Clearly, this is one of the best rosters in the NHL. But, he's made some crucial gambles and I'm merely suggesting he got waxed on some of the deals. Waxed when his strong suit historically has been winning on trades. His age and trying to win one more on his watch are clearly part of his overall thought process and choosing to gamble, and it's become a concern, imv.
I'm curious to know what you viewed as the better alternative(s) given where the team is going into this offseason.
I think it's hard to disagree with the premise that trading Hagelin was ultimately a result of some questionable decisions made previously. Those have been well documented.
I'm curious to know what you'd have them do differently in the present, given the past. You were just hired as GM after the loss to TB. What were the better ideas than what happened today?
Trade Steps? Plan on possibly losing Kreider or Hayes or Miller or Fast?
I'm sure there are a dozen viable and reasonable answers. I'm just trying to get a better read on where people are coming from.
There's way too much information we don't have here. A lot depends on what Stepan gets. It's a lot more understandable if he signs for $6.5M. But of he comes in below that, I think Klein/Glass maneuvering would have allowed the team to keep Hagelin.
With that said, I wouldn't be shocked if there was a desire to change the locker room a bit as well.
I think youngsters like Lindberg, McIl, and Skjei will be the type of quality depth to keep the window open.
But, the lack of scoring talent on the top lines, and missing some size/physicality over 60 minutes needs to be fixed. Very good NHL contending roster, but still needs something.
Brooks' latest touches on some of these same points.
In fact I can not stand the arrogant bastard For people who were too young, when he was with Edmonton and he lost some of his big players due to cap issues, he stated he would win the cup every year if he was in New York, well how fuckin long has the prick been here and how many cups do we have?
Sorry, but he has always rubbed me the wrong way, and he is a former Ranger player too boot. I know he was frustrated with losing the greatest player in the game, then Mess, but that was a low blow to the Rangers management back then, in fact when he got here he fucked up everything until a cap was forced on him and he had to get back to being a real GM and actually fuckin work!
It was easy to knock Smith, but he did everything to get us a cup, that was what everyone wanted, he did screw us in the long term with some of his trades to get that cup, but at least he got us a cup, but fuck face did nothing but cry when he got here about our horrible system that was bare, well he had all the money he could want, the ability to spend it, and his great brain, so what happened, we were going to win every year.
Not one cup is a failure, period, there is no excuse anymore, and so those who want to make one up, go ahead, he is stripping our system and not winning any cups, sorry but that is horrible. I am 61, yet I still want a good minor league system before anything else, that is the way to keep an organization a winner, then if you have a good GM, he makes savvy moves to get you over the hump, he has not delivered on this.
There are good people in the organization, guys who did build our minor league system, these guys need to be handed the keys to the kingdom now, if that does not happen you will not only see no cup, but you will see a poor team for years in the very near future with the way he is running it now. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am, but time will show I will be correct, I love the Rangers, and I have been a fan since the 1966/1967 season. I have seen this act before.
In fact I can not stand the arrogant bastard For people who were too young, when he was with Edmonton and he lost some of his big players due to cap issues, he stated he would win the cup every year if he was in New York, well how fuckin long has the prick been here and how many cups do we have?
+1
He did say that.
Quite a run and snowstorm he and Muckler were running in Edmonton (if you know what I mean).
I was surprised not to see a defenseman moved this weekend.
McIlrath and Allen have to make the team this year or go on waivers. McIlrath will almost certainly have value elsewhere. Like I've said before, I'd prefer to basically run with 7D with the seventh guy playing 50-60 games by rotating through the lineup to give guys rest. I doubt that would ever happen, though.
As Greg has posted, adding McIlrath to the mix would give us three slow defenseman, assuming Klein were the one to go.
Also, Brooks loves overexaggerating. I don't anticipate the team being the top of the East again, but I doubt they're a fringe playoff team.
Let's not forget the team was at its best the back half of the regular season - when Nash's production deteriorated and MSL died.
RE: I was surprised not to see a defenseman moved this weekend.
McIlrath and Allen have to make the team this year or go on waivers. McIlrath will almost certainly have value elsewhere. Like I've said before, I'd prefer to basically run with 7D with the seventh guy playing 50-60 games by rotating through the lineup to give guys rest. I doubt that would ever happen, though.
As Greg has posted, adding McIlrath to the mix would give us three slow defenseman, assuming Klein were the one to go.
Also, Brooks loves overexaggerating. I don't anticipate the team being the top of the East again, but I doubt they're a fringe playoff team.
Let's not forget the team was at its best the back half of the regular season - when Nash's production deteriorated and MSL died.
Almost never mentioned is Hunwick -- I like what I saw of him.
it sure did, but from what we can gather from sort of disparate clues, they had a lot more cooking Friday than they served up Saturday. But they should still be able to move a D or something else for cap room/prospect opportunities.
RE: RE: For those up in arms about the Hagelin trade:
With that said, I wouldn't be shocked if there was a desire to change the locker room a bit as well.
so the answer to improving the lockerroom is trading the hardest working player on the team? yet another guy that plays a great two way game an helps kill penalties?
and while his postseason wasn't good - wasnt it crystal clear to anyone with a clue that MSL killed that entire line?
the talbot deal pisses me off too only because we had two 2s from Calgary and I'm sure we could have got buffalo's #21. sather overplayed his hand and ended up with a dildo in his ass when lehner and hamilton got dealt. but this is like losing Boyle last season... the hagelin deal still has me dumbfounded.
trading klein talbot and glass an cutting msl would have solved our 2015-2016 and probably 2017 cap issues. that was the crystal clear way to go -- somehow hagelin was dealt and we don't even have duclair here to replace him
and all this in an offseason where there isn't going to be a gamechanger. we were a presidents trophy winner with a fuckload of injuries in the postseason built to win now.... NOW we decide to recoup some (irrelevant) picks? fuck sather
there were 10 legit playoff teams before this week in the east but Boston just took themselves out. now there is 9 - and Ottawa columbus and Florida in that group don't have a lot of depth.
but we took a serious step back this week. I do think AV knows how to win in the regular season though. just not sure with the 3rd and 4th lines wacked with incompetency the past two offaeasons that this team can give itself another chance. I don't know. as Brett said - Its becoming a two line team with a good defense/goalie and others have better top lines
Agreed, Phil. I thought a package of Talbot and one of Hags/Klein could have fetched quite a bit (and was told from someone it could have fetched nine, but I don't believe this information to be near certain, so take it with a grain of salt). Perhaps they think they can move Girardi/Staal, or even have Klein for half the year and move him to bring up Skjei. Still a lot of time. Can't help but be a bit disappointed overall. My comments on the D are more thinking out loud,
MAB: I'm not sure if NHL coaches desire a locker room as chummy as the Rangers seem to be. A desire to shake things up could have played a role. Trading one of the more well-liked guys in the room changes the dynamics a bit.
And I think the team probably views Fast/Lindberg as comparable players to Hagelin.
With that said, I would have tried to sign Hagelin for a one (or preferably two) year deal at $3.5M. Moving up and getting Etem seems an inferior alternative than keeping Hagelin for a year.
MAB: I'm not sure if NHL coaches desire a locker room as chummy as the Rangers seem to be. A desire to shake things up could have played a role. Trading one of the more well-liked guys in the room changes the dynamics a bit.
not attacking you - but if this is the mindset it makes no sense. I thought we'd win the metro again this year before this weekend - now after basically giving cam and hagelin (and MSL) away... not so sure. window is closing fast folks.
if some dipshit in the front office this a 'too chummy' clubhouse is the reason a team lost two home games in the ECF... despite missing a top line Wing and several defenders playing with serious injuries... after winning a presidents cup and coming back from 1-3 on the capitals
...then resign now you fucking moron
now if there are internal replacements for hagelin that werent there for Klein or even Staal post July 1..... I vehemently disagree...
but at least in the latter case we aren't putting this franchise in the hands of gutt feelings and bullshit nonsense.
Despite his speed, Hagelin has still never scored 20 goals in a season.
He scored 19 goals in 101 games this season.
Him leaving is no indication the door is shutting. Not to mention, it's June and the return for Hags was fine with reinforcements already in the system before free agency even begins.
all gone with not a thing to show for it. please with etem.
is sky falling? no, but I no longer consider us the favorites in the metro. maybe July 1 changes things - we do have a surplus of defenders, I just think our mgmt team vastly overplayed their hand with talbot and got caught realing when dougie Hamilton unexpectedly got dealt.
hagelin doesn't play powerplay and was one of our best PKrs. hardest working guy on the team. this trade sucks. I know we all root for the laundry but it's guys like hagelin that have made me fall in love with this team.
MAB: I'm not sure if NHL coaches desire a locker room as chummy as the Rangers seem to be. A desire to shake things up could have played a role. Trading one of the more well-liked guys in the room changes the dynamics a bit.
not attacking you - but if this is the mindset it makes no sense. I thought we'd win the metro again this year before this weekend - now after basically giving cam and hagelin (and MSL) away... not so sure. window is closing fast folks.
Didn't you just pick the Islanders to win the division a week ago?
rangers to win when it matters. have we not learned by now regular season isn't all that big a deal - just get in in a way that doesn't have you on the road every single round
Jaesper Fast had as many goals as MSL and Hagelin combined in the playoffs while Talbot never played.
The going rate for a backup goalie in only a third rounder yet slats got three picks. The return was great. Haglein has already been replaced and the Rangers spent two picks last year on goalies and just traded Haggerty (a freebee college free agent) for a backup.
The Rangers are fine and the door is not closing b/c they lost a 26 year old who never scored 20 goals, a 41 year old with one foot in the hockey grave and backup goalie.
There have been a handful of articles that discussed the desire to
Change up the locker room a bit. Hagelin was pretty obviously moved for cap reasons - but theit seemed to be a desire to make a bit of a change. There was the ability to keep Hagelin with a bit of maneuvering, especially for this year.
Also, look at the video below if you don't think teams trade guys for idiotic reasons (culture, sleeping with someone's wife, etc.). The fact the Rangers signs sleds like Glass for toughness makes me think there's a possibility they wanted to shake things up. Bruins discussing Seguin - ( New Window )
The Rangers very likely misplayed their hand and didn't maximize the value of an asset - something I think they've done far too often the 18 months.
Talbot was the consensus prize on the goaltending market - yet Lehner fetched more than he did. Then Calgary made a trade... Edmonton traded two picks, and the market evaporated.
so they got better than edmontons #33 and the defender
they did better than Ottawa did for their unproven guy?
they did better than getting calgarys two second rounders?
no. it was arrogant nonsense - we all knew when they waited as long as they did it would blow up on them.
regardless ... hopefully Hank stays healthy. and we all trust allaire to work with the new backup to get him up to speed.
the real crushing blow was giving up hagelin for an inferior player. yes, to your point hagelin was replaced..... with a lesser player. where does this leave us?
And Sather seemed to have an obsession with ensuring Talbot went out
the real crushing blow was giving up hagelin for an inferior player. yes, to your point hagelin was replaced..... with a lesser player. where does this leave us?
With a younger player, more cap space and the ability to promote from within.
You really thought the whole roster was coming back? They'll be more changes coming.
Did you want to send him to Florida for Hayes brother? So the Panthers get a solid goalie with that growing power and the Rangers can't afford Hayes?
The Rangers got three picks for a backup goalie. End of story
Like Phil said, Gorton's demeanor was much different than we often see. And his comments were more damning than his body language.
I'd have no issue trading him to the Islanders or Flyers if that were the best offer on the table. Neither Florida or Buffalo are even in the division.
And if the team were that damn worried about him burning them, they should have sat the guy who gave up six goals twice in the ECF down and asked him who he'd waive his NMC for instead.
JB @JB_HockeyTalk 21h21 hours ago
The Florida Panthers were believed to be offering two 3rd round picks, a 5th round pick, and Jimmy Hayes for Cam Talbot.
That's the real way to replace Hagelin. A guy who had a really similar season to Hagelin's. I like Etem and think he'll do well for us, but Hayes' production essentially rivals Hagelin's...and in fewer games. AND we would've gotten 3rd rounders. Never mind the first rounder, which DARREN DREGER CONFIRMED.
Sather screwed the pooch. No other way to say it. Fuck Talbot staying in the conference (not division, CONFERENCE). It's not a big deal, especially since he'd be backing up Luongo. And if Sather has so much confidence in Talbot's ability that he could turn around Florida, why the hell would he trade him, let alone for cents on the dollar? If anything, you can trade him at the trading deadline and get a king's ransom for goalie-needy teams.
I would've thought the team could have gotten a second at the deadline
The Rangers made it clear they were going to trade him, though (and almost had to because of the cap, anyway). They lost a lot of leverage. I wonder if they could have fetched a 2016 first if they waited until today and at least pretended they may have held onto him.
Maybe you end up with nothing if you try for a 1st Rounder in 2016.
Some fans are too hung up on the 2nd Round IMO. Heck, the Rangers just traded for Etem who was 1st Rounder. Hiw come people aren't excited? Probably b/c, like I've said before (any manynof you already know this) you can almost throw out the Round for the NHL draft after the first 10-12 picks. This isn't the NFL draft including young men north of 20 years of age. These are a bunch boys in the 17-18 range and we've seen how often these picks miss.
The Rangers early round draft history has been scary bad with a few hits. For every Kreider there are many misses while Buch, DuClair were 3rd rounders, Graves is in the pipeline as a 4th Rounder and Fast went in Round 6.
The more picks the better for the NHL draft as i see it. If the higher picks were so great how come we're more excited about Buch and Graves rather than and Tambelini and McIlrath?
I think it's hard to disagree with the premise that trading Hagelin was ultimately a result of some questionable decisions made previously. Those have been well documented.
I'm curious to know what you'd have them do differently in the present, given the past. You were just hired as GM after the loss to TB. What were the better ideas than what happened today?
Trade Steps? Plan on possibly losing Kreider or Hayes or Miller or Fast?
I'm sure there are a dozen viable and reasonable answers. I'm just trying to get a better read on where people are coming from.
There's way too much information we don't have here. A lot depends on what Stepan gets. It's a lot more understandable if he signs for $6.5M. But of he comes in below that, I think Klein/Glass maneuvering would have allowed the team to keep Hagelin.
With that said, I wouldn't be shocked if there was a desire to change the locker room a bit as well.
But, the lack of scoring talent on the top lines, and missing some size/physicality over 60 minutes needs to be fixed. Very good NHL contending roster, but still needs something.
Brooks' latest touches on some of these same points.
Link - ( New Window )
Sorry, but he has always rubbed me the wrong way, and he is a former Ranger player too boot. I know he was frustrated with losing the greatest player in the game, then Mess, but that was a low blow to the Rangers management back then, in fact when he got here he fucked up everything until a cap was forced on him and he had to get back to being a real GM and actually fuckin work!
It was easy to knock Smith, but he did everything to get us a cup, that was what everyone wanted, he did screw us in the long term with some of his trades to get that cup, but at least he got us a cup, but fuck face did nothing but cry when he got here about our horrible system that was bare, well he had all the money he could want, the ability to spend it, and his great brain, so what happened, we were going to win every year.
Not one cup is a failure, period, there is no excuse anymore, and so those who want to make one up, go ahead, he is stripping our system and not winning any cups, sorry but that is horrible. I am 61, yet I still want a good minor league system before anything else, that is the way to keep an organization a winner, then if you have a good GM, he makes savvy moves to get you over the hump, he has not delivered on this.
There are good people in the organization, guys who did build our minor league system, these guys need to be handed the keys to the kingdom now, if that does not happen you will not only see no cup, but you will see a poor team for years in the very near future with the way he is running it now. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am, but time will show I will be correct, I love the Rangers, and I have been a fan since the 1966/1967 season. I have seen this act before.
+1
He did say that.
Quite a run and snowstorm he and Muckler were running in Edmonton (if you know what I mean).
As Greg has posted, adding McIlrath to the mix would give us three slow defenseman, assuming Klein were the one to go.
Also, Brooks loves overexaggerating. I don't anticipate the team being the top of the East again, but I doubt they're a fringe playoff team.
Let's not forget the team was at its best the back half of the regular season - when Nash's production deteriorated and MSL died.
As Greg has posted, adding McIlrath to the mix would give us three slow defenseman, assuming Klein were the one to go.
Also, Brooks loves overexaggerating. I don't anticipate the team being the top of the East again, but I doubt they're a fringe playoff team.
Let's not forget the team was at its best the back half of the regular season - when Nash's production deteriorated and MSL died.
Almost never mentioned is Hunwick -- I like what I saw of him.
Jay: Yes, I like Hunwick a lot as a 6/7D. If one of our top six is moved, I'd love him back.
Or, prepare to bury/trade Glass.
And the same applies to Glass, who I think could be traded. I just don't think the team agrees with our viewpoint.
One of the two has to go IMO.
With that said, I wouldn't be shocked if there was a desire to change the locker room a bit as well.
so the answer to improving the lockerroom is trading the hardest working player on the team? yet another guy that plays a great two way game an helps kill penalties?
and while his postseason wasn't good - wasnt it crystal clear to anyone with a clue that MSL killed that entire line?
the talbot deal pisses me off too only because we had two 2s from Calgary and I'm sure we could have got buffalo's #21. sather overplayed his hand and ended up with a dildo in his ass when lehner and hamilton got dealt. but this is like losing Boyle last season... the hagelin deal still has me dumbfounded.
trading klein talbot and glass an cutting msl would have solved our 2015-2016 and probably 2017 cap issues. that was the crystal clear way to go -- somehow hagelin was dealt and we don't even have duclair here to replace him
and all this in an offseason where there isn't going to be a gamechanger. we were a presidents trophy winner with a fuckload of injuries in the postseason built to win now.... NOW we decide to recoup some (irrelevant) picks? fuck sather
but we took a serious step back this week. I do think AV knows how to win in the regular season though. just not sure with the 3rd and 4th lines wacked with incompetency the past two offaeasons that this team can give itself another chance. I don't know. as Brett said - Its becoming a two line team with a good defense/goalie and others have better top lines
MAB: I'm not sure if NHL coaches desire a locker room as chummy as the Rangers seem to be. A desire to shake things up could have played a role. Trading one of the more well-liked guys in the room changes the dynamics a bit.
And I think the team probably views Fast/Lindberg as comparable players to Hagelin.
With that said, I would have tried to sign Hagelin for a one (or preferably two) year deal at $3.5M. Moving up and getting Etem seems an inferior alternative than keeping Hagelin for a year.
MAB: I'm not sure if NHL coaches desire a locker room as chummy as the Rangers seem to be. A desire to shake things up could have played a role. Trading one of the more well-liked guys in the room changes the dynamics a bit.
not attacking you - but if this is the mindset it makes no sense. I thought we'd win the metro again this year before this weekend - now after basically giving cam and hagelin (and MSL) away... not so sure. window is closing fast folks.
...then resign now you fucking moron
now if there are internal replacements for hagelin that werent there for Klein or even Staal post July 1..... I vehemently disagree...
but at least in the latter case we aren't putting this franchise in the hands of gutt feelings and bullshit nonsense.
where did you even read this utter bullshit excuse anyway?
He scored 19 goals in 101 games this season.
Him leaving is no indication the door is shutting. Not to mention, it's June and the return for Hags was fine with reinforcements already in the system before free agency even begins.
is sky falling? no, but I no longer consider us the favorites in the metro. maybe July 1 changes things - we do have a surplus of defenders, I just think our mgmt team vastly overplayed their hand with talbot and got caught realing when dougie Hamilton unexpectedly got dealt.
hagelin doesn't play powerplay and was one of our best PKrs. hardest working guy on the team. this trade sucks. I know we all root for the laundry but it's guys like hagelin that have made me fall in love with this team.
Quote:
MAB: I'm not sure if NHL coaches desire a locker room as chummy as the Rangers seem to be. A desire to shake things up could have played a role. Trading one of the more well-liked guys in the room changes the dynamics a bit.
not attacking you - but if this is the mindset it makes no sense. I thought we'd win the metro again this year before this weekend - now after basically giving cam and hagelin (and MSL) away... not so sure. window is closing fast folks.
Didn't you just pick the Islanders to win the division a week ago?
The going rate for a backup goalie in only a third rounder yet slats got three picks. The return was great. Haglein has already been replaced and the Rangers spent two picks last year on goalies and just traded Haggerty (a freebee college free agent) for a backup.
The Rangers are fine and the door is not closing b/c they lost a 26 year old who never scored 20 goals, a 41 year old with one foot in the hockey grave and backup goalie.
Also, look at the video below if you don't think teams trade guys for idiotic reasons (culture, sleeping with someone's wife, etc.). The fact the Rangers signs sleds like Glass for toughness makes me think there's a possibility they wanted to shake things up.
Bruins discussing Seguin - ( New Window )
Greed is good but it's also delusional. The Rangers weren't getting Gretzky for a backup goalie and Hagelin was never Jari Kurri.
Let's come back to reality.
Talbot was the consensus prize on the goaltending market - yet Lehner fetched more than he did. Then Calgary made a trade... Edmonton traded two picks, and the market evaporated.
they did better than getting calgarys two second rounders?
no. it was arrogant nonsense - we all knew when they waited as long as they did it would blow up on them.
regardless ... hopefully Hank stays healthy. and we all trust allaire to work with the new backup to get him up to speed.
the real crushing blow was giving up hagelin for an inferior player. yes, to your point hagelin was replaced..... with a lesser player. where does this leave us?
I don't know how you can be satisfied when all data points indicate the team could have done better.
Did you want to send him to Florida for Hayes brother? So the Panthers get a solid goalie with that growing power and the Rangers can't afford Hayes?
The Rangers got three picks for a backup goalie. End of story
the real crushing blow was giving up hagelin for an inferior player. yes, to your point hagelin was replaced..... with a lesser player. where does this leave us?
With a younger player, more cap space and the ability to promote from within.
You really thought the whole roster was coming back? They'll be more changes coming.
Did you want to send him to Florida for Hayes brother? So the Panthers get a solid goalie with that growing power and the Rangers can't afford Hayes?
The Rangers got three picks for a backup goalie. End of story
Like Phil said, Gorton's demeanor was much different than we often see. And his comments were more damning than his body language.
I'd have no issue trading him to the Islanders or Flyers if that were the best offer on the table. Neither Florida or Buffalo are even in the division.
And if the team were that damn worried about him burning them, they should have sat the guy who gave up six goals twice in the ECF down and asked him who he'd waive his NMC for instead.
The Florida Panthers were believed to be offering two 3rd round picks, a 5th round pick, and Jimmy Hayes for Cam Talbot.
Did you want to send him to Florida for Hayes brother? So the Panthers get a solid goalie with that growing power and the Rangers can't afford Hayes?
The Rangers got three picks for a backup goalie. End of story
Yes. Yes, I would've preferred that. You know he'd be a backup to Luongo.
Sather screwed the pooch. No other way to say it. Fuck Talbot staying in the conference (not division, CONFERENCE). It's not a big deal, especially since he'd be backing up Luongo. And if Sather has so much confidence in Talbot's ability that he could turn around Florida, why the hell would he trade him, let alone for cents on the dollar? If anything, you can trade him at the trading deadline and get a king's ransom for goalie-needy teams.
Come Home - ( New Window )
Some fans are too hung up on the 2nd Round IMO. Heck, the Rangers just traded for Etem who was 1st Rounder. Hiw come people aren't excited? Probably b/c, like I've said before (any manynof you already know this) you can almost throw out the Round for the NHL draft after the first 10-12 picks. This isn't the NFL draft including young men north of 20 years of age. These are a bunch boys in the 17-18 range and we've seen how often these picks miss.
The Rangers early round draft history has been scary bad with a few hits. For every Kreider there are many misses while Buch, DuClair were 3rd rounders, Graves is in the pipeline as a 4th Rounder and Fast went in Round 6.
The more picks the better for the NHL draft as i see it. If the higher picks were so great how come we're more excited about Buch and Graves rather than and Tambelini and McIlrath?