Serviceable might be selling short, though. there are many knowledgeable basketball people who feel he is a star in the making. Will he be a star in year 1? Probably not. But, how many are. he certainly sounds like a guy they can build with to win while Anthony is still here.
so you are banking on your lottery Euro being at best a servicable guy.
huh? Why restrict it to the lottery? Considering so few are drafted in the lottery (especially the high lottery) it's a completely arbitrary end point.
I hear you and don't completely disagree. But, with so many people talking him up, and this goes back to before the draft, I feel a lot better. This isn't Frederic Weiss. This is a much more talented and polished player who actually played against decent competition. The point is, I don't think Phil views this pick as a reach and neither do a lot of other people.
and cringe when there are actually analysts that made that comment.
My take would just be that if you were looking for a big Euro who could pass well and have a decent perimeter shot, then those guys exist at pick 34. If you are drafting on potential, hell, Winslow has the potential to be a future HOF. He also has a potential to be a bust.
I guess what I'd say based on history is that even the top Euro's potential seems to top out at decent, reliable, complementary player.
But the stereotyping and profiling of euro prospects is just so silly. They are where black qbs were post Warren Moon and pre Mcnabb from a perception standpoint. And it's really silly, because there have been a ton of European impact players and several all stars. People want to make a big deal about the recent drought of euro lotto prospects becoming all stars (even though several non lotto euro prospects have made all star games in that time, and several more are on their way), but that has nothing whatsoever to do with each individual case. Sometimes things just happen randomly. Duke had a run of iffy prospects, then things changed a bit. Jeff tedford qbs sucked, then came Aaron Rodgers. And the book is not out yet on some of those lotto picks who haven't been all stars
Especially when these guys are in the NBA currently
Dirk, Parker, Ibaka (African I get it), Gortat, Gobert, Pau and Marc Gasol, Dragic, Mirotic, Greek Freak, Vucevic (yes played some college ball), Batum, Gallo etc etc. There are dozens of international players in the NBA who are having/will have better careers than most of the lotto picks.
does a player being picked in the lottery have to do with anything? Do we suddenly throw out a guy like Dragic (a top 10 NBA PG because he "wasn't lottery"? Ibaka? Koufas? Pekovic? Mirotic? Fournier? Greek Freak doesn't count because he went 15th?
as you see, there aren't enough Euro's to make a statistically significant estimate to say that the odds are against them being stars. Why look only at the lottery? You can't say "oh, if we pick him in the lottery, he has a worse chance of being a star". That throws everything about scouting out the window.
We can't use examples like Giannis or Kanter or Gobert yet to say they are All-star caliber players yet, so that creates a biased argument against KP becoming a star. All 3 of those guys are below 23 and are nowhere close to their respective ceilings. Gobert can become a perennial All-Defensive player candidate, Kanter has flashed signs of being a 20 and 10 guy, and Giannis has all the makings of being a transcendent player.
silly to just lump in "euros" it's like saying a guy playing well in AA at 19 is the same as a guy playing well in indy ball. Not all "euro leagues" are the same level of play.
does a player being picked in the lottery have to do with anything? Do we suddenly throw out a guy like Dragic (a top 10 NBA PG because he "wasn't lottery"? Ibaka? Koufas? Pekovic? Mirotic? Fournier? Greek Freak doesn't count because he went 15th?
That's what I'm saying. So should all the times let KP slide so he had a better shot of becoming good if he went 11 picks later? Fuck no. Dumbass argument.
is that it doesnt take into consideration strength of the prospect. I'll grant you that there was a time more than a decade ago that Euros were getting overdrafted -- notably it was the same era as prep-to-pros going high too.
But in the last 10 years you've had one Euro taken in the top 2 picks -- Bargs. Aldridge turned out better, but the bigger issue is that it was a HORRIFIC top of the draft. Kanter was a #3 pick, again in a weak draft, and I'd rather have him that Thompson, Knight, Kemba or Jimmer -- the next American players to go. The top 3 -- that's where superstars tend to come from.
So what should the Knicks have done? The next picks were another Euro (Hezonja), non-superstar potential guy WCS, and Mudiay (great Chinese league track record?). Stanimal is going to be a superstar? Frank the Tank? Everyone's in love with Justice Winslow. Except the 9 GMs who passed on him.
So we should have skipped over the 4th best prospect because people from the continent he comes from who get picked much lower and/or in crappy drafts have not been all around superstars? For guys like the #10 pick. Got it.
is that it doesnt take into consideration strength of the prospect. I'll grant you that there was a time more than a decade ago that Euros were getting overdrafted -- notably it was the same era as prep-to-pros going high too.
But in the last 10 years you've had one Euro taken in the top 2 picks -- Bargs. Aldridge turned out better, but the bigger issue is that it was a HORRIFIC top of the draft. Kanter was a #3 pick, again in a weak draft, and I'd rather have him that Thompson, Knight, Kemba or Jimmer -- the next American players to go. The top 3 -- that's where superstars tend to come from.
So what should the Knicks have done? The next picks were another Euro (Hezonja), non-superstar potential guy WCS, and Mudiay (great Chinese league track record?). Stanimal is going to be a superstar? Frank the Tank? Everyone's in love with Justice Winslow. Except the 9 GMs who passed on him.
So we should have skipped over the 4th best prospect because people from the continent he comes from who get picked much lower and/or in crappy drafts have not been all around superstars? For guys like the #10 pick. Got it.
This is a MAJOR issue I have with people who hated the pick. I wanted Mudiay the most (because I strongly feel we need an upgrade at PG and I think the FA market is pathetic). I didn't expect to pick up grant and I had Zinger as my #2 want. All of that said... who did we pass on that makes gambling on a 7'3 kid with 3 point range, who can run, who loves the game etc etc the wrong move? I didn't even love Okafor and yet, if the Knicks passed on an Okafor or a Russell... I would understand the outrage. Mudiay has many of the same concerns (though I think odds are he has a better rookie season than Zinger). The Knicks took the BPA and they should be commended.
Why is Miami being crowned the winner of this draft? I don't think personally that Winslow is better than Frank or Stanley, but it should say something that even with the choice between Stanley and Winslow, Stan van gundy still chose Winslow over him, and Charlotte did not only pass on a 6 pick offer for their pick, they went with Frank over Winslow. The Magic chose Hezonja over Winslow and Denver, a team that its in a perfect position to take BPA, went with Mudiay over Winslow as well. So there were 5 teams that were given the opportunity to take the best guy on the board, and each of the 5 teams passed up on him.
Everyone assumes that Miami gets the best out of their drafted rookies, but since Wade, how many of these guys succeeded? Beasley? Chalmers? Cole. I'd wait before we call Winslow a "steal"
Porzingas could be a true difference maker. Virtually none of the guys taken after him have that kind of potential. The worst thing an NBA team can be is reliably decent, in 48 win purgatory.
I wasn't in favor of the pick at the time, but I'm warming up to it.
One reason is, I've seen how quick he is inside dunking over players. Another is that he already has a quick release on his jump shot. At 230, he can put on 10-15 pounds fairly soon and earn some playing time. He does need more weight to play major minutes, but he should be able to contribute at some point in this season.
RE: I'd rather gamble on greatness than take a safer, lower ceiling guy
Porzingas could be a true difference maker. Virtually none of the guys taken after him have that kind of potential. The worst thing an NBA team can be is reliably decent, in 48 win purgatory.
This. The other gambles on greatness were the next two picks -- a Euro and a kid who barely played in China last year.
Is anyone inside the league criticizing the pick? You hear fans (who essentially dont know the player) and media members (same, and particularly biased to not cover rebuilding teams). But has any talent evaluator said "he aint it"? I
person I hear trash KP was Dan Dakich, who coached half a year at IU as an interim coach and bowling green for 10 years. He said that KP doesn't "have good eyes", and that he can tell who is going to be a good player by how "good their eyes are". Don't know if I buy that as a scouting report.
person I hear trash KP was Dan Dakich, who coached half a year at IU as an interim coach and bowling green for 10 years. He said that KP doesn't "have good eyes", and that he can tell who is going to be a good player by how "good their eyes are". Don't know if I buy that as a scouting report.
RealGM @RealGM 21m21 minutes ago
Derrick Williams To Receive Interest From Kings, Wizards, Rockets, Lakers, Heat, Suns, Knicks
Michael Scotto @MikeAScotto 28m28 minutes ago
Source: Knicks have some interest in Paul Millsap, but his possible price range of $17-19 million per season would be too high for New York.
doesn't that mean we could technically add a second, near max contract? Not that I see another player worthy of giving it to, unless of course it's deandre and Monroe, which negates the whole deandre a s a second option selling point.
If Afflalo could dumb down his demands to $8-10 million we could squeeze koufos in there for around $6-7 million. I'm afraid koufos will get offered more than that, however, and I'd priortize him over Afflalo. I'd let the market play out for Afflalo as I'd be truly astonished if he got more than $10 million by another team. Portland possibly gives him that, but what other team is going to come up with an offer like that?
doesn't that mean we could technically add a second, near max contract? Not that I see another player worthy of giving it to, unless of course it's deandre and Monroe, which negates the whole deandre a s a second option selling point.
Berger didn't mention it, but the cap increase would also increase the max contract amounts. So I don't think it gives them the ability to sign a second mac player.
Monroe and Knicks deal could get done quickly according to what he is hearing...
If that's true, it tells me that Phil already has a trade lined up for Calderon if need be. Why bother meeting with Jordan and Aldridge if he already knows he is going to be giving more than half of the cap room to Monroe? Can't sign 2 of those players unless Calderon is moved.
Monroe and Knicks deal could get done quickly according to what he is hearing...
If that's true, it tells me that Phil already has a trade lined up for Calderon if need be. Why bother meeting with Jordan and Aldridge if he already knows he is going to be giving more than half of the cap room to Monroe? Can't sign 2 of those players unless Calderon is moved.
Or he has been told he has no chance at Aldridge or Jordan
would be an insane front court. DJ, Monroe, Melo.....holy hell, how do you stop that. I could play SG and we'd make the playoffs. Keep in mind I was my 7/8th grade basketball camp defensive MVP.
person I hear trash KP was Dan Dakich, who coached half a year at IU as an interim coach and bowling green for 10 years. He said that KP doesn't "have good eyes", and that he can tell who is going to be a good player by how "good their eyes are". Don't know if I buy that as a scouting report.
I heard the same. That he lacks court awareness. When he drives to the basket he looks down to the floor. Hopefully it's coachable. Only time will tell.
huh? Why restrict it to the lottery? Considering so few are drafted in the lottery (especially the high lottery) it's a completely arbitrary end point.
I guess the old adage is there that "we are due", but I sure would have been more confident with a different pick there if I'm the Knicks.
My take would just be that if you were looking for a big Euro who could pass well and have a decent perimeter shot, then those guys exist at pick 34. If you are drafting on potential, hell, Winslow has the potential to be a future HOF. He also has a potential to be a bust.
I guess what I'd say based on history is that even the top Euro's potential seems to top out at decent, reliable, complementary player.
Especially when these guys are in the NBA currently
Dirk, Parker, Ibaka (African I get it), Gortat, Gobert, Pau and Marc Gasol, Dragic, Mirotic, Greek Freak, Vucevic (yes played some college ball), Batum, Gallo etc etc. There are dozens of international players in the NBA who are having/will have better careers than most of the lotto picks.
2011 NBA Lottery:
Euros: kanter, JV, Vesley Busts: Vesley Bust Rate: 33%
American Busts: Fredette, Williams Bust Rate: 20%
2010 NBA Lottery:
Euros: None Bust rate: N/A
American Busts: Turner, Johnson, Udoh, Aminu, Aldrich, Henry
Bust Rate: 50%
2009 NBA lottery:
Euros: Rubio Bust Rate: Depends on your perception of Rubio
American Busts: Thabeet, Flynn, Hill, T Williams, Hansbrough, Henderson, Clark
Bust Rate: 46%
2008 NBA Draft Lottery:
Euros: Gallo Busts: none Bust Rate: 0%
American Busts: Alexander, Beasley, Mayo, Augustin, Bayless, Thompson, Rush, Randolph
Bust Rate: 62%
We can't use examples like Giannis or Kanter or Gobert yet to say they are All-star caliber players yet, so that creates a biased argument against KP becoming a star. All 3 of those guys are below 23 and are nowhere close to their respective ceilings. Gobert can become a perennial All-Defensive player candidate, Kanter has flashed signs of being a 20 and 10 guy, and Giannis has all the makings of being a transcendent player.
That's what I'm saying. So should all the times let KP slide so he had a better shot of becoming good if he went 11 picks later? Fuck no. Dumbass argument.
But in the last 10 years you've had one Euro taken in the top 2 picks -- Bargs. Aldridge turned out better, but the bigger issue is that it was a HORRIFIC top of the draft. Kanter was a #3 pick, again in a weak draft, and I'd rather have him that Thompson, Knight, Kemba or Jimmer -- the next American players to go. The top 3 -- that's where superstars tend to come from.
So what should the Knicks have done? The next picks were another Euro (Hezonja), non-superstar potential guy WCS, and Mudiay (great Chinese league track record?). Stanimal is going to be a superstar? Frank the Tank? Everyone's in love with Justice Winslow. Except the 9 GMs who passed on him.
So we should have skipped over the 4th best prospect because people from the continent he comes from who get picked much lower and/or in crappy drafts have not been all around superstars? For guys like the #10 pick. Got it.
But in the last 10 years you've had one Euro taken in the top 2 picks -- Bargs. Aldridge turned out better, but the bigger issue is that it was a HORRIFIC top of the draft. Kanter was a #3 pick, again in a weak draft, and I'd rather have him that Thompson, Knight, Kemba or Jimmer -- the next American players to go. The top 3 -- that's where superstars tend to come from.
So what should the Knicks have done? The next picks were another Euro (Hezonja), non-superstar potential guy WCS, and Mudiay (great Chinese league track record?). Stanimal is going to be a superstar? Frank the Tank? Everyone's in love with Justice Winslow. Except the 9 GMs who passed on him.
So we should have skipped over the 4th best prospect because people from the continent he comes from who get picked much lower and/or in crappy drafts have not been all around superstars? For guys like the #10 pick. Got it.
This is a MAJOR issue I have with people who hated the pick. I wanted Mudiay the most (because I strongly feel we need an upgrade at PG and I think the FA market is pathetic). I didn't expect to pick up grant and I had Zinger as my #2 want. All of that said... who did we pass on that makes gambling on a 7'3 kid with 3 point range, who can run, who loves the game etc etc the wrong move? I didn't even love Okafor and yet, if the Knicks passed on an Okafor or a Russell... I would understand the outrage. Mudiay has many of the same concerns (though I think odds are he has a better rookie season than Zinger). The Knicks took the BPA and they should be commended.
Everyone assumes that Miami gets the best out of their drafted rookies, but since Wade, how many of these guys succeeded? Beasley? Chalmers? Cole. I'd wait before we call Winslow a "steal"
This. The other gambles on greatness were the next two picks -- a Euro and a kid who barely played in China last year.
Is anyone inside the league criticizing the pick? You hear fans (who essentially dont know the player) and media members (same, and particularly biased to not cover rebuilding teams). But has any talent evaluator said "he aint it"? I
What are you hoping for? That's a best case scenario roster for 2015-16.
What about Bob Whitfield?
Derrick Williams To Receive Interest From Kings, Wizards, Rockets, Lakers, Heat, Suns, Knicks
Michael Scotto @MikeAScotto 28m28 minutes ago
Source: Knicks have some interest in Paul Millsap, but his possible price range of $17-19 million per season would be too high for New York.
Berger didn't mention it, but the cap increase would also increase the max contract amounts. So I don't think it gives them the ability to sign a second mac player.
This is what it looks like
Yahoo Sources: Kawhi Leonard, Spurs agree to framework of a maximum contract extension.
Yahoo Sources: Kawhi Leonard, Spurs agree to framework of a maximum contract extension.
If that's true, it tells me that Phil already has a trade lined up for Calderon if need be. Why bother meeting with Jordan and Aldridge if he already knows he is going to be giving more than half of the cap room to Monroe? Can't sign 2 of those players unless Calderon is moved.
Quote:
Monroe and Knicks deal could get done quickly according to what he is hearing...
If that's true, it tells me that Phil already has a trade lined up for Calderon if need be. Why bother meeting with Jordan and Aldridge if he already knows he is going to be giving more than half of the cap room to Monroe? Can't sign 2 of those players unless Calderon is moved.
Or he has been told he has no chance at Aldridge or Jordan
As @SpearsNBAYahoo noted, Rajon Rondo is not on the Knicks wish list, sources confirm.
As @SpearsNBAYahoo noted, Rajon Rondo is not on the Knicks wish list, sources confirm.
Phil is sitting on a B+ offseason at worst cuz of that.
I heard the same. That he lacks court awareness. When he drives to the basket he looks down to the floor. Hopefully it's coachable. Only time will tell.
Big numbers flying around!
Big numbers flying around!
Wasn't expecting it for that tier of player though. Meh.