a lottery pick with San Jose just not very good (is that pick protected?) And the Hamilton move while more of a head-scratcher... also a nice return.
They have four first round picks in 2 years to build around a still pretty young nucleus ... they just have to take 2 maybe 3 years off from the playoffs to reload here.
and yeah... Columbus is going to be a bitch playoff opponent to face
we're still stronger on the backline, in net, and both teams still lack those elite scorers... but man will they be a physical team to face in a long series.
I still think NYI, NYR, CBJ and PITT are your playoff teams in this division, with Washington regressing. But we'll see... with Boston out of the way probably up north, the division could conceivably get all 5 teams in now.
I say hire him at MSG Network. And if we really need him, we can then sign him midseason. Like the time Biron retired from the team to the broadcasting team (saving us $$ by not having to cut him), but in reverse. Link - ( New Window )
RE: Look even if you think Thomas 'stole' them a Cup
they played a thrilling 6 game SCF series with Chicago two years later and won the Presidents Trophy in 2014. Losing to Montreal, while predicted by some (ahem... ), was a major upset with Carey Price and those goal posts playing lights out, even for Carey Price.
Boston's core was good enough to win a Cup or two. Even if the year they actually won was technically not their best team.
Personally - I'm kind of liking what they're doing here. Only thing i'll say is its actually easier to appease a fan base when you actually won one, and appeared in two SCF, to reload here... than if you're say the Rangers. There's just more of a calm satisfaction if you're a B's fan. But they basically turned an expensive, albeit good player in Lucic into two low teens pick, hell maybe a lottery pick with San Jose just not very good (is that pick protected?) And the Hamilton move while more of a head-scratcher... also a nice return.
They have four first round picks in 2 years to build around a still pretty young nucleus ... they just have to take 2 maybe 3 years off from the playoffs to reload here.
they have 5 first round picks in two years - they had 3 this year and 2 next year.
Not to mention they also had 3 second round picks this year. At least 9 picks in the top 2 rounds in two years.
First things first: re-sign our RFAs. I'd also re-sign Matt Hunwick. I would see if there are any takers for Girardi (a team where he'd waive his NMC) and Glass (if there was a team that was willing to give up a third for Rinaldo...). I'd also see if a team is willing to trade a nice package for Klein, who is coming off a career year (and I really like Klein, FTR). I would sign Erik Condra to replace Glass and look at Johnny Oduya or Christian Ehrhoff to replace Girardi.
The defensive pairings would look like:
Staal/McDonagh
Whomever we get for Girardi, Klein or Glass. Oduya or Ehrhoff/Boyle
Yandle/McIlrath
Summers/Hunwick
Brooks says that the Rangers have Miller penciled in to play for his qualifying offer of $874,130 because he lacks leverage, unless presented with an offer sheet, without arbitration rights.
Let's hope he doesn't get a big offer sheet elsewhere.
I say hire him at MSG Network. And if we really need him, we can then sign him midseason. Like the time Biron retired from the team to the broadcasting team (saving us $$ by not having to cut him), but in reverse. Link - ( New Window )
If I'm the Rangers, I'd tell him to stick around and wait for an injury.
Miller was the one guy I had slight concerns over being sheeted.
Deej said it's an unwritten rule and that teams wouldn't do it but wasn't Boston clearly concerned it would happen with Hamilton? Same for Chicago with Saad.. it sounded like there were potentially 4 teams who were going to make offers. Why wouldn't anyone do it for Miller? He's obviously not on the same level as the other guys, but market value for him even right now would certainly be higher than 850k.
Josh Yohe @JoshYohe_PGH 15h15 hours ago
Pens did make a trade offer for Saad and people in the organization are stunned that Columbus got him for so little.
Josh Yohe @JoshYohe_PGH 15h15 hours ago
People in Pens organization are sick right now. They know they screwed up (different regime) 4 years ago regarding Saad. Tried to get him.
Josh Yohe @JoshYohe_PGH 15h15 hours ago
Asked a member of Pens' front office about how good Columbus could be next season. The answer: "Scary."
JB @JB_HockeyTalk 13h13 hours ago
Last RT: Blackhawks & Bruins heard PIT/EDM were going to offer sheet Hamilton & Saad. Refused to trade them there. It's believable.
Deej said it's an unwritten rule and that teams wouldn't do it but wasn't Boston clearly concerned it would happen with Hamilton? Same for Chicago with Saad.. it sounded like there were potentially 4 teams who were going to make offers. Why wouldn't anyone do it for Miller? He's obviously not on the same level as the other guys, but market value for him even right now would certainly be higher than 850k.
7 players have signed offer sheets, and only one (Penner) has actually switched teams. Before Penner the last guy to switch teams was Gratton in 1997.
Things may change. But as of now GMs dont really look at other teams' RFAs. It's unfair to the players, but if every player was deemed fair game after his ELC expired (2-3 years generally), there would be chaos. GMs wouldnt be able to make plans.
You could probably find 2-3 JT Millers on every team -- guys that they whole league would love to have at 2-3 million. So to prevent that you'd have guys getting very long term contracts at age 21-23, which I think would cause another lockout.
He was getting left in the dust constantly. He's not the greatest skater/athlete, but I wonder at times if he's got enough to be a high performer late in the playoffs.
Wouldn't surprise me if Miller's hometown Yinz signed him to an offer
Lost positioning, leading to Stepan needing to scramble a bit to try and protect the danger areas. I have no interest in re-watching those games, but the defense was consistently a mess. Far too often there were two guys within a couple feet of the puck possessor, leaving someone wide open in the slot.
but I think the best thing the Rangers could do this year is to create a small amount of room (by moving Klein and trading or stashing Glass), and using that room to early extend one or two of Hayes, Fast, Miller. Give them a little bit extra and get them done for 2-3 years. If we keep kicking the promising young RFAs out a year at a time, the next 2 offseasons are going to be scary expensive.
The more I look at the roster/cap projections for the next few years, the worse I feel.
I really fucking hate the NTCs given to Girardi and Staal.
I've been worried about Kreider since he inked his bridge. I felt like he'd come out of it worth 6+ per and that we wouldn't be able to afford him. I certainly don't feel any better about it now.
This is one of the main reasons why I think it's critical to thrust Skjei into the lineup this season.
If Yandle walks, it doesn't free up much money and our defense has gotten significantly worse. It would be huge to have Skjei's teeth already cut a little bit and possibly ready to play 2nd pairing minutes.
Having said that, I'm a really big fan of Yandle really hope he's here for the long haul.
I can see a scenario where they have to deal Nash in a salary dump
I believe Eric Staal is already considered a goner from Carolina. UFA after this season and from what I had read in a few places, they'd be more than happy to unload him sooner.
RE: I can see a scenario where they have to deal Nash in a salary dump
If they can't move Girardi (which they won't) or Staal. Maybe Carolina will still want to reunite all the Staal brothers? Maybe?
Girardi's NMC doubly sucks if it forces us to have to move Staal to clear space because he's the one we should be keeping long-term.
Staal and Stralman should have been the guys who were retained for the long haul, G should have been dealt.. but it's too freaking late now and it'll never not suck. Bah.
The other problem? St. Louis attitude. Some in the organization have heard through the grapevine that St. Louis became a problem in the Rangers locker room during the playoffs, as he apparently wasnt pleased with the lack of playing time he received. Youll also recall that St. Louis departure out of Tampa Bay didnt exactly come across as flattering. Put it all together, and it appears quite likely the Penguins will pass.
SI.com said that if the Loonie drops to where Goldman predicts ($.72), the cap would actually shrink.
Amazing, in an era where TV money is absolutely booming, where the NBA cap is going from 60 to 100 in 2 years, that the NHL will effectively have 3 years of flat cap. Phoenix continues to be a shit show. And Bettman keeps his job. Will probably get a fat expansion bonus too.
than they are getting. Owners have them over a barrel. The C$ isnt an excuse for flat salaries 3 years in a row... and the cap is too low anyway -- when half the teams in the league have to find ways to get in under the cap every offseason, somethings wrong. Caps make sense but they shouldnt be so low that 2/3 of a league can reach them without a sweat.
I think if Stepan were a UFA, he'd almost certainly get $7M.
I wonder if a short-term deal would be the best option for the team. They can revisit in two years whether they need to blow this up or sign him for a bigger deal when they have more flexibility.
Girardi and Staal are just killer contracts. Adding the NMC is brutal. Apparently the Rangers and five other teams called about Shattenkirk ($4.25M, and a superior defenseman to either of the two), but I don't see how they fit him.
I would love a Nash+Girardi for Shattenkirk+Schwartz+pieces deal. But the Blues have cap issues themselves with Tarasenko due for a contract. All the logical buyers for Nash have issues with the cap and can't afford him.
The Islanders actually make the most sense of any team as a trade partner for Nash when accounting for the cap. It would just never happen, of course.
2012, the more I look at the NHL landscape, I really think they blew it these past two years. Everyone is getting better while the Rangers are struggling to stand in place.
I continue to think Glass and a defenseman get moved at some point.
moving Glass and a defenseman only resolves next season's cap woes
Girardi/Staal are just terrible contracts and terrible values - and then they crush their flexibility by adding NMC. If Stepan wants to sign for $6M and wants a NMC, fine. That's understandable.
I just don't understand the need to add NMC to overmarket contracts like G/Staal. I'm confused as to how those negotiations went.
The Rangers took their best shot and missed. They should trade Nash now. They need some nice prospect or kid in return, balance the books and do their best. Keeping Nash, all these defensemen, resigning Stepan with Kreider and Hayes next year is impossible.
2012, the more I look at the NHL landscape, I really think they blew it these past two years. Everyone is getting better while the Rangers are struggling to stand in place.
I continue to think Glass and a defenseman get moved at some point.
Boo hoo, we lost a backup goalie and a 3rd liner. Meanwhile we have so many young forwards who will probably only get better this year. Year 2 of Fast will give us 80+% of what Hags gave us.
Gorton apparently used the word 'pigeonhold' at the draft when describing certain contracts according to some Blueshirt Banter writers. I have to think he was referencing G/Staal.
2012: I think they can get through the next year with Nash, but would have to look to move him then unless they plan on letting Kreider walk. I think Kreider is a RFA next year, so maybe give him another bridge and then await added flexibility when Girardi's NMC turns into a limited NTC two years from now.
The value for first-line talent is so low on the trade market right now that I think they're better holding off.
to pull the trigger on moving a Staal, DG, or Nash in the next 12 or so months. They'll need the space to begin a re-tool built around the younger core.
The problem is Sather would move a Yandle now, much like he moved all the premium draft picks, Duclair etc, which leads you to wonder how Gorton will view the whole picture.
I'd rather keep Yandle and make a run at the Cup this year and see if we can't move G/Staal a year from now for him.
Trading Yandle makes no sense unless you can get someone like Shattenkirk in return - and simultaneously believe Skjei/McIlrath are ready to contribute.
I hate the "let's give it one more shot mode" with Nash. He is movable right now IMO. If his numbers dip, nobody will want him.
His numbers did drop the 2nd half of last season and in the playoffs. To win the Cup, this will be the third year in a row with a very long playoff and very short offseason. I don't trust Nash suddenly being playoff productive going on three straight long years. Move him IMO.
if that's the best option, and they extract a proper return. As talented as he is, and he also showed some improvement during these playoffs, you still don't get elite performance when it really counts from him often enough to warrant the contract.
He vastly improved this post-season. He needs to take another step, of course.
I don't see him carrying a team to the Cup with a fifteen goal post-season. But I'd rather take another chance with him than trade him for picks.
Not looking for picks, I'm looking for young, less expensive talent.
I feel like I've seen this movie before but maybe you're correct.
IMO, it looks like 95 when "let's give it one more shot" or like Vancouver trying again.
I look at a team like Pitt who just added a weapon and think if those three are healthy they beat the Rangers. Minus Zucs, the Rangers at full throttle were neck and neck with the Pens, neck and neck with the Caps, and struggled mightily against the Lightning in both the regular season and playoffs.
Besides the first min against Pitt, that Rangers two or three line breakout pass was ECLIPSED by everybody in the playoffs and whole Rangers offense struggled. This team was shut down.
Seen this movie before and it has more to do with hope than
hockey sense now IMO. Wouldn't shock me to look like the Kings of last year. Just can't put it together with the same pieces again.
RE: Also we don't know the extent of the injuries to Girardi and Staal
If both return to a 100%, I expect some uptick in their play. They may be over-payed, but in full form they are still good Dmen.
but what would they add? The team played solid defense. Offensively, both Staal and Girardi had only 20 points a piece in the regular season. Girardi had four or five points in the playoff while Staal had ONLY ONE point.
If healthy, what more would we get? The tam did play defensively well and neither provide offense regardless.
But looking at the trades it seems like they gutted the young parts of the roster for that specific run. While I was not a fan of trading Duclair, we did not trade young roster players, thankfully. The Rangers still have young core pieces in Stepan, McDonagh, and Kreider.
If you can get a young guy who can net 25-30 goals (Schwartz/JVR), and some solid pieces, I'm not opposed at all.
The story of the 2015-2016 Rangers, IMO, is going to be how McDonagh bounces back from a poor season.
The Pens still don't have enough on the blue line or depth-wise for me to be that worried about them. They're still not built to be a serious Cup contender.
well, from 95 on the Rangers kept keeping aging players and adding additional older players in hopes they were the difference. From 95-98 the team lost their youth and featured a faulty team where the names were more impressive than the play.
From 98 on, they went 6 years without reaching .500.
Play McIlrath/Diaz in the RD3 slot. If they prove really unworthy, demote one and promote Skjei (and if someone claims McIlrath, it will necessarily be no big loss given the demotion). After the season Boyle and Yandle are UFAs, meaning we'd have 1-2 more open spots. Entirely plausible that come 2016-17, the defense is McDonagh, Girardi, Staal, Skjei, McIlrath, UFA/Bodie/Hughes/euro. Rangers have been staggeringly successful finding cheap #6 dmen -- Stralman (became 2nd pair), Eminger, Hunwick, Diaz... In part because it's not that hard to play sheltered minutes against bottom 6 guys.
Some guys on HF are really high on Petr Zamorsky, who they signed
Figure they'd post an updated one after the bulk of UFA was done and Step filed for arbitration. The trade talk and which youngsters should push to make the team will become the focus, and Gorton's promotion really breathes life into it.
arc, the Penguins worry me when healthy. You can pair your worst defensemen with either of your top two lines and likely control the puck. Play the top pair with your bottom six forwards. Their skill worries me in a short series - especially since the Rangers have largely won games due to defensive efforts over the past two years.
2012, I read a tweet that stated the GM of Vancouver wanted to rebuild in 2013 (two years after a SCF appearance), but the owners fought him. Now they're seemingly stuck in mediocrity. I don't think the Rangers are there yet.
Apparently Step can't use ROR as a comp in arbitration
2012, I read a tweet that stated the GM of Vancouver wanted to rebuild in 2013 (two years after a SCF appearance), but the owners fought him. Now they're seemingly stuck in mediocrity. I don't think the Rangers are there yet.
We're as close to there as we can get IMO. Yes, Vancouver is stuck. Boston was close to stuck and got out (they went a bit far but they got out), Chicago won a cup, got out and rebuilt quickly. IMO, the Rangers are like the 49ers. Got close, so let's try it again.
I think the return on a Nash and Staal would keep this team in contention and solidify the future. Again, I could be wrong but think the Rangers gave it their best shot and they still didn't dominate the Pens, Caps and certainly not Tampa which is scary IMO. The floundering Kings shut down the Rangers on their last trip to NY and everybody saw how to shut them down.
We will see. Nash would certainly benefit the Rangers on 3-on-3 OT next year b/c he holds onto the puck forever. Come playoff time, it's not close to enough.
I think you go for it again and hope for a bit better luck and superior performances from your top players. For all the shit Nash got, McDonagh was brutal pre-injury.
I think all of the teams in the conference finals were good enough to win the Cup this year.
And while the scores were all close, I felt the Rangers outplayed the Pens/Caps in the respective series. Holtby was ridiculous. The Rangers controlled play for the majority of those series', IMO.
Play McIlrath/Diaz in the RD3 slot. If they prove really unworthy, demote one and promote Skjei (and if someone claims McIlrath, it will necessarily be no big loss given the demotion). After the season Boyle and Yandle are UFAs, meaning we'd have 1-2 more open spots. Entirely plausible that come 2016-17, the defense is McDonagh, Girardi, Staal, Skjei, McIlrath, UFA/Bodie/Hughes/euro. Rangers have been staggeringly successful finding cheap #6 dmen -- Stralman (became 2nd pair), Eminger, Hunwick, Diaz... In part because it's not that hard to play sheltered minutes against bottom 6 guys.
move Nash for "some nice prospect or kid in return" which essentially means dumping him. Dump a 40 goal scorer for no specific 2015-16 or 2016-17 help. So then you take a team that has contended for the cup the last two-four seasons and weaken them significantly. To improve us when? 3-4 years from now? When Hank is old and overpaid, and Staal and Girardi are pylons.
There is no need to trade Nash, and I dont think he'll return that much with his inconsistent play and limited NTC. Take a great deal if one comes around, but otherwise you can resign the guys who need to be resigned by moving Klein's 2.9 hit. Another ~9 million clears next year with Boyle, Moore, and Yandle expiring, and maybe at some point the cap actually goes up to account for increased TV rights deals.
RE: RE: Also we don't know the extent of the injuries to Girardi and Staal
If both return to a 100%, I expect some uptick in their play. They may be over-payed, but in full form they are still good Dmen.
but what would they add? The team played solid defense. Offensively, both Staal and Girardi had only 20 points a piece in the regular season. Girardi had four or five points in the playoff while Staal had ONLY ONE point.
If healthy, what more would we get? The tam did play defensively well and neither provide offense regardless.
I agree that our D was perhaps the key ingredient in our regular season success. However I feel the reason we didn't sniff the Cup is a regression on the part of the D -- hopefully due to injuries. Kinda makes my original point.
move Nash for "some nice prospect or kid in return" which essentially means dumping him. Dump a 40 goal scorer for no specific 2015-16 or 2016-17 help. .
All you have to do is read my 9:35 post and not include your assumption the return is for no help.
I'd offer Nash and one of your D for Datsyuk and one of the DET bottom 4 D.
it's a gamble given Datsyuk's age and recent surgery, but Datsyuk is what I think everyone wants Nash to be.
Datsyuk is the most creative player with the puck I've seen since Gretzky, he scores on the PP, he shows up in the playoffs.
his defensive game sets the tone for his team (and the league), he can lead you to a cup. My father used to tell me when I was little to watch these guys without the puck when we went to a hockey game. And I never did, I was distracted by the organists, or the drunk dudes in front of us, or whatever, but now it's never more obvious than from watching Datsyuk how effective and important moving without the puck is in hockey.
and you know DET hasn't thrown in the towel based on the $$$ they shelled out for Green.
They probably won't do it, but given the surgery and age who know. Datsyuk isn't expected back until the start of the season so if the $$ works, maybe even get DET to eat some of the money.
The Caps were a blown call away from defeating the Rangers in the second round.
I saw that too Brett. Don't remember what they're talking about. I vaguely recall that the Caps might've had an extra PP in the 3rd period of Game 5 had the refs made a borderline call, but I don't remember any more than that.
On one hand, I love Datsyuk. But MSL scared me away from old people.
BTW, there was a Derek Sanderson special on NBCSN about a month ago that I just watched last night. You might enjoy it.
On a long(er) term deal I don't like old people either, but the Rangers have a couple year window. Lundqvist is 34 next year before the playoffs. two years of Datsyuk I think helps you more than two of Nash, but onl if Datsyuk is healthy and therein lies the gamble and the only reason Detroit even considers it.
I'd almost rather trade Stepan in Nash's place if you could and basically admit you're going to win the Cup by 2017 and rebuild. I've thought Nash would excel as the second scoring piece, much as Gaborik did with LA. The Rangers are in a weird place, and I tend to think right now that the window will start closing after next year. Not that they can't win a Cup, but the probability will decline slightly from there, especially as Henrik ages.
Deej: I was surprised to see us drop that low. I'm cautious going into next year.
The "blown" call BSPN is referring to is when the refs waved off a Caps goal when Joel Ward ran over and interfered with Henrik. I guess whoever did these rankings is a Caps' fan.
I didn't even think that was a controversial call.
I wouldn't move Nash this offseason but we may have to next year in order to accommodate Kreider who could potentially be looking at a 7x7 if he has the type of year I believe he is capable of.
recognizes the Presidents Trophy winners didn't dominate anybody on the scoreboard.
IMO
1. The Rangers need better shooters. The Rangers hit the boards not stop with these shots whereas a team like Tampa has some nice snipers.
2. Too many defenders provide no offense. If this was 1994, McDonough, Yandle and Boyle would battle Kevin Lowe for PP time. None are remotely close to Zubov let a lone Leetch while there is no Beukeboom presence.
Lundy does his job and maybe Kreider will become that player but the Rangers don't have that Patrick Kane or Messier who makes the play or scores the goal when you absolutely need it. Nash is Bernie Nichols IMO.
IKN, just searching for a solution b/c I think this team is missing something significant for the playoffs and less for the regular season. Too many series go Seven for comfort.
The gap between playoff teams 1-16 is much smaller now than it used to be which is why a lot of series' stretch into 6-7 games. It's hard to avoid. The Kings needed to win three Game 7's in a row just to get to the SCF last year.
who was #3 in PP scoring among defensemen in the whole NHL (#10 overall) playing mostly on a terrible AZ team and then coming to NY where the PP never got settled. That guy cant hang? Shesh.
Brett: Girardi's contract is frontloaded with salary and signing bonus. Over the last 3 years he makes 5m, 4m, and 4m. Unless his play really falls off a cliff, I think we'll be able to move him.
I thought the Rangers outplayed the Caps in five of the seven games
And were probably even in another one. The best team doesn't always win in hockey.
And as arc said, I think the difference between teams is so small now (and has gotten even smaller with Columbus/Washington clearly improving themselves). I don't think there's any elite teams right now, but a lot of really good ones.
Yandle is a really good player. People need to divorce his play from what they gave up for him. I'm concerned he'd want to move elsewhere if AV limits his minutes. Otherwise, I'd hope they can re-sign him.
who was #3 in PP scoring among defensemen in the whole NHL (#10 overall) playing mostly on a terrible AZ team and then coming to NY where the PP never got settled. That guy cant hang? Shesh.
Who said that? You appear to be struggling more than usual today
but people on here overestimate him (or underestimate him).
He struggles in-zone (defensive zone) with his decision making and especially with the bigger forwards.
he has very little physical presence for a guy his size.
and he's slightly overrated on the power play, I like him om the point, just not as the quarterback - he's not the Doughty - puck moving defenseman many were led to believe he was.
who was #3 in PP scoring among defensemen in the whole NHL (#10 overall) playing mostly on a terrible AZ team and then coming to NY where the PP never got settled. That guy cant hang? Shesh.
Who said that? You appear to be struggling more than usual today
You're a real fucking dolt. You said:
Quote:
Too many defenders provide no offense. If this was 1994, McDonough, Yandle and Boyle would battle Kevin Lowe for PP time. None are remotely close to Zubov let a lone Leetch while there is no Beukeboom presence.
Yandle was an elite PP producer last year, #3 among dmen, whereas Lowe at a 19 point dman in 1994. Equating the two -- which you did -- and suggesting that Yandle provides no offense just shows that you're ignorant. Yandle has 50+ points in each of the last two seasons playing mostly on a talent-deprived team. Yandle is a very good offensive defenseman.
Yandle is an excellent skater and an elite passer. Not much of a goal scorer and not very good defensively but he's an asset and a good player overall. I'd prefer to retain him if possible but we're going to be in a crunch basically no matter what.
So that's how it work dumbass? This is what was said.
"If this was 1994, McDonough, Yandle and Boyle would battle Kevin Lowe for PP time. None are remotely close to Zubov let a lone Leetch while there is no Beukeboom presence."
Outside of Ignoring the salary cap and what's posted today you're on a roll. (backwards again).
I think Yandle's a shitload more valuable than either Staal or Girardi - guys who are (allegedly) good in their own zone, but a huge reason why you're stuck there. Yandle gets the puck out of the zone better than either, which is more important.
I think Yandle's a shitload more valuable than either Staal or Girardi - guys who are (allegedly) good in their own zone, but a huge reason why you're stuck there. Yandle gets the puck out of the zone better than either, which is more important.
I agree with that, guys like Staal or Girardi (while good players) are probably easier to replace because the offensive defenseman is harder to find. As evidenced by the constant infatuation with Tomas Kaberle - who isn't close to what I'd call a puck moving defenseman.
but my point was Yandle isn't Paul Coffey or Phil Housley (not that anyone said he was).
To me, he was clearly the biggest disappointment last season, and I'm not just talking about the playoffs. He wasn't the same player as he was in 13-14. If last season is who McDonagh is going forward, we've got a big problem.
I probably do a bit more promoting for Yandle/Boyle for two reasons:
1. I think the league will value these guys higher as the analytics community further entrenches itself in management teams. Both are solid skaters and good puck handlers, especially relative to G/Staal (and I like Staal a great deal).
2. I think Ranger fans underrate these guys because of the price paid to get them - Yandle for Duclair and picks, Boyle for (seemingly) Stralman. I didn't like either 'swap' (even though there was a way to get Boyle and retain Stralman by trading Girardi), but still like both players.
I don't know if I buy the "captaincy weighing on him" speculation but I do think the sample of him being a legit 1st pairing DMan is way too large for last year to be indicative of future performance. The year before, he had put together the best two way season of his career and was close to Norris candidate territory. I doubt he's anywhere near a legitimate decline at age 26.
You're right, Greg. He was a very dumb player at times. It was easy to gloss over when the team was performing well during the regular season, but he cost the team crucial goals during the post-season.
He was a legitimate #1 defenseman in 2013-2014 (I never bought the Norris hype from Pierre). If he's not that, this team is in trouble defensively.
That's like saying because Talbot wasnt the starting goalie in NY, he was competing with Bill de Blasio to be the back up.
Look, lets end the war of words. I still dont understand what point you're making. Among dmen born since Leetch was born in 1968, the top 4 in PPG are in order: (1) Leetch, (2) Karlsson, (3) Lidstrom, and (4) Zubov. So yeah, he isnt one of the 4 best offensive defensemen born in the last 47 years. So what? He is by every measure a very productive offensive defenseman. What is your fucking point on Yandle?
And the team starts with Diaz/McIlrath competing for the 6th and 7th spots. Skjei might be a mid-season call-up depending on how either of the two perform in that role/injuries.
RE: I thought the Rangers outplayed the Caps in five of the seven games
(and has gotten even smaller with Columbus/Washington clearly improving themselves).
Did you mean Pittsburgh instead of Washington? I dont get the Caps hype unless they have minor leaguers coming up through their system that i dont know about. Their offseason has been a wash to date.
And lets not forget the quality and quantity Holtby played up to last year either. Is that sustainable? He's a good young goalie but is he the next Hank? Dunno about that.
Anyway, CBJ and Pitt did get marginally better... and Isles will have more experience... really its about that Rangers lockerroom and whether this group has one more deep run left in it.
But I don't see how this solves their problems, even if Kessel plays to expectations. If he really going to be that much better than James Neal was? And that particular squad won nothing. Their supporting cast is probably even worse than it was 3-4 years ago. Kunitz and Depuis are probably on their last legs. Tons of question marks on defense.
they have to dump either Dupuis or Kunitz.. or both... and not sure there are takers.
Its not really Kessel for Neal though - i thought Hornqvist replaced Neal (?) And Kessel is better than Neal, in any event. We'll have to see how motivated PK is now playing alongside two generational talents and in a market a little less intense than Toronto.
Anyway.. that was a team up until getting ravaged by injury late in the year was neck-and-neck with us for the division as of early March. It's a team to be respected, that's all i'm saying.
Are they the odds on favorite to win the East this year? No. Neither is Washington or CBJ either.
Paper lineup doesnt matter. Geno Malkin was 0-0-0 in 5 games, and his play didnt merit 3rd line time. He was broken, and has been hurt in 4 of 5 seasons (the 5th was his Hart year). He'll be 29 next year. I dont know enough about his situation, but it entirely possible that he cant stand the rigors of an NHL season and playoffs anymore, even playing sheltered minutes.
Perhaps significantly is overstating. They added a top six winger and I still like Williams. Many (don't believe this was you, MAB) talked about the huge loss of Zucc in the post season. Oshie has out scored him the past two years. He's a good addition, and they have some younger guys who can take another step (Wilson/Carlson).
they have to dump either Dupuis or Kunitz.. or both... and not sure there are takers.
Its not really Kessel for Neal though - i thought Hornqvist replaced Neal (?) And Kessel is better than Neal, in any event. We'll have to see how motivated PK is now playing alongside two generational talents and in a market a little less intense than Toronto.
Anyway.. that was a team up until getting ravaged by injury late in the year was neck-and-neck with us for the division as of early March. It's a team to be respected, that's all i'm saying.
Are they the odds on favorite to win the East this year? No. Neither is Washington or CBJ either.
Also, I think I've been overstating Columbus's talent (in part because they play a style the Rangers don't perform well against). Their defense is weak. A lot hinges on Murray's health/development for them.
is underrated (if he is) because he has less contact in a hockey game than your average female soccer player has in a soccer game.
Talented, yes, will he score points, yes, is he a guy I'd want on the ice up or down a goal late in the third?
not a chance.
Hope he proves me wrong, I like all the American players to succeed he reminds me of the guy who was already in the neutral zone in youth hockey the second the goalie makes the save.
That series with them and the Islanders was like an old AHL series in terms of toughness. There were more hits in one game than in the whole Habs Lightning series. that was some awesome hockey to watch.
when you can play the physical game like they can and then the skill game like they can with solid D and a good goalie you have the elements in place to win.
The Rangers do too, they just lack an Ovie/Backstrom duo Nash could be part of it and I think Kreider could become that guy but he has to do it.
Should be a great year, I hope the Bruins don't win the lottery, Auston Matthews is Conor McDavid-like. And American, I don't want to have to hate him.
He had two game winners (both in the third) against BOS in 2013.
for slightly more skill this offseason though. And all that shot blocking and physicality weighs -- I dont know, they still seem a little top heavy and Goalie dependent. Defense is pretty average, and they lost a big part of their powerplay this offseason.
I fear some of the other Metro teams a little more at this point.
Who knows... We'll see. There are 5 capable teams in the Metro and not a ton separates any of them at this time.
and MSL was probably hurt this postseason (or just dead... but as deej has pointed out, pre- his knee injury he wasnt *that* bad)
In any event its utterly ridiculous to say if a team was completely 100% healthy it would have beat a team with a lot of injuries. That's hockey - you're never fully healthy come playoff time.
And what about their 3rd line impresses you anyway? They have like 4 good offensive players.
Not a bad team by any means, but firmly in wild card territory at the moment IMO. I actually fear them more in 2016-2017 when i believe they have more cap space to play with.
I simply said the Rangers had injuries to 4 key players... the Caps had one. So to say if the Caps didnt have that one...
We didnt even count trying to win a game 7 without Dan Boyle for half the game either.
Agree to disagree. We'll see what happens next year and hell, offseason hasnt really ended just yet either. I just dont think - to date- getting Oshie and Williams, while losing Ward, Green and Brouwer (and other assets that could have helped them in time) makes them all much better.
got hurt in March. Pre-ASG he wasnt just not-bad. He was good. 14-22-36 on 15.6% shooting in 44 GP. Pro-rated for an 82 game season that's 26 goals and 67 points. Those #s would have put him 2nd on the team in goals (he finished t2nd anyway w/ Kreider at 21) and 2nd on the team in points, 2 behind Nash and 7 ahead of Brassard's 60. MSL still finished 4th with 52, ahead of Zucc and Kreider.
He was dog shit in the playoffs. But I think it had to be the knee. Only thing giving me pause is the fact that we had ZERO interest in resigning him, but that may be because he wasnt willing to talk a cheap deal.
yeah there's a reason no team signed him this offseason
have been consistently depressing me. I use you guys as my main source for hockey news (particularly Brett), and everyone just seems to have this foregone conclusion that our window is pretty much shut and we will be worse next year.
it'd be like us complaining that Sheppard was hurt
You're giving them far too much respect, man. The numbers are what they are -- the Rangers were a better team all season long and we're the better team in that series, despite more and more impactful injuries than what the Caps were dealing with.
Does it mean the Caps couldnt win the Metro or the East next year? No. I wouldnt personally put a $10 on it, but by all means... go for it.
Changing topics - to pjcas above... i wouldnt worry too much about Boston winning the lottery this year. I have a hard time believing they'll finish bottom 5 - there's still some talent on that roster.
If Arizona or Colorado dont finish with the worst records in the league this year, it'd be a pretty major upset no? And Toronto, Carolina and New Jersey are all pretty bad too.
RE: The Caps didn't have only one injured player, though.
my POV on injuries is they might have a slight impact but they normally don't sway a series. I know you'll hear afterwards player x had a broken blah blah, but if he's playing it's not that bad.
Obviously I'm not comparing myself to NHLers who have far better medical staff than I do (which is none) I broke my foot in November, played for three weeks on it before I realized it was broken. Was I limited? No, not really, just in pain. In fact having the skate on was when I felt the least pain (except when I took more shots off the skate), but the compression of the skate helped.
if a player is hurt bad enough, no matter how tough they are the coaches know it and won't throw them out there.
Just my 2c. Every single team has injuries, you know your team better because you follow their beat writers, but I suspect the same list of surgeries and muscle pulls/separations for just about every team.
our window is pretty much shut and we will be worse next year.
They're a bummer to read =(
I think even the most dire of us think we still have a 2-3 year window. So i dont think you can conclude that.
As far as "worse" next year - well there's nowhere to go in the regular season than down. We just set a franchise point record and won a Presidents Trophy. Doesnt mean we cant improve upon the postseason though. Seed doesnt matter that much - just get there so that you dont have to be on the road every round. A 2 seed in the division or even a 3 that's more like 5th in the conference is perfectly fine. Chances are you'll get home ice once.
it'd be like us complaining that Sheppard was hurt
You're giving them far too much respect, man. The numbers are what they are -- the Rangers were a better team all season long and we're the better team in that series, despite more and more impactful injuries than what the Caps were dealing with.
Does it mean the Caps couldnt win the Metro or the East next year? No. I wouldnt personally put a $10 on it, but by all means... go for it.
Changing topics - to pjcas above... i wouldnt worry too much about Boston winning the lottery this year. I have a hard time believing they'll finish bottom 5 - there's still some talent on that roster.
If Arizona or Colorado dont finish with the worst records in the league this year, it'd be a pretty major upset no? And Toronto, Carolina and New Jersey are all pretty bad too.
Again you're probably right, but I read Rask is on the block and if the Bruins start slow I can see them totally blowing it up more than they have.
they have two first round picks again next year and two seconds. that's 9 picks in the first two rounds in two years.
won't provide immediate help, but sure eases the rebuilding when you have assets.
it'd be like us complaining that Sheppard was hurt
You're giving them far too much respect, man. The numbers are what they are -- the Rangers were a better team all season long and we're the better team in that series, despite more and more impactful injuries than what the Caps were dealing with.
Does it mean the Caps couldnt win the Metro or the East next year? No. I wouldnt personally put a $10 on it, but by all means... go for it.
Changing topics - to pjcas above... i wouldnt worry too much about Boston winning the lottery this year. I have a hard time believing they'll finish bottom 5 - there's still some talent on that roster.
If Arizona or Colorado dont finish with the worst records in the league this year, it'd be a pretty major upset no? And Toronto, Carolina and New Jersey are all pretty bad too.
Comparing Fehr to Sheppard is just stupid. Fehr was their fifth leading goal scorer and was third on a G/GP basis. Had a PPG average than Hagelin. You're really reaching,
The Rangers were the better team in that series as well - even when it looked like they were losing that series in five.
RE: RE: The Caps didn't have only one injured player, though.
my POV on injuries is they might have a slight impact but they normally don't sway a series. I know you'll hear afterwards player x had a broken blah blah, but if he's playing it's not that bad.
Obviously I'm not comparing myself to NHLers who have far better medical staff than I do (which is none) I broke my foot in November, played for three weeks on it before I realized it was broken. Was I limited? No, not really, just in pain. In fact having the skate on was when I felt the least pain (except when I took more shots off the skate), but the compression of the skate helped.
if a player is hurt bad enough, no matter how tough they are the coaches know it and won't throw them out there.
Just my 2c. Every single team has injuries, you know your team better because you follow their beat writers, but I suspect the same list of surgeries and muscle pulls/separations for just about every team.
I agree in principle (which really just means I kind of disagree, lol), but maybe the Caps/Isles series turns out differently if the Islanders weren't digging into their second pairing from Bridgeport, or the Lightning win the Cup if it's Crawford with the torn groin and Kane with the broken wrist instead of Bishop and Johnson. When the margins are that thin, the difference in health between top players can make a huge difference.
have been consistently depressing me. I use you guys as my main source for hockey news (particularly Brett), and everyone just seems to have this foregone conclusion that our window is pretty much shut and we will be worse next year.
They're a bummer to read =(
Thanks, SY! I still think we have another good shot this year, but that it starts to close from there - but a lot depends on the development of some of the prospects. If Skjei is a poor man's McDonagh or Buchnevich is bonafide top six winger, that window remains wide open.
injuries where the guys aren't playing. Like the Islanders D, like Carey Price, Crosby in the Bruins series, etc. absolutely 100% make a difference.
I meant injuries where the guys are playing don't make enough of a difference to sway a series. If they are obviously hurting a team they will be yanked by the coach.
I think a lot of coaches are way too stubborn - AV with MSL this year, for example. In a game where one play can entirely change the game, you hope a guy like MSL/Johnson breaks through for you once and scores.
But that's a coaching decision more than anything else (which is why I blame AV more for the Rangers game 7 loss to Tampa more than McDonagh's foot or MSL's death - as I've said multiple times, injuries are way down the list for me as a Ranger fan as to why this season ended prematurely). And sometimes you really just don't have anything else (Malkin for the Pens, Backstrom for the Capitals).
Stepan stats:
Assists-per-game at ages 23-24:
Derek Stepan: .53
Jonathan Toews: .50
Eric Staal: .48
Patrice Bergeron: .47
I really hope the team rids themselves of Glass and has a fourth line they can trust. Dominic Moore is a really good fourth line center (who's a UFA at the end of the year) - he's someone who they should trust enough to be out their in the defensive zone, but they can't because of Glass.
Those skills are so overrated. Miller and Kreider are guys who can hit. It's much more important to be strong on the forecheck than 'finish a check'. I don't know Stahlberg's game that well, but he's a couple inches bigger than Glass.
it's not idiotic. Physical play is part of the game and Glass did disrupt the opponents offense. Glass going out and hitting turned the tide of emotion on multiple occasions.
Granted, I'd prefer physical play with skill which Glass doesn't have yet the physical play of Washington clearly beat up many Rangers wheels going forward and disassembled the Isles.
A few hitters go a long way. It's not figure skating.
I posted this before but Matt Martin became my favorite non-Hab, non American player very quickly in that series.
that dude is like a heat seeking missile. If he had better hands he'd be a better Lucic, but he doesn't. He's the epitome of a checking forward. you could see the Cap D with their heads on a swivel as they went into the corner.
So, in part I'm disagreeing with Brett, you need that role on the team, but yeah ideally some portion of your top 6 wingers posses that skill set and you don't need a one-dimensional player on the roster when that's all he can do.
I'd love Martin on my team. Physicality sets the tone.
Hockey has changed. Icing guys who provide nothing but physicality is a waste of a slot and it is being phased out. You don't need an "enforcer" anymore. Size is good, hitting is good. But if the player is an anchor who can't provide a lick of offense and is constantly puck chasing in our zone, there's barely anything to gain.
Replacing Glass with a skilled hockey player makes the Rangers a better team.
It's idiotic to sacrifice skill for physicality (sitting Miller over Glass, etc.). Guys like Miller, Tom Wilson, and a couple of the Islander bottom six guys are what teams should be seeking - physical forecheckers who can capitalize on the forecheck and help drive possession. There should be zero place on a roster for Tanner Glass's - physical guys devoid of skill.
2012, I never recall Glass disrupting anyone's offense. He was given offensive zone starts to shield his shitty play and the puck would inevitably wind up in our zone because he is such a shitty player. He completely drags down any line he's on. Moore's possession numbers drop from 49.6% apart from Glass to 44.7% with him. Glass apart from Moore was 39.8% (all CF%). He is just a fucking brutal player.
Doesn't have the skill to really put up points, but isn't a sled possession-wise. I like those guys on the fourth line a lot.
My wording was harsh, because I agree with everything you wrote (except fuck the Islanders, obviously).
Glass just has no place.
Agree, Glass has nowhere near the spark of Martin, and he wouldn't see the ice on my team.
I'd rather have Dale Wiese taking a regular shift (and I know you are aware of his limitations), and Wiese is a punching bag, with a goofy face, but he's not afraid to mix it up and has developed a knack for the big goal.
came from the Ranger system, and I thought the plan was to build the fourth line around him. He had big goals for the Wolfpack, too. I think he had some injuries and they gave up on him.
But remember, when you're hitting someone, your team doesn't have the puck. A player who can control the puck >>> a big hitter.
Of course, it's excellent if you can have players who can do both.
the point isn't just the hit, the physical hit takes a toll throughout a game throughout a series, throughout a season. plus when dished out as violently as Martin dishes them out (or Lucic or guys like that) it absolutely 100% has an impact on the D and causes them to rush (even forwards - I love violent forecheck hits).
like I said there is little place for a one dimensional player who can only hit, but if you have a guy who hits and does other things close to adequately he's got a spot on my team.
(1) It's idiotic to sacrifice skill for physicality (sitting Miller over Glass, etc.). Guys like Miller, Tom Wilson, and a couple of the Islander bottom six guys are what teams should be seeking - physical forecheckers who can capitalize on the forecheck and help drive possession.
(2) 2012, I never recall Glass disrupting anyone's offense. He was given offensive zone starts to shield his shitty play and the puck would inevitably wind up in our zone because he is such a shitty player. He completely drags down any line he's on. Moore's possession numbers drop from 49.6% apart from Glass to 44.7% with him. Glass apart from Moore was 39.8% (all CF%). He is just a fucking brutal player.
1. Agreed. You don't need Stu Grimmson. You do need some physical presence though. Washington was huge and couldn't really score but their size closed down the lanes in which some Rangers smurfs found themselves skating around the ice but nowhere near the net.
Speed does kill and you have to do something to slow it down. Injured or not, the Rangers tried countering the Lightning speed by slowing their game down to a crawl. The fast Rangers were slow against the Lightning. A few players who could take the body like Glass causes turnovers and maybe the Rangers transition game wouldn't have been so obsolete.
2. Glass helped against the Caps. He was one of few who hit back and kept the Caps a little honest. A close look at this Rangers team it looked like AV's Canucks vs the Bruins. The Rangers won the series but it was pretty evident there wasn't much left for Tampa.
On several occasions you mentioned Lucic and McIlrath. I mentioned them too. Neither are really fast skaters but we know what they bring and we know what the Rangers need. Granted, Lucic can score and we're hoping Dylan can skate well enough for opponents to skate with their heads up.
Back to Tampa, the triplets glided into the Rangers end with potential obstruction their only concern (which is fearless). That's a problem.
But remember, when you're hitting someone, your team doesn't have the puck. A player who can control the puck >>> a big hitter.
Of course, it's excellent if you can have players who can do both.
Hitting causes turnovers though. The Bruins were outclassed by the Canucks for the first two games of their Stanley Cup final. When the Bruins took the game to the boards and hit, the Canucks had no answers. The hitting neutralized the speed that was killing them.
2012, we just disagree on Glass's contribution to the team - I do think he was better during the post-season (the possession numbers disagree, but I thought he looked a lot better).
My big concern about McIlrath is his discipline. He was in the box for nine minutes in a game when the Rangers were missing three or four dman. You can rotate forwards and not miss too much if a guy is in the box for fighting - harder to do with only 5 defenseman. But I'm really intrigued about his potential presence and hope other fans ignore the price we paid to get him and focus on his play.
I hope Hayes improves his skating. He stands up way too tall (which helps control the puck), but he doesn't get low enough in transition.
On a side not Brett may appreciate (or not) I was ejected from my game last night half way through the first period.
guy two handed me in the ankle right near where I broke my foot (pissed off he missed a goal) and then I went to go after him slashed my stick out of my hand. I lost it. I went after him and Bertuzzi'd him and wouldn't stop pummeling him until the refs and both teams pulled me off.
I got a 5-game suspension, but more importantly scared the hell out of myself. I need anger management counseling. I can't explain how mad I was.
His whole season was awful. He was a bit less awful in the playoffs. The contract he received is even worse than his game. For that money the organization should and could have acquired a player that can do more. The regression of our 4th line(Dom the exception) was a major factor in the attrition of our other lines over the course of the season and playofss. It manifested with devastating effect at the critical junctures in games 5 and 7 of the ECF. The tank was empty.
Derek Stepan cant use Ryan OReillys contract as an arbitration comparable, because it takes effect when the Sabre becomes unrestricted. UFA deals cannot be used in those hearings for RFAs. But the Rangers know it is absolutely a factor in any long-term negotiation. Ive heard theyve been asked about Kevin Klein, but dont want to go that route. Hes signed for three more years at a very reasonable $2.9 million not easy to replace at that cost. In a perfect world, theyd want to take one more run with this group, but Stepans number probably determines that. I dont think they want to move Keith Yandle, but what if theyre really stuck?
Assuming it's true, there are a few possibilities: Gorton doesn't like Yandle and hated the trade, Gorton wants to recoup significant assets by trading Yandle - likely take a small hit this year or to provide optionality further out, the Rangers are full of shit and trying to drive up the market value for Klein, or they're trying to dump another defenseman (Girardi).
I hate to see Yandle go. I think he can make a huge difference.
If expansion money was part of Hockey Related Revenue, teams would be spending like your newly-divorced uncle going through his mid-life crisis. But it isnt, so the upcoming windfall wont raise the ceiling.
Klein is a solid second-pair guy. I always maintained that.
unless they can move Girardi or Staal. Anaheim could really use a guy like Girardi, but it concerns me that he was not part of the Hagelin deal so they just may not be interested.
The longer this waits the more concerned i get that McIlraith will be let go for peanuts. But why sign Diaz if you planned to keep all 6 defenders?
I'd say try to trade D Boyle (if he'd waive his NMC), but that wouldnt solve the Yandle problem for next offseason.
Annoys me that ROR is going to impact Stepan - its one bad, overpay contract... there have been multiples of this more reasonable deals recently signed.. i know he's not a C, but including Saad at $6mm/yr
at least not while 7 mil is 9-10% of your cap. Just can't take over a game to be worth that.
He's worth $6mm/year IMO. 6.5mm would be painful, a tough call.... if he demands 7mm hopefully they explore trade options for that 'bigger, tougher' C that can crash the net, etc.
ROR's deal will be inadmissible to Step's negotiations so it doesn't really matter so much what he got. Different circumstances.
It would pain me to have to go all the way up to 7 per on Stepan but I think you still have to do it if that's what it comes to. I think he's underrated because he's not a flashy skater or an elite skill guy. We would be a much worse team without him.
Who is a 'legitimate' #1 center (in those fans eyes) more than a cap move. The theory is that he's worth the extra couple hundred thousand but Stepan isn't (which I don't agree with - I do think it makes the team better). I doubt Boston would go for it.
Greg, I think the real question is how much better does this team get the next three years with Bergeron than with Stepan? I don't really know how much Bergeron increases the probability of the Rangers winning a Cup to know if the tradeoff of getting a worse player from 2019-2022 is worth the short-term benefit. I generally hate that short-term thinking, but do like Bergeron a lot. I'd be on the fence, but suspect the Rangers would theoretically have to add something extra.
probably true but while i guess its always good to keep options open... i dont think 2019-2022 holds much relevance to this group. Expecting to be a SC contender that far out you are betting on pretty much 20 straight playoff appearances without benefit of lottery picks that entire time.
Impossible? Just about. Focus on the next 3 year window.
No offense, but I'm kind of sick of hearing about windows
Throwing everything into a shortsighted attempt at salvaging a supposed window is how the Rangers turned into a disaster in the late '90s. It actually is possible to win games, and even playoff series, without Henrik Lundqvist.
Throwing everything into a shortsighted attempt at salvaging a supposed window is how the Rangers turned into a disaster in the late '90s. It actually is possible to win games, and even playoff series, without Henrik Lundqvist.
but Sather made that decision for us when he gave away 1st round picks and other assets the past few years for MSL, Yandle, etc.
It is what it is. Our guys expect to get paid going into free agency and I dont blame them. Nearly impossible to keep this group together much longer.
As far as late 90s rebuilds... the tight salary cap hurts you in good times, but it also protects you in bad ones... it wouldnt take nearly as long to rebuild now if done properly.
Hell... Boston is retooling now... you can argue about the quality of their draft picking if you like... but basically taking a 3 year timeout to get back to contending status by 2018. We may very well adopt that philosophy as soon as next offseason. If done properly, there's no shame in that.
Anyway... hopefully we can sign Stepan at $6mm per year. I think that's fair personally... 6.5mm starts to get tight but i'd still do it. I'm only suggesting explore trades at $7mm which IMO is too much for him.
You're out of your mind. Bergeron isn't close to Kopitar anymore. Neither is Stepan for that matter.
there's like 18 months separating Bergeron and Kopitar.
somehow Kopitar is on some massive upward swing, but Bergeron is broken down?
Datsyuk is in their class (and much better than Stepan) at 36 years old.
Hockey players all age, the bruins were a dumpster fire last year, and Bergeron was his usual self.
If I have a choice of Bergeron the next three years or Stepan it's not close and I don't think NHL GM's would disagree with me. Problem is Bergeron is signed for 6 years.
or was that as close to happening as Sather's make-believe Stamkos trade (you know... the one that didnt include the two most important decision makers from TBL being involved)
Jessiman was one of young Brett's scouting highlights. Called him a bust the second the Rangers drafted him (only because the Rangers drafted him).
I went to the draft party that year. Room died when they picked Jessiman. Such a high risk move when they had nothing in the system.
MAB, I remember those rumors - and also remember an HF thread that asked if you'd take Crosby or Prucha, and a not-so-small minority picked Prucha. Lulz.
Seabrook I know is considered to be a very fine prospect however I'm not sure (maybe I should say I don't know enough about him) I would want to part with Prucha for him.
So we can afford Stepan. Rangers owe qualifying offers to Miller, Fast, and Etem, and still have 7.6+ million left over. I would trade Klein, because better to do it a year early than a year late. We simply cannot afford the luxury of 6 dmen at $3-6 million AAV each.
We'll manage next year. Strip off Boyle (4.5), Klein (2.9) and if need by Yandle (~3?) and there is plenty of money to resign Kreider, Hayes (bridge), and back fill the roster. I cant really blame Sather for finally having a good team come due for contracts in the midst of a crash of oil prices which depress league revenues and hold the cap flat. Look at how no one is getting paid in UFA.
The notion that Sather has really mortgaged the future I think is overstated. The 4 #1s hurt, but they were late #1s. Sometimes you get top 6 guys in the late 20s, but usually not. Who here would take 4 very late #1s for a Stepan level talent (signed to a reasonable deal)? I probably wouldnt. Who are the prospects we've traded? Duclair! We'll see on him. Lots of speed/shot skill but we've seen it. Canada overmatched the WJCs and I dont think you can scount anyone from that. Who is the next best prospect he's traded for a vet in the last 5 years? Erixon, who hasnt panned out? Anyone else?
Putting aside picks, how many traded prospects/young players do you have any meaningful regret over? Too soon on Duclair -- people regret it because he COULD be somebody. Tyutin in 2008. Umberger I think was a weird situation (2004). Samuelsson (2003)? York (2002)? Johnsson (2001)? It's really slim pickings. Link - ( New Window )
that the one hit was career ending. He must have had a lot of head injuries prior to that.
Just hope history doesnt repeat itself with Zuccs here. We've had so much bad luck with head injuries this decade, nearly losing Hank to a neck too.
Of course as i've said before, most of this preventable and thus frustrating... but clearly the relative head injuries to what other franchises endure is really unbelievable.
that the one hit was career ending. He must have had a lot of head injuries prior to that.
Just hope history doesnt repeat itself with Zuccs here. We've had so much bad luck with head injuries this decade, nearly losing Hank to a neck too.
Of course as i've said before, most of this preventable and thus frustrating... but clearly the relative head injuries to what other franchises endure is really unbelievable.
Stevens ended Lindros's career. Samuelson impacted Neely's career significantly (I won't say ended it but he was never really the same after that).
Looking it up....it was the third of that season and the fifth in his career.
absolutely, how many concussions do you think the average athlete in hockey or football incurs? I think it's more than you think. Stevens was the coup de grace.
Putting aside picks, how many traded prospects/young players do you have any meaningful regret over? Too soon on Duclair -- people regret it because he COULD be somebody. Tyutin in 2008. Umberger I think was a weird situation (2004). Samuelsson (2003)? York (2002)? Johnsson (2001)? It's really slim pickings. Link - ( New Window )
Those players dont need to turn into stars. But those picks and prospects could come up as cheap 3rd/4th liners or 2nd/3rd pairings and combined with the mid 20s talent today due for big pay raises... keep us as contenders.
But instead we are virtually bare in the system with guys still due raises and tough decisions like Hagelin, Talbot, Stralman, etc.... next year Yandle vs one of the power forwards... must be made that will make us a bit weaker every offseason.
I'm not even saying our mgmt has done a bad job -- peaks and valleys are impossible to avoid. Rebuilds are inevitable -- just have a Plan and stick to it. I'd rather suck for a few years and build around a few lottery picks..... then do what Philly and Detroit have done the past few years.
Richter's career was ended by that shot he took to the head
I'm just saying that Sauer probably didn't have the accumulated head trauma Lindros had, that's all. It pretty much was just that one hit that ended his career.
no doubt those 4 #1s might provide decent, cheap depth down the line. On the flipside does a guy like Hayes sign here if we're knee-deep in #1s? He came here for playing time. I wouldnt trade him for 2 late #1s.
I might be a homer, but I think our crappy system will do fine filling the cheap roster spots. Buchnevich is a good a prospect as Kreider, Miller, and Hayes were before joining the team -- which is to say not a top 25 stud cornerstone prospect but really promising. Tambo has promise as a scoring PF-lite. Lindberg I think will be a fixture (better than Fast), and Nieves, Fogarty, and Iverson will probably yield at least one skate-hit-defend bottom 6er. Key is that our system is productive and we arent hard up for stars. Defensive group is thin though I am a huge Skjei fan.
Both Lindros boys were felled by concussions. The Sauer Brothers (Michael and Kurt in the NHL, and Craig in the NFL) all retired in their 20s in whole or part because of concussions.
no doubt those 4 #1s might provide decent, cheap depth down the line. On the flipside does a guy like Hayes sign here if we're knee-deep in #1s? He came here for playing time. I wouldnt trade him for 2 late #1s.
I might be a homer, but I think our crappy system will do fine filling the cheap roster spots. Buchnevich is a good a prospect as Kreider, Miller, and Hayes were before joining the team -- which is to say not a top 25 stud cornerstone prospect but really promising. Tambo has promise as a scoring PF-lite. Lindberg I think will be a fixture (better than Fast), and Nieves, Fogarty, and Iverson will probably yield at least one skate-hit-defend bottom 6er. Key is that our system is productive and we arent hard up for stars. Defensive group is thin though I am a huge Skjei fan.
Kevin Hayes was the 24th pick in his draft year, Krieder 19th, Miller 15th, and Skjei 28th. Buch, of course, was taken a bit later and this doesn't get into the skating core of which this team was built upon. Of Stepan, Cally, Staal, McD, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Girardi, etc the majority seem to have been taken in the vicinity of the draft in which the Rangers would have had the opportunity to select in recent years had they not have traded out of those spots. If the Rangers so harshly devalued any pick not deemed "premium" this team would have been devoid of talent long ago.
It just seems counterintuitive to discount late 1st round picks at such a degree while then championing the players that this range of picks have traditionally yielded.
The talent pool has grown deeper and the Rangers scouting has really improved imo. They aren't throw away picks. unfortunately in his greed for one final hurrah Sather treated them as such.
Kevin Hayes was the 24th pick in his draft year, Krieder 19th, Miller 15th, and Skjei 28th. Buch, of course, was taken a bit later and this doesn't get into the skating core of which this team was built upon. Of Stepan, Cally, Staal, McD, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Girardi, etc the majority seem to have been taken in the vicinity of the draft in which the Rangers would have had the opportunity to select in recent years had they not have traded out of those spots. If the Rangers so harshly devalued any pick not deemed "premium" this team would have been devoid of talent long ago.
It just seems counterintuitive to discount late 1st round picks at such a degree while then championing the players that this range of picks have traditionally yielded.
But the guys you're talking about werent late #1s, so it does disprove the reflexive "oh no, we traded late #1s". The only late #1s you list were Skjei (who hasnt done squat so far) and Hayes, who was someone else's #1 and fully developed before we signed him at age 21 (so some selection bias -- he could have been crap). My point is that a late late #1 cant be compared to a mid #1 which is where Miller came from and an early-mid #1 which is where McDonagh and Staal came from. Of course a #10 pick is a lot different from a #28 pick.
And then you get a listing of guys like Of Stepan (#51), Cally (#127), Dubinsky (#60), Anisimov (#54), Girardi (undrafted) -- none of them first rounders or even early 2nds. So my point that the people bemoaning the lack of firsts is even more valid -- it's not like you need late firsts to succeed. And it's not like we traded away 4 straight Staals or JT Millers, because those guys were taken in the top half of the first round. Of course late #1s have SOME value. It's just lazy to think of it as trading 4 #1s as if all #1s are the same. It's not as bad as the NBA, but there is just a world of difference at the top 10 and bottom 10 of the first round of the NHL draft.
partly because they have a good scouts and a system they believe in. Trading away picks as they have, has traded away from one of their big strengths which is making picks. Guys like McD, Lindberg, Hayes and now Etem were all guys their scouts liked and stayed on, for opportunities to acquire. So I think trading away 4 ones was trading away for something they've done well.
I'd posit that you're correct in that the marginal difference in talent and the certainty of that talent is much greater within picks 1-10 versus that of 25-50 (approximate). I don't know if the NHL employs any sort of point system to value draft picks (like the old NFL chart) but I'd imagine some sort of statistical analysis could attempt to quantify the incremental value of each pick given the historical data set, and I think the results would show that the late 1st and 2nd round don't have too much dispersion.
That being said, to me this simply represents even more of an opportunity for the Rangers to exploit their strong scouting department and manage their assets in such a manner as to acquire even more chances to select in that second or third grouping of players. Four 1st rounders, or could we have leveraged that into eight 2nd round picks? Would I rather have had a few more cracks at selecting some nice players in that second and third tier (along with Lindberg on the big club this year) or MSL scoring a couple of goals in the 2014 playoffs and being an absolute liability in the 2015 run?
In this salary cap era the wealthy teams have but a few clear inherent advantages remaining over the smaller market clubs and this includes their ability to spend and structure the finest scouting and talent development programs in the world. The Rangers have shown themselves adept at such and to trade away the opportunities to exploit this advantage is foolish, imho.
Oh, and fuck MSL...still waiting for my jersey, Brett!
when you dont have a core of generational talents (like Chicago or Pittsburgh) that you're better off taking your shots. Now late #1 picks obviously have value. Especially when you're on a run of good drafting/development success (though I think on ice NHL success breeds better player development). But I just dont see a problem trading 4 straight #1s, in the abstract. I dont think anyone can complain about the Nash trade. People bemoan the Yandle trade because of Duclair (I think it was a fine and fair trade). The problem with the MSL trade was mostly that it was an overpay. If it had been Stamkos no one would complain.
I lean towards BM's viewpoint. Most draft picks are busts, but it's hard to field a sustainable, competitive team without them. I didn't mind dealing it for Nash because he's an asset that will be with us for years. And maybe Yandle re-signs, in which case I have no real issue with that trade. But trading it away for guys who will only be with the team for a year or two is dumb to me. The MSL trade was silly because the probability of him being with the team for more than a year and three months was so low, and the risk of a sharp decline was heightened.
I agree with this line:
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(though I think on ice NHL success breeds better player development)
Much easier to have guys step in and be a fourth line winger and subsequently earning a top nine role than throwing them to the fire immediately (Fast is a good example).
of course if it were Stamkos no one would complain
even in his career year at age 38.... MSL wasnt nearly the player Stamkos is
I actually had no problem of Cally for MSL... i just didnt understand all the extra 1st rounders thrown in for fun... especially the part about making the ECF turning a 2nd into a 1st... who the fuck cares about making the ECF?
Three straight years with basically the same group is stale IMO. They need a face lift b/c they did not bury the Pens or Caps in the playoffs despite that Presidents Trophy.
The 1994 team would have blown those teams off the ice. This group struggled.
The 'contingent' seconds into firsts is so dumb to me.
Three straight years with basically the same group is stale IMO. They need a face lift b/c they did not bury the Pens or Caps in the playoffs despite that Presidents Trophy.
I dont know if i agree with this or not - has the core really stayed the same? Seems to me a lot of changes have been made, maybe even too many - and i assume you picked 3 years, not 4, because of Nash.
I was underwhelmed with the playoff run too, but its possible injuries played a big part. And when healthy against Pittsburgh... yes, ugly games, but they were one of what 2 teams to win in 5 or less games out of 8 series?
I do think we need to trade at least 1 if not 2 defenders for some more offense. Preferably in the mold you discussed, which would be a Lucic / Simmonds type.. scoring touch with toughness (obviously we wont get back that level of talent, but someone who can play that type of role maybe on the 3rd line).
I'm not crazy about waiting on Stepan before making that D- move... we might become desperate sellers like Boston with Boychuk last year.
I really felt like the Rangers controlled the play in the first two
Rounds. Both teams collapsed to limit scoring chances, but I thought the Rangers outplayed both teams the majority of the series despite the scores. I did not think they played to their full potential.
I'm with MAB on trading a guy before Stepan comes due. My first thought on the Klein stuff from Friedman was that the Rangers are playing the media to not look like forced sellers.
but the scores count. You can control a game forever but when the score is 2-1 or 1-0 the opponent is absorbing your best and still has a shot at tying or winning.
I'm not disagreeing - I was just as frustrated the Rangers weren't converting as anyone. All that puck possession is wasted without scoring - if anything, it was detrimental at times because Washington consistently converted on the odd man rushes coming out of the neutral zone or their defensive zone.
I just didn't think we were outplayed in the first two rounds - not that anyone said that, of course.
Part of the reason they weren't scoring and separating themselves...
..was the play of St. Louis. How many misses , whiffs and shanks did he have on quality chances? Many. He wasn't an effective scorer for most of the season outside of his PP contributions.
yet they were a min plus from being eliminated 4-1 to the Caps.
The while league say the Kings shut down the two/three line breakout pass and it shut the Rangers down. Everybody saw it and I find it hard to believe they'll allow the Rangers to get away with it all next regular season.
It's going to be a long season with this group I'm thinking. They've played a lot of hockey.
just my gut. Nash will be worse, and I dont think Brassard will be quite as good, but I expect a lot of guys to be better. McDonagh, Stepan, and the young healthy sized forwards.
RE: Part of the reason they weren't scoring and separating themselves...
..was the play of St. Louis. How many misses , whiffs and shanks did he have on quality chances? Many. He wasn't an effective scorer for most of the season outside of his PP contributions.
but St Louis wasn't great all season. The Rangers couldn't score in the playoffs. Who would have buried the biscuit in the net in replace of St Louis?
The point is someone else is going to play in Marty's spot. He had become a one dimensional player as a PP goal scorer(even that disappeared in the playoffs). I'm expecting a significant all ice contribution from his replacement. That represents a potential significant upgrade to the roster.
i dont think one freakin game against the Kings exposed anything. The Rangers came out the next night and throttled a hot Ottawa team 7-2 or something along those lines.
I do think we need a 3rd line scoring winger -- maybe Semin can fill that role, i dont know. But i want to get back to 4 capable scoring lines - which means Glass needs to go, and we need a 20 goal scorer to anchor that 3rd line. Assuming Zuccs is healthy, our top 2 lines are set. Just trade Girardi, Staal or Klein to clear up space for that 3rd line scorer.
Pieces are there... lets see how this group can do one more year with hopefully a bit more health this go round.
It's never easy or pretty to advance in the stanley cup -- TBL were on death row against lowly Detroit. Kings had 3 game 7s last year. We dont have Toews/Kane/Keith on this roster... it will never be easy (and the luck the Hawks have had in their first roudns with the opposing captains getting hurt early in series every year is astounding)
was actually very good before the AS break, and then got hurt in March. For the season he was t2nd on the team in goals and 4th in points, even missing time. Im convinced that his knee never got better and that's why he stunk up the playoffs.
i dont think one freakin game against the Kings exposed anything. The Rangers came out the next night and throttled a hot Ottawa team 7-2 or something along those lines.
lol - "one freakin game" Actually, it was almost the entire Stanley Cup Finals and a left for dead Kings team which complete shut down the Rangers. If you think that "one freaken game" wasn't a blue print you must have missed the entire playoff yet focused one "freaken" 7-2 win against Ottawa.
I assumed your were talking about the March game against the Garden against LAK when they beat us like 4-1 i think it was.
You are going back to June 2014 Finals.... when the Rangers then changed a decent % of the roster... and finished top 3 in scoring the following season??
The point is someone else is going to play in Marty's spot. He had become a one dimensional player as a PP goal scorer(even that disappeared in the playoffs). I'm expecting a significant all ice contribution from his replacement. That represents a potential significant upgrade to the roster.
Sure, going forward but who? The point I'm making, the Rangers wore down teams by rotating four lines in the regular season. In playoffs with heightened awareness and stopping that breakout pass, the Rangers looked like 92 (sometime around then) with Turcotte type players who couldn't bury the biscuit. The couldn't score and often couldn't even get to the net.
He scored some goals primarily on the PP. He was losing puck battles consistently all season. He was useless on the boards.
As far as Semin you're showing how desperate you've become. Pass on that quitter. He's a spineless thief.
Not sure what you are referring to as "desperate" -- I'll assume we are having an adult conversation for now. I'm not in love with Semin either, but guys like that -- like Pouliot in 2014 -- can work well on this team as long as we only have a few of them.
The biggest reason our playoff scoring went down versus the prior postseason -- well aside from that fact that we faced so many back-ups in 2014 -- was that we got nothing from our 3rd and 4th lines this year. Injuries and inexperience, but also Tanner fucking Glass - played big parts in that. To win in the postseason we need to get back that scoring depth. Our 3rd line needs more punch to it.
I assumed your were talking about the March game against the Garden against LAK when they beat us like 4-1 i think it was.
You are going back to June 2014 Finals.... when the Rangers then changed a decent % of the roster... and finished top 3 in scoring the following season??
How the fuck does this make any sense?
I know you really don't understand hockey or the cap but maybe you try learning something rather than F'bombs and drooling in mass confusion
They didn't rotate four lines nearly as much as the year before
It was a real problem especially on defensive zone draws. The team was fatigued and as injuries shortened the bench in the playoffs we ran out of gas. The tank was empty in games 5 and 7 of the ECF.
I assumed your were talking about the March game against the Garden against LAK when they beat us like 4-1 i think it was.
You are going back to June 2014 Finals.... when the Rangers then changed a decent % of the roster... and finished top 3 in scoring the following season??
How the fuck does this make any sense?
Look at who you're talking to. Why engage a troll?
The Kings in June 2014 sent out a blueprint on how to stop us... and then the following year the Rangers set a franchise points record and won a Presidents Trophy.
as some guy who just got PPGs is nonsense. 5 of his 21 goals were on the PP. Brassard was 6 of 19 PPG and 12 PPA). Kreider 7 of 21.
Goal scorers tend to get PPGs. Nash didnt do it much (6 of 42), but Ovie had 25 PPG. Stamkos, JT, and Seguin all had 13. Pavelski had 19. Take away the PP and Claude Giroux doesnt score as much as Carl Hagelin over 3 seasons (in more game). But then you cant just take away the PP. And there's nothing particularly remarkable about MSL's % of PPGs; if anything it is on the low side.
No shocker you miss so much. The breakout pass was eclipsed by the Kings in both the finals and the regular season final meeting between the two teams. Your type and likely fat ass can't connect the dots that outside of the first min against the Pens the breakout was gone and it was the same blue print the Kings used.
you might be right about the knee... and it may still be hurt which is i guess why no one out there, even a desperate Detroit or a team like the Islanders that could probably use his experience... is interested.
But IIRC he stunk a good solid month even before that knee injury. Dont know if he was playing with something then or if the old adage of "when it goes, it goes fast" ... played a part here too
No shocker you miss so much. The breakout pass was eclipsed by the Kings in both the finals and the regular season final meeting between the two teams. Your type and likely fat ass can't connect the dots that outside of the first min against the Pens the breakout was gone and it was the same blue print the Kings used.
The Rangers, the following season after that 'blueprint', set a franchise record in points, finished 3rd in the league in scoring, and had best record in league... despite getting marginally worse in the offseason (Stralman, Pouliot, deterioration of 4th line, etc) which translated into weaker puck possession numbers.
So.... i dont think you're a dumb guy, just for whatever reason, 20% of the time you talk completely out of your ass.
Did the Rangers not score 20 goals in the Tampa series? And before that Kings series, how many goals did we score against Montreal's backup goalie?
This team has struggled to score playoff games for a decade now. It's not some new phenominon the Kings exposed genius.
Man, 2012 really brings something special to these threads.
I think way too much is made of the impact how much hockey these guys have played has. Sure, if they were all series' like the NYI/WAS series, maybe. But they have three and a half months off before training camp and didn't have many physical games this year. Might impact guys like Hayes who are looking to put on 10 pounds of muscle, but I have a hard time believing it has an impact when they are in great shape and have tons of resources at their disposal to maximize their health.
agree, but its the inevitable excuse many will use when the Rangers S% and thus W/L record inevitably reverts towards the mean a bit next year.
Plus as noted CBJ is a lot better, Pittsburgh is better, the Islanders will be more seasoned and thus a bit better, and Washington probably a bit better.
Man must be nice to be MTL & TBL this year... basically can rest up for their 2nd round rematch again next May. Atlantic division will suck.
The point on MSL is if he isn't scoring he's useless.
You think he's retired by accident? He's become completely one dimensional. We're better without him. Period. It became an addition by subtraction situation.
I fully expect a worse regular season. However, there have been six back-to-back President Trophy winners (this includes the Red Wings who won it before and after the lockout) in its 29 year history. A few teams have won it twice in three years, including the 92 and 94 Rangers. So, it's rare for these teams to fall of the face of the earth.
I expect there to be fewer repeats in the Cap world, though, just as I expect fewer President Trophy winners to win the Cup.
Guys, seriously... just ignore him. We have the same issue on the Met threads. When you don't respond to him he just flails in the wind desperately trying to engage anyone he can. When no one responds, he'll resort to quoting other posts and "+1" -ing them in hopes they'll respond. Eventually he just starts talking to himself and burns himself out.
Every single day it's the same thing.
RE: The point on MSL is if he isn't scoring he's useless.
You think he's retired by accident? He's become completely one dimensional. We're better without him. Period. It became an addition by subtraction situation.
He's always been somewhat one-dimensional. He never really pushed puck possession or was great defensively. But he became such a fucking anchor on any line he was on.
RE: The point on MSL is if he isn't scoring he's useless.
You think he's retired by accident? He's become completely one dimensional. We're better without him. Period. It became an addition by subtraction situation.
I agree if he isnt scoring he's useless. Not sure why he retired (was he unwanted, or did he ask for too much $$ or only some teams). I doubt we'll be better off without him if he plays like first half of the season MSL; we will be better off w/o him if he plays like 2015 playoffs MSL. And we were in a terrible cap crunch.
Im not at all upset that he's gone. It's the right move. I just dont want to unnecessarily drag him down in a manner inconsistent with what I saw.
and a black hole in our bottom 6....Glass. One of those problems is gone. I'm still hopeful the other will be gone as well. We can bring a better roster to the ice this season.
Either way I don't want to win the President's Trophy. Key guys like Giradi and Staal should get fewer minutes even if it means fewer points for the club. The same goes for Nash. Home or away means little in the Stanley Cup Playoffs.
RE: I really felt like the Rangers controlled the play in the first two
Rounds. Both teams collapsed to limit scoring chances, but I thought the Rangers outplayed both teams the majority of the series despite the scores. I did not think they played to their full potential.
I'm with MAB on trading a guy before Stepan comes due. My first thought on the Klein stuff from Friedman was that the Rangers are playing the media to not look like forced sellers.
And this is a big reason why I think the cap as currently implemented is flawed.
Stephan given O'Reilly definitely deserves that pay day, but is he really worth just 2 mill less than a Malkin? Hell no, he's not even an all star...and that is the problem with this cap....an accomplished player is going to get paid remarkably similar to a super star...which means any team with experienced good but not super players is going to be up against the cap putting them at a disadvantage.
In football, you have a franchise QB, he hogs the cap...if you have a so so QB you do have a lot more cap space and this is the issue.
I am really surprised there has not been hardly any national hockey media attention to this problem.
its not ... that .. bad. But yes, it is harder to keep a deep team together that lacks true superstars, than it is to be in Pittsburgh's shoes. also, Crosby signed a below market deal for reasons i dont completely understand. Kudos to Lepew i guess - probably whined his way into getting that deal done.
This team has struggled to score playoff games for a decade now. It's not some new phenominon the Kings exposed genius.
Ok, you don't see it. The Rangers breakout pass just suddenly disappeared for some unknown reason and that's linked to being unable to score for a decade in the playoffs now. That's MAB and strays.
The hockey fans know. That Kings/Rangers game was like a playoff game. The Kings showed everybody how to shut it down just as they shut the Rangers version the previous playoff year.
Stepan will be making more than Tavares when he signs his deal.
Either way I don't want to win the President's Trophy. Key guys like Giradi and Staal should get fewer minutes even if it means fewer points for the club. The same goes for Nash. Home or away means little in the Stanley Cup Playoffs.
+1 - a lot of Rangers have played a lot of hockey the past two years. Asking for three straight long seasons is a lot to ask IMO.
I just hope they aren't dragging like the Kings next season and find themselves fighting for a long while just to get into the playoffs.
Guys, seriously... just ignore him. We have the same issue on the Met threads. When you don't respond to him he just flails in the wind desperately trying to engage anyone he can. When no one responds, he'll resort to quoting other posts and "+1" -ing them in hopes they'll respond. Eventually he just starts talking to himself and burns himself out.
Every single day it's the same thing.
And...
Quote:
RE: We played with a black hole in our top 6....MSL
Giants2012 : 1:12 pm : link : reply
In comment 12365748 Torrag said:
Quote:
Either way I don't want to win the President's Trophy. Key guys like Giradi and Staal should get fewer minutes even if it means fewer points for the club. The same goes for Nash. Home or away means little in the Stanley Cup Playoffs.
but would have been over the cap the past 2 seasons which may have meant no deep playoff runs. Granted we'd be in much better shape going forward but....
#itsjustmath
Buffalo is looking for D- help. They'll probably snag Oduya but i'd like to see us pawn off trade Girardi to them please
Girardi or Staal for Tyler Ennis... prove to us you belong here, Gorton
Or it forces them to pick Stralman over Girardi/Staal
And not give Tanner Glass a deal. Stralman is a million less than Girardi (and reportedly only wanted $4M to sign), Lindberg over Glass last year saves $825K. I made the team better and saved you $200K.
I go to games in Hartford and catch some on TV here. He was a work in progress that started to click some down the stretch. His game really elevated in the post season. That's not to say a cheaper and better alternative to Glass couldn't be had. It could almost by default seeing how bad he was and the overpay on his deal both in $$$ and length.
I could have contributed as much as Glass this season.
My point, one that many others have hammered away at, is that Sather's short-term nature again harms the team. By that time we had three season's of data that this 23 (at the time) year old was a good player that would likely get even better. The $1.7M of cap space was do-able and would not have significantly hurt the team. Stepan wasn't a one year wonder, or even an inconsistent one. He was coming off a near PPG season. These bridge deals are dumb for guys like him.
Ducks trade 41st overall and Emerson Etem to Rangers for Carl Hagelin, 59th overal and 179th overall
NYR trade up to get Ryan Gropp. Great skater with size and a big shot.
Gropp is a 6-2 left wing (30-28-58 in 67 games last season)
This is an analysis of the Rangers PICKS and trades. We don't have a Rangers draft thread
#rangers are trying hard to trade Cam Talbot now. #tvasports
Rangers and Oilers back and forth talking about Talbot. We'll see if it happens or not
Looks like NYR are trading Cam Talbot to EDM for three picks. #TSN
Looks like NYR are trading Cam Talbot to EDM for three picks. #TSN
TRADE: NYR trade Cam Talbot and pick No. 209 to Edmonton for picks Nos. 57, 79 and 184.
Rangers send Cam Talbot and pick 209 to Edmonton for 57, 79 and 184
Now they can squeak under the cap to build next season's squad, but would probably need another trade to move salary out (Klein) if they need room to move.
It appears Sather may have overplayed his hand on Talbot for now. Another opportunity could arise at a later date. I question whether his value will ever be this high again.
These last two off seasons have been poorly managed by the front office. If we don't win the Kevin Hayes lottery it would be even worse.
The team still has significant cap issues.
Rangers have traded No. 57 to Washington for 62 and 113
I still think another move will come in trading Klein or another for big club help.
Etem is still very young, cheap and has potential. He's bigger than Hagelin albeit a lot slower. I have no feeling about the deal. Actually, I'm a bit numb. But yes, considering we gave up Hagelin and Talbot, we're worse. The cupboard was bare and we needed to replenish it. I'll miss both and I'll miss the chemistry Hags had with Hayes.
His decison could possibly change.
The offseason just began so i wouldn't panic about high draft picks in the NHL.
NYR select Robin Kovacs. For those about to quick Google his stats, keep in mind he led his SHL-2 team in scoring as a teenager.
Kovacs - A supervillain in the making. Pesky winger who does not give up and always seems to be johnny-on-the-spot.
Sean Hartnett @HartnettHockey 25s26 seconds ago
Robin Kovacs has a reputation for being a speedy, possession-strong winger that plays an agitating game. Special teams performer. #NYR
Kovacs - A supervillain in the making. Pesky winger who does not give up and always seems to be johnny-on-the-spot.
Sean Hartnett @HartnettHockey 25s26 seconds ago
Robin Kovacs has a reputation for being a speedy, possession-strong winger that plays an agitating game. Special teams performer. #NYR
2015 eligible D Sergey Zborovskiy has stood out. Covers a lot of ice with his skating. He's an asset on both ends of the ice.
Brandon Watts @_BrandonWatts Oct 19
2015 Draft eligible dman Sergey Zborovskiy has been impressive so far. Smart on both ends of the ice and gets around with ease. @FCHockey
Cody Nickolet @DubFromAbove 1m1 minute ago
Regina D Sergey Zborovskiy goes to NYR at 79. Big boy, plays a hard game. I rated him 96th on my WHL list, though, not draftable to me.
Corey Pronman @coreypronman 25s25 seconds ago
NYR takes Saarela. Former top prospect struggled at times this season. Small with high skill level.
Deep sleeper alert: Aleksi Saarela has big talent as top line scoring W but has been plagued by injuries. @Ian_Gooding @TodaysSlapshot
Shawn Reis @ShawnReis 2h2 hours ago
Don't know anything about Aleksi Saarela but @YakovMironov has him in his top 30 so he's another player to look for.
Chaz MichaelMichaels @_NYRvana_ 1m1 minute ago
Saarela has potential 1st line skill. Insane shot and is fast. Needs to continue to work hard and develop. Very risky but I like the pick
Matt @mavanco 2m2 minutes ago
Aleksi Saarela, ISS 103, top 9 depth center. Very good skater, dynamic offensive skill. Improved D zone play this past season.
Never know. Buch was quoted as saying he didn't think he would make the team though.
We'll see.
At 113, Rangers take Brad Morrison, a center for Prince George Cougars. 23-27-50 in 67 games
Chaz MichaelMichaels @_NYRvana_ 14m14 minutes ago
NYR SELECT BRAD MORRISON HE PLAYS LIKE MARCHAND I WROTE ABOUT ON @BlueSeatBlogs
Mitch Brown @MitchLBrown 14m14 minutes ago
NYR take Brad Morrison. Human highlight reel. Insanely high skill level. Not afraid of the tough areas of the ice. Nice pick.
bill gordon @UndeRadar 12m12 minutes ago
Brad Morrison comes from a family with a lot of hockey pedigree, including his Uncle Mark-drafted by the #NYR in 1981. #NHLDraft
Sean Hartnett @HartnettHockey 3m3 minutes ago
#NYR selects another Swedish winger with the 119th overall pick -- Daniel Bernhardt.
Matt @mavanco 2m2 minutes ago
Daniel Bernhardt is not ranked by ISS so I cannot regurgitate a scouting report.
Mike Gosnell @MikeGosnell_IUP 9m9 minutes ago
Really like NYR's 4th round pick Daniel Bernhardt. Excellent numbers with Djurgarden in the J20SuperElit.
Alex Nunn @aj_ranger 12s13 seconds ago
Another speedy, skilled winger. Made steady improvement each of the past few years in junior.
Etem sounds like he may have a bit more offensive upside and is younger and cheaper.
He posted this one a little earlier:
@NYP_Brooksie: Trade driven by cap considerations...Etem is impending RFA without arb rights, qualifier 850,500...Hagelin would have been at least 3.5
I assume that second tweet meant for the year or two, while the first was for a long term deal.
Stop acting like there was no basis for it. Darren Dreger reported it. Along with Bob McKenzie, Dreger is the most reliable NHL reporter out there. Also, let's not forget what Robin Lehner fetched
I know I know, no team would ever do that.
Etem sounds like he may have a bit more offensive upside and is younger and cheaper.
Hags sucks. Glad to see him go, and if he commanded 4.25 mil and we paid it, we would have been fools. Anything we get back is a steal for him, he has tons of speed but hands of stone.
Rangers on verge of completing trade for goaltender.
Rangers on verge of completing trade for goaltender.
I know exactly what I am watching and i know exactly what he is worth, the bupkis we got back for him, was fine.
He doesn't suck compared to Tanner Glass, but if we paid him 4+ he would definitely suck. It is all in context.
But at least he's unambiguous about it. That should count for something.
Very, very good defensively and a key PKer.
And his speed adds a dimension that doesnt show up in his personal stats. Specifically, Hags routinely reversed the ice -- he come one the ice with the puck in our defensive zone, and leaves with the puck in the other team's zone.
George Richards @GeorgeRichards 11m11 minutes ago
When asked what the #FlaPanthers offered for Cam Talbot, Dale Tallon spit "a lot. A whole lot." Sounds like he thought Panthers had it.
You said he "sucks" and completely failed to validate that opinion, so...
George Richards @GeorgeRichards 11m11 minutes ago
When asked what the #FlaPanthers offered for Cam Talbot, Dale Tallon spit "a lot. A whole lot." Sounds like he thought Panthers had it.
I have a hard time thinking the Rangers didn't fuck this up.
They got more than what I thought fair value was... But I can't help but be disappointed.
Very, very good defensively and a key PKer.
And his speed adds a dimension that doesnt show up in his personal stats. Specifically, Hags routinely reversed the ice -- he come one the ice with the puck in our defensive zone, and leaves with the puck in the other team's zone.
Besides last year, where he was very close to a point a game scorer, Giroix has always been above a point a game. Who cares where he gets his goals, what the PP doesn't count? Giroux is good because Giroix produces. Hagelin is mediocre, because he doesn't produce. This is not rocket science. And I agree hags is a good penalty killer, but am I going to pay him for that?
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Not one person has made one legitimate argument that Hags is worth 4 million and that is what this is all about. To say that it is a different discussion is absurd, it is the discussion.
You said he "sucks" and completely failed to validate that opinion, so...
That is fine if you disagree. but, again, I said he sucks in the context of a 4.25 million number, and I think you just need to look at his stat line to begin and end that argument. To make your guys point, somebody said he had more 5 on 5 production than Giroux, do I think Giroux is good? That is an argument, Giroux gets his points, where do you care where he gets it from. That is why he gets paid. Hagelin doesn't get his points. If he was anything more than mediocre with his speed, he would get more assists than 18.
Yandle and Boyle were brought in for the PP. The PP hasn't failed due to a lack of investment.
He's a very, very good player overall. So he doesn't have great hands and doesn't score a ton of goals. Big deal
b) we decided to spend precious cap space on Glass and extending Girardi
Also Giroux would get 9-10 million as a UFA. And Benoit Pouliot got 4 million AAV for 5 years off a 15 goal season in NY (and an otherwise VERY disappointing career).
I think you just dont understand how much UFAs cost. Im reasonably sure Hags would get $5 million as a UFA.
b) we decided to spend precious cap space on Glass and extending Girardi
This is an oblique way of saying that Hags wasn't move because he wasn't worth the 4.25 a year.
Well, advance stats all say Hagelins production goes well beyond his goals and assists numbers.
You're just wrong.
He is worth it and they had to trade him or someone else to cover up for previous mistakes.
No, you're flailing. You said he sucks and isnt worth 4 million. That's a totally different argument than the Rangers shouldnt put their $4 million into Hags (a position I advocated in a lot of game threads this year, and I love Hags). But even your argument is kind of silly since (1) there is no reason to favor PP production over ES production and indeed, a lot of evidence that PP is the least important of the three phases of the game. And (2) the alternatives to trading Hags probably wouldnt help the PP either; we're out of trade ammo, the UFA market sucks, and guys like Klein and Glass (other $$ savings centers) dont contribute on the PP either. Dont pretend like the options are Hags vs. Sheldon Souray.
He's a very, very good player overall. So he doesn't have great hands and doesn't score a ton of goals. Big deal
Well said.
Not trading Girardi during the 2014 deadline was just killer.
Good results for 2014-15. 7-4-1OTL-2SO 14GP/.936SP/1.89GAA
Cap hit is 750K. Final year of his deal.
Good value trade. I'd expect Halverson or Shestyorkin to be ready for the 2016-17 season.
Usually you wouldnt bring up a goalie like the two we took last year to be backups to a franchise goalie in their age 20 seasons. Halverson to the AHL, Shetsyorkin remains in the KHL in 2016-17.
I figured it had to be something like that. Otherwise the return on Hags is just dreadful.
Pretty disappointing to get just one D and no 6' center prospects.
Good results for 2014-15. 7-4-1OTL-2SO 14GP/.936SP/1.89GAA
Cap hit is 750K. Final year of his deal.
Good value trade. I'd expect Halverson or Shestyorkin to be ready for the 2016-17 season.
Raanta played in 2013-14. 13-5-4 1SO 25GP/.897/2.71
Raata seems very good and a guy with some potential. When was the last time we had a Finn? Jokinen?
I think it's hard to disagree with the premise that trading Hagelin was ultimately a result of some questionable decisions made previously. Those have been well documented.
I'm curious to know what you'd have them do differently in the present, given the past. You were just hired as GM after the loss to TB. What were the better ideas than what happened today?
Trade Steps? Plan on possibly losing Kreider or Hayes or Miller or Fast?
I'm sure there are a dozen viable and reasonable answers. I'm just trying to get a better read on where people are coming from.
Maybe he can replace Glass
Moreover, a better alternative would have been trading Klein and holding on to Hags.
Im totally sold on Skapski being a better alternative for 2016-17 as a 20 game NHL backup than those two kids. Being an NHL backup at age 20 is a waste of an important developmental year. Also, the Russian needs a lot of work. If he's going to make it at his size, he needs to be more technically proficient. He cant get by on agility alone with NHL-level passers and shooters.
It's a fair point about the returns we saw today. I thought we should and could have done better in both instances.
Doesn't change my view that disposing of one of Stepan and Hagelin was the best long-term move for the squad.
I know, Stralman is water under the bridge, let it go. But
this seems like similar water under the same bridge.
And Sather did this in part to have $$ to re-sign Yandle*,
whose impact was so significant that Sather had to make
that deal?
*If I have this correct
Great hockey skin!! Waaaaaaaaa
I know, Stralman is water under the bridge, let it go. But
this seems like similar water under the same bridge.
ct
Nah, Hagelin was traded while Stralman wasn't resigned. Now if Sather trades more prospects and draft choices for a speedy winger which commands a Hagelin price tag then it's like Stralman.
The only guy I really want is Erik Condra and maybe Shawn Matthias. I hope no one blocks Lindberg from coming to the big leagues. He's earned it with his play in Hartford.
The going rate for a goalie has been a 3rd round pick for a few years now. He received three picks.
Hags had to go at his price tag and slats received a good player with a lower price tag in return.
What's the problem?
As far as Hags it's linked to all the stupid moves he's made going back to Girardi and Glass. You can't not talk about it because it had a direct effect on our ability to ink Carl. Millions pissed away for a poor return in performance. $4.5M for Dan freaking Boyle at 38? That's money well spent?
His judgement can no longer be trusted imo.
Did you see his interview on the Rangers site? He looked like he was going to cry.
When the going rate for a goalie is a #3 pick and he received more, that's a windfall. After the first 15 picks the NHL draft is about as accurate as a weather forecast. The more picks the better b/c children, in which few can bench press 135lbs 10 reps, are the choices.
Boyle, Glass, etc were ridiculous moves. As far as Hags he did get some solid return and the kid likely has a better shot than Hags. Looking forward, where do we want Hags to play? Nash, Kreider, Hayes, Miller, Zucs, Fast with Lindberg and Buchnevich in the near future, where does Hags play? Sure, Lindberg can play center, but we're looking at nine forwards already with Hags likely stuck on a 3rd line making some decent coin which could result in losing a top 6 forward.
Not a fan of Slats for along while but can't kill him this weekend. He made the team younger, less costly and added quite a few draft picks. Meanwhile, the President trophy winning team is basically still all here outside of one.
The later every single time.
What's a lot more? Draft picks? That Florida team is a fast growing power in the Eastern Conference. IMO, you don't help them by giving them their #1 goalie for maybe's.
It's a bummer if we passed on Jimmy Hayes but I don't know what the whole package was going to be and it also may have been difficult to retain him anyway. We did need draft picks because we needed to re-stock the pipe a bit.
We can certainly argue that the return on Hagelin was less than what we'd have wanted but we're in a cap crunch and we just weren't going to be able to afford to pay him and retain guys like Stepan, Kreider, Hayes, etc. Better to get something than nothing.
We've already replaced Talbot with Raanta and I don't think there will be much of a drop off there. Etem has a ceiling that he hasn't come close to yet.
It felt disappointing overall but I think a lot of the rumors created unrealistic expectations.
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That the Rangers were offered a lot more for Talbot from the Panthers. So the question is, as a GM, do you take less and send the goalie out west, or do you look to help your team further and play against him 5 or 6 times a year?
What's a lot more? Draft picks? That Florida team is a fast growing power in the Eastern Conference. IMO, you don't help them by giving them their #1 goalie for maybe's.
I think it included Jimmy Hayes' brother, who will be due for some $$$
And the Rangers do okay in the Hags trade if Etem becomes a decent third liner, which they seem to think he can be. The issue is that the Rangers don't have the top tier talent other teams do, so they have to win on quality depth. This hurts that ability a lot. And then when you have Glass killing an entire line, it becomes hard. Hopefully Fast and Lindberg can mitigate Hagelin's loss. We'll see.
Jon's spot on. Sather has had a bad 18 months outside of Hayes, IMV, and most of those moves were criticized from the start.
Relative team success (and still without a Cup) shouldn't make us think management is doing well.
I think it's hard to disagree with the premise that trading Hagelin was ultimately a result of some questionable decisions made previously. Those have been well documented.
I'm curious to know what you'd have them do differently in the present, given the past. You were just hired as GM after the loss to TB. What were the better ideas than what happened today?
Trade Steps? Plan on possibly losing Kreider or Hayes or Miller or Fast?
I'm sure there are a dozen viable and reasonable answers. I'm just trying to get a better read on where people are coming from.
There's way too much information we don't have here. A lot depends on what Stepan gets. It's a lot more understandable if he signs for $6.5M. But of he comes in below that, I think Klein/Glass maneuvering would have allowed the team to keep Hagelin.
With that said, I wouldn't be shocked if there was a desire to change the locker room a bit as well.
But, the lack of scoring talent on the top lines, and missing some size/physicality over 60 minutes needs to be fixed. Very good NHL contending roster, but still needs something.
Brooks' latest touches on some of these same points.
Link - ( New Window )
Sorry, but he has always rubbed me the wrong way, and he is a former Ranger player too boot. I know he was frustrated with losing the greatest player in the game, then Mess, but that was a low blow to the Rangers management back then, in fact when he got here he fucked up everything until a cap was forced on him and he had to get back to being a real GM and actually fuckin work!
It was easy to knock Smith, but he did everything to get us a cup, that was what everyone wanted, he did screw us in the long term with some of his trades to get that cup, but at least he got us a cup, but fuck face did nothing but cry when he got here about our horrible system that was bare, well he had all the money he could want, the ability to spend it, and his great brain, so what happened, we were going to win every year.
Not one cup is a failure, period, there is no excuse anymore, and so those who want to make one up, go ahead, he is stripping our system and not winning any cups, sorry but that is horrible. I am 61, yet I still want a good minor league system before anything else, that is the way to keep an organization a winner, then if you have a good GM, he makes savvy moves to get you over the hump, he has not delivered on this.
There are good people in the organization, guys who did build our minor league system, these guys need to be handed the keys to the kingdom now, if that does not happen you will not only see no cup, but you will see a poor team for years in the very near future with the way he is running it now. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am, but time will show I will be correct, I love the Rangers, and I have been a fan since the 1966/1967 season. I have seen this act before.
+1
He did say that.
Quite a run and snowstorm he and Muckler were running in Edmonton (if you know what I mean).
As Greg has posted, adding McIlrath to the mix would give us three slow defenseman, assuming Klein were the one to go.
Also, Brooks loves overexaggerating. I don't anticipate the team being the top of the East again, but I doubt they're a fringe playoff team.
Let's not forget the team was at its best the back half of the regular season - when Nash's production deteriorated and MSL died.
As Greg has posted, adding McIlrath to the mix would give us three slow defenseman, assuming Klein were the one to go.
Also, Brooks loves overexaggerating. I don't anticipate the team being the top of the East again, but I doubt they're a fringe playoff team.
Let's not forget the team was at its best the back half of the regular season - when Nash's production deteriorated and MSL died.
Almost never mentioned is Hunwick -- I like what I saw of him.
Jay: Yes, I like Hunwick a lot as a 6/7D. If one of our top six is moved, I'd love him back.
Or, prepare to bury/trade Glass.
And the same applies to Glass, who I think could be traded. I just don't think the team agrees with our viewpoint.
One of the two has to go IMO.
With that said, I wouldn't be shocked if there was a desire to change the locker room a bit as well.
so the answer to improving the lockerroom is trading the hardest working player on the team? yet another guy that plays a great two way game an helps kill penalties?
and while his postseason wasn't good - wasnt it crystal clear to anyone with a clue that MSL killed that entire line?
the talbot deal pisses me off too only because we had two 2s from Calgary and I'm sure we could have got buffalo's #21. sather overplayed his hand and ended up with a dildo in his ass when lehner and hamilton got dealt. but this is like losing Boyle last season... the hagelin deal still has me dumbfounded.
trading klein talbot and glass an cutting msl would have solved our 2015-2016 and probably 2017 cap issues. that was the crystal clear way to go -- somehow hagelin was dealt and we don't even have duclair here to replace him
and all this in an offseason where there isn't going to be a gamechanger. we were a presidents trophy winner with a fuckload of injuries in the postseason built to win now.... NOW we decide to recoup some (irrelevant) picks? fuck sather
but we took a serious step back this week. I do think AV knows how to win in the regular season though. just not sure with the 3rd and 4th lines wacked with incompetency the past two offaeasons that this team can give itself another chance. I don't know. as Brett said - Its becoming a two line team with a good defense/goalie and others have better top lines
MAB: I'm not sure if NHL coaches desire a locker room as chummy as the Rangers seem to be. A desire to shake things up could have played a role. Trading one of the more well-liked guys in the room changes the dynamics a bit.
And I think the team probably views Fast/Lindberg as comparable players to Hagelin.
With that said, I would have tried to sign Hagelin for a one (or preferably two) year deal at $3.5M. Moving up and getting Etem seems an inferior alternative than keeping Hagelin for a year.
MAB: I'm not sure if NHL coaches desire a locker room as chummy as the Rangers seem to be. A desire to shake things up could have played a role. Trading one of the more well-liked guys in the room changes the dynamics a bit.
not attacking you - but if this is the mindset it makes no sense. I thought we'd win the metro again this year before this weekend - now after basically giving cam and hagelin (and MSL) away... not so sure. window is closing fast folks.
...then resign now you fucking moron
now if there are internal replacements for hagelin that werent there for Klein or even Staal post July 1..... I vehemently disagree...
but at least in the latter case we aren't putting this franchise in the hands of gutt feelings and bullshit nonsense.
where did you even read this utter bullshit excuse anyway?
He scored 19 goals in 101 games this season.
Him leaving is no indication the door is shutting. Not to mention, it's June and the return for Hags was fine with reinforcements already in the system before free agency even begins.
is sky falling? no, but I no longer consider us the favorites in the metro. maybe July 1 changes things - we do have a surplus of defenders, I just think our mgmt team vastly overplayed their hand with talbot and got caught realing when dougie Hamilton unexpectedly got dealt.
hagelin doesn't play powerplay and was one of our best PKrs. hardest working guy on the team. this trade sucks. I know we all root for the laundry but it's guys like hagelin that have made me fall in love with this team.
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MAB: I'm not sure if NHL coaches desire a locker room as chummy as the Rangers seem to be. A desire to shake things up could have played a role. Trading one of the more well-liked guys in the room changes the dynamics a bit.
not attacking you - but if this is the mindset it makes no sense. I thought we'd win the metro again this year before this weekend - now after basically giving cam and hagelin (and MSL) away... not so sure. window is closing fast folks.
Didn't you just pick the Islanders to win the division a week ago?
The going rate for a backup goalie in only a third rounder yet slats got three picks. The return was great. Haglein has already been replaced and the Rangers spent two picks last year on goalies and just traded Haggerty (a freebee college free agent) for a backup.
The Rangers are fine and the door is not closing b/c they lost a 26 year old who never scored 20 goals, a 41 year old with one foot in the hockey grave and backup goalie.
Also, look at the video below if you don't think teams trade guys for idiotic reasons (culture, sleeping with someone's wife, etc.). The fact the Rangers signs sleds like Glass for toughness makes me think there's a possibility they wanted to shake things up.
Bruins discussing Seguin - ( New Window )
Greed is good but it's also delusional. The Rangers weren't getting Gretzky for a backup goalie and Hagelin was never Jari Kurri.
Let's come back to reality.
Talbot was the consensus prize on the goaltending market - yet Lehner fetched more than he did. Then Calgary made a trade... Edmonton traded two picks, and the market evaporated.
they did better than getting calgarys two second rounders?
no. it was arrogant nonsense - we all knew when they waited as long as they did it would blow up on them.
regardless ... hopefully Hank stays healthy. and we all trust allaire to work with the new backup to get him up to speed.
the real crushing blow was giving up hagelin for an inferior player. yes, to your point hagelin was replaced..... with a lesser player. where does this leave us?
I don't know how you can be satisfied when all data points indicate the team could have done better.
Did you want to send him to Florida for Hayes brother? So the Panthers get a solid goalie with that growing power and the Rangers can't afford Hayes?
The Rangers got three picks for a backup goalie. End of story
the real crushing blow was giving up hagelin for an inferior player. yes, to your point hagelin was replaced..... with a lesser player. where does this leave us?
With a younger player, more cap space and the ability to promote from within.
You really thought the whole roster was coming back? They'll be more changes coming.
Did you want to send him to Florida for Hayes brother? So the Panthers get a solid goalie with that growing power and the Rangers can't afford Hayes?
The Rangers got three picks for a backup goalie. End of story
Like Phil said, Gorton's demeanor was much different than we often see. And his comments were more damning than his body language.
I'd have no issue trading him to the Islanders or Flyers if that were the best offer on the table. Neither Florida or Buffalo are even in the division.
And if the team were that damn worried about him burning them, they should have sat the guy who gave up six goals twice in the ECF down and asked him who he'd waive his NMC for instead.
The Florida Panthers were believed to be offering two 3rd round picks, a 5th round pick, and Jimmy Hayes for Cam Talbot.
Did you want to send him to Florida for Hayes brother? So the Panthers get a solid goalie with that growing power and the Rangers can't afford Hayes?
The Rangers got three picks for a backup goalie. End of story
Yes. Yes, I would've preferred that. You know he'd be a backup to Luongo.
Sather screwed the pooch. No other way to say it. Fuck Talbot staying in the conference (not division, CONFERENCE). It's not a big deal, especially since he'd be backing up Luongo. And if Sather has so much confidence in Talbot's ability that he could turn around Florida, why the hell would he trade him, let alone for cents on the dollar? If anything, you can trade him at the trading deadline and get a king's ransom for goalie-needy teams.
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Some fans are too hung up on the 2nd Round IMO. Heck, the Rangers just traded for Etem who was 1st Rounder. Hiw come people aren't excited? Probably b/c, like I've said before (any manynof you already know this) you can almost throw out the Round for the NHL draft after the first 10-12 picks. This isn't the NFL draft including young men north of 20 years of age. These are a bunch boys in the 17-18 range and we've seen how often these picks miss.
The Rangers early round draft history has been scary bad with a few hits. For every Kreider there are many misses while Buch, DuClair were 3rd rounders, Graves is in the pipeline as a 4th Rounder and Fast went in Round 6.
The more picks the better for the NHL draft as i see it. If the higher picks were so great how come we're more excited about Buch and Graves rather than and Tambelini and McIlrath?
So was I.
In 74 NHL games he's scored 12 goals and 21 points.
Even if he isn't a top six forward, 15 goals and 30 points is not an unreasonable expectation, nor is out of line to say that a 20 goal, 40 point player isn't lurking in there somewhere.
Just as a point of reference, over the last two seasons, here are J.T. Miller's numbers:
NHL - 88 GP, 13 goals, 29 points
AHL - 59 GP, 21 goals, 58 points
Besides the top three picks, are four through 10 slam dunks?
Wouldn't worry about the draft.
In 74 NHL games he's scored 12 goals and 21 points.
Even if he isn't a top six forward, 15 goals and 30 points is not an unreasonable expectation, nor is out of line to say that a 20 goal, 40 point player isn't lurking in there somewhere.
Just as a point of reference, over the last two seasons, here are J.T. Miller's numbers:
NHL - 88 GP, 13 goals, 29 points
AHL - 59 GP, 21 goals, 58 points
I agree and I think Etem will do well. It would've been really nice though to gave a guy who will most assuredly replace Hagelin's numbers in Hayes.
It is funny that the Bruins only received an extra second rounder for Hamilton compared to Reinhart, though. Apparently the Bruins really wanted him out West (and not to EDM) and didn't even do a good job of letting teams know he was available. Total fucking clowns.
But that's the entire point: they weren't taking on salary, they have cap issues. That's why Hags got moved.
All this talk of sending him out of conference seems silly.
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But that's the entire point: they weren't taking on salary, they have cap issues. That's why Hags got moved.
All this talk of sending him out of conference seems silly.
I agree. I buy that speculation the least - especially because FL/BUF are likely a few years away from being true contenders.
Trading Hagelin puts more pressure on the continued development of Hayes/Miller. I'm not as down on the Hagelin trade as I was when I first heard of it - I would have liked to got that second straight up for him.
He's absolutely got Pronger/Weber potential IMO.
Strome before him I guess, he's got some good upside, but Marner I think the Leafs regret (at least I hope so)
Some fans are too hung up on the 2nd Round IMO. Heck, the Rangers just traded for Etem who was 1st Rounder. Hiw come people aren't excited? Probably b/c, like I've said before (any manynof you already know this) you can almost throw out the Round for the NHL draft after the first 10-12 picks. This isn't the NFL draft including young men north of 20 years of age. These are a bunch boys in the 17-18 range and we've seen how often these picks miss.
The Rangers early round draft history has been scary bad with a few hits. For every Kreider there are many misses while Buch, DuClair were 3rd rounders, Graves is in the pipeline as a 4th Rounder and Fast went in Round 6.
The more picks the better for the NHL draft as i see it. If the higher picks were so great how come we're more excited about Buch and Graves rather than and Tambelini and McIlrath?
And this was a quality thought, and something I discussed with another BBI'er prior to Talbot's trade- would you rather have had two seconds from EDM or Buffalo's 21st? The NHL is such a crapshoot I'd have preferred the two picks. These are guys usually 3-4 years (and often 20-30 pounds) away from contributing. The talent gap between a guy in the 20's and 40's is probably minuscule. And it seems likely the Rangers got a guy they had in the top 15-20 at 41.
We've known since last offseason a core player would be moved, even if Glass and Talbot et al were moved. They literally can't keep everyone, there's always tough choices to make under a cap.
Of all their core players, which one would you move now or a year from now? I think Hags was the obvious choice, in reality. He is a third liner and they have prospects lined up to take that roster spot in the relative near future.
At the same time, this is why many questioned the DG extension, and signing Dan Boyle.
The deterioration in possession is weird because he played mostly with Hayes, who seemed to push possession more than Hagelin according to Hockey Analysis's stats.
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Despite sentimentality towards Hags, I'm ok with that deal and the logic of it. Talbot is a bit more frustrating and feels like we botched that. Although Gorton did mention it felt like the offers were changing seemingly by the minute. Seemed like an odd situation to maneuver.
I get the move and I like the direction of the team. I assume Brass, Kreider, Hayes, Miller, Fast and Stef will all be as good or better than last year. That alone make the team better as a whole. MSL and Haglin's production can be replaced.
Etem in that roster spot, Lindberg in Sheppard's roster spot?
Are you speaking about 2011-2012? I'm in total agreement - that team was not nearly as good as the #1 seed indicated. I never felt like they were going to win a Cup. All those guys you listed are quality support players, but lacked the talent to carry a team.
I'm starting to think I've been overrating the defensive core. Girardi is really not good. I think he can be a #4 defenseman, but he's paid and played like a top pair d-man.
I know he's essentially in charge of deciding when to retire himself so I won't get too worked up about it. I just hope it's soon for all our sakes.
Trading Callahan and Girardi for picks+prospects (rumored to be a first and a quality prospect for both), re-signing Stralman, etc... I think they have a year or two left of being one of the top five or so teams, and then slowly decline from there.
But even that's hard to feel good about in a league where the Cup champions didn't make the playoffs and the Bruins disappeared overnight.
I know he's essentially in charge of deciding when to retire himself so I won't get too worked up about it. I just hope it's soon for all our sakes.
It's a huge issue - coaches by their nature have to be short-term oriented. GM's are supposed to be the long-term thinkers who care about three to five years from now. And Sather hasn't.
Fancy Stats on Girardi - ( New Window )
Scuba diver Callahan has sucked in the playoffs. I'd love a guy like Dubinsky on the team, though.
Nash had a good post-season. Much better than the past two as a Ranger - and not just in a 'he backchecks' way.
Also, I think Fast is Hag's replacement. By pedigree, Fast actually has the better offensive upside, and is already 80+% of the skater/def forward that Hags is. And I love me some Hags.
I'm pretty sure it was a quote form Clark himself... Let me find a link.
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Should be able to accomplish that with Glass. But the issue is that we simply have too many defensemen right now -- in fact if we dont move anyone off the backline, we lose some kids to waivers come September. So someone has to be moved - my guess is Klein, but we'll see.... and Klein's deal is quite team friendly so i really hope he is not given away.
MAB, as we often say it appears the team holds Glass in higher regard than we do. Which is why I've been saying Hags appeared likely gone in trade, and one D-man (Klein or Boyle, I hope).
I'm optimistic McIl earns a roster spot this Fall, Lindberg as well, and that Skjei will be up sometime during the season. Add them to Etem, and you've got an excellent infusion on paper.
There is not a reasonable explanation out there for valuing him highly. He's a 'physical player' that sucks at hockey -- the game is too fast now to have this kind of guy on your roster. And we need to beat teams by rolling 4 quality lines - our top lines cannot match up with other teams that have benefited from multiple lottery picks the past 10 years.
Glass would be less valued if the D and/or Miller, Hayes, and Nash took the body more. 13 feet of Hayes + Nash combined gets out-hit by 4.2 feet of Zucc. Staal and McDonagh could do a bit less massaging and a bit more banging.
Again, despite having just 11 forwards, AV trusted Glass to just 6 minutes in game 7... and still had a -1 in that abbreviated time.
I did forget they became an AHL team, though. Thanks.
Would be nice if McIlrath had some wheels.
So glad we picked him over Tarasenko.
Top nine forwards (pretty young group with the exception of Nash):
Nash, Kreider, Brass, Stepan, Zucc, Hayes, Miller, Fast and Etem.
Bottom three:
Glass, Sheppard, Moore, Borque
I'll go to war with that.
See below for hit stats. Glass is one of the most prolific hitters in the league when you adjust for minutes. 8th in the NHL in hits/min for guys with at least 100 hits.
Link - ( New Window )
Add Hunwick at $600k and you've spent exactly $12.6M, which is their current space.
Kreider got two years, $4.95M.
I think Zucc could have gotten $6M+ if he were a UFA in this market, and took a discount to stay with the Rangers.
I'm a huge critic of handing out NMC's the way Sather has, but I'd support giving it to Stepan if we could get him for $6M or under. A $6.5M number seems appropriate given his RFA status - anything lower would almost be a favor.
Give him some massively frontloaded term, no NMC. Then if we want we can move him in a few years to a team more interested in salary than cap #. Though I'm happy to have him as a 15 year Ranger. I dont get why some people were saying "Hags or Stepan". Stepan is one of the core guys with McDonagh and Kreider.
I'd take Stepan, but I think it's awfully close.
If their ages were equal I could coin flip it.
If their ages were equal I could coin flip it.
Stepan is better in all phases than Brassard except PP. I dont think it's a close call except that Stepan will be substantially more expensive.
I'd take Step but I do think it's close.
Last year it was the Hayes line. Usually with Hags (~73%), but then about 70% with Fast, Miller, and MSL -- two rookies and a dying vet (though Fast was good defensively). Hayes was ok defensively but couldnt win a draw to save his life. <20% of Hayes's faceoffs were in the defensive zone.
If we could build a proper 3rd line with a good faceoff man and two defensively responsible wingers, then Stepan could carry a much lower burden in starting in the defensive zone, and thereby score more. And guess what! Lindberg's calling card is faceoff work and (because he's a Swede) two-way play. If all goes well, Lindbeg-Fast-___(Miller?) will be that more traditional 3rd line.
BTW, can we bring in a fucking faceoff coach or something?
So you'd play Hayes or Miller on the 4th line? I wouldnt.
I'm hoping a fresh start helps Etem in a similar manner.
RE: Faceoffs - I've always thought this was something you could get to pedestrian (45%ish) fairly quickly. It makes no sense. Stepan is actually the biggest contributor in this regard due to the sheer number of faceoffs he takes relative to Hayes, who has a worse %.
He's feisty too.
Classic Oscar - ( New Window )
Centers should be over 50% because of all the faceoffs taken by non-centers. It's significant -- last year of our 4917 F/Os, non-centers took 9+% of our faceoffs.
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So you'd play Hayes or Miller on the 4th line? I wouldnt.
Good point. Poor counting on my side. Given the skill sets in play, I'd keep Etem on 3rd and Fast on 4th.
Given the depth of talent, it feels SOOO important to dump Glass and roll 4 lines. We are inevitably going to have at least one really talented winger on the 4th line, and given what Moore can do with able linemates and minutes, it's such a shame to let the existence of Glass damn that unit to sheltered minutes.
I agree he has more skills and talent than Stepan. But Stepan is a much better player IMO. Skills and talent only take you so far.
Centers should be over 50% because of all the faceoffs taken by non-centers. It's significant -- last year of our 4917 F/Os, non-centers took 9+% of our faceoffs.
I made this point to a friend during the playoffs. Miller as a wing on one side of Stepan and taking the draws makes a ton of sense.
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He'll make some bonehead mistakes and draw penalties out of frustration too often, but I'd suggest he's got more skills and talent than Stepan.
I agree he has more skills and talent than Stepan. But Stepan is a much better player IMO. Skills and talent only take you so far.
For certain.
I've read multiple people say that he's been ready for the NHL for over a year. I'm excited. Swap out Glass for me/pjcas/a traffic cone and the team has four good lines again.
Stepan-Hayes-Kreider: key here is Hayes's patience and vision, which is really remarkable. Hayes dishes to two guys who can bury it, and is relieved of the stress of being a 3C
Lindberg-Fast-Miller: good defensively with the Swede, and Miller's game is growing. I think this will end up a hitting, hard working 3rd line that can really score.
Moore-two other guys: Etem has to earn a spot. I remember at one point last year Moore was +2 while Glass was -18, which essentially meant Moore was approx +20 without Glass. Playing 4th line minutes. What a fucking tragic waste of a great 4th line center.
I see no reason to reward Etem over Fast to start. Injuries will probably have both on the 3rd line soon enough anyway.
They look four deep at C now, would think Hayes kicks to wing for a long look.
You're gonna trust the Gorton's fisherman? Nice. Y'all are the new Fishsticks...
(I'll show myself out...)
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away.
So...
You're gonna trust the Gorton's fisherman? Nice. Y'all are the new Fishsticks...
(I'll show myself out...)
*GROOOOOOOOOAN*
I'd take Snow's past 18 months over Sather's, if that's worth anything...
I just can't believe the articles stating that they only shopped Hamilton to 8 or 9 teams. You're in the middle of blowing things up - who gives a shit who you're fucking helping? You aren't competing for a Cup with these moves. Maximize value.
That's what I said - my dad said he doesn't think anyone wants him at his age/cap hit.
BTW, Canadiens are winning the Cup next year. You're welcome, pj.
Note it is the 2017 draft, although unlike the NFL, future NHL draft picks dont tend to be discounted in value by a round.
I'd take Snow's past 18 months over Sather's, if that's worth anything...
Kind of unfair. It's easy to sit back and slowly get better. Sather had a team that was ready for its turn at the spotlight, and he got to one Cup finals and another ECF. If we win a cup he looks brilliant, doesnt he? Well if we had not gotten decimated with injuries we'd have beaten TB in all likelihood and been probably 50-50 odds in the finals (no worse than say 2:3). Zucc, McD, Staal... just killed.
But you make your moves. I dont mind that at all.
The Rangers got Yandle for essentially what the Flames traded for Hamilton. We all discussed the risk when they traded for MSL, one that I did think raised the ceiling on that team but was also poor asset allocation. And as I've posted before, first line talent becomes available quite often without the risk of that talent getting Alzheimers.
Girardi/Boyle over Stralman, Glass, etc. were all bad moves. You maximize your chance of winning a Cup by widening your window more than maximizing your probability in any given year or two, IMO.
Also, I think Snow has done a superb job the past 18 months, and my comment was initially more of a compliment to the job he's done than a shot at Sather (which I've taken plenty of). Taking smart risks in the draft with talented guys with question marks in Ho-Sang, dealing an asset they no longer like for multiple picks in Ho-Sang, and taking advantage of teams in poor cap positions when trading for Leddy and Boychuk.
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That's what I said - my dad said he doesn't think anyone wants him at his age/cap hit.
Maybe, but Chara only has 3 years left on his deal at $7mil/season. It's not a Marian Hossa contract or anything. Not sure what the cap situations are for a Pittsburgh or Philly, but i'd consider taking a look if i were them. Especially if Boston would take back some a somewhat bad contract (albeit less years and salary) in return - like a Kunitz + a first or 2nd round pick (which would assumed to be in low to mid 20s)
The Rangers got Yandle for essentially what the Flames traded for Hamilton. We all discussed the risk when they traded for MSL, one that I did think raised the ceiling on that team but was also poor asset allocation. And as I've posted before, first line talent becomes available quite often without the risk of that talent getting Alzheimers.
Girardi/Boyle over Stralman, Glass, etc. were all bad moves. You maximize your chance of winning a Cup by widening your window more than maximizing your probability in any given year or two, IMO.
Also, I think Snow has done a superb job the past 18 months, and my comment was initially more of a compliment to the job he's done than a shot at Sather (which I've taken plenty of). Taking smart risks in the draft with talented guys with question marks in Ho-Sang, dealing an asset they no longer like for multiple picks in Ho-Sang, and taking advantage of teams in poor cap positions when trading for Leddy and Boychuk.
Good post. I agree (and said so back then) that the risk/reward on the MSL deal and the Yandle deal did not warrant making the trades. Neither was going to increase the chance to win the Cup enough to warrant as you said the narrowing of the Cup window.
*Looks at Girardi*
By the way, injuries are way down the list of reasons for the team losing in the ECF IMO. Lundqvist gave up six goals twice... Forwards disappeared for two of them... Horrible coaching. The job AV did has not received an appropriate level of criticism IMO.
Note it is the 2017 draft, although unlike the NFL, future NHL draft picks dont tend to be discounted in value by a round.
Makes me hopeful we can get something for Glass. If we got a third rounder for him, it'd be one of the best trades in recent memory
Rangers have extended qualifying offers to eight of their nine RFAs. No QO for D Conor Allen. Dylan McIlrath does receive a QO.
Definitely a head-scratcher. Allen is now an UFA
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For Allen? What am I missing?
Definitely a head-scratcher. Allen is now an UFA
He's 25 and turns 26 in January. Might be the reason. If he hasn't made it yet, they cut the cord.
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In comment 12348289 Ross said:
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For Allen? What am I missing?
Definitely a head-scratcher. Allen is now an UFA
He's 25 and turns 26 in January. Might be the reason. If he hasn't made it yet, they cut the cord.
Probably is, though they tendered Mat Bodie, who is the same age.
And God I feel old. 25 going on 26 is old nowadays? Yikes. Haha
Who needs em when you can buy em though Tampa Bay's friend buying and selling policies blow
Hamilton is going to get $7 million dollars, whereas we got Yandle for $2.9 million. Every report says Boston mishandled that trade.
Stralman was a fuckup. I was the captain of the sign Strals/trade Girardi brigade.
We're just going to disagree on why we lost in the ECF. If McDonagh and Staal could move Hank doesnt let in so many. Zuccarello has been the steadying force on this team for 2 years -- he's our slump buster, and they guy who makes plays when the other forwards dont know what to do.
Ho-Sang has maturity problems so lets wait on that one. IMO the Isles are going to quickly regret giving Johhny B all that money. I'll wait til Garth wins a few playoff rounds before I congratulate him on anything.
When did McD actually break his foot?
Staal's injury didnt see all that serious - he actually played well at times in the postseason, just was inconsistent. If it was that bad an injury, wouldnt they have shelved him late in that regular season and maybe lived with him missing the Pittsburgh series before coming back? His lack of any kind of offensive game isnt a result of his ankle.
Agreed Zuccs was a killer. Take Johnson off their 2nd line (if only he'd broken his hand a round sooner) and that changes their composition quite a bit too.
But bottom line we were shutout twice in the final 3 games by a goalie that could barely move (he may not have full fledged torn his groin until game 2 SCF... but it was pretty badly damaged throughout the ECF too). You cant blame injuries for that.
I think the news may have replayed it. Not certain.
Zuccs clearly hurt, and not having McD for game 7 was a killer.
But this is a team that struggled badly to score goals the entire playoffs. (of course Yandle was pretty badly hurt for a while there which hurt). They weren't 'impressive' in any round. So clearly some shake-ups are needed this offseason - i just dont really like making Hagelin the de facto fall guy. And they overplayed their hand on Talbot.
Is what it is. Goes without saying 2015-2016 is a huge year for this group, or we could be Boston next offseason with Sather likely stepping down.
Love the heart and the fight of this team in winning 4 elimination games.... its why i want this group to win so bad. But is it talented enough? Has Sather fucked up too many times in these precious window years? I dont know.
A few things:
I think the need to replenish with young guys is more imperative for the Rangers than the Kings/Blackhawks. Both teams have far superior top-end talent, so they can get away with inferior depth. Looking at post-lockout Cup winners since the lockout, McDonagh (2013-2014 McDonagh, not this past year's version) would have been the #1 guy on only Pittsburgh and Carolina. And while any single first round pick is likely to bust, you still need them to compete (or sign college/European guys to ELC's, as both NYR and CHI have done).
I think the MSL trade was Cup or bust. Yandle could be a bit different if he re-signs.
My point with the Hamilton trade was that this type of elite talent becomes available far too often to justify making the move for an aging player. Seven of the 23 recent All-Star forwards played their first NHL game elsewhere (so this ignores a guy like Forsberg).
And McDonagh got hurt in game four or five while Lundqvist gave up six in games two and three (and the immobility of our defensemen had nothing to do with that awful poke check to Stamkos or that soft goal in OT). I hate criticizing Lundqvist, and he's certainly not top of the list, but he is supposed to be the best goaltender in the world (a title with diminished value with goaltender commoditization and anointed more for consistently being top five rather than always superior to everyone else, but I digress). He could have stole the series and didn't. Is he to blame? No. But the Blackhawks had their top players step up while McDonagh and Lundqvist didn't (or in McDonagh's case, got to a point where he couldn't... but let's not forget how much he sucked all playoff long).
I definitely think injuries played a role, but I didn't walk away thinking the team would have certainly won at full health. As MAB said, Bishop was immobile and he didn't give up soft goals (like the first one Lundqvist gave up in game 7). I thought it was a fairly even series - I thought every team in the conference finals was fairly even. But the Lightning had their elite guys step up. The Rangers didn't. AV kept playing MSL when he shouldn't have. These things bother me a bit more than the injury situation.
RE: Snow - I liked the Ho-Sang move because it's the type of risk/reward a team in their position should make. It's why I thought the logic behind the Zherdev for Tyutin deal was sound (and Zherdev was much better here than people give him credit for, but that deal still didn't work out).
MetsAreBack : 7:53 am : link : reply
its hard to sit here and point at injuries as the reason the season ended
Better way of saying what I'm trying to get at. Yeah, I wish we had full health and maybe things go differently... But the playoff Rangers weren't some dominant team that was derailed by injuries. I think they outplayed the Caps in the majority of the series, but they couldn't fucking score.
spot on
I think it's fair to suggest injuries very well may have cost NYR the Cup, but it's not strong enough to rest on our laurels and prevent us from making upgrades to the roster, imo.
Our team just couldnt score goals - and there wasnt a single reason for that. Sure, having injured defensemen that couldnt lead the fast break like maybe they could healthy played a part... so did a significant downgrade in the 4th line from a year ago... a really young, probably too young, 3rd line that was basically non-existent the entire postseason (Hayes had 4 points the entire playoffs)... Nash while better still only scored 4 fucking goals in 19 games which isnt close to good enough... Stepan had a nice 2-3 game stretch but was for the most part invisible... etc.
If this team is ever going to win a Cup guys have to start stepping up more than they have. Effort only gets you so far -- talent has to emerge.
I'm also hesistate to dismiss the value of first round picks, as late within the round as they may be. These picks still represent significant value and can always be packaged alongside additional assets to bring back a considerable return. I'd also argue that the Rangers, having a dearth of bluechip talent in the system and with a relatively older team (although skewed by MSL/Nash/Henrik), have more of a need than some other clubs to perpetually stock the farm with fresh talent.
Trading a premium pick on occasion for a known commodity is within the realm of reason but trading these picks on a consistent basis is troublesome and leaves a void within the system. Sure, from our perspective the Rangers seem to have a nice enough young nucleus to supplement our older players but when looking around the league it becomes apparent that other organizations have larger and more talented young cores taking shape. The worst-case scenario remains sitting here in two years with no Cup to show and a new cluster of teams having emerged and passed the Rangers as the class of the league.
Others such as giants2012 disagree and that's fine -- but when its apparent in 3 years that teams picking in the lottery the last 10 years like an Islanders, Florida, maybe a Montreal if they can add a Stamkos.... pass us... there is no shame in pulling a Bruins and getting those first round picks back and rebuilding this thing.
I'd rather do that than pull a Flyers or Wings and play make believe the last 5 years that either had a prayer of winning a Cup.
Yup, and I'd throw the 2015 Penguins into that mix too. Hell every one of those games was close despite Malkin playing at like 70% and 3 of their top 4 DMen out.
The Habs made it to the conference finals and a step before the next year, almost entirely on the back of Price.
if they were smart they would add a Stamkos since they struggle to score. Sure they have Pacioretty who is a legit first liner, but very little depth/stars (including Subban).
Which is why I'm surprised the Bruins totally blew it up with Rask who is a goalie I feel like can win a cup.
So, if I am the Rangers I don't blow it up while Hank is still playing at an elite level.
Goalies like Roy, Hasek, Quick, Brodeur, have won cups or gone far in the playoffs with fairly uninspiring lineups.
I do wonder if dealing Hank instead of Talbot was considered this offseason. If they'd done that our window immediately extends beyond 2-3 years, albeit with significant downside risk if Talbot proves to have been an aberation. Oh well... if there's one guy i want to see win a Cup its Hank.
On a completely different topic: This Kings situation with Mike Richards is completely shady and way too odd in its timing. IT frees up $4 million in cap space for them. Where was this hammer last summer for Slava Voynov? What concrete proof do they have at this time to abrogate a contract 3 days before free agency?
Agree!!
Agree and I too have been roasted for saying it. But it's a moot point. He has a rock solid "no move" clause that he will not void. Larry Brooks confirmed it to me in an email exchange last week.
Respectfully, horse shit. Not on trading Lundqvuist -- the devil is in the details there. If we're getting back a top 10 center it's a fine move.
But the notion that there is some maximum amount you can pay a goalie, as opposed to other positions, has no basis in reality. An elite goalie can easily save you ~35-45+ goals over league average production based on S% alone (and I think that underestimates the impact). How many players are creating that kind of goal differential over league average (i.e. not just starting at zero)?
And as for the money, the difference between a high end goalie like Hank ($8.5) and what most teams pay for their goalies isnt that much. Chicago won despite Crawford, who they pay $6 -- is that $2.5 million all that relevant in a $70 million cap world? Do we win if we have Crawford or Jon Quick ($5.8) and Brandon Prust? Halak ($4.5) plus another Klein or Boyle?
I just dont think you can parse things that way, especially when you may have $10+ million in injured players at any one time. Moreover, you have million dollar differences in player salaries based solely on term. E.g. you might pay a guy 8 million per for 5 years, but because of age spread it over 8 years at 45 million bringing the AAV below 6 million. The $2.5 million difference between Hank's salary and good veteran goalie pay
You just saw Tim Thomas do it 5 years ago.
1.98 gaa and .940 save percent, that's similar to some of Roy's SC winning playoff performances.
Thomas is somewhat of an enigma as a late bloomer, maybe Thomas is why there was the interest level in Talbot, who knows, but you guys know Hank better than me, I always thought he was only a ring away from that Roy, Quick, Hasek, Brodeur, category.
In two years we've seen the emergence of an undrafted goaltender out of Alabama step right in for our injured future HOFer with the team having not missed a beat. We saw our future HOFer direct a losing effort against a hobbled Ben Bishop because the team in front of him was inferior to that iced by the Lightning. Clearly Lundqvist remains the superior goaltender but, as Brett mentioned, I think the incremental difference between an elite goaltender over your average starter is minimal compared to that of skaters. There are 30 starting NHL gigs in the world and there seem to be plenty of goaltenders that emerge each year to handle these spots at a very high level for varying amounts of time.
But in any event, the scenario of trading Henrik was only ever realistic within a vacuum that doesn't consider the personal element of managing an organization where people are rightly or wrongfully not always viewed as assets. Especially when considering who the owner of the Rangers happens to be, there was never a chance that ol' JD would allow the only face of the team that he could actually recognize to be dealt for hockey reasons. Now, as a fan I completely empathize and would be dissappointed myself if Henrik was traded, but then again I'm not paid however many million to make the difficult decisions that go beyond emotion.
Was the same true for the others? Roy is a touch before my time being knowledgeable. I thought Hasek was clearly the best -- he was leading the league in S% by 10 points. Broduer is interesting. He was not top 5 in S% in 3 of his 4 Vezina seasons (he was 3rd in the other), and did not finish above 3rd in GAA any of those years either. Other guys could have won several of his Vezinas, and I always thought he was getting too many votes for leading the league in counting stats (starts, wins, shutouts; he was super human with respect to workload -- is the career game leader by like 25%!). He may not have been as good as 3 Cups, 4 Vezina's would indicate, but he's still a step above Hank.
It's cliched to say, but he legitimately steps up his game in the playoffs. Especially, (obviously?) the cup runs.
in his 3 SC's he average a 1.64 gaa, and .93 save percent.
In the cups he lost, he wasn't much worse than that.
Just makes you shake your head at this Talbot trade. Cmon.
They publicly said they wanted to get younger and mentioned 25 years old (or less) as their target, so maybe that arbitrary sand in the line is enough to value Jones over Talbot.
Strange though.
Clearly you would hope if San Jose had a 2016 1st rounder on the table... we'd take that over the 3 low picks we actually received. But I dont know.
The discussion is whether we hypothetically should have traded him a few years ago.
Though a few years ago he was an impending UFA, so I dont know why anyone would have paid a king's ransom for him ... especially if you think you cant win paying a goalie that much.
It was a bad trade. How do Lehner and Jones fetch a first rounder but Talbot doesn't?
Impending free agent 28-year-old with a small resume who can't be signed until January. Decent haul.
All the pre-draft excited chatter now makes it seem like a bad trade.
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Well, I don't think Lundqvist is Roy/Hasek/Brodeur. And the value of an elite goaltender is smaller than ever. I don't think you'll see a goalie carry a team to a Cup the way you used to - you still need an elite lineup.
You just saw Tim Thomas do it 5 years ago.
1.98 gaa and .940 save percent, that's similar to some of Roy's SC winning playoff performances.
Thomas is somewhat of an enigma as a late bloomer, maybe Thomas is why there was the interest level in Talbot, who knows, but you guys know Hank better than me, I always thought he was only a ring away from that Roy, Quick, Hasek, Brodeur, category.
I thought Boston had a really good team around him, but perhaps you're right. The Bruins may be the best comp in terms of a team with a lack of dominant scorers upfront.
Btw, I wouldn't put Quick in that category. I think he's a bit overrated, especially on a regular season basis.
It's not as simple as swapping Lundqvist for say, Stamkos. You'd have to pencil in an average G ($4-5M) and then go from there. Do you want Hagelin and Niemi next year or Lundqvist?
I watched every game of that playoff run, and Tim Thomas - and this isn't the booze talking - played better than any goalie I've seen in one playoffs. Ever.
Maybe it was his unorthodox style flopping around the crease throwing his pads in the air, or maybe it's his cocky American demeanor, but IMO he was the reason they won that cup and the 2nd reason isn't close.
He had some struggles in the TB series, but the Bruins had no business beating TB (or MTL for that matter) in those series.
And I think it was you who said it before, Lundqvist hasn't stolen series' like others you've mentioned. Even Quick, who I stated I'm not high on, had an incredible 2012 run (and whoever said him and Lundqvist were pretty much even for that Vezina was correct - I think Lundqvist win because he was 'due').
This year in particular, would any of the Rangers series' turned out differently if the goalies were swapped?
What other stars were on that team? Bergeron.
Find me a less-skilled team to win a cup.
LA? Close, but better than Boston.
Penguins, Blackhawks, Red Wings, Ducks (can't remember most of that team besides Selanne, Pronger and Getzlaf - already better though), you are probably going back to the Brodeur Devils.
Maybe the '06 Hurricanes.
But Thomas won that cup IMO.
SC winners are often quite flawed.
Boston's core was good enough to win a Cup or two. Even if the year they actually won was technically not their best team.
Personally - I'm kind of liking what they're doing here. Only thing i'll say is its actually easier to appease a fan base when you actually won one, and appeared in two SCF, to reload here... than if you're say the Rangers. There's just more of a calm satisfaction if you're a B's fan. But they basically turned an expensive, albeit good player in Lucic into two low teens pick, hell maybe a lottery pick with San Jose just not very good (is that pick protected?) And the Hamilton move while more of a head-scratcher... also a nice return.
They have four first round picks in 2 years to build around a still pretty young nucleus ... they just have to take 2 maybe 3 years off from the playoffs to reload here.
I still think NYI, NYR, CBJ and PITT are your playoff teams in this division, with Washington regressing. But we'll see... with Boston out of the way probably up north, the division could conceivably get all 5 teams in now.
I say hire him at MSG Network. And if we really need him, we can then sign him midseason. Like the time Biron retired from the team to the broadcasting team (saving us $$ by not having to cut him), but in reverse.
Link - ( New Window )
Boston's core was good enough to win a Cup or two. Even if the year they actually won was technically not their best team.
Personally - I'm kind of liking what they're doing here. Only thing i'll say is its actually easier to appease a fan base when you actually won one, and appeared in two SCF, to reload here... than if you're say the Rangers. There's just more of a calm satisfaction if you're a B's fan. But they basically turned an expensive, albeit good player in Lucic into two low teens pick, hell maybe a lottery pick with San Jose just not very good (is that pick protected?) And the Hamilton move while more of a head-scratcher... also a nice return.
They have four first round picks in 2 years to build around a still pretty young nucleus ... they just have to take 2 maybe 3 years off from the playoffs to reload here.
they have 5 first round picks in two years - they had 3 this year and 2 next year.
Not to mention they also had 3 second round picks this year. At least 9 picks in the top 2 rounds in two years.
the picks are getting panned locally FWIW.
Kreider---Stepan---Hayes
Miller----Lindberg----Etem
Glass---Moore----Fast
McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Boyle
Yandle-Klein
Summers/McIlrath
Lundqvist
Raanta
First things first: re-sign our RFAs. I'd also re-sign Matt Hunwick. I would see if there are any takers for Girardi (a team where he'd waive his NMC) and Glass (if there was a team that was willing to give up a third for Rinaldo...). I'd also see if a team is willing to trade a nice package for Klein, who is coming off a career year (and I really like Klein, FTR). I would sign Erik Condra to replace Glass and look at Johnny Oduya or Christian Ehrhoff to replace Girardi.
The defensive pairings would look like:
Staal/McDonagh
Whomever we get for Girardi, Klein or Glass. Oduya or Ehrhoff/Boyle
Yandle/McIlrath
Summers/Hunwick
We're likely stuck with him, unfortunately.
Let's hope he doesn't get a big offer sheet elsewhere.
I say hire him at MSG Network. And if we really need him, we can then sign him midseason. Like the time Biron retired from the team to the broadcasting team (saving us $$ by not having to cut him), but in reverse. Link - ( New Window )
If I'm the Rangers, I'd tell him to stick around and wait for an injury.
Pens did make a trade offer for Saad and people in the organization are stunned that Columbus got him for so little.
Josh Yohe @JoshYohe_PGH 15h15 hours ago
People in Pens organization are sick right now. They know they screwed up (different regime) 4 years ago regarding Saad. Tried to get him.
Josh Yohe @JoshYohe_PGH 15h15 hours ago
Asked a member of Pens' front office about how good Columbus could be next season. The answer: "Scary."
JB @JB_HockeyTalk 13h13 hours ago
Last RT: Blackhawks & Bruins heard PIT/EDM were going to offer sheet Hamilton & Saad. Refused to trade them there. It's believable.
See link. They may become more common in the future if there are some dam breaking moments. But for the time being they are shockingly rare for a hard cap sport.
http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2012/07/why-are-nhl-offer-sheets-so-rare.html - ( New Window )
Things may change. But as of now GMs dont really look at other teams' RFAs. It's unfair to the players, but if every player was deemed fair game after his ELC expired (2-3 years generally), there would be chaos. GMs wouldnt be able to make plans.
You could probably find 2-3 JT Millers on every team -- guys that they whole league would love to have at 2-3 million. So to prevent that you'd have guys getting very long term contracts at age 21-23, which I think would cause another lockout.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Brooks - He keeps saying Stepan had a very good playoff, but I thought it was fairly pedestrian, especially in the ECF.
I recall in games five and seven that he was out of position way too often defensively (which impairs the ability to get the puck back, obviously).
But his and McDonagh's poor/average showing allowed Washington to take the Rangers to seven, and cost us in the ECF.
The more I look at the roster/cap projections for the next few years, the worse I feel.
I really fucking hate the NTCs given to Girardi and Staal.
And Girardi's NMC is two seasons away from expiring.
Fuck.
This is one of the main reasons why I think it's critical to thrust Skjei into the lineup this season.
If Yandle walks, it doesn't free up much money and our defense has gotten significantly worse. It would be huge to have Skjei's teeth already cut a little bit and possibly ready to play 2nd pairing minutes.
Having said that, I'm a really big fan of Yandle really hope he's here for the long haul.
Girardi's NMC doubly sucks if it forces us to have to move Staal to clear space because he's the one we should be keeping long-term.
Staal and Stralman should have been the guys who were retained for the long haul, G should have been dealt.. but it's too freaking late now and it'll never not suck. Bah.
Fucking short people - ( New Window )
Agreed, arc. We all knew it at the time, too. That Girardi deal was a killer. Can't fall in love with players in a cap league.
either way I'm glad MSL is gone.
Amazing, in an era where TV money is absolutely booming, where the NBA cap is going from 60 to 100 in 2 years, that the NHL will effectively have 3 years of flat cap. Phoenix continues to be a shit show. And Bettman keeps his job. Will probably get a fat expansion bonus too.
Offense to all the short people.
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Been asking for Staal to be moved for years. Knew he was gong to get a nice contract yet too much of his game is average at best.
I wonder if a short-term deal would be the best option for the team. They can revisit in two years whether they need to blow this up or sign him for a bigger deal when they have more flexibility.
Girardi and Staal are just killer contracts. Adding the NMC is brutal. Apparently the Rangers and five other teams called about Shattenkirk ($4.25M, and a superior defenseman to either of the two), but I don't see how they fit him.
I would love a Nash+Girardi for Shattenkirk+Schwartz+pieces deal. But the Blues have cap issues themselves with Tarasenko due for a contract. All the logical buyers for Nash have issues with the cap and can't afford him.
The Islanders actually make the most sense of any team as a trade partner for Nash when accounting for the cap. It would just never happen, of course.
I continue to think Glass and a defenseman get moved at some point.
I just don't understand the need to add NMC to overmarket contracts like G/Staal. I'm confused as to how those negotiations went.
I continue to think Glass and a defenseman get moved at some point.
Boo hoo, we lost a backup goalie and a 3rd liner. Meanwhile we have so many young forwards who will probably only get better this year. Year 2 of Fast will give us 80+% of what Hags gave us.
2012: I think they can get through the next year with Nash, but would have to look to move him then unless they plan on letting Kreider walk. I think Kreider is a RFA next year, so maybe give him another bridge and then await added flexibility when Girardi's NMC turns into a limited NTC two years from now.
The value for first-line talent is so low on the trade market right now that I think they're better holding off.
The problem is Sather would move a Yandle now, much like he moved all the premium draft picks, Duclair etc, which leads you to wonder how Gorton will view the whole picture.
Trading Yandle makes no sense unless you can get someone like Shattenkirk in return - and simultaneously believe Skjei/McIlrath are ready to contribute.
His numbers did drop the 2nd half of last season and in the playoffs. To win the Cup, this will be the third year in a row with a very long playoff and very short offseason. I don't trust Nash suddenly being playoff productive going on three straight long years. Move him IMO.
But a couple prospects and picks alone doesn't do it for me. The Rangers are in win-now mode, and I think Nash can be a contributor.
He vastly improved this post-season. He needs to take another step, of course.
I don't see him carrying a team to the Cup with a fifteen goal post-season. But I'd rather take another chance with him than trade him for picks.
[quote] Nash--Brassard---Zuccarello
Kreider---Stepan---Hayes
Miller----Lindberg----Etem
Glass---Moore----Fast
McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Boyle
Yandle-Klein
Summers/McIlrath
Lundqvist
Raanta
--------------
I would hope that Stalberg replaces Glass and I believe Diaz will be ahead of Summers/McIlrath
He vastly improved this post-season. He needs to take another step, of course.
I don't see him carrying a team to the Cup with a fifteen goal post-season. But I'd rather take another chance with him than trade him for picks.
Not looking for picks, I'm looking for young, less expensive talent.
I feel like I've seen this movie before but maybe you're correct.
IMO, it looks like 95 when "let's give it one more shot" or like Vancouver trying again.
I look at a team like Pitt who just added a weapon and think if those three are healthy they beat the Rangers. Minus Zucs, the Rangers at full throttle were neck and neck with the Pens, neck and neck with the Caps, and struggled mightily against the Lightning in both the regular season and playoffs.
Besides the first min against Pitt, that Rangers two or three line breakout pass was ECLIPSED by everybody in the playoffs and whole Rangers offense struggled. This team was shut down.
Seen this movie before and it has more to do with hope than
hockey sense now IMO. Wouldn't shock me to look like the Kings of last year. Just can't put it together with the same pieces again.
but what would they add? The team played solid defense. Offensively, both Staal and Girardi had only 20 points a piece in the regular season. Girardi had four or five points in the playoff while Staal had ONLY ONE point.
If healthy, what more would we get? The tam did play defensively well and neither provide offense regardless.
If you can get a young guy who can net 25-30 goals (Schwartz/JVR), and some solid pieces, I'm not opposed at all.
The story of the 2015-2016 Rangers, IMO, is going to be how McDonagh bounces back from a poor season.
I think Nash has become underrated in a sense by Ranger fans. He's just a total after thought when we discuss elite talent.
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From 98 on, they went 6 years without reaching .500.
Play McIlrath/Diaz in the RD3 slot. If they prove really unworthy, demote one and promote Skjei (and if someone claims McIlrath, it will necessarily be no big loss given the demotion). After the season Boyle and Yandle are UFAs, meaning we'd have 1-2 more open spots. Entirely plausible that come 2016-17, the defense is McDonagh, Girardi, Staal, Skjei, McIlrath, UFA/Bodie/Hughes/euro. Rangers have been staggeringly successful finding cheap #6 dmen -- Stralman (became 2nd pair), Eminger, Hunwick, Diaz... In part because it's not that hard to play sheltered minutes against bottom 6 guys.
We're as close to there as we can get IMO. Yes, Vancouver is stuck. Boston was close to stuck and got out (they went a bit far but they got out), Chicago won a cup, got out and rebuilt quickly. IMO, the Rangers are like the 49ers. Got close, so let's try it again.
I think the return on a Nash and Staal would keep this team in contention and solidify the future. Again, I could be wrong but think the Rangers gave it their best shot and they still didn't dominate the Pens, Caps and certainly not Tampa which is scary IMO. The floundering Kings shut down the Rangers on their last trip to NY and everybody saw how to shut them down.
We will see. Nash would certainly benefit the Rangers on 3-on-3 OT next year b/c he holds onto the puck forever. Come playoff time, it's not close to enough.
I think all of the teams in the conference finals were good enough to win the Cup this year.
And while the scores were all close, I felt the Rangers outplayed the Pens/Caps in the respective series. Holtby was ridiculous. The Rangers controlled play for the majority of those series', IMO.
Is your plan not reading or do you believe moving Nash means rebuilding?
Play McIlrath/Diaz in the RD3 slot. If they prove really unworthy, demote one and promote Skjei (and if someone claims McIlrath, it will necessarily be no big loss given the demotion). After the season Boyle and Yandle are UFAs, meaning we'd have 1-2 more open spots. Entirely plausible that come 2016-17, the defense is McDonagh, Girardi, Staal, Skjei, McIlrath, UFA/Bodie/Hughes/euro. Rangers have been staggeringly successful finding cheap #6 dmen -- Stralman (became 2nd pair), Eminger, Hunwick, Diaz... In part because it's not that hard to play sheltered minutes against bottom 6 guys.
Hunwick is a Maple Leaf
There is no need to trade Nash, and I dont think he'll return that much with his inconsistent play and limited NTC. Take a great deal if one comes around, but otherwise you can resign the guys who need to be resigned by moving Klein's 2.9 hit. Another ~9 million clears next year with Boyle, Moore, and Yandle expiring, and maybe at some point the cap actually goes up to account for increased TV rights deals.
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If both return to a 100%, I expect some uptick in their play. They may be over-payed, but in full form they are still good Dmen.
but what would they add? The team played solid defense. Offensively, both Staal and Girardi had only 20 points a piece in the regular season. Girardi had four or five points in the playoff while Staal had ONLY ONE point.
If healthy, what more would we get? The tam did play defensively well and neither provide offense regardless.
I agree that our D was perhaps the key ingredient in our regular season success. However I feel the reason we didn't sniff the Cup is a regression on the part of the D -- hopefully due to injuries. Kinda makes my original point.
All you have to do is read my 9:35 post and not include your assumption the return is for no help.
it's a gamble given Datsyuk's age and recent surgery, but Datsyuk is what I think everyone wants Nash to be.
Datsyuk is the most creative player with the puck I've seen since Gretzky, he scores on the PP, he shows up in the playoffs.
his defensive game sets the tone for his team (and the league), he can lead you to a cup. My father used to tell me when I was little to watch these guys without the puck when we went to a hockey game. And I never did, I was distracted by the organists, or the drunk dudes in front of us, or whatever, but now it's never more obvious than from watching Datsyuk how effective and important moving without the puck is in hockey.
and you know DET hasn't thrown in the towel based on the $$$ they shelled out for Green.
They probably won't do it, but given the surgery and age who know. Datsyuk isn't expected back until the start of the season so if the $$ works, maybe even get DET to eat some of the money.
Power Rankings - Rangers 11th. - ( New Window )
BTW, there was a Derek Sanderson special on NBCSN about a month ago that I just watched last night. You might enjoy it.
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The Caps were a blown call away from defeating the Rangers in the second round.
I saw that too Brett. Don't remember what they're talking about. I vaguely recall that the Caps might've had an extra PP in the 3rd period of Game 5 had the refs made a borderline call, but I don't remember any more than that.
BTW, there was a Derek Sanderson special on NBCSN about a month ago that I just watched last night. You might enjoy it.
On a long(er) term deal I don't like old people either, but the Rangers have a couple year window. Lundqvist is 34 next year before the playoffs. two years of Datsyuk I think helps you more than two of Nash, but onl if Datsyuk is healthy and therein lies the gamble and the only reason Detroit even considers it.
ESPN had us 12th all last pre-season. Bring it.
I hope we dont burn extra calories in the regular season. A 2 or 3 seed would do just fine.
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They got handed game 1 on a fucking platter by the refs.
Deej: I was surprised to see us drop that low. I'm cautious going into next year.
He won't be dumped to Arizona, obviously, but if a team like Anaheim were to call again I could see some mutual interest.
IMO
1. The Rangers need better shooters. The Rangers hit the boards not stop with these shots whereas a team like Tampa has some nice snipers.
2. Too many defenders provide no offense. If this was 1994, McDonough, Yandle and Boyle would battle Kevin Lowe for PP time. None are remotely close to Zubov let a lone Leetch while there is no Beukeboom presence.
Lundy does his job and maybe Kreider will become that player but the Rangers don't have that Patrick Kane or Messier who makes the play or scores the goal when you absolutely need it. Nash is Bernie Nichols IMO.
IKN, just searching for a solution b/c I think this team is missing something significant for the playoffs and less for the regular season. Too many series go Seven for comfort.
Brett: Girardi's contract is frontloaded with salary and signing bonus. Over the last 3 years he makes 5m, 4m, and 4m. Unless his play really falls off a cliff, I think we'll be able to move him.
And as arc said, I think the difference between teams is so small now (and has gotten even smaller with Columbus/Washington clearly improving themselves). I don't think there's any elite teams right now, but a lot of really good ones.
My Anaheim comment meant right now in terms of him waiving his NMC.
And I believe he has a modified NTC his last three years.
Who said that? You appear to be struggling more than usual today
He struggles in-zone (defensive zone) with his decision making and especially with the bigger forwards.
he has very little physical presence for a guy his size.
and he's slightly overrated on the power play, I like him om the point, just not as the quarterback - he's not the Doughty - puck moving defenseman many were led to believe he was.
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who was #3 in PP scoring among defensemen in the whole NHL (#10 overall) playing mostly on a terrible AZ team and then coming to NY where the PP never got settled. That guy cant hang? Shesh.
Who said that? You appear to be struggling more than usual today
You're a real fucking dolt. You said:
Yandle was an elite PP producer last year, #3 among dmen, whereas Lowe at a 19 point dman in 1994. Equating the two -- which you did -- and suggesting that Yandle provides no offense just shows that you're ignorant. Yandle has 50+ points in each of the last two seasons playing mostly on a talent-deprived team. Yandle is a very good offensive defenseman.
I wouldn't dump him or anything, but he's hardly untouchable in a trade.
"If this was 1994, McDonough, Yandle and Boyle would battle Kevin Lowe for PP time. None are remotely close to Zubov let a lone Leetch while there is no Beukeboom presence."
Outside of Ignoring the salary cap and what's posted today you're on a roll. (backwards again).
Awesome job Dolt
I do agree that Girardi and Staal and their respective cap hits are much bigger issues than Yandle.
Awesome job Dolt
You said Yandle would have to battle with Lowe for PP time. Own up to it.
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based on your response, that would mean Yandle would have replaced either Zubov or Leetch.
Awesome job Dolt
You said Yandle would have to battle with Lowe for PP time. Own up to it.
Yes moron, he would. He wouldn't replace Leetch or Zubov so he would be competing with Lowe like the other defensemen. Learn to read
I agree with that, guys like Staal or Girardi (while good players) are probably easier to replace because the offensive defenseman is harder to find. As evidenced by the constant infatuation with Tomas Kaberle - who isn't close to what I'd call a puck moving defenseman.
but my point was Yandle isn't Paul Coffey or Phil Housley (not that anyone said he was).
If we are able to move G at some point next year on top of Boyle clearing we'd have the room to hang onto him if we wanted to.
Staal and Mac are the 2 guys I would be locked into keeping long-term (I am banking on Mac bouncing back)
I could go either way on Klein.
1. I think the league will value these guys higher as the analytics community further entrenches itself in management teams. Both are solid skaters and good puck handlers, especially relative to G/Staal (and I like Staal a great deal).
2. I think Ranger fans underrate these guys because of the price paid to get them - Yandle for Duclair and picks, Boyle for (seemingly) Stralman. I didn't like either 'swap' (even though there was a way to get Boyle and retain Stralman by trading Girardi), but still like both players.
Maybe they rebound and it's hockey as usual but we could see a King's hangover without a Cup after too pretty long playoff runs.
Three straight years of going deep is asking a lot IMO.
He was a legitimate #1 defenseman in 2013-2014 (I never bought the Norris hype from Pierre). If he's not that, this team is in trouble defensively.
Look, lets end the war of words. I still dont understand what point you're making. Among dmen born since Leetch was born in 1968, the top 4 in PPG are in order: (1) Leetch, (2) Karlsson, (3) Lidstrom, and (4) Zubov. So yeah, he isnt one of the 4 best offensive defensemen born in the last 47 years. So what? He is by every measure a very productive offensive defenseman. What is your fucking point on Yandle?
Diaz was just signed too.
Add in:
1 McD
2 Girardi
3 Staal
4 Klein
5 Boyle
6 Yandle
Did you mean Pittsburgh instead of Washington? I dont get the Caps hype unless they have minor leaguers coming up through their system that i dont know about. Their offseason has been a wash to date.
And lets not forget the quality and quantity Holtby played up to last year either. Is that sustainable? He's a good young goalie but is he the next Hank? Dunno about that.
Anyway, CBJ and Pitt did get marginally better... and Isles will have more experience... really its about that Rangers lockerroom and whether this group has one more deep run left in it.
Its not really Kessel for Neal though - i thought Hornqvist replaced Neal (?) And Kessel is better than Neal, in any event. We'll have to see how motivated PK is now playing alongside two generational talents and in a market a little less intense than Toronto.
Anyway.. that was a team up until getting ravaged by injury late in the year was neck-and-neck with us for the division as of early March. It's a team to be respected, that's all i'm saying.
Are they the odds on favorite to win the East this year? No. Neither is Washington or CBJ either.
Agreed. I think the RFA situation league-wide may push your timeline back, but I doubt the top six remains the same.
Greg: I think Kessel is a great deal better than Neal. Kessel has become underrated because he's fat, lazy, and was with a brutal franchise.
Its not really Kessel for Neal though - i thought Hornqvist replaced Neal (?) And Kessel is better than Neal, in any event. We'll have to see how motivated PK is now playing alongside two generational talents and in a market a little less intense than Toronto.
Anyway.. that was a team up until getting ravaged by injury late in the year was neck-and-neck with us for the division as of early March. It's a team to be respected, that's all i'm saying.
Are they the odds on favorite to win the East this year? No. Neither is Washington or CBJ either.
Did Dupuis get treated for the blood clots?
Talented, yes, will he score points, yes, is he a guy I'd want on the ice up or down a goal late in the third?
not a chance.
Hope he proves me wrong, I like all the American players to succeed he reminds me of the guy who was already in the neutral zone in youth hockey the second the goalie makes the save.
I think people underrate the Caps.
That series with them and the Islanders was like an old AHL series in terms of toughness. There were more hits in one game than in the whole Habs Lightning series. that was some awesome hockey to watch.
when you can play the physical game like they can and then the skill game like they can with solid D and a good goalie you have the elements in place to win.
The Rangers do too, they just lack an Ovie/Backstrom duo Nash could be part of it and I think Kreider could become that guy but he has to do it.
Should be a great year, I hope the Bruins don't win the lottery, Auston Matthews is Conor McDavid-like. And American, I don't want to have to hate him.
If Backstrom wasn't hurt, that series probably turns out differently for the Rangers.
I fear some of the other Metro teams a little more at this point.
Who knows... We'll see. There are 5 capable teams in the Metro and not a ton separates any of them at this time.
If Backstrom wasn't hurt, that series probably turns out differently for the Rangers.
Well maybe ... if they didnt have one single, solitary injury that series whereas we had a ton... yeah, maybe they steal it in 7.
Girardi/McDonagh didn't come until Tampa.
and MSL was probably hurt this postseason (or just dead... but as deej has pointed out, pre- his knee injury he wasnt *that* bad)
In any event its utterly ridiculous to say if a team was completely 100% healthy it would have beat a team with a lot of injuries. That's hockey - you're never fully healthy come playoff time.
And what about their 3rd line impresses you anyway? They have like 4 good offensive players.
Not a bad team by any means, but firmly in wild card territory at the moment IMO. I actually fear them more in 2016-2017 when i believe they have more cap space to play with.
So two of the top 4 D-Men badly hurt, missing a top 6 player for an entire series, and MSL probably hurt too.
...but let's pretend if Backstrom, their only injury, wasnt playing with a bad hip ... hey things might have turned out differently.
Just kind of a bizarre comment. If you want to compare both teams healthy - fine.... in my opinion, Rangers were much much better.
Not that it ultimately matters - neither team won a Cup.
Bizarre comment to say the health of an elite center wouldn't potentially shift a series full of one goal games.
I simply said the Rangers had injuries to 4 key players... the Caps had one. So to say if the Caps didnt have that one...
We didnt even count trying to win a game 7 without Dan Boyle for half the game either.
Agree to disagree. We'll see what happens next year and hell, offseason hasnt really ended just yet either. I just dont think - to date- getting Oshie and Williams, while losing Ward, Green and Brouwer (and other assets that could have helped them in time) makes them all much better.
He was dog shit in the playoffs. But I think it had to be the knee. Only thing giving me pause is the fact that we had ZERO interest in resigning him, but that may be because he wasnt willing to talk a cheap deal.
I think the guy has too much pride to take a Brad Richards type deal on a contender.
They're a bummer to read =(
You're giving them far too much respect, man. The numbers are what they are -- the Rangers were a better team all season long and we're the better team in that series, despite more and more impactful injuries than what the Caps were dealing with.
Does it mean the Caps couldnt win the Metro or the East next year? No. I wouldnt personally put a $10 on it, but by all means... go for it.
Changing topics - to pjcas above... i wouldnt worry too much about Boston winning the lottery this year. I have a hard time believing they'll finish bottom 5 - there's still some talent on that roster.
If Arizona or Colorado dont finish with the worst records in the league this year, it'd be a pretty major upset no? And Toronto, Carolina and New Jersey are all pretty bad too.
my POV on injuries is they might have a slight impact but they normally don't sway a series. I know you'll hear afterwards player x had a broken blah blah, but if he's playing it's not that bad.
Obviously I'm not comparing myself to NHLers who have far better medical staff than I do (which is none) I broke my foot in November, played for three weeks on it before I realized it was broken. Was I limited? No, not really, just in pain. In fact having the skate on was when I felt the least pain (except when I took more shots off the skate), but the compression of the skate helped.
if a player is hurt bad enough, no matter how tough they are the coaches know it and won't throw them out there.
Just my 2c. Every single team has injuries, you know your team better because you follow their beat writers, but I suspect the same list of surgeries and muscle pulls/separations for just about every team.
They're a bummer to read =(
I think even the most dire of us think we still have a 2-3 year window. So i dont think you can conclude that.
As far as "worse" next year - well there's nowhere to go in the regular season than down. We just set a franchise point record and won a Presidents Trophy. Doesnt mean we cant improve upon the postseason though. Seed doesnt matter that much - just get there so that you dont have to be on the road every round. A 2 seed in the division or even a 3 that's more like 5th in the conference is perfectly fine. Chances are you'll get home ice once.
You're giving them far too much respect, man. The numbers are what they are -- the Rangers were a better team all season long and we're the better team in that series, despite more and more impactful injuries than what the Caps were dealing with.
Does it mean the Caps couldnt win the Metro or the East next year? No. I wouldnt personally put a $10 on it, but by all means... go for it.
Changing topics - to pjcas above... i wouldnt worry too much about Boston winning the lottery this year. I have a hard time believing they'll finish bottom 5 - there's still some talent on that roster.
If Arizona or Colorado dont finish with the worst records in the league this year, it'd be a pretty major upset no? And Toronto, Carolina and New Jersey are all pretty bad too.
Again you're probably right, but I read Rask is on the block and if the Bruins start slow I can see them totally blowing it up more than they have.
they have two first round picks again next year and two seconds. that's 9 picks in the first two rounds in two years.
won't provide immediate help, but sure eases the rebuilding when you have assets.
You're giving them far too much respect, man. The numbers are what they are -- the Rangers were a better team all season long and we're the better team in that series, despite more and more impactful injuries than what the Caps were dealing with.
Does it mean the Caps couldnt win the Metro or the East next year? No. I wouldnt personally put a $10 on it, but by all means... go for it.
Changing topics - to pjcas above... i wouldnt worry too much about Boston winning the lottery this year. I have a hard time believing they'll finish bottom 5 - there's still some talent on that roster.
If Arizona or Colorado dont finish with the worst records in the league this year, it'd be a pretty major upset no? And Toronto, Carolina and New Jersey are all pretty bad too.
Comparing Fehr to Sheppard is just stupid. Fehr was their fifth leading goal scorer and was third on a G/GP basis. Had a PPG average than Hagelin. You're really reaching,
The Rangers were the better team in that series as well - even when it looked like they were losing that series in five.
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MAB loves making up facts.
my POV on injuries is they might have a slight impact but they normally don't sway a series. I know you'll hear afterwards player x had a broken blah blah, but if he's playing it's not that bad.
Obviously I'm not comparing myself to NHLers who have far better medical staff than I do (which is none) I broke my foot in November, played for three weeks on it before I realized it was broken. Was I limited? No, not really, just in pain. In fact having the skate on was when I felt the least pain (except when I took more shots off the skate), but the compression of the skate helped.
if a player is hurt bad enough, no matter how tough they are the coaches know it and won't throw them out there.
Just my 2c. Every single team has injuries, you know your team better because you follow their beat writers, but I suspect the same list of surgeries and muscle pulls/separations for just about every team.
I agree in principle (which really just means I kind of disagree, lol), but maybe the Caps/Isles series turns out differently if the Islanders weren't digging into their second pairing from Bridgeport, or the Lightning win the Cup if it's Crawford with the torn groin and Kane with the broken wrist instead of Bishop and Johnson. When the margins are that thin, the difference in health between top players can make a huge difference.
They're a bummer to read =(
Thanks, SY! I still think we have another good shot this year, but that it starts to close from there - but a lot depends on the development of some of the prospects. If Skjei is a poor man's McDonagh or Buchnevich is bonafide top six winger, that window remains wide open.
injuries where the guys aren't playing. Like the Islanders D, like Carey Price, Crosby in the Bruins series, etc. absolutely 100% make a difference.
I meant injuries where the guys are playing don't make enough of a difference to sway a series. If they are obviously hurting a team they will be yanked by the coach.
But that's a coaching decision more than anything else (which is why I blame AV more for the Rangers game 7 loss to Tampa more than McDonagh's foot or MSL's death - as I've said multiple times, injuries are way down the list for me as a Ranger fan as to why this season ended prematurely). And sometimes you really just don't have anything else (Malkin for the Pens, Backstrom for the Capitals).
Stepan stats:
Assists-per-game at ages 23-24:
Derek Stepan: .53
Jonathan Toews: .50
Eric Staal: .48
Patrice Bergeron: .47
I really hope the team rids themselves of Glass and has a fourth line they can trust. Dominic Moore is a really good fourth line center (who's a UFA at the end of the year) - he's someone who they should trust enough to be out their in the defensive zone, but they can't because of Glass.
Granted, I'd prefer physical play with skill which Glass doesn't have yet the physical play of Washington clearly beat up many Rangers wheels going forward and disassembled the Isles.
A few hitters go a long way. It's not figure skating.
both rosters were finishing checks.
I posted this before but Matt Martin became my favorite non-Hab, non American player very quickly in that series.
that dude is like a heat seeking missile. If he had better hands he'd be a better Lucic, but he doesn't. He's the epitome of a checking forward. you could see the Cap D with their heads on a swivel as they went into the corner.
So, in part I'm disagreeing with Brett, you need that role on the team, but yeah ideally some portion of your top 6 wingers posses that skill set and you don't need a one-dimensional player on the roster when that's all he can do.
I'd love Martin on my team. Physicality sets the tone.
Replacing Glass with a skilled hockey player makes the Rangers a better team.
2012, I never recall Glass disrupting anyone's offense. He was given offensive zone starts to shield his shitty play and the puck would inevitably wind up in our zone because he is such a shitty player. He completely drags down any line he's on. Moore's possession numbers drop from 49.6% apart from Glass to 44.7% with him. Glass apart from Moore was 39.8% (all CF%). He is just a fucking brutal player.
My wording was harsh, because I agree with everything you wrote (except fuck the Islanders, obviously).
Glass just has no place.
My wording was harsh, because I agree with everything you wrote (except fuck the Islanders, obviously).
Glass just has no place.
Agree, Glass has nowhere near the spark of Martin, and he wouldn't see the ice on my team.
I'd rather have Dale Wiese taking a regular shift (and I know you are aware of his limitations), and Wiese is a punching bag, with a goofy face, but he's not afraid to mix it up and has developed a knack for the big goal.
Of course, it's excellent if you can have players who can do both.
Of course, it's excellent if you can have players who can do both.
the point isn't just the hit, the physical hit takes a toll throughout a game throughout a series, throughout a season. plus when dished out as violently as Martin dishes them out (or Lucic or guys like that) it absolutely 100% has an impact on the D and causes them to rush (even forwards - I love violent forecheck hits).
like I said there is little place for a one dimensional player who can only hit, but if you have a guy who hits and does other things close to adequately he's got a spot on my team.
(1) It's idiotic to sacrifice skill for physicality (sitting Miller over Glass, etc.). Guys like Miller, Tom Wilson, and a couple of the Islander bottom six guys are what teams should be seeking - physical forecheckers who can capitalize on the forecheck and help drive possession.
(2) 2012, I never recall Glass disrupting anyone's offense. He was given offensive zone starts to shield his shitty play and the puck would inevitably wind up in our zone because he is such a shitty player. He completely drags down any line he's on. Moore's possession numbers drop from 49.6% apart from Glass to 44.7% with him. Glass apart from Moore was 39.8% (all CF%). He is just a fucking brutal player.
1. Agreed. You don't need Stu Grimmson. You do need some physical presence though. Washington was huge and couldn't really score but their size closed down the lanes in which some Rangers smurfs found themselves skating around the ice but nowhere near the net.
Speed does kill and you have to do something to slow it down. Injured or not, the Rangers tried countering the Lightning speed by slowing their game down to a crawl. The fast Rangers were slow against the Lightning. A few players who could take the body like Glass causes turnovers and maybe the Rangers transition game wouldn't have been so obsolete.
2. Glass helped against the Caps. He was one of few who hit back and kept the Caps a little honest. A close look at this Rangers team it looked like AV's Canucks vs the Bruins. The Rangers won the series but it was pretty evident there wasn't much left for Tampa.
On several occasions you mentioned Lucic and McIlrath. I mentioned them too. Neither are really fast skaters but we know what they bring and we know what the Rangers need. Granted, Lucic can score and we're hoping Dylan can skate well enough for opponents to skate with their heads up.
Back to Tampa, the triplets glided into the Rangers end with potential obstruction their only concern (which is fearless). That's a problem.
Of course, it's excellent if you can have players who can do both.
Hitting causes turnovers though. The Bruins were outclassed by the Canucks for the first two games of their Stanley Cup final. When the Bruins took the game to the boards and hit, the Canucks had no answers. The hitting neutralized the speed that was killing them.
My big concern about McIlrath is his discipline. He was in the box for nine minutes in a game when the Rangers were missing three or four dman. You can rotate forwards and not miss too much if a guy is in the box for fighting - harder to do with only 5 defenseman. But I'm really intrigued about his potential presence and hope other fans ignore the price we paid to get him and focus on his play.
He seems like a more skillful Brian Boyle. His frame helps him on reach and shielding the puck, but he's not a proper power forward.
On a side not Brett may appreciate (or not) I was ejected from my game last night half way through the first period.
guy two handed me in the ankle right near where I broke my foot (pissed off he missed a goal) and then I went to go after him slashed my stick out of my hand. I lost it. I went after him and Bertuzzi'd him and wouldn't stop pummeling him until the refs and both teams pulled me off.
I got a 5-game suspension, but more importantly scared the hell out of myself. I need anger management counseling. I can't explain how mad I was.
No reason to two-hand guys in a men's league games. I don't mind the hooking/stick-grabbing, but can't stand the slew-foots or slashes.
Elliotte Friedman says that Kleins remaining contract, three-years at $2.9 million per season, would not be easy to replace for the Rangers. (CBC)
Assuming it's true, there are a few possibilities: Gorton doesn't like Yandle and hated the trade, Gorton wants to recoup significant assets by trading Yandle - likely take a small hit this year or to provide optionality further out, the Rangers are full of shit and trying to drive up the market value for Klein, or they're trying to dump another defenseman (Girardi).
I hate to see Yandle go. I think he can make a huge difference.
Friedman - ( New Window )
The longer this waits the more concerned i get that McIlraith will be let go for peanuts. But why sign Diaz if you planned to keep all 6 defenders?
I'd say try to trade D Boyle (if he'd waive his NMC), but that wouldnt solve the Yandle problem for next offseason.
Annoys me that ROR is going to impact Stepan - its one bad, overpay contract... there have been multiples of this more reasonable deals recently signed.. i know he's not a C, but including Saad at $6mm/yr
He's worth $6mm/year IMO. 6.5mm would be painful, a tough call.... if he demands 7mm hopefully they explore trade options for that 'bigger, tougher' C that can crash the net, etc.
It would pain me to have to go all the way up to 7 per on Stepan but I think you still have to do it if that's what it comes to. I think he's underrated because he's not a flashy skater or an elite skill guy. We would be a much worse team without him.
I think Stepan is worth $7M. He's a legitimate #1 center. I unfortunately just don't think the Rangers can afford to pay him that.
Girardi's contract really sucks. I don't see how the Rangers re-sign Yandle.
He's also 5 years older than Stepan. Makes little sense.
I think Stepan for Backes, which Brooks suggested, would be dumb, though.
I'm no hockey guru but many of their key decisions seem to miss the mark.
Impossible? Just about. Focus on the next 3 year window.
from 2015 - 2018/9 Bergeron is on another level than Stepan.
I like Stepan (American player), but he's not the two way player Bergeron is yet.
Not many are. Datsyuk. Maybe Kopitar.
the past 6 seasons Bergeron has been top 5 in Selke, winning it 3 times.
he's so valuable even if you lessen his offensive impact.
I think he'd be better on the Rangers too.
from 2015 - 2018/9 Bergeron is on another level than Stepan.
I like Stepan (American player), but he's not the two way player Bergeron is yet.
Not many are. Datsyuk. Maybe Kopitar.
the past 6 seasons Bergeron has been top 5 in Selke, winning it 3 times.
he's so valuable even if you lessen his offensive impact.
I think he'd be better on the Rangers too.
I think you're severely underrating Derek Stepan defensively.
LOL, don't read my reply
but Sather made that decision for us when he gave away 1st round picks and other assets the past few years for MSL, Yandle, etc.
It is what it is. Our guys expect to get paid going into free agency and I dont blame them. Nearly impossible to keep this group together much longer.
As far as late 90s rebuilds... the tight salary cap hurts you in good times, but it also protects you in bad ones... it wouldnt take nearly as long to rebuild now if done properly.
Hell... Boston is retooling now... you can argue about the quality of their draft picking if you like... but basically taking a 3 year timeout to get back to contending status by 2018. We may very well adopt that philosophy as soon as next offseason. If done properly, there's no shame in that.
Anyway... hopefully we can sign Stepan at $6mm per year. I think that's fair personally... 6.5mm starts to get tight but i'd still do it. I'm only suggesting explore trades at $7mm which IMO is too much for him.
there's like 18 months separating Bergeron and Kopitar.
somehow Kopitar is on some massive upward swing, but Bergeron is broken down?
Datsyuk is in their class (and much better than Stepan) at 36 years old.
Hockey players all age, the bruins were a dumpster fire last year, and Bergeron was his usual self.
If I have a choice of Bergeron the next three years or Stepan it's not close and I don't think NHL GM's would disagree with me. Problem is Bergeron is signed for 6 years.
Time for an upgrade.
or was that as close to happening as Sather's make-believe Stamkos trade (you know... the one that didnt include the two most important decision makers from TBL being involved)
I went to the draft party that year. Room died when they picked Jessiman. Such a high risk move when they had nothing in the system.
MAB, I remember those rumors - and also remember an HF thread that asked if you'd take Crosby or Prucha, and a not-so-small minority picked Prucha. Lulz.
lol
HF - ( New Window )
We'll manage next year. Strip off Boyle (4.5), Klein (2.9) and if need by Yandle (~3?) and there is plenty of money to resign Kreider, Hayes (bridge), and back fill the roster. I cant really blame Sather for finally having a good team come due for contracts in the midst of a crash of oil prices which depress league revenues and hold the cap flat. Look at how no one is getting paid in UFA.
The notion that Sather has really mortgaged the future I think is overstated. The 4 #1s hurt, but they were late #1s. Sometimes you get top 6 guys in the late 20s, but usually not. Who here would take 4 very late #1s for a Stepan level talent (signed to a reasonable deal)? I probably wouldnt. Who are the prospects we've traded? Duclair! We'll see on him. Lots of speed/shot skill but we've seen it. Canada overmatched the WJCs and I dont think you can scount anyone from that. Who is the next best prospect he's traded for a vet in the last 5 years? Erixon, who hasnt panned out? Anyone else?
Losing Sauer still sucks three years later.
Link - ( New Window )
Just hope history doesnt repeat itself with Zuccs here. We've had so much bad luck with head injuries this decade, nearly losing Hank to a neck too.
Of course as i've said before, most of this preventable and thus frustrating... but clearly the relative head injuries to what other franchises endure is really unbelievable.
Just hope history doesnt repeat itself with Zuccs here. We've had so much bad luck with head injuries this decade, nearly losing Hank to a neck too.
Of course as i've said before, most of this preventable and thus frustrating... but clearly the relative head injuries to what other franchises endure is really unbelievable.
Stevens ended Lindros's career. Samuelson impacted Neely's career significantly (I won't say ended it but he was never really the same after that).
absolutely, how many concussions do you think the average athlete in hockey or football incurs? I think it's more than you think. Stevens was the coup de grace.
Those players dont need to turn into stars. But those picks and prospects could come up as cheap 3rd/4th liners or 2nd/3rd pairings and combined with the mid 20s talent today due for big pay raises... keep us as contenders.
But instead we are virtually bare in the system with guys still due raises and tough decisions like Hagelin, Talbot, Stralman, etc.... next year Yandle vs one of the power forwards... must be made that will make us a bit weaker every offseason.
I'm not even saying our mgmt has done a bad job -- peaks and valleys are impossible to avoid. Rebuilds are inevitable -- just have a Plan and stick to it. I'd rather suck for a few years and build around a few lottery picks..... then do what Philly and Detroit have done the past few years.
I might be a homer, but I think our crappy system will do fine filling the cheap roster spots. Buchnevich is a good a prospect as Kreider, Miller, and Hayes were before joining the team -- which is to say not a top 25 stud cornerstone prospect but really promising. Tambo has promise as a scoring PF-lite. Lindberg I think will be a fixture (better than Fast), and Nieves, Fogarty, and Iverson will probably yield at least one skate-hit-defend bottom 6er. Key is that our system is productive and we arent hard up for stars. Defensive group is thin though I am a huge Skjei fan.
I might be a homer, but I think our crappy system will do fine filling the cheap roster spots. Buchnevich is a good a prospect as Kreider, Miller, and Hayes were before joining the team -- which is to say not a top 25 stud cornerstone prospect but really promising. Tambo has promise as a scoring PF-lite. Lindberg I think will be a fixture (better than Fast), and Nieves, Fogarty, and Iverson will probably yield at least one skate-hit-defend bottom 6er. Key is that our system is productive and we arent hard up for stars. Defensive group is thin though I am a huge Skjei fan.
Kevin Hayes was the 24th pick in his draft year, Krieder 19th, Miller 15th, and Skjei 28th. Buch, of course, was taken a bit later and this doesn't get into the skating core of which this team was built upon. Of Stepan, Cally, Staal, McD, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Girardi, etc the majority seem to have been taken in the vicinity of the draft in which the Rangers would have had the opportunity to select in recent years had they not have traded out of those spots. If the Rangers so harshly devalued any pick not deemed "premium" this team would have been devoid of talent long ago.
It just seems counterintuitive to discount late 1st round picks at such a degree while then championing the players that this range of picks have traditionally yielded.
Kevin Hayes was the 24th pick in his draft year, Krieder 19th, Miller 15th, and Skjei 28th. Buch, of course, was taken a bit later and this doesn't get into the skating core of which this team was built upon. Of Stepan, Cally, Staal, McD, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Girardi, etc the majority seem to have been taken in the vicinity of the draft in which the Rangers would have had the opportunity to select in recent years had they not have traded out of those spots. If the Rangers so harshly devalued any pick not deemed "premium" this team would have been devoid of talent long ago.
It just seems counterintuitive to discount late 1st round picks at such a degree while then championing the players that this range of picks have traditionally yielded.
But the guys you're talking about werent late #1s, so it does disprove the reflexive "oh no, we traded late #1s". The only late #1s you list were Skjei (who hasnt done squat so far) and Hayes, who was someone else's #1 and fully developed before we signed him at age 21 (so some selection bias -- he could have been crap). My point is that a late late #1 cant be compared to a mid #1 which is where Miller came from and an early-mid #1 which is where McDonagh and Staal came from. Of course a #10 pick is a lot different from a #28 pick.
And then you get a listing of guys like Of Stepan (#51), Cally (#127), Dubinsky (#60), Anisimov (#54), Girardi (undrafted) -- none of them first rounders or even early 2nds. So my point that the people bemoaning the lack of firsts is even more valid -- it's not like you need late firsts to succeed. And it's not like we traded away 4 straight Staals or JT Millers, because those guys were taken in the top half of the first round. Of course late #1s have SOME value. It's just lazy to think of it as trading 4 #1s as if all #1s are the same. It's not as bad as the NBA, but there is just a world of difference at the top 10 and bottom 10 of the first round of the NHL draft.
That being said, to me this simply represents even more of an opportunity for the Rangers to exploit their strong scouting department and manage their assets in such a manner as to acquire even more chances to select in that second or third grouping of players. Four 1st rounders, or could we have leveraged that into eight 2nd round picks? Would I rather have had a few more cracks at selecting some nice players in that second and third tier (along with Lindberg on the big club this year) or MSL scoring a couple of goals in the 2014 playoffs and being an absolute liability in the 2015 run?
In this salary cap era the wealthy teams have but a few clear inherent advantages remaining over the smaller market clubs and this includes their ability to spend and structure the finest scouting and talent development programs in the world. The Rangers have shown themselves adept at such and to trade away the opportunities to exploit this advantage is foolish, imho.
Oh, and fuck MSL...still waiting for my jersey, Brett!
I agree with this line:
Much easier to have guys step in and be a fourth line winger and subsequently earning a top nine role than throwing them to the fire immediately (Fast is a good example).
I actually had no problem of Cally for MSL... i just didnt understand all the extra 1st rounders thrown in for fun... especially the part about making the ECF turning a 2nd into a 1st... who the fuck cares about making the ECF?
Three straight years with basically the same group is stale IMO. They need a face lift b/c they did not bury the Pens or Caps in the playoffs despite that Presidents Trophy.
The 1994 team would have blown those teams off the ice. This group struggled.
Three straight years with basically the same group is stale IMO. They need a face lift b/c they did not bury the Pens or Caps in the playoffs despite that Presidents Trophy.
I dont know if i agree with this or not - has the core really stayed the same? Seems to me a lot of changes have been made, maybe even too many - and i assume you picked 3 years, not 4, because of Nash.
I was underwhelmed with the playoff run too, but its possible injuries played a big part. And when healthy against Pittsburgh... yes, ugly games, but they were one of what 2 teams to win in 5 or less games out of 8 series?
I do think we need to trade at least 1 if not 2 defenders for some more offense. Preferably in the mold you discussed, which would be a Lucic / Simmonds type.. scoring touch with toughness (obviously we wont get back that level of talent, but someone who can play that type of role maybe on the 3rd line).
I'm not crazy about waiting on Stepan before making that D- move... we might become desperate sellers like Boston with Boychuk last year.
I'm with MAB on trading a guy before Stepan comes due. My first thought on the Klein stuff from Friedman was that the Rangers are playing the media to not look like forced sellers.
That's a huge problem
I just didn't think we were outplayed in the first two rounds - not that anyone said that, of course.
The while league say the Kings shut down the two/three line breakout pass and it shut the Rangers down. Everybody saw it and I find it hard to believe they'll allow the Rangers to get away with it all next regular season.
It's going to be a long season with this group I'm thinking. They've played a lot of hockey.
but St Louis wasn't great all season. The Rangers couldn't score in the playoffs. Who would have buried the biscuit in the net in replace of St Louis?
I do think we need a 3rd line scoring winger -- maybe Semin can fill that role, i dont know. But i want to get back to 4 capable scoring lines - which means Glass needs to go, and we need a 20 goal scorer to anchor that 3rd line. Assuming Zuccs is healthy, our top 2 lines are set. Just trade Girardi, Staal or Klein to clear up space for that 3rd line scorer.
Pieces are there... lets see how this group can do one more year with hopefully a bit more health this go round.
It's never easy or pretty to advance in the stanley cup -- TBL were on death row against lowly Detroit. Kings had 3 game 7s last year. We dont have Toews/Kane/Keith on this roster... it will never be easy (and the luck the Hawks have had in their first roudns with the opposing captains getting hurt early in series every year is astounding)
lol - "one freakin game" Actually, it was almost the entire Stanley Cup Finals and a left for dead Kings team which complete shut down the Rangers. If you think that "one freaken game" wasn't a blue print you must have missed the entire playoff yet focused one "freaken" 7-2 win against Ottawa.
As far as Semin you're showing how desperate you've become. Pass on that quitter. He's a spineless thief.
You are going back to June 2014 Finals.... when the Rangers then changed a decent % of the roster... and finished top 3 in scoring the following season??
How the fuck does this make any sense?
Sure, going forward but who? The point I'm making, the Rangers wore down teams by rotating four lines in the regular season. In playoffs with heightened awareness and stopping that breakout pass, the Rangers looked like 92 (sometime around then) with Turcotte type players who couldn't bury the biscuit. The couldn't score and often couldn't even get to the net.
As far as Semin you're showing how desperate you've become. Pass on that quitter. He's a spineless thief.
Not sure what you are referring to as "desperate" -- I'll assume we are having an adult conversation for now. I'm not in love with Semin either, but guys like that -- like Pouliot in 2014 -- can work well on this team as long as we only have a few of them.
The biggest reason our playoff scoring went down versus the prior postseason -- well aside from that fact that we faced so many back-ups in 2014 -- was that we got nothing from our 3rd and 4th lines this year. Injuries and inexperience, but also Tanner fucking Glass - played big parts in that. To win in the postseason we need to get back that scoring depth. Our 3rd line needs more punch to it.
You are going back to June 2014 Finals.... when the Rangers then changed a decent % of the roster... and finished top 3 in scoring the following season??
How the fuck does this make any sense?
I know you really don't understand hockey or the cap but maybe you try learning something rather than F'bombs and drooling in mass confusion
You are going back to June 2014 Finals.... when the Rangers then changed a decent % of the roster... and finished top 3 in scoring the following season??
How the fuck does this make any sense?
Look at who you're talking to. Why engage a troll?
+1
He struggled all season.
Look at who you're talking to. Why engage a troll?
Hey, fu Greg and your fat ass
The Kings in June 2014 sent out a blueprint on how to stop us... and then the following year the Rangers set a franchise points record and won a Presidents Trophy.
You can't make this stuff up.
Goal scorers tend to get PPGs. Nash didnt do it much (6 of 42), but Ovie had 25 PPG. Stamkos, JT, and Seguin all had 13. Pavelski had 19. Take away the PP and Claude Giroux doesnt score as much as Carl Hagelin over 3 seasons (in more game). But then you cant just take away the PP. And there's nothing particularly remarkable about MSL's % of PPGs; if anything it is on the low side.
But IIRC he stunk a good solid month even before that knee injury. Dont know if he was playing with something then or if the old adage of "when it goes, it goes fast" ... played a part here too
The Rangers, the following season after that 'blueprint', set a franchise record in points, finished 3rd in the league in scoring, and had best record in league... despite getting marginally worse in the offseason (Stralman, Pouliot, deterioration of 4th line, etc) which translated into weaker puck possession numbers.
So.... i dont think you're a dumb guy, just for whatever reason, 20% of the time you talk completely out of your ass.
Did the Rangers not score 20 goals in the Tampa series? And before that Kings series, how many goals did we score against Montreal's backup goalie?
This team has struggled to score playoff games for a decade now. It's not some new phenominon the Kings exposed genius.
Fucking brutal.
Plus as noted CBJ is a lot better, Pittsburgh is better, the Islanders will be more seasoned and thus a bit better, and Washington probably a bit better.
Man must be nice to be MTL & TBL this year... basically can rest up for their 2nd round rematch again next May. Atlantic division will suck.
I expect there to be fewer repeats in the Cap world, though, just as I expect fewer President Trophy winners to win the Cup.
Every single day it's the same thing.
He's always been somewhat one-dimensional. He never really pushed puck possession or was great defensively. But he became such a fucking anchor on any line he was on.
I agree if he isnt scoring he's useless. Not sure why he retired (was he unwanted, or did he ask for too much $$ or only some teams). I doubt we'll be better off without him if he plays like first half of the season MSL; we will be better off w/o him if he plays like 2015 playoffs MSL. And we were in a terrible cap crunch.
Im not at all upset that he's gone. It's the right move. I just dont want to unnecessarily drag him down in a manner inconsistent with what I saw.
Either way I don't want to win the President's Trophy. Key guys like Giradi and Staal should get fewer minutes even if it means fewer points for the club. The same goes for Nash. Home or away means little in the Stanley Cup Playoffs.
I'm with MAB on trading a guy before Stepan comes due. My first thought on the Klein stuff from Friedman was that the Rangers are playing the media to not look like forced sellers.
And this is a big reason why I think the cap as currently implemented is flawed.
Stephan given O'Reilly definitely deserves that pay day, but is he really worth just 2 mill less than a Malkin? Hell no, he's not even an all star...and that is the problem with this cap....an accomplished player is going to get paid remarkably similar to a super star...which means any team with experienced good but not super players is going to be up against the cap putting them at a disadvantage.
In football, you have a franchise QB, he hogs the cap...if you have a so so QB you do have a lot more cap space and this is the issue.
I am really surprised there has not been hardly any national hockey media attention to this problem.
How you stop indirectly responding to practically every one of my posts Crosby? Don't let the Flying puck hit you mouth.
Quote:
This team has struggled to score playoff games for a decade now. It's not some new phenominon the Kings exposed genius.
Ok, you don't see it. The Rangers breakout pass just suddenly disappeared for some unknown reason and that's linked to being unable to score for a decade in the playoffs now. That's MAB and strays.
The hockey fans know. That Kings/Rangers game was like a playoff game. The Kings showed everybody how to shut it down just as they shut the Rangers version the previous playoff year.
That contract is such a steal.
Either way I don't want to win the President's Trophy. Key guys like Giradi and Staal should get fewer minutes even if it means fewer points for the club. The same goes for Nash. Home or away means little in the Stanley Cup Playoffs.
+1 - a lot of Rangers have played a lot of hockey the past two years. Asking for three straight long seasons is a lot to ask IMO.
I just hope they aren't dragging like the Kings next season and find themselves fighting for a long while just to get into the playoffs.
Every single day it's the same thing.
And...
Giants2012 : 1:12 pm : link : reply
In comment 12365748 Torrag said:
Quote:
Either way I don't want to win the President's Trophy. Key guys like Giradi and Staal should get fewer minutes even if it means fewer points for the club. The same goes for Nash. Home or away means little in the Stanley Cup Playoffs.
+1
+1
feel like piling on here.
Sather sucks.
#itsjustmath
Buffalo is looking for D- help. They'll probably snag Oduya but i'd like to see us pawn off trade Girardi to them please
Girardi or Staal for Tyler Ennis... prove to us you belong here, Gorton
Dynasty in the making. Franchise doubles its Cup count by the end of the decade.
Instead, window shut and Lundqvist is Cup-less.
we both know Glen and AV would have made room for #15 no matter what. You cant put a price on Mr Intangibles (6 minutes TOI in game 7, -1 anyway)
Thanks for the insight on Lindberg, Torrag.
And if you combine their cap hit, it's still not as much as Glass'
#Sather'd
What We Learned: How much is Derek Stepan really worth? - ( New Window )