But let's try this one on for size - Jamaicans are limited to a maximum wage of $20 per month, true or false? The money you give to a vendor on the beach is entirely confiscated by by the Jamaican government, true or false? A poor Jamaican would be arrested for raising his own chickens to suppliment his diet, true or false?
But seriously, we waged war for years against Japan, Germany, Vietnam, Cold War and hot wars via proxies vs. China, Russia. But we have diplomatic and economic relations with all except for Cuba? Please. Whatever Chairman O's motives, it's the inevitable end of a stupid and obviously failed policy. The Castros have outlasted 11 Presidencies, and outlived 6 Presidents (Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Reagan). Hopefully things change for the better for the average Cuban who suffers most. Our policy hasn't helped them at all has it?
it's that it shouldn't have been handled as a diplomatic amateur hour and we should have something to show for handing Havana their biggest propaganda coup in a half-century. Fugitives, concessions on human rights, something that suggested this was more than a gift to a pauper dictatorship that was fresh out of benefactors.
Bingo. This is a godsend to Castro, and we're getting nothing in return.
I don't think Coca-Cola's sales to Cuba will be particularly robust since a six-pack will cost two weeks' wages.
One good thing to come of this will be the lamentations of leftist poverty porn fetishists who will fret and tug at their chins over the horrible commercialization that may come to Cuba. There's nothing like authentic human suffering to set a lefty's heart aglow.
The scuola di Coca-Cola has NOTHING to do with soft drink sales.
Yeah that's a problem too. WTF is Swiss cheese doing on a Caribbean inspired sandwich? Meh, I mean I'd eat one and enjoy it(and have) but what's the fuss all about?
I agree with establishing relations with them. It is a relic of the past. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the fugitive issue will be handled in January 2017 by a pardon. Hope this turns out to be wrong.
I don't understand how someone with family in that country would actually want a continuation of Cold War policy over normalizing diplomatic relations. 60 years of embargo versus a chance at American involvement when the Castro's eat dirt?
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
I don't understand how someone with family in that country would actually want a continuation of Cold War policy over normalizing diplomatic relations. 60 years of embargo versus a chance at American involvement when the Castro's eat dirt?
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
Ben (and others in S. Florida)....what is the feeling of the Cuban refugees, escapees, and immigrants down there? Are they generally in favor of it? It seems like they are major stakeholders. I haven't heard of any specific polling on the national news.
Again, nobody has really addressed the question...
why was "effectively nothing" the best we could get for handling the Castros a propaganda coup? Why was this handled by amateurs and not professional diplomats? I don't have a particular objection to the policy change but it sure as hell doesn't strike me as a "deal." It looks a lot more like aunilateral concession to a regime that was suddenly friendless.
was interviewed a month ago. He is now 21. He wants to come to America as a tourist to thank the American people for what they did for him. He is grateful. He is now in college studying Engineering.
I don't understand how someone with family in that country would actually want a continuation of Cold War policy over normalizing diplomatic relations. 60 years of embargo versus a chance at American involvement when the Castro's eat dirt?
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
Ben (and others in S. Florida)....what is the feeling of the Cuban refugees, escapees, and immigrants down there? Are they generally in favor of it? It seems like they are major stakeholders. I haven't heard of any specific polling on the national news.
The ones I know hate it.
You could always go go to Cuba. All you had to do was fly in from a country that had relations with them.
Have you ever been to Jamacia and made the 2 hour ride from the airport to Ocho Riis? You want to talk about poverty, take the trip. There is poverty all over the world, deep,deep poverty in countries we go to visit but never see outside the Tourist area. Cuba is not poorer than Haiti. So pontificate away about the immorality of spending money in Cuba
Yes there is poverty, but at one time Cuba was free, wealthy and modern. The ideology which turned it into what it is today is now being given a Thank You from the country that so fiercely opposed it. I know I lived there during the "good" times and 1 year of shit. I am so thankful that my parents were wise enough to get out before it was too late. You guys have no idea what it feels like to lose your motherland and the stigma that comes with it. As Greg so eloquently put it, those poor soul;s down there will be under the grip of that government regardless of the outside influences. As much as I once wanted to return, I shall never set foot or support that country in any manner.
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Having an Embassy with Diplomats that can move about the country and enable the Cuban people access to the Embassy and having the big Neighbor to the North spending money and interacting with the Cuban people will spread the seeds of change directly with the people of Cuba. Isolating them has not worked, why not try something new and engage them?
so I'm not sure I see the need to have squeezed "concessions" out of it. The change we want to see is more easily affected if we actually have an official presence there. Or does anyone think otherwise? This is the beginning of a process, not the end.
Do people think the US should not have had diplomatic relations with Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. during the Cold War? I can tell you that not having the US around would have been a bad outcome for those countries.
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
Citations? Sources?
Do you think people in this country outside of Miami under 35
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
I agree with establishing relations with them. It is a relic of the past. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the fugitive issue will be handled in January 2017 by a pardon. Hope this turns out to be wrong.
I doubt it. If Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich continues to be a minor sour note with respect to his legacy, the pardon of a convicted cop killer would have a significant impact on Obama's. But what they've just done is pretty much given up the possibility of extradition for, as far as I can tell, nothing.
Chesimard was charged as an accomplice to murder, not for the actual act of murder of the state trooper. The evidence in the case demonstrated that she never held or fired off any weapon.
I'm not going to argue that she's a innocent person or deserves a pardon, but the idea of cutting off commerse and relations to a neighboring country because they gave asylum over 30 years ago, to someone who never actually killed anyone, is pretty foolish.
diplomatic relations does not mean condoning the current and past behavior of the Cuban regime or releasing both parties of all historic claims (extradition requests, expropriation of land and other property). a lot has changed in the last 25 years - a communist v capitalist nuclear armaggeddon is no longer the global risk that it once was. with ISIS, other Islamic terrorist cells throughout the middle east and Africa, lone wolf/home grown terrorists, an unstable personality cult regime in north korea, China's south china sea expansionism, Russia's expansionist creep.....does anyone see Cuba as a significant threat or mortal enemy of the US anymore? while Cuba is certainly a communist relic where basic freedoms for citizens are curtailed, it does not possess a major threat to the US and vice versa.
RE: I don't think a lot of people realize that Joanne
Chesimard was charged as an accomplice to murder, not for the actual act of murder of the state trooper. The evidence in the case demonstrated that she never held or fired off any weapon.
I'm not going to argue that she's a innocent person or deserves a pardon, but the idea of cutting off commerse and relations to a neighboring country because they gave asylum over 30 years ago, to someone who never actually killed anyone, is pretty foolish.
It doesn't matter if you held the trigger. You are still guilty if you participated in the crime.
if you knowingly participated in the commission of one. But there's a substantial difference between being the person who pulls the trigger and the person who doesn't. New Jersey's criminal code didn't differentiate between the two in the 70's, and sentenced her as if she actually committed the murder herself.
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
Citations? Sources?
My own personal experience
In other areas I'd accept your experience, but not in this one. To clarify, I'm referring only to your assertion that the revolution was supported by the U.S. left. Are you averring that they were the driving force behind Castro, or what? I'm not clear on this statement.
Having an Embassy with Diplomats that can move about the country and enable the Cuban people access to the Embassy and having the big Neighbor to the North spending money and interacting with the Cuban people will spread the seeds of change directly with the people of Cuba. Isolating them has not worked, why not try something new and engage them?
I don't know that you can say categorically that it hasn't worked. Cuba was exporting revolutionaries to South and Central America, serving as a base for Soviet missiles, sending expeditionary forces to Africa and trying to pass itself off as an example of democracy and self-sufficiency after throwing off the yolk of Yankee imperialism.
So, the embargo did not result in free elections. It did, at least, deprive Cuba of the resources necessary to export expeditionary forces and revolutionaries and serve as a resource sump for the Soviets (and now the Russians). It also shined a continuing light on the fact that the Castros, for all their bullshit about the revolution, are nothing more than tin-pot dictators in charge of a prison camp.
Cuba has always had it within its means to end the embargo at any time by adopting free elections and cutting its ties to the Soviets. The Castros have steadfastly refused to relinquish power-any power- and have turned their island into a prison.
No one seems to want to acknowledge that fact or provide a rational reason as to why these same characters will suddenly reverse course with the cost-free lifting of the embargo and not just prop themselves up further with a new flow of resources. What is more likely to occur is diplomats followed by a cadre of secret police, tourists restricted to certain areas and served by carefully-screened informers, and any Cuban people interacting with Americans questioned by the security forces. Anyone nostalgic for a travel experience akin to the old Soviet Union can now take such an excursion to Cuba.
Give them fucking Posada. It's not like I give a shit about him.
But seriously, we waged war for years against Japan, Germany, Vietnam, Cold War and hot wars via proxies vs. China, Russia. But we have diplomatic and economic relations with all except for Cuba? Please. Whatever Chairman O's motives, it's the inevitable end of a stupid and obviously failed policy. The Castros have outlasted 11 Presidencies, and outlived 6 Presidents (Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Reagan). Hopefully things change for the better for the average Cuban who suffers most. Our policy hasn't helped them at all has it?
Now, when do the cigars start flowing up here?
Quote:
it's that it shouldn't have been handled as a diplomatic amateur hour and we should have something to show for handing Havana their biggest propaganda coup in a half-century. Fugitives, concessions on human rights, something that suggested this was more than a gift to a pauper dictatorship that was fresh out of benefactors.
Bingo. This is a godsend to Castro, and we're getting nothing in return.
I don't think Coca-Cola's sales to Cuba will be particularly robust since a six-pack will cost two weeks' wages.
One good thing to come of this will be the lamentations of leftist poverty porn fetishists who will fret and tug at their chins over the horrible commercialization that may come to Cuba. There's nothing like authentic human suffering to set a lefty's heart aglow.
The scuola di Coca-Cola has NOTHING to do with soft drink sales.
no cop killer is getting a pardon
Is this addressed to me?
You just have to sit back and enjoy it.
I'm very angry about something that will never impact my life in any way! Grrr!!!
Quote:
or something you read in some right wing rag?
Is this addressed to me?
I think it was just next up in the queue. Don't take it personally.
It would appear that most Americans don't agree.
Cuban American opinions are shifting; majority now agree time to normalize diplomatic relations.
Council on Foreign Relations - Public Opinion - ( New Window )
Well answer me this then...why do you feel that you should be the only one who should be able to fling gratuitous pejoratives?
I'm very angry about something that will never impact my life in any way! Grrr!!!
A close friend of mine is Cuban and has family there, so yes, I take an interest.
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
Ben (and others in S. Florida)....what is the feeling of the Cuban refugees, escapees, and immigrants down there? Are they generally in favor of it? It seems like they are major stakeholders. I haven't heard of any specific polling on the national news.
Quote:
I don't understand how someone with family in that country would actually want a continuation of Cold War policy over normalizing diplomatic relations. 60 years of embargo versus a chance at American involvement when the Castro's eat dirt?
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
Ben (and others in S. Florida)....what is the feeling of the Cuban refugees, escapees, and immigrants down there? Are they generally in favor of it? It seems like they are major stakeholders. I haven't heard of any specific polling on the national news.
The ones I know hate it.
You could always go go to Cuba. All you had to do was fly in from a country that had relations with them.
Wut?
Yes there is poverty, but at one time Cuba was free, wealthy and modern. The ideology which turned it into what it is today is now being given a Thank You from the country that so fiercely opposed it. I know I lived there during the "good" times and 1 year of shit. I am so thankful that my parents were wise enough to get out before it was too late. You guys have no idea what it feels like to lose your motherland and the stigma that comes with it. As Greg so eloquently put it, those poor soul;s down there will be under the grip of that government regardless of the outside influences. As much as I once wanted to return, I shall never set foot or support that country in any manner.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
I am for improved relations with Cuba, but not without some kind of change in the Cuban government.
Do people think the US should not have had diplomatic relations with Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. during the Cold War? I can tell you that not having the US around would have been a bad outcome for those countries.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
Quote:
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
Citations? Sources?
Quote:
In comment 12352752 Gary from The East End said:
Quote:
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
Citations? Sources?
My own personal experience
Quote:
I agree with establishing relations with them. It is a relic of the past. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the fugitive issue will be handled in January 2017 by a pardon. Hope this turns out to be wrong.
I doubt it. If Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich continues to be a minor sour note with respect to his legacy, the pardon of a convicted cop killer would have a significant impact on Obama's. But what they've just done is pretty much given up the possibility of extradition for, as far as I can tell, nothing.
Rich's pardon has had zero effect on his legacy
I'm not going to argue that she's a innocent person or deserves a pardon, but the idea of cutting off commerse and relations to a neighboring country because they gave asylum over 30 years ago, to someone who never actually killed anyone, is pretty foolish.
I'm not going to argue that she's a innocent person or deserves a pardon, but the idea of cutting off commerse and relations to a neighboring country because they gave asylum over 30 years ago, to someone who never actually killed anyone, is pretty foolish.
It doesn't matter if you held the trigger. You are still guilty if you participated in the crime.
Quote:
In comment 12352951 Sec 103 said:
Quote:
In comment 12352752 Gary from The East End said:
Quote:
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
Citations? Sources?
My own personal experience
In other areas I'd accept your experience, but not in this one. To clarify, I'm referring only to your assertion that the revolution was supported by the U.S. left. Are you averring that they were the driving force behind Castro, or what? I'm not clear on this statement.
Thanks.
So, the embargo did not result in free elections. It did, at least, deprive Cuba of the resources necessary to export expeditionary forces and revolutionaries and serve as a resource sump for the Soviets (and now the Russians). It also shined a continuing light on the fact that the Castros, for all their bullshit about the revolution, are nothing more than tin-pot dictators in charge of a prison camp.
Cuba has always had it within its means to end the embargo at any time by adopting free elections and cutting its ties to the Soviets. The Castros have steadfastly refused to relinquish power-any power- and have turned their island into a prison.
No one seems to want to acknowledge that fact or provide a rational reason as to why these same characters will suddenly reverse course with the cost-free lifting of the embargo and not just prop themselves up further with a new flow of resources. What is more likely to occur is diplomats followed by a cadre of secret police, tourists restricted to certain areas and served by carefully-screened informers, and any Cuban people interacting with Americans questioned by the security forces. Anyone nostalgic for a travel experience akin to the old Soviet Union can now take such an excursion to Cuba.