Walter Thurmond: Coughlin doesn't believe in modern medicine

very disconcerting.

But I always take ex-players comments with a grain of salt.

But there certainly are people who are inclined to brush aside such trends, and Coughlin could certainly be such a person.

like SFGF said, ex players opinions can't be always taken seriously.

Tom Coughlin has final say on the methods used to treat injuries?

injury prevention

Pretty sure I told you guys about the old military equipment a while back...

the most contemporary video training techniques.

someday soon players will be using Oculus Rift to simulate game situations. today they use simulation software on tablets/laptops. a friend of mine claims Belichick is a power user.

to track players during practice?

Interpretation, he said she said. Whatevs. track who believes this as gospel.. (Sanfran)

he believes in leeches and rubbing a little dirt on injuries?

Didn't the FAA just say the Giants didn't have permission to use the drone?

isn't overruling the med staff or trainers....
We have a high amount of injuries but this is rehab Thurmond is talking about...no?

We have a whole complex for rehab with the best doctors
in the NYC area.

In comment 12348535 Peter in Atl said:

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to track players during practice?

Yup?!

This is the guy who shorted workouts last year. He adopted , hook line and sinker, the radical methods the Eagles apparently used with great effectiveness in the previous year.

He cut workouts according to data individual GPS's fed the computer. He ordered new stretching techniques, etc. etc.

I don't mind a guy mis-interpreting but based on everything I've read quite the opposite is true.

This is the guy who shorted workouts last year. He adopted , hook line and sinker, the radical methods the Eagles apparently used with great effectiveness in the previous year.

He cut workouts according to data individual GPS's fed the computer. He ordered new stretching techniques, etc. etc.

I don't mind a guy mis-interpreting but based on everything I've read quite the opposite is true.

it seems obvious that he isnt talking about leeches and blood letting. It's not an injury thing. The context is sports science and IMPROVED performance.

Does TC do all those little sports science things like tracking how far players run in practice? I guess not.

Are learning from others here. Not very debatable. "Injuries are a cancer" + leading the league in games missed by starters in consecutive years are the facts.

That said they are trending in a. Ore positive direction here.

We haven't really done much, at least to our knowledge, until last year with using technology to help prevent injuries. Even then, I specifically remember TC being ticked off about having to stop practice early to stretch. TC no doubt has an old school approach when it comes to injuries. He thinks it is mind over matter. In some cases that may work. It doesn't seem to work in most cases though.

The fights in those comments between Giant and Eagles fans is incredibly painful to read. It's like Anak and Hudson on an Islander / Ranger thread.

means to Thurmond. I didn't clink the link so maybe it's there, but there's an entire staff in place. Hard to believe 1 guy, HC or not, would be able to completely change the medical culture of a team. Seems like a bitter jab and nothing more.

coughlin. dr. warren and ronnie barnes have been around a looooong time. as has coughlin. something to think about

In comment 12348554 robbieballs2003 said:

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We haven't really done much, at least to our knowledge, until last year with using technology to help prevent injuries. Even then, I specifically remember TC being ticked off about having to stop practice early to stretch. TC no doubt has an old school approach when it comes to injuries. He thinks it is mind over matter. In some cases that may work. It doesn't seem to work in most cases though.

Maybe many fans put the over under at three games played for a team before they will listen to what they have to say.

Walter thanks for the memories, oh wait there were none.

In comment 12348558 UConn4523 said:

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means to Thurmond. I didn't clink the link so maybe it's there, but there's an entire staff in place. Hard to believe 1 guy, HC or not, would be able to completely change the medical culture of a team. Seems like a bitter jab and nothing more.

Coughlin is the head coach. I would be surprised if he didn't have that kind of power. He picks the staff. Who's going to tell him no?

Parcells was pretty old school, right? We didn't seem to have these issues when we were "old fashioned".

?

didn't the Giants use some sort of technology last year that regularly monitored the players and told the coaches when to stop practice?

In comment 12348570 Eric from BBI said:

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didn't the Giants use some sort of technology last year that regularly monitored the players and told the coaches when to stop practice?

Yup, "GPS" monitoring during practice.
Link - ( New Window )

As has been discussed many times on the site (and explained in detail by SOTI), that was in reference to players quitting on the season when it was clear their playoff chances were dead. That happened in spades in Fassel's last year.

is Thurmond implying that his torn pectoral muscle (which I'm pretty sure was an in-game injury) was due to Coughlin?

Pete Carroll to blame for the broken leg he suffered in Seattle?

and people are entitled to their opinions, but after some thought, I think this is probably a bunch of crap. Not to say Thurmond is lying, but when you have 50+ dudes in a locker room with different bodies, different personalities, different "motivational soft spots" if you will, it's impossible for any one approach to anything sit well with everyone.

I think Coughlin's approach to both coaching and conditioning probably wasn't something Thurmond worked well with, and Thurmond connected dots that aren't really there with the inflated injuries we've had over the last two years.

There's no chance in hell that Mara and Tisch would let Coughlin put their investments in jeopardy. Coughlin proved in 2007 he's capable of adjusting. I just think Thurmond and Coughlin were probably in a round hole, square peg situation.

Read Thurmond's comments. He very clearly said that they started to come around to the change. There is a big difference between coming around to it and believeing in it. From the comments that I read about TC they were trying it but he didn't sound too impressed with it and even was annoyed that practice time was cut short because of it. I don't think Thurmond said anything wrong and I agree with what he said. It doesn't make TC a bad coach. It doesn't mean you can't win without this new approach. Why do people seem to have their panties in a bunch over this?

medical team.

Thurmond was here for less than one year.

drugs?

.

It is about training your body to avoid soft tissue injuries and even ligament damage. As most of you know a lot of ACL tears and achilles injuries are non-contact injuries. That is what it attempts to avoid. Obviously you aren't going to prevent an injury like Marcus Lattimore. I don't get the resistance to this. When we incorporated dynamic stretching into our warmups our soft tissue injuries dropped drastically on my teams.

What I don't get is that we know we have a problem. You can't chalk this consistentcy up to luck with our injuries. That is just lazy. There is evidence to show that this stuff works. You just have to commit to it. It has to be part of your daily regimen. People said there is no way in hell that the Eagles could keep up the pace they play at over a 16 game season. Well, they have done it two years in a row. If you want to say that is luck too then fine but what would it hurt to follow their lead?

In comment 12348587 Eric from BBI said:

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Thurmond was here for less than one year.

So? He can't tell TC's opinion on sports science in a year?

Chip Kelly's players have been complaining that his practices are a nightmare.

So which is it?

Because if he's been here less than one year, he has no reference to say something like "he's been getting better".

He signed in March 2014 and was put on IR in September. How many practices did he go through here? 30?

if TC was an old school "rub some dirt on it" kind of football guy that rolls his eyes at Chip Kelly's protein shakes and sleep schedules? Really?

In comment 12348594 Eric from BBI said:

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Chip Kelly's players have been complaining that his practices are a nightmare. So which is it?

Eric, you are totally missing the point. Who cares if Eagles players are complaining they practice too hard. It is much more than practicing. It is how they stretch and warm up. It is how they cool down. It is how they lift. It is what they eat. Etc. What does the actual practice have to do with sports science?

The leg is broken? Amputate it
-----Tom Coughlin?

...for, oh, about 7 days? Yeah, he's real clued in.

'Evil Humors' and came around to the 'Small dwarf or toad in your stomach' theory.

In comment 12348600 Chris in Philly said:

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if TC was an old school "rub some dirt on it" kind of football guy that rolls his eyes at Chip Kelly's protein shakes and sleep schedules? Really?

That's probably exactly who he is, but those kinds of decisions aren't up to him. He doesn't set medical policy or decide how to manage and treat injuries.

Thurmond isn't exactly an intellectual. What he was probably saying is that Coughlin doesn't do the whole sports science thing that Kelly does. Nobody in the league does. Kelly is on the bleeding edge of that. he's a trend setter.

In comment 12348596 Eric from BBI said:

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Because if he's been here less than one year, he has no reference to say something like "he's been getting better". He signed in March 2014 and was put on IR in September. How many practices did he go through here? 30?

Eric, you are really trying too hard to discredit Thurmond. Go back and read the camp reports. TC talked about implementing new technology that they haven't done before. He also complained about losing practice time because players were heating up too much or something like that. It doesn't take years to see that TC wasn't a big fan of it and it doesn't take years to see that he didn't do this stuff in the past. I have no idea if that GPS shit works. Neither did TC which explains his pessimism about it. Imo, this is coming from ownership. John Mara specifically said that injuries are a huge problem. It would be my guess that this GPS stuff came from him and was put on TC which could explain the resistance to it. Thurmond also has knowledge of Pete Carroll and Kelly so it is also easy to see the difference between the coaches. It is well known that the Giants feed their players crap while Chip Kelly has specific shakes for each player. That too is part of the sports science. If TC truly bought into this style then things wouldn't be so different.

I'm not trying to say that a shake is going to prevent an inury or not. I'm saying that other teams have bought in way more than we have and it isn't hard to see that. You don't need to be on the team for an extended period of time to see all of this.

In comment 12348607 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 12348600 Chris in Philly said: Quote: if TC was an old school "rub some dirt on it" kind of football guy that rolls his eyes at Chip Kelly's protein shakes and sleep schedules? Really? That's probably exactly who he is, but those kinds of decisions aren't up to him. He doesn't set medical policy or decide how to manage and treat injuries. Thurmond isn't exactly an intellectual. What he was probably saying is that Coughlin doesn't do the whole sports science thing that Kelly does. Nobody in the league does. Kelly is on the bleeding edge of that. he's a trend setter.

Well, let's be honest. If anyone knows anything about trend-setting....

Well, let's be honest. If anyone knows anything about trend-setting....

[/quote]

WTF is that? Bjork wouldn't wear that shit. Liberace wouldn't touch it. The eff.

In comment 12348572 Eric from BBI said:

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As has been discussed many times on the site (and explained in detail by SOTI), that was in reference to players quitting on the season when it was clear their playoff chances were dead. That happened in spades in Fassel's last year.

Eric. Did not know that, thanks.

Would overrule medical advice because he believes in the Charles Atlas program?

Give me a break

In comment 12348537 Randy in CT said:

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Interpretation, he said she said. Whatevs. track who believes this as gospel.. (Sanfran)

Of course you'd never believe anything negative about the Giants. Only good rumors and hearsay are believable.

Thurmond is obviously saying modern medicine but meaning sports science. He isn't overruling his medical staff unless the Giants just recently hired a new medical staff that has done extensive reseach and has experience in the field of sports science in terms of the way Thurmond is used to seeing.

What did Thurmond say that was so controversial? You would think he called TC a racist or something. All he said was that he does things differently than Carroll and Kelly and that he doesn't seem to really buy into the whole sports science thing. Woah, lets tar and feather this hooligan.

That's fine. At least choose believable rumors.

The idea that TC is at all irresponsible with the health of his players is a huge jump to make.

The idea that Tom handles how his players are medically treated is ludicrous. That's a franchise-level decision.

And the idea that even if the above two were true, in an era where players more than ever are coming face to face with health concerns, only Walter Thurmond had the guts to be the hero whistleblower, is even more hard to believe.

i guess it is important to know WHERE you are when you get hurt?

In comment 12348521 Sean said:

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like SFGF said, ex players opinions can't be always taken seriously.

Exactly!

In comment 12348568 Eric from BBI said:

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Parcells was pretty old school, right? We didn't seem to have these issues when we were "old fashioned".

Eric, no, Parcells was not old school in the least re strength and conditioning. His strength and conditioning head coach, Johnnie Parker, was using Soviet Block training methods, the most radically modern sports science stuff available then. The Giants were prolly among the most juiced teams in the league. They looked pumped up compared to others, as I recall.

The shit Chip Kelly is pushing is not modern. It is at best cutting edge, meaning shit he's trying out which no one else is doing, and at worst, experimental or even controversial. The Giants recently employed GPS tracking devises on players to monitor things and regulated it to ensure they weren't overworking. That flies flat in the face of Thurmond's comments. And the characterizing it as modern medicine is a joke. It is more like utilizing technology in unproven/experimental training methods.

i.e using thecnology to advance training? This notion that TC is hell bent on the stone age is a joke. Fine, he's not the mad scientist Kelly is. Most of them aren't. There not a lot of actual science behind what Kelly is doing because there isn't a lot of data to show its effectiveness. But if you don't think the team isn't exploring every angle on this, you don't know what you are talking about.

"Coughlin doesn't believe in global warming." It's clear from the GPS thing, from the change in diet choices offered at training camp last year, and from the drone experiment this year, that the Giants do not want to be behind the curve when it comes to innovation.

That definitely happened to this franchise in the late 60s and 70s. Teams like Dallas lapped us when it came to implementing computer tecnology and running our draft process. Pretty sure anyone connected to the Mara family remembers.

As others have pointed out, Coughlin is not a bleeding edge type of guy. He doesn't want to waste time with superflous stuff. OTOH he is as detailed a leader as there is. Interested in any possible edge others might get or he might get in competition with them.

Not a luddite. But he doesn't have to run this aspect of the Giants business either. The Giants will hire young, progeressive trainers, nutritionists, etc. if they see a possible benefit. Based on what we've seen in the recent past, I bet they all ready do.

In comment 12348755 aquidneck said:

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"Coughlin doesn't believe in global warming." It's clear from the GPS thing, from the change in diet choices offered at training camp last year, and from the drone experiment this year, that the Giants do not want to be behind the curve when it comes to innovation. That definitely happened to this franchise in the late 60s and 70s. Teams like Dallas lapped us when it came to implementing computer tecnology and running our draft process. Pretty sure anyone connected to the Mara family remembers. As others have pointed out, Coughlin is not a bleeding edge type of guy. He doesn't want to waste time with superflous stuff. OTOH he is as detailed a leader as there is. Interested in any possible edge others might get or he might get in competition with them. Not a luddite. But he doesn't have to run this aspect of the Giants business either. The Giants will hire young, progeressive trainers, nutritionists, etc. if they see a possible benefit. Based on what we've seen in the recent past, I bet they all ready do.

Agreed. I bet the Giants training, nutrition and medical approaches are all state of the art.

if he identified specific practices.

In comment 12348568 Eric from BBI said:

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Parcells was pretty old school, right? We didn't seem to have these issues when we were "old fashioned".

Parcells teams didn't seem to get as many injuries as other teams across the league from what I remember.

Thurman should have given at least a couple of specifics about this claim against TC. This guy was injured most of the year and this could be a sour grapes charge otherwise. Of course the media will run with anything for a story.

in the "neanderthal" '80s.

In comment 12348596 Eric from BBI said:

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Because if he's been here less than one year, he has no reference to say something like "he's been getting better". He signed in March 2014 and was put on IR in September. How many practices did he go through here? 30?

Players talk. Perhaps while on IR, he talked to others that are on IR and that's what they told him, and so now in the interview he is repeating it.

In comment 12348626 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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That's fine. At least choose believable rumors. The idea that TC is at all irresponsible with the health of his players is a huge jump to make. The idea that Tom handles how his players are medically treated is ludicrous. That's a franchise-level decision. And the idea that even if the above two were true, in an era where players more than ever are coming face to face with health concerns, only Walter Thurmond had the guts to be the hero whistleblower, is even more hard to believe.

Hammer pegs it! Tom leaves this stuff up to the medical team. Knowing Tom, he probably just hasn't seen enough substantial evidence in the benefits of some of this modern medicine stuff to speak highly of it. It doesn't mean he is telling the medical team not to employ any of those methods. He leaves this stuff up to them and he'll be the first to tell you he's not qualified to make those decisions.

plus one dope interpreting and writing equals this kind of garbage.
It happens every summer.

LAST YEAR.

Even Mara said they were behind with training and strength and condition but he has invested money recently into fixing the issue. Why the hell are some acting like this is new info about Coughlin in this thread and something unreasonable.

There have been threads calling for Ronnie Barnes and Jerry Palmieri's heads.

Thurmond talks like his troubles just started in 2014........

Maybe Seattle Washington let players use certain "medicinals."

the Strength and Conditioning Coach has been with TC since Boston College so it is doubtful there are getting much modern strength and conditioning techniques

Have been a problem, period.

From the link below on Adjusted Games Lost (AGL):

"Then we have the Giants, looking to put together an injury dynasty. After setting the benchmark with 141.3 AGL in 2013, the 2014 club has the second-worst AGL on record at 137.1. Running back and defensive back remained two major problem areas despite new roster additions, but wide receiver was also hit hard, as were the linebackers."
Football Outsiders - ( New Window )

In comment 12348778 barens said:

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In comment 12348568 Eric from BBI said: Quote: Parcells was pretty old school, right? We didn't seem to have these issues when we were "old fashioned". Parcells teams didn't seem to get as many injuries as other teams across the league from what I remember.

Two completely different eras, you can't compare the two. Pro sports has changed a ton in 15-20 years.

Simply, what Thurmond said doesn't bother me either way and I don't know if it is true or not.

All I do know is that the injury history with this team needs to be red flagged more than any position that we talk about ad nauseum on BBI. The injury history here and number of guys out on a week to week basis and over the course of the season is by far a bigger impact than any one guy being injured or us being weak at one position.

hard to know what he means by this in anything but a broad sense, so I think it's difficult to really accept or discount his opinion since it isn't very clear beyond a very vague notion that Coughlin is more old school in his approach than Kelly. Maybe there is something here, maybe not.

In comment 12348566 Joe in Cambridge said:

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In comment 12348558 UConn4523 said: Quote: means to Thurmond. I didn't clink the link so maybe it's there, but there's an entire staff in place. Hard to believe 1 guy, HC or not, would be able to completely change the medical culture of a team. Seems like a bitter jab and nothing more. Coughlin is the head coach. I would be surprised if he didn't have that kind of power. He picks the staff. Who's going to tell him no?

That would mean TC is overriding medical advice and treatment. Yeah, I don't buy that.

In comment 12349247 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 12348566 Joe in Cambridge said: Quote: In comment 12348558 UConn4523 said: Quote: means to Thurmond. I didn't clink the link so maybe it's there, but there's an entire staff in place. Hard to believe 1 guy, HC or not, would be able to completely change the medical culture of a team. Seems like a bitter jab and nothing more. Coughlin is the head coach. I would be surprised if he didn't have that kind of power. He picks the staff. Who's going to tell him no? That would mean TC is overriding medical advice and treatment. Yeah, I don't buy that.

Sports science is about how they train, diet and recover. Not how they treat injuries

Saying TC is not as on the cutting edge as Chip in this is probably the biggest "no shit" statement you could make.

That is not necessarily a bad thing, time will tell if Chips's methods have merit and become standard or gets passed over like many fads before it.

In comment 12349247 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 12348566 Joe in Cambridge said: Quote: In comment 12348558 UConn4523 said: Quote: means to Thurmond. I didn't clink the link so maybe it's there, but there's an entire staff in place. Hard to believe 1 guy, HC or not, would be able to completely change the medical culture of a team. Seems like a bitter jab and nothing more. Coughlin is the head coach. I would be surprised if he didn't have that kind of power. He picks the staff. Who's going to tell him no? That would mean TC is overriding medical advice and treatment. Yeah, I don't buy that.

???? Coughlin is the Head Coach and both the Strength and Conditioning Coach and Team Trainers fall under positions that he is responsible for managing. Any new treatments, exercises and training have to be reviewed and approved by the head coach not the other way around.

Why is new info on a football forum?

Tom Coughlin probably doesn't believe in using modern medicine as an excuse for under performing. If you aren't tough enough to survive practice, what happens during the regular season?
He probably wouldn't be too happy about cutting practice shorter while trying to install a new offense or getting a number of new players on defense on the right page. The CBA reduced the amount of time and quality of practices prior to the start of the season and it hasn't helped players stay healthy.

That is the question to be answered.

mean there are no changes. These. Guys done read or consult? Are they doing this coaching and strength training on a remote island? Anyone can read about or consult with specialists on new methods and techniques for anything. It is not that hard to do or learn about.

pilates, yoga or zumba. I think that is what he means.