interview all the beat writer for the division teams. I agree, I don't think much of our pass rush, but I do think we will blitz a lot more and can try to create pressure that way.
I do think they are underestimating the impact Spags could have on our defense. Even if our blitz fail to get home, it least we can promise that we won't sit back and give teams all day. We will blitz, that's a given, now it's up to the teams to see if they can account for our players.
the kid can rush the passer. He was young and immature but he could blossom under Spags. When you have two ends that can rush plus Ayers inside on 3rd downs it makes a huge difference cause you can only double one guy.
I can see us with 50 sacks if we stay healthy and the youth improves. So many pass attempts in today's NFL.
Some strong words about Spags from the Washington guy Â
"I can’t imagine Spagnuolo will change the way the Giants' defense is viewed. I remember talking to people about him earlier this offseason and they were well aware of the talent he had the first time around -- and what he hasn’t done since leaving the Giants."
Basically made it sounds like it was all the talent before and Spags was a non-factor.
RE: Some strong words about Spags from the Washington guy Â
"I can’t imagine Spagnuolo will change the way the Giants' defense is viewed. I remember talking to people about him earlier this offseason and they were well aware of the talent he had the first time around -- and what he hasn’t done since leaving the Giants."
Basically made it sounds like it was all the talent before and Spags was a non-factor.
Hard to argue with the assessment given Spags performance since 2009?
JPP is as good as anyone but the X factor for the Giants is Hankins. With a guy who can not just push the pocket but make sacks as well it makes the DEs much more effective. also, Ayers rushed the passer well last year and Moore and Wynn have upsides as well. There is enough pass rushing talent overall for the pass rush to be a significant factor. And weren't the Giants one of the better pass rushing teams last year? It's one thing I'm not worried about really.
i think we've all discussed this here on the mssg board before but if u really study spags career since he left, he's only been a Defensive Coordinator for 1 year - the post-BountyGate year for the Saints. the entire organization tanked it that year.
sure, he failed as a head coach but that is not the job he has been hired to do here and, quite frankly, this is not the St.Louis Rams. he did a bang up job with the Ravens secondary last year, getting several inexperienced players on the field quickly not getting exposed (remember geoff pope)
now i love the guy and believe he will be a massive upgrade to fewell so its easy to defend him but i think its lazy to dismiss him as a DC based on what happened post-Giants.
1. JPP should be more respected around here for his pass rush. Today there was an article linked in Defenderdawg's thread about five guys you could build a team around in the NFL, and one of them was Tyron Smith. Nice to see the Dallas beat reporter confirm that JPP has given him trouble in pass protection. That, and the other comments make a strong case IMO that BBIers don't know what a good thing we've got - regularly dismissing JPP's contributions as though he's just a run-of-the-mill DE.
2. Inspiring fear in opponents is something that has been earned. Nobody feared Osi or Tuck in their first year or two in the league either. It just takes a few years to earn the reputation as a top pass rusher. Ten years from now and people might be crediting Damontre and OO with a resurgence in the Giants pass rush instead of Spags again.
JPP can't afford anything but a top-notch performance. Â
DaMonster, Wynn, Ayers, Owa, Jenkins and Hankins...
Not to mention Kennard, Collins, etc.
Add in Spags' known ability to bring pressure and I have high expectations from this line.
I have the opposite expectations. For me, it's a wait and see. I want to see how these guys develop. If the DL is to do well, JPP needs to play at a very high level. Perhaps creative blitzes may add to the DLs efficiency. but if we are just talking front 4, then I don't have high expectations for them. I think the potential could be there, but still I need to see a lot more from them to be comfortable with them game in and game out.
I'm not sure a trio with Wynn, OO and Moore and maybe resign Ayers might not be pretty effective. I want to keep JPP but if he goes I'm not going to think it's the end of the world.
rush always makes me cringe. I'm glad the conversation has FINALLY shifted from how feared it is to how how much the Giants miss that piece of their arsenal.
Games are not played on paper and conjecture.... Â
As for the defensive line, we really have just two starters....let's look at them.....
JPP....would anyone accept the same type of year he had last year? If you do, then this line is in trouble......what did he do during that 7 game losing streak? We all know that most of his sacks came at the end of the season, against less than stellar opposition....how many times did qb's and rb's make big plays around his end, because he sold out inside? If he does not sign a contract, think he will play cautiously, like he did last year, to avoid injury and look attractive to another team? He could have another "statistical" year, and not be the force we need him to be....
Hankins? Had a solid year last year.....can he do it again? All we have is one season to really evaluate him.....he still needs to take that next step to the next level...if he doesn't, it doesn't give the OL much to worry about....the rest of the DLmen, are basically backup material or wannabees.....who will be the other DE taking most of the snaps?
So why should the NFC East fear the Giants?
The only answer can be Spags.....
He will have to come up with schemes to confuse the offense......he has to place the right guys in his schemes, that can be most effective....
But Spags has a major problem....he just doesn't have the horses....He has a weak linebacker corps... I think Beason is overrated by BBI.....he is an average linebacker....BBI is enamored by him, because he made plays an average linebacker should make.....when compared to the other linebackers the Giants had 2 years ago, is it any wonder? And Beason is a huge question mark, if he can play a full season.....
Whether one of these linebackers can step up and be an effective pass rusher remains to be seen....
But it doesn't mean that it can't happen....maybe Kennard will stay healthy and flourish under Spags...maybe the schemes Spags uses will eliminate the usual 7 guys blocking 4, giving qb's all day to pass....
The real key to the pass rush is Hankins and JPP....they have to have big years....and someone has to come out of nowhere, and have a big year, like possibly Moore....Ellis has to be effective....he must stuff the run, and he needs to stay out on the field, because Bromley, Kuhn, Jenkins, etc. are not the answers....
This defense will be a work in progress.....If guys don't grasp it right away, and our OL does not pan out, the season could be over by the bye....
But if the OL gives Eli time, and the offense can put enough points on the board, this might compensate for the growing pains of the defense......Collins has to look like he has played for years out there.....that second Safety has to really step up....Our corners are our strength, and have to remain healthy....there are a lot of question marks on defense, and it remains to be seen if Spags has the answers....
The preseason should give us some insight into the season for the Giants.....it can't come soon enough....
I like the depth that we have on the DL this year Â
i think we've all discussed this here on the mssg board before but if u really study spags career since he left, he's only been a Defensive Coordinator for 1 year - the post-BountyGate year for the Saints. the entire organization tanked it that year.
sure, he failed as a head coach but that is not the job he has been hired to do here and, quite frankly, this is not the St.Louis Rams. he did a bang up job with the Ravens secondary last year, getting several inexperienced players on the field quickly not getting exposed (remember geoff pope)
now i love the guy and believe he will be a massive upgrade to fewell so its easy to defend him but i think its lazy to dismiss him as a DC based on what happened post-Giants.
IMO, it is a very lazy/shallow analysis to simply point to defensive ranking for places he coached at after leaving here. The man can coach I'm excited to have him back in blue.
"I can’t imagine Spagnuolo will change the way the Giants' defense is viewed. I remember talking to people about him earlier this offseason and they were well aware of the talent he had the first time around -- and what he hasn’t done since leaving the Giants."
Basically made it sounds like it was all the talent before and Spags was a non-factor.
Hard to argue with the assessment given Spags performance since 2009?
If it were that simple then Tim Lewis would never have been fired.
I think the only Giant feared on the entire team is OBJ Â
...Tim Lewis might have been a head coach before Steve Spagnuolo. Never been a big fan of Lewis, but his record with a healthy Michael Strahan was better than Spagnuolo's.
Point is, it's impossible to separate talent from coaching. In the end, these guys are what their record says they are. Spagnuolo's record is decidedly mixed. His second stint here will go long way toward determining whether he is remembered as an outstanding defensive mind or just another up-jumped position coach.
Teams feared Strahan, Osi, Tuck, and for a time, even Kiwi Â
That Spags was the DC seems somewhat irrelevant. That's not to say Spags is no factor, but even Barry Switzer coached the team Jimmy Johnson built team to a SB. It's nice that Spags is back, but he isn't loaded with talented pass rushers he had then. So I'd assume he play to whatever he feels is strengths are.
JPP is going to be double teamed until someone else on the DL makes teams PAY for double-teaming JPP. Who is that someone? Moore? Odigi? Those two seem to have the most potential, but how soon will they be guys teams have to worry about.
on the Giants defense this year somebody always mentions that he failed in St Louis as a head coach, what has that got to do with his ability to coach the Giants defense successfully....
I too am taking a wait and see approach on our Defense Â
Spags had a lot more talent last time around (as pointed out by the Washington guy). Also if he does blitz a lot, and it doesn't get home, then we will get destroyed. That is the worst case scenario, worse than not blitzing at all.
RE: I too am taking a wait and see approach on our Defense Â
Spags had a lot more talent last time around (as pointed out by the Washington guy). Also if he does blitz a lot, and it doesn't get home, then we will get destroyed. That is the worst case scenario, worse than not blitzing at all.
Without question, Spags had top level talent on the DL in both 2007 and 2008. I believe if Strahan had come back in 2008 and played at a high level he alone could have given this defense enough to rise above anyone (Plax's shot notwithstanding).
However, I do believe there is some solid potential with out DL this year. I think the starting DL could very well be:
Wynn-Hankins-Ellis-JPP on 1st and 2nd downs with DT Ayers and DE Moore replacing Ellis & Wynn, respectively, on passing downs. We'll be rotating a lot and there is youth with upside in Moore, Bromley and Wynn.
I also think Kennard and Thomas can blitz from all over and cause havoc.
But if the DL doesn't generate pressure I suspect our young, inexperienced safeties will get beat up a lot until they learn and hold their own. It sucks that our bye week is so late in the year as we could use it around week 5 to adjust and breathe.
I do think they are underestimating the impact Spags could have on our defense. Even if our blitz fail to get home, it least we can promise that we won't sit back and give teams all day. We will blitz, that's a given, now it's up to the teams to see if they can account for our players.
I can see us with 50 sacks if we stay healthy and the youth improves. So many pass attempts in today's NFL.
Basically made it sounds like it was all the talent before and Spags was a non-factor.
Basically made it sounds like it was all the talent before and Spags was a non-factor.
I certainly expect more pressure with Spags as the D-coordinator, but "fear" is not a word that comes to anyone's mind.
sure, he failed as a head coach but that is not the job he has been hired to do here and, quite frankly, this is not the St.Louis Rams. he did a bang up job with the Ravens secondary last year, getting several inexperienced players on the field quickly not getting exposed (remember geoff pope)
now i love the guy and believe he will be a massive upgrade to fewell so its easy to defend him but i think its lazy to dismiss him as a DC based on what happened post-Giants.
A couple of things:
1. JPP should be more respected around here for his pass rush. Today there was an article linked in Defenderdawg's thread about five guys you could build a team around in the NFL, and one of them was Tyron Smith. Nice to see the Dallas beat reporter confirm that JPP has given him trouble in pass protection. That, and the other comments make a strong case IMO that BBIers don't know what a good thing we've got - regularly dismissing JPP's contributions as though he's just a run-of-the-mill DE.
2. Inspiring fear in opponents is something that has been earned. Nobody feared Osi or Tuck in their first year or two in the league either. It just takes a few years to earn the reputation as a top pass rusher. Ten years from now and people might be crediting Damontre and OO with a resurgence in the Giants pass rush instead of Spags again.
Not to mention Kennard, Collins, etc.
Add in Spags' known ability to bring pressure and I have high expectations from this line.
that's what next year is shaping up to be.
that's what next year is shaping up to be.
Not to mention Kennard, Collins, etc.
Add in Spags' known ability to bring pressure and I have high expectations from this line.
I have the opposite expectations. For me, it's a wait and see. I want to see how these guys develop. If the DL is to do well, JPP needs to play at a very high level. Perhaps creative blitzes may add to the DLs efficiency. but if we are just talking front 4, then I don't have high expectations for them. I think the potential could be there, but still I need to see a lot more from them to be comfortable with them game in and game out.
Odi will be a instant force as an inside pass rusher. Moore is awful vs the run but is very good as a situational pass rusher.
The difference will be Odi. He'll change the entire defense and give us an elite pass rush by doing quality work from inside.
I did like the comments about Trent Williams. Writer said
He should respect him. JPP has kicked his ass since day one.
that's what next year is shaping up to be.
I'm not sure a trio with Wynn, OO and Moore and maybe resign Ayers might not be pretty effective. I want to keep JPP but if he goes I'm not going to think it's the end of the world.
Odi will be a instant force as an inside pass rusher. Moore is awful vs the run but is very good as a situational pass rusher.
The difference will be Odi. He'll change the entire defense and give us an elite pass rush by doing quality work from inside.
I did like the comments about Trent Williams. Writer said
Quote:
"I know left tackle Trent Williams greatly respects Pierre-Paul."
He should respect him. JPP has kicked his ass since day one.
As for the defensive line, we really have just two starters....let's look at them.....
JPP....would anyone accept the same type of year he had last year? If you do, then this line is in trouble......what did he do during that 7 game losing streak? We all know that most of his sacks came at the end of the season, against less than stellar opposition....how many times did qb's and rb's make big plays around his end, because he sold out inside? If he does not sign a contract, think he will play cautiously, like he did last year, to avoid injury and look attractive to another team? He could have another "statistical" year, and not be the force we need him to be....
Hankins? Had a solid year last year.....can he do it again? All we have is one season to really evaluate him.....he still needs to take that next step to the next level...if he doesn't, it doesn't give the OL much to worry about....the rest of the DLmen, are basically backup material or wannabees.....who will be the other DE taking most of the snaps?
So why should the NFC East fear the Giants?
The only answer can be Spags.....
He will have to come up with schemes to confuse the offense......he has to place the right guys in his schemes, that can be most effective....
But Spags has a major problem....he just doesn't have the horses....He has a weak linebacker corps... I think Beason is overrated by BBI.....he is an average linebacker....BBI is enamored by him, because he made plays an average linebacker should make.....when compared to the other linebackers the Giants had 2 years ago, is it any wonder? And Beason is a huge question mark, if he can play a full season.....
Whether one of these linebackers can step up and be an effective pass rusher remains to be seen....
But it doesn't mean that it can't happen....maybe Kennard will stay healthy and flourish under Spags...maybe the schemes Spags uses will eliminate the usual 7 guys blocking 4, giving qb's all day to pass....
The real key to the pass rush is Hankins and JPP....they have to have big years....and someone has to come out of nowhere, and have a big year, like possibly Moore....Ellis has to be effective....he must stuff the run, and he needs to stay out on the field, because Bromley, Kuhn, Jenkins, etc. are not the answers....
This defense will be a work in progress.....If guys don't grasp it right away, and our OL does not pan out, the season could be over by the bye....
But if the OL gives Eli time, and the offense can put enough points on the board, this might compensate for the growing pains of the defense......Collins has to look like he has played for years out there.....that second Safety has to really step up....Our corners are our strength, and have to remain healthy....there are a lot of question marks on defense, and it remains to be seen if Spags has the answers....
The preseason should give us some insight into the season for the Giants.....it can't come soon enough....
Ayers - Showed last year that he can get after the QB.
Moore - Has legit potential to be a pass rush specialist at worst. Did so all throughout college and in limited time in the NFL.
OO - Oozes potential. Looks and sounds like a Tuck clone that can hold his own against the run as well as rush the passer.
Selvie - Solid against the run. 7 sacks 2 years ago.
Hankins - If he builds on last year, hes a sure-fire Pro Bowler. If he doesnt and stays the same, hes a VERY solid player.
Jenkins - Old vet who can still rush the passer if he has anything left in the tank.
Ellis - Huge body. Great against the run. Contract year and first full year with more PT.
Bromley - Added muscle and experience. Could be a nice pass rusher at DT if Hank gets doubled.
sure, he failed as a head coach but that is not the job he has been hired to do here and, quite frankly, this is not the St.Louis Rams. he did a bang up job with the Ravens secondary last year, getting several inexperienced players on the field quickly not getting exposed (remember geoff pope)
now i love the guy and believe he will be a massive upgrade to fewell so its easy to defend him but i think its lazy to dismiss him as a DC based on what happened post-Giants.
Quote:
"I can’t imagine Spagnuolo will change the way the Giants' defense is viewed. I remember talking to people about him earlier this offseason and they were well aware of the talent he had the first time around -- and what he hasn’t done since leaving the Giants."
Basically made it sounds like it was all the talent before and Spags was a non-factor.
Hard to argue with the assessment given Spags performance since 2009?
If it were that simple then Tim Lewis would never have been fired.
Point is, it's impossible to separate talent from coaching. In the end, these guys are what their record says they are. Spagnuolo's record is decidedly mixed. His second stint here will go long way toward determining whether he is remembered as an outstanding defensive mind or just another up-jumped position coach.
JPP is going to be double teamed until someone else on the DL makes teams PAY for double-teaming JPP. Who is that someone? Moore? Odigi? Those two seem to have the most potential, but how soon will they be guys teams have to worry about.
However, I do believe there is some solid potential with out DL this year. I think the starting DL could very well be:
Wynn-Hankins-Ellis-JPP on 1st and 2nd downs with DT Ayers and DE Moore replacing Ellis & Wynn, respectively, on passing downs. We'll be rotating a lot and there is youth with upside in Moore, Bromley and Wynn.
I also think Kennard and Thomas can blitz from all over and cause havoc.
But if the DL doesn't generate pressure I suspect our young, inexperienced safeties will get beat up a lot until they learn and hold their own. It sucks that our bye week is so late in the year as we could use it around week 5 to adjust and breathe.