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NFT: U.S. restores diplomatic relations with Cuba

jeff57 : 7/1/2015 12:34 pm
Hyman Roth says: Cake for all!

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Thank god Mark C is still around  
Greg from LI : 7/1/2015 4:16 pm : link
Yep, Luis Posada means the US and Cuba are exactly the same.

Give them fucking Posada. It's not like I give a shit about him.
I know basic critical thinking skills are very trying for you  
Greg from LI : 7/1/2015 4:19 pm : link
But let's try this one on for size - Jamaicans are limited to a maximum wage of $20 per month, true or false? The money you give to a vendor on the beach is entirely confiscated by by the Jamaican government, true or false? A poor Jamaican would be arrested for raising his own chickens to suppliment his diet, true or false?
Cuban sandwich is overrated  
Torrag : 7/1/2015 4:32 pm : link
Best thing about it is that bread. Gee two kinds of pork pickles and mustard. Great bread.
Kramer can bring ove real Cubans not Dominicans  
SirSirob : 7/1/2015 4:35 pm : link
ham is not pork  
Greg from LI : 7/1/2015 4:36 pm : link
.
ham is pork dumass  
Torrag : 7/1/2015 4:38 pm : link
oink oink
The problems of the world are not in my department. I'm the  
Victor in CT : 7/1/2015 4:41 pm : link
only cause I'm interested in.

But seriously, we waged war for years against Japan, Germany, Vietnam, Cold War and hot wars via proxies vs. China, Russia. But we have diplomatic and economic relations with all except for Cuba? Please. Whatever Chairman O's motives, it's the inevitable end of a stupid and obviously failed policy. The Castros have outlasted 11 Presidencies, and outlived 6 Presidents (Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Reagan). Hopefully things change for the better for the average Cuban who suffers most. Our policy hasn't helped them at all has it?

Now, when do the cigars start flowing up here?
Ham is cured pork  
Victor in CT : 7/1/2015 4:46 pm : link
..
You saw this on your last trip to Cuba  
Headhunter : 7/1/2015 4:52 pm : link
or something you read in some right wing rag?
Torrag  
CRinCA : 7/1/2015 4:57 pm : link
Don't forget the Swiss cheese.
RE: RE: It's not that it shouldn't have happened...  
BMac : 7/1/2015 5:00 pm : link
In comment 12351713 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 12351577 Dunedin81 said:


Quote:


it's that it shouldn't have been handled as a diplomatic amateur hour and we should have something to show for handing Havana their biggest propaganda coup in a half-century. Fugitives, concessions on human rights, something that suggested this was more than a gift to a pauper dictatorship that was fresh out of benefactors.



Bingo. This is a godsend to Castro, and we're getting nothing in return.

I don't think Coca-Cola's sales to Cuba will be particularly robust since a six-pack will cost two weeks' wages.

One good thing to come of this will be the lamentations of leftist poverty porn fetishists who will fret and tug at their chins over the horrible commercialization that may come to Cuba. There's nothing like authentic human suffering to set a lefty's heart aglow.


The scuola di Coca-Cola has NOTHING to do with soft drink sales.
crca  
Torrag : 7/1/2015 5:00 pm : link
Yeah that's a problem too. WTF is Swiss cheese doing on a Caribbean inspired sandwich? Meh, I mean I'd eat one and enjoy it(and have) but what's the fuss all about?
Ham and swiss are a natural pairing.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/1/2015 5:02 pm : link
Plus, I don't think there are many Caribbean-specific cheeses.
RE: Actually  
gtt350 : 7/1/2015 5:05 pm : link
In comment 12351027 Big Al said:
Quote:
I agree with establishing relations with them. It is a relic of the past. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the fugitive issue will be handled in January 2017 by a pardon. Hope this turns out to be wrong.



no cop killer is getting a pardon
RE: You saw this on your last trip to Cuba  
Victor in CT : 7/1/2015 5:05 pm : link
In comment 12351841 Headhunter said:
Quote:
or something you read in some right wing rag?


Is this addressed to me?
We've had ham and Swiss for centuries  
Torrag : 7/1/2015 5:06 pm : link
We didn't need the Cuban to sell it. Riding on the back of another sandwiches laurels it is...
No  
Headhunter : 7/1/2015 5:07 pm : link
.
RE: some of yall need a fucking drink  
Mike in Long Beach : 7/1/2015 5:38 pm : link
In comment 12351556 GMenLTS said:
Quote:
and a hug


You just have to sit back and enjoy it.

I'm very angry about something that will never impact my life in any way! Grrr!!!
RE: RE: You saw this on your last trip to Cuba  
Bill L : 7/1/2015 5:56 pm : link
In comment 12351873 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 12351841 Headhunter said:


Quote:


or something you read in some right wing rag?



Is this addressed to me?


I think it was just next up in the queue. Don't take it personally.
I'm particularly angry about changing a policy that has been a failure  
Watson : 7/1/2015 6:04 pm : link
So what if the embargo helps keep the average Cuban in poverty. I know that the Castro Bros. aren't long for this world but there are principles!

It would appear that most Americans don't agree.

Cuban American opinions are shifting; majority now agree time to normalize diplomatic relations.


Council on Foreign Relations - Public Opinion - ( New Window )
The other  
Headhunter : 7/1/2015 6:05 pm : link
genius shows up
RE: The other  
Bill L : 7/1/2015 6:08 pm : link
In comment 12352014 Headhunter said:
Quote:
genius shows up

Well answer me this then...why do you feel that you should be the only one who should be able to fling gratuitous pejoratives?
fire away  
Headhunter : 7/1/2015 6:11 pm : link
If I dish it out, I got to be able to take it or I end up a whiner like Greg in LI
But you don't get seem to be able to take it well  
Bill L : 7/1/2015 6:14 pm : link
.
Now the only thing you have to base that on  
Headhunter : 7/1/2015 6:22 pm : link
is that I won't back down? Ok, you got me
RE: RE: some of yall need a fucking drink  
Greg from LI : 7/1/2015 6:25 pm : link
In comment 12351943 Mike in Long Beach said:
Quote:

I'm very angry about something that will never impact my life in any way! Grrr!!!


A close friend of mine is Cuban and has family there, so yes, I take an interest.
Greg  
Ben in Tampa : 7/1/2015 7:42 pm : link
I don't understand how someone with family in that country would actually want a continuation of Cold War policy over normalizing diplomatic relations. 60 years of embargo versus a chance at American involvement when the Castro's eat dirt?
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
RE: Greg  
Bill L : 7/1/2015 7:46 pm : link
In comment 12352176 Ben in Tampa said:
Quote:
I don't understand how someone with family in that country would actually want a continuation of Cold War policy over normalizing diplomatic relations. 60 years of embargo versus a chance at American involvement when the Castro's eat dirt?
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.


Ben (and others in S. Florida)....what is the feeling of the Cuban refugees, escapees, and immigrants down there? Are they generally in favor of it? It seems like they are major stakeholders. I haven't heard of any specific polling on the national news.
Again, nobody has really addressed the question...  
Dunedin81 : 7/1/2015 7:49 pm : link
why was "effectively nothing" the best we could get for handling the Castros a propaganda coup? Why was this handled by amateurs and not professional diplomats? I don't have a particular objection to the policy change but it sure as hell doesn't strike me as a "deal." It looks a lot more like aunilateral concession to a regime that was suddenly friendless.
Elian Gonzalez  
Headhunter : 7/1/2015 7:52 pm : link
was interviewed a month ago. He is now 21. He wants to come to America as a tourist to thank the American people for what they did for him. He is grateful. He is now in college studying Engineering.
RE: RE: Greg  
ctc in ftmyers : 7/1/2015 8:04 pm : link
In comment 12352185 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 12352176 Ben in Tampa said:


Quote:


I don't understand how someone with family in that country would actually want a continuation of Cold War policy over normalizing diplomatic relations. 60 years of embargo versus a chance at American involvement when the Castro's eat dirt?
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.



Ben (and others in S. Florida)....what is the feeling of the Cuban refugees, escapees, and immigrants down there? Are they generally in favor of it? It seems like they are major stakeholders. I haven't heard of any specific polling on the national news.


The ones I know hate it.

You could always go go to Cuba. All you had to do was fly in from a country that had relations with them.
RE: ham is not pork  
Chris in Philly : 7/1/2015 8:12 pm : link
In comment 12351809 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.


Wut?
RE: Lying on the streets on the way to the beach?  
Sec 103 : 7/2/2015 7:34 am : link
In comment 12351752 Headhunter said:
Quote:
Have you ever been to Jamacia and made the 2 hour ride from the airport to Ocho Riis? You want to talk about poverty, take the trip. There is poverty all over the world, deep,deep poverty in countries we go to visit but never see outside the Tourist area. Cuba is not poorer than Haiti. So pontificate away about the immorality of spending money in Cuba

Yes there is poverty, but at one time Cuba was free, wealthy and modern. The ideology which turned it into what it is today is now being given a Thank You from the country that so fiercely opposed it. I know I lived there during the "good" times and 1 year of shit. I am so thankful that my parents were wise enough to get out before it was too late. You guys have no idea what it feels like to lose your motherland and the stigma that comes with it. As Greg so eloquently put it, those poor soul;s down there will be under the grip of that government regardless of the outside influences. As much as I once wanted to return, I shall never set foot or support that country in any manner.
Free, wealthy and modern?  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 7/2/2015 7:46 am : link
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.

Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
The policy of the last 50 years has not worked  
Headhunter : 7/2/2015 7:47 am : link
Having an Embassy with Diplomats that can move about the country and enable the Cuban people access to the Embassy and having the big Neighbor to the North spending money and interacting with the Cuban people will spread the seeds of change directly with the people of Cuba. Isolating them has not worked, why not try something new and engage them?
Other countries have not isolated Cuba  
buford : 7/2/2015 7:53 am : link
so why hasn't their influence led to greater freedom?

I am for improved relations with Cuba, but not without some kind of change in the Cuban government.
Because other countries are not the Big  
Headhunter : 7/2/2015 7:55 am : link
Super Power 90 miles to their north that have more tools in its tool box to influence change from within
I think this move is good policy in general  
RB^2 : 7/2/2015 9:57 am : link
so I'm not sure I see the need to have squeezed "concessions" out of it. The change we want to see is more easily affected if we actually have an official presence there. Or does anyone think otherwise? This is the beginning of a process, not the end.

Do people think the US should not have had diplomatic relations with Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. during the Cold War? I can tell you that not having the US around would have been a bad outcome for those countries.
RE: Free, wealthy and modern?  
Sec 103 : 7/2/2015 9:58 am : link
In comment 12352752 Gary from The East End said:
Quote:
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.

Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.

Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
RE: RE: Free, wealthy and modern?  
BMac : 7/2/2015 10:46 am : link
In comment 12352951 Sec 103 said:
Quote:
In comment 12352752 Gary from The East End said:


Quote:


You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.

Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.


Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...


Citations? Sources?
Do you think people in this country outside of Miami under 35  
Headhunter : 7/2/2015 11:03 am : link
are against normal relations with Cuba? This is an old Cold War issue that only old timers seem to care about
RE: RE: RE: Free, wealthy and modern?  
Sec 103 : 7/2/2015 11:05 am : link
In comment 12353106 BMac said:
Quote:
In comment 12352951 Sec 103 said:


Quote:


In comment 12352752 Gary from The East End said:


Quote:


You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.

Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.


Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...



Citations? Sources?

My own personal experience
RE: RE: Actually  
montanagiant : 7/2/2015 11:43 am : link
In comment 12351085 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 12351027 Big Al said:


Quote:


I agree with establishing relations with them. It is a relic of the past. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the fugitive issue will be handled in January 2017 by a pardon. Hope this turns out to be wrong.



I doubt it. If Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich continues to be a minor sour note with respect to his legacy, the pardon of a convicted cop killer would have a significant impact on Obama's. But what they've just done is pretty much given up the possibility of extradition for, as far as I can tell, nothing.

Rich's pardon has had zero effect on his legacy
I don't think a lot of people realize that Joanne  
eclipz928 : 7/2/2015 12:01 pm : link
Chesimard was charged as an accomplice to murder, not for the actual act of murder of the state trooper. The evidence in the case demonstrated that she never held or fired off any weapon.

I'm not going to argue that she's a innocent person or deserves a pardon, but the idea of cutting off commerse and relations to a neighboring country because they gave asylum over 30 years ago, to someone who never actually killed anyone, is pretty foolish.
restoring  
Les in TO : 7/2/2015 12:21 pm : link
diplomatic relations does not mean condoning the current and past behavior of the Cuban regime or releasing both parties of all historic claims (extradition requests, expropriation of land and other property). a lot has changed in the last 25 years - a communist v capitalist nuclear armaggeddon is no longer the global risk that it once was. with ISIS, other Islamic terrorist cells throughout the middle east and Africa, lone wolf/home grown terrorists, an unstable personality cult regime in north korea, China's south china sea expansionism, Russia's expansionist creep.....does anyone see Cuba as a significant threat or mortal enemy of the US anymore? while Cuba is certainly a communist relic where basic freedoms for citizens are curtailed, it does not possess a major threat to the US and vice versa.
RE: I don't think a lot of people realize that Joanne  
buford : 7/2/2015 12:50 pm : link
In comment 12353428 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
Chesimard was charged as an accomplice to murder, not for the actual act of murder of the state trooper. The evidence in the case demonstrated that she never held or fired off any weapon.

I'm not going to argue that she's a innocent person or deserves a pardon, but the idea of cutting off commerse and relations to a neighboring country because they gave asylum over 30 years ago, to someone who never actually killed anyone, is pretty foolish.


It doesn't matter if you held the trigger. You are still guilty if you participated in the crime.
Of course youre still guilty of a crime  
eclipz928 : 7/2/2015 12:57 pm : link
if you knowingly participated in the commission of one. But there's a substantial difference between being the person who pulls the trigger and the person who doesn't. New Jersey's criminal code didn't differentiate between the two in the 70's, and sentenced her as if she actually committed the murder herself.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Free, wealthy and modern?  
BMac : 7/2/2015 1:06 pm : link
In comment 12353180 Sec 103 said:
Quote:
In comment 12353106 BMac said:


Quote:


In comment 12352951 Sec 103 said:


Quote:


In comment 12352752 Gary from The East End said:


Quote:


You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.

Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.


Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...



Citations? Sources?


My own personal experience


In other areas I'd accept your experience, but not in this one. To clarify, I'm referring only to your assertion that the revolution was supported by the U.S. left. Are you averring that they were the driving force behind Castro, or what? I'm not clear on this statement.

Thanks.
You can tell buford  
Headhunter : 7/2/2015 1:12 pm : link
watches Matlock
RE: The policy of the last 50 years has not worked  
HomerJones45 : 7/2/2015 1:20 pm : link
In comment 12352754 Headhunter said:
Quote:
Having an Embassy with Diplomats that can move about the country and enable the Cuban people access to the Embassy and having the big Neighbor to the North spending money and interacting with the Cuban people will spread the seeds of change directly with the people of Cuba. Isolating them has not worked, why not try something new and engage them?
I don't know that you can say categorically that it hasn't worked. Cuba was exporting revolutionaries to South and Central America, serving as a base for Soviet missiles, sending expeditionary forces to Africa and trying to pass itself off as an example of democracy and self-sufficiency after throwing off the yolk of Yankee imperialism.

So, the embargo did not result in free elections. It did, at least, deprive Cuba of the resources necessary to export expeditionary forces and revolutionaries and serve as a resource sump for the Soviets (and now the Russians). It also shined a continuing light on the fact that the Castros, for all their bullshit about the revolution, are nothing more than tin-pot dictators in charge of a prison camp.

Cuba has always had it within its means to end the embargo at any time by adopting free elections and cutting its ties to the Soviets. The Castros have steadfastly refused to relinquish power-any power- and have turned their island into a prison.

No one seems to want to acknowledge that fact or provide a rational reason as to why these same characters will suddenly reverse course with the cost-free lifting of the embargo and not just prop themselves up further with a new flow of resources. What is more likely to occur is diplomats followed by a cadre of secret police, tourists restricted to certain areas and served by carefully-screened informers, and any Cuban people interacting with Americans questioned by the security forces. Anyone nostalgic for a travel experience akin to the old Soviet Union can now take such an excursion to Cuba.
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