is an utter travesty. I think this gives her resident-for-life status in Cuba. And it tells the family of a murdered police officer that they count for nothing.
Could have waiting out Raul and made nice or influence the coming regime. Not sure how this helps us really, I don't see US products flooding the market. Strikes me as the President looking to pad his resume.
is an utter travesty. I think this gives her resident-for-life status in Cuba. And it tells the family of a murdered police officer that they count for nothing.
Yup. And anyone vacations in Cuba while it's still under the yoke of Castro is an asshole. That money you spend there in those hotels and restaurants that ordinary Cubans are forbidden from entering sure as hell doesn't help the plight of the Cuban people.
is an utter travesty. I think this gives her resident-for-life status in Cuba. And it tells the family of a murdered police officer that they count for nothing.
Yup. And anyone vacations in Cuba while it's still under the yoke of Castro is an asshole. That money you spend there in those hotels and restaurants that ordinary Cubans are forbidden from entering sure as hell doesn't help the plight of the Cuban people.
Exactly!!!
We really should try the current policy for another 60 years Â
will have an impact on that country. at first, things may not change that much - but I don't see them holding back the tide of our culture and ideas forever.
I agree with establishing relations with them. It is a relic of the past. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the fugitive issue will be handled in January 2017 by a pardon. Hope this turns out to be wrong.
When the ailing Fidel Castro ceded power to his less doctrinaire younger brother Raúl in 2008, the quasi-capitalist bubble expanded, but the economy remains heavily socialist. In the United States, we have a minimum wage; Cuba has a maximum wage—$20 a month for almost every job in the country. (Professionals such as doctors and lawyers can make a whopping $10 extra a month.) Sure, Cubans get “free” health care and education, but as Cuban exile and Yale historian Carlos Eire says, “All slave owners need to keep their slaves healthy and ensure that they have the skills to perform their tasks.”
Even employees inside the quasi-capitalist bubble don’t get paid more. The government contracts with Spanish companies such as Meliá International to manage Havana’s hotels. Before accepting its contract, Meliá said that it wanted to pay workers a decent wage. The Cuban government said fine, so the company pays $8–$10 an hour. But Meliá doesn’t pay its employees directly. Instead, the firm gives the compensation to the government, which then pays the workers—but only after pocketing most of the money. I asked several Cubans in my hotel if that arrangement is really true. All confirmed that it is. The workers don’t get $8–$10 an hour; they get 67 cents a day—a child’s allowance.
The maximum wage is just the beginning. Not only are most Cubans not allowed to have money; they’re hardly allowed to have things. The police expend extraordinary manpower ensuring that everyone required to live miserably at the bottom actually does live miserably at the bottom. Dissident blogger and author Yoani Sánchez describes the harassment sarcastically in her book Havana Real: “Buses are stopped in the middle of the street and bags inspected to see if we are carrying some cheese, a lobster, or some dangerous shrimp hidden among our personal belongings.” Perhaps the saddest symptom of Cuba’s state-enforced poverty is the prostitution epidemic—a problem the government officially denies and even forbids foreign journalists based in Havana to mention. Some Cuban prostitutes are professionals, but many are average women—wives, girlfriends, sisters, mothers—who solicit johns once or twice a year for a little extra money to make ends meet.
I agree with establishing relations with them. It is a relic of the past. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the fugitive issue will be handled in January 2017 by a pardon. Hope this turns out to be wrong.
I doubt it. If Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich continues to be a minor sour note with respect to his legacy, the pardon of a convicted cop killer would have a significant impact on Obama's. But what they've just done is pretty much given up the possibility of extradition for, as far as I can tell, nothing.
a little more about the glorious worker's paradise Â
Until a few years ago, ordinary Cubans weren’t allowed even to set foot inside hotels or restaurants unless they worked there, lest they find themselves exposed to the seductive lifestyles of the decadent bourgeoisie from capitalist nations like Mexico, Chile, and Spain. (I cite these three countries because most of the tourists I ran into spoke Spanish to one another.) A few years ago, the government stopped physically blocking Cubans from hotels and restaurants, partly because Raúl is a little more relaxed about these things than Fidel but also because most Cubans can’t afford to go to these places, anyway.
A single restaurant meal in Havana costs an entire month’s salary. One night in a hotel costs five months’ salary. A middle-class tourist from abroad can easily spend more in one day than most Cubans make in a year. I had dinner with four Americans at one of the paladars. The only Cubans in the restaurant were the cooks and the waiters. The bill for the five of us came to about $100. That’s five months’ salary.
The Floridita bar in downtown Havana was one of Ernest Hemingway’s hangouts when he lived there (from 1940 until 1960, the year after Castro came to power). He was in the Floridita all the time—and, in a way, he still is. There’s a statue of him sitting on his favorite bar stool, grinning at today’s patrons. The décor is exactly the same, but there’s a big difference: everyone in the bar these days is a tourist. Cubans aren’t strictly banned any more, but a single bottle of beer costs a week’s salary. No one would blow his dismal paycheck on that.
RE: RE: Greg the only way I would illuminate you Â
is an utter travesty. I think this gives her resident-for-life status in Cuba. And it tells the family of a murdered police officer that they count for nothing.
but the reality is much different. The process of normalization offer lots of opportunities for addressing prior greivances. it can still happen. may even be more likely. Cheer up.
I agree with establishing relations with them. It is a relic of the past. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the fugitive issue will be handled in January 2017 by a pardon. Hope this turns out to be wrong.
I doubt it. If Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich continues to be a minor sour note with respect to his legacy, the pardon of a convicted cop killer would have a significant impact on Obama's. But what they've just done is pretty much given up the possibility of extradition for, as far as I can tell, nothing.
I tend to agree but I still have a feeling about it. Based on some things I have seen in the past, I would not rule it out. I also worry about a pardon for that cop killer in Philadelphia who has a substantial following.
RE: RE: To do that before they extradited Joanne Chesimard ... Â
is an utter travesty. I think this gives her resident-for-life status in Cuba. And it tells the family of a murdered police officer that they count for nothing.
Switzerland because we don't have an extradition agreement regarding fugitives?
We do have an extradition treaty with Switzerland, and I expect that they would extradite Chesimard since killing a cop is probably a crime in Switzerland as here. Sample discussion below (re the FIFA guys):
"Q: What does the U.S. have to do now that the men are contesting their extradition?
A: Switzerland and the U.S. have an extradition treaty, which lays out the circumstances under which extradition can be granted. The U.S. government will have to file a detailed request to Swiss authorities presenting evidence that shows there’s a reasonable basis to believe the FIFA officials committed the crimes they’re charged with. A Swiss judge will make the ultimate ruling on whether the extradition should happen. Even if the judge rules in favor of extradition, the officials can appeal.
Q: What will the Swiss judge have to consider in deciding whether or not to order an extradition?
A: One important consideration for the judge in any extradition case is whether the crimes alleged by the requesting state (in this case, the U.S.) would also be crimes in the extraditing state (in this case, Switzerland). This concept, known as “dual criminality,” is a requirement for extradition in many countries. For instance, in past cases, the U.S. was not able to extradite white-collar criminals from Switzerland for certain tax-evasion schemes because they were not crimes in Switzerland."
A lot of stuff is happening that I never thought would happen. Granted it is coming from a warped mind but I would put it as long shot but not impossible.
RE: RE: RE: To do that before they extradited Joanne Chesimard ... Â
is an utter travesty. I think this gives her resident-for-life status in Cuba. And it tells the family of a murdered police officer that they count for nothing.
Luis Posada Carriles says hi.
Excellent point. Link - ( New Window )
Actively harboring a mass murderer, 'one of the most dangerous terrorists in recent history'. But, you know, the speck of dust in another's eye...
RE: RE: Greg the only way I would illuminate you Â
that the normalization of relations between two countries would hinge on the extradition of one or two convicted criminals.
The hope now would be that the possibility of extradition now actually exists, where it didn't before.
that the normalization of relations between two countries would hinge on the extradition of one or two convicted criminals.
The hope now would be that the possibility of extradition now actually exists, where it didn't before.
will have an impact on that country. at first, things may not change that much - but I don't see them holding back the tide of our culture and ideas forever.
The "scuola di Coca-Cola" will work its magic as it has in other countries.
it's that it shouldn't have been handled as a diplomatic amateur hour and we should have something to show for handing Havana their biggest propaganda coup in a half-century. Fugitives, concessions on human rights, something that suggested this was more than a gift to a pauper dictatorship that was fresh out of benefactors.
When the ailing Fidel Castro ceded power to his less doctrinaire younger brother Raúl in 2008, the quasi-capitalist bubble expanded, but the economy remains heavily socialist. In the United States, we have a minimum wage; Cuba has a maximum wage—$20 a month for almost every job in the country. (Professionals such as doctors and lawyers can make a whopping $10 extra a month.) Sure, Cubans get “free” health care and education, but as Cuban exile and Yale historian Carlos Eire says, “All slave owners need to keep their slaves healthy and ensure that they have the skills to perform their tasks.”
Even employees inside the quasi-capitalist bubble don’t get paid more. The government contracts with Spanish companies such as Meliá International to manage Havana’s hotels. Before accepting its contract, Meliá said that it wanted to pay workers a decent wage. The Cuban government said fine, so the company pays $8–$10 an hour. But Meliá doesn’t pay its employees directly. Instead, the firm gives the compensation to the government, which then pays the workers—but only after pocketing most of the money. I asked several Cubans in my hotel if that arrangement is really true. All confirmed that it is. The workers don’t get $8–$10 an hour; they get 67 cents a day—a child’s allowance.
The maximum wage is just the beginning. Not only are most Cubans not allowed to have money; they’re hardly allowed to have things. The police expend extraordinary manpower ensuring that everyone required to live miserably at the bottom actually does live miserably at the bottom. Dissident blogger and author Yoani Sánchez describes the harassment sarcastically in her book Havana Real: “Buses are stopped in the middle of the street and bags inspected to see if we are carrying some cheese, a lobster, or some dangerous shrimp hidden among our personal belongings.” Perhaps the saddest symptom of Cuba’s state-enforced poverty is the prostitution epidemic—a problem the government officially denies and even forbids foreign journalists based in Havana to mention. Some Cuban prostitutes are professionals, but many are average women—wives, girlfriends, sisters, mothers—who solicit johns once or twice a year for a little extra money to make ends meet.
it's that it shouldn't have been handled as a diplomatic amateur hour and we should have something to show for handing Havana their biggest propaganda coup in a half-century. Fugitives, concessions on human rights, something that suggested this was more than a gift to a pauper dictatorship that was fresh out of benefactors.
Bingo. This is a godsend to Castro, and we're getting nothing in return.
I don't think Coca-Cola's sales to Cuba will be particularly robust since a six-pack will cost two weeks' wages.
One good thing to come of this will be the lamentations of leftist poverty porn fetishists who will fret and tug at their chins over the horrible commercialization that may come to Cuba. There's nothing like authentic human suffering to set a lefty's heart aglow.
RE: To do that before they extradited Joanne Chesimard ... Â
is an utter travesty. I think this gives her resident-for-life status in Cuba. And it tells the family of a murdered police officer that they count for nothing.
Since we're on the subject of "utter travesties"... What about Luis Posada Carriles, Cuban expatriate, a known terrorist living in Miami. He's been responsible for numerous attacks on Cuban civilains, including the bombing of an airliner en route to Cuba from Venezuela in 1976 which killed 73 people, including numerous children and the entire Cuban national fencing team. His partner in this crime, Orlando Bosch, lived happily in the U.S. until his death in 2011. These are just two examples of many such criminals whom our government has steadfastly refused to extradite. So let's put the brakes on the moral outrage here. It's not all that constructive, particularly when we are so incapable of looking in the mirror.
Have you ever been to Jamacia and made the 2 hour ride from the airport to Ocho Riis? You want to talk about poverty, take the trip. There is poverty all over the world, deep,deep poverty in countries we go to visit but never see outside the Tourist area. Cuba is not poorer than Haiti. So pontificate away about the immorality of spending money in Cuba
But let's try this one on for size - Jamaicans are limited to a maximum wage of $20 per month, true or false? The money you give to a vendor on the beach is entirely confiscated by by the Jamaican government, true or false? A poor Jamaican would be arrested for raising his own chickens to suppliment his diet, true or false?
But seriously, we waged war for years against Japan, Germany, Vietnam, Cold War and hot wars via proxies vs. China, Russia. But we have diplomatic and economic relations with all except for Cuba? Please. Whatever Chairman O's motives, it's the inevitable end of a stupid and obviously failed policy. The Castros have outlasted 11 Presidencies, and outlived 6 Presidents (Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Reagan). Hopefully things change for the better for the average Cuban who suffers most. Our policy hasn't helped them at all has it?
it's that it shouldn't have been handled as a diplomatic amateur hour and we should have something to show for handing Havana their biggest propaganda coup in a half-century. Fugitives, concessions on human rights, something that suggested this was more than a gift to a pauper dictatorship that was fresh out of benefactors.
Bingo. This is a godsend to Castro, and we're getting nothing in return.
I don't think Coca-Cola's sales to Cuba will be particularly robust since a six-pack will cost two weeks' wages.
One good thing to come of this will be the lamentations of leftist poverty porn fetishists who will fret and tug at their chins over the horrible commercialization that may come to Cuba. There's nothing like authentic human suffering to set a lefty's heart aglow.
The scuola di Coca-Cola has NOTHING to do with soft drink sales.
Yeah that's a problem too. WTF is Swiss cheese doing on a Caribbean inspired sandwich? Meh, I mean I'd eat one and enjoy it(and have) but what's the fuss all about?
I agree with establishing relations with them. It is a relic of the past. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the fugitive issue will be handled in January 2017 by a pardon. Hope this turns out to be wrong.
I don't understand how someone with family in that country would actually want a continuation of Cold War policy over normalizing diplomatic relations. 60 years of embargo versus a chance at American involvement when the Castro's eat dirt?
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
I don't understand how someone with family in that country would actually want a continuation of Cold War policy over normalizing diplomatic relations. 60 years of embargo versus a chance at American involvement when the Castro's eat dirt?
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
Ben (and others in S. Florida)....what is the feeling of the Cuban refugees, escapees, and immigrants down there? Are they generally in favor of it? It seems like they are major stakeholders. I haven't heard of any specific polling on the national news.
Again, nobody has really addressed the question... Â
why was "effectively nothing" the best we could get for handling the Castros a propaganda coup? Why was this handled by amateurs and not professional diplomats? I don't have a particular objection to the policy change but it sure as hell doesn't strike me as a "deal." It looks a lot more like aunilateral concession to a regime that was suddenly friendless.
was interviewed a month ago. He is now 21. He wants to come to America as a tourist to thank the American people for what they did for him. He is grateful. He is now in college studying Engineering.
I don't understand how someone with family in that country would actually want a continuation of Cold War policy over normalizing diplomatic relations. 60 years of embargo versus a chance at American involvement when the Castro's eat dirt?
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
Ben (and others in S. Florida)....what is the feeling of the Cuban refugees, escapees, and immigrants down there? Are they generally in favor of it? It seems like they are major stakeholders. I haven't heard of any specific polling on the national news.
The ones I know hate it.
You could always go go to Cuba. All you had to do was fly in from a country that had relations with them.
Have you ever been to Jamacia and made the 2 hour ride from the airport to Ocho Riis? You want to talk about poverty, take the trip. There is poverty all over the world, deep,deep poverty in countries we go to visit but never see outside the Tourist area. Cuba is not poorer than Haiti. So pontificate away about the immorality of spending money in Cuba
Yes there is poverty, but at one time Cuba was free, wealthy and modern. The ideology which turned it into what it is today is now being given a Thank You from the country that so fiercely opposed it. I know I lived there during the "good" times and 1 year of shit. I am so thankful that my parents were wise enough to get out before it was too late. You guys have no idea what it feels like to lose your motherland and the stigma that comes with it. As Greg so eloquently put it, those poor soul;s down there will be under the grip of that government regardless of the outside influences. As much as I once wanted to return, I shall never set foot or support that country in any manner.
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Having an Embassy with Diplomats that can move about the country and enable the Cuban people access to the Embassy and having the big Neighbor to the North spending money and interacting with the Cuban people will spread the seeds of change directly with the people of Cuba. Isolating them has not worked, why not try something new and engage them?
so I'm not sure I see the need to have squeezed "concessions" out of it. The change we want to see is more easily affected if we actually have an official presence there. Or does anyone think otherwise? This is the beginning of a process, not the end.
Do people think the US should not have had diplomatic relations with Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. during the Cold War? I can tell you that not having the US around would have been a bad outcome for those countries.
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
Citations? Sources?
Do you think people in this country outside of Miami under 35 Â
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
I agree with establishing relations with them. It is a relic of the past. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the fugitive issue will be handled in January 2017 by a pardon. Hope this turns out to be wrong.
I doubt it. If Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich continues to be a minor sour note with respect to his legacy, the pardon of a convicted cop killer would have a significant impact on Obama's. But what they've just done is pretty much given up the possibility of extradition for, as far as I can tell, nothing.
Rich's pardon has had zero effect on his legacy
I don't think a lot of people realize that Joanne Â
Chesimard was charged as an accomplice to murder, not for the actual act of murder of the state trooper. The evidence in the case demonstrated that she never held or fired off any weapon.
I'm not going to argue that she's a innocent person or deserves a pardon, but the idea of cutting off commerse and relations to a neighboring country because they gave asylum over 30 years ago, to someone who never actually killed anyone, is pretty foolish.
diplomatic relations does not mean condoning the current and past behavior of the Cuban regime or releasing both parties of all historic claims (extradition requests, expropriation of land and other property). a lot has changed in the last 25 years - a communist v capitalist nuclear armaggeddon is no longer the global risk that it once was. with ISIS, other Islamic terrorist cells throughout the middle east and Africa, lone wolf/home grown terrorists, an unstable personality cult regime in north korea, China's south china sea expansionism, Russia's expansionist creep.....does anyone see Cuba as a significant threat or mortal enemy of the US anymore? while Cuba is certainly a communist relic where basic freedoms for citizens are curtailed, it does not possess a major threat to the US and vice versa.
RE: I don't think a lot of people realize that Joanne Â
Chesimard was charged as an accomplice to murder, not for the actual act of murder of the state trooper. The evidence in the case demonstrated that she never held or fired off any weapon.
I'm not going to argue that she's a innocent person or deserves a pardon, but the idea of cutting off commerse and relations to a neighboring country because they gave asylum over 30 years ago, to someone who never actually killed anyone, is pretty foolish.
It doesn't matter if you held the trigger. You are still guilty if you participated in the crime.
if you knowingly participated in the commission of one. But there's a substantial difference between being the person who pulls the trigger and the person who doesn't. New Jersey's criminal code didn't differentiate between the two in the 70's, and sentenced her as if she actually committed the murder herself.
You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
Citations? Sources?
My own personal experience
In other areas I'd accept your experience, but not in this one. To clarify, I'm referring only to your assertion that the revolution was supported by the U.S. left. Are you averring that they were the driving force behind Castro, or what? I'm not clear on this statement.
Having an Embassy with Diplomats that can move about the country and enable the Cuban people access to the Embassy and having the big Neighbor to the North spending money and interacting with the Cuban people will spread the seeds of change directly with the people of Cuba. Isolating them has not worked, why not try something new and engage them?
I don't know that you can say categorically that it hasn't worked. Cuba was exporting revolutionaries to South and Central America, serving as a base for Soviet missiles, sending expeditionary forces to Africa and trying to pass itself off as an example of democracy and self-sufficiency after throwing off the yolk of Yankee imperialism.
So, the embargo did not result in free elections. It did, at least, deprive Cuba of the resources necessary to export expeditionary forces and revolutionaries and serve as a resource sump for the Soviets (and now the Russians). It also shined a continuing light on the fact that the Castros, for all their bullshit about the revolution, are nothing more than tin-pot dictators in charge of a prison camp.
Cuba has always had it within its means to end the embargo at any time by adopting free elections and cutting its ties to the Soviets. The Castros have steadfastly refused to relinquish power-any power- and have turned their island into a prison.
No one seems to want to acknowledge that fact or provide a rational reason as to why these same characters will suddenly reverse course with the cost-free lifting of the embargo and not just prop themselves up further with a new flow of resources. What is more likely to occur is diplomats followed by a cadre of secret police, tourists restricted to certain areas and served by carefully-screened informers, and any Cuban people interacting with Americans questioned by the security forces. Anyone nostalgic for a travel experience akin to the old Soviet Union can now take such an excursion to Cuba.
Link - ( New Window )
Yup. And anyone vacations in Cuba while it's still under the yoke of Castro is an asshole. That money you spend there in those hotels and restaurants that ordinary Cubans are forbidden from entering sure as hell doesn't help the plight of the Cuban people.
Quote:
is an utter travesty. I think this gives her resident-for-life status in Cuba. And it tells the family of a murdered police officer that they count for nothing.
Yup. And anyone vacations in Cuba while it's still under the yoke of Castro is an asshole. That money you spend there in those hotels and restaurants that ordinary Cubans are forbidden from entering sure as hell doesn't help the plight of the Cuban people.
Exactly!!!
+1
Tampa International has actually added a counter in ticketing recently for flights to Havana.
Hey, big surprise, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Please, illuminate us - explain to me the parallels between Cuba and Russia.
Even employees inside the quasi-capitalist bubble don’t get paid more. The government contracts with Spanish companies such as Meliá International to manage Havana’s hotels. Before accepting its contract, Meliá said that it wanted to pay workers a decent wage. The Cuban government said fine, so the company pays $8–$10 an hour. But Meliá doesn’t pay its employees directly. Instead, the firm gives the compensation to the government, which then pays the workers—but only after pocketing most of the money. I asked several Cubans in my hotel if that arrangement is really true. All confirmed that it is. The workers don’t get $8–$10 an hour; they get 67 cents a day—a child’s allowance.
The maximum wage is just the beginning. Not only are most Cubans not allowed to have money; they’re hardly allowed to have things. The police expend extraordinary manpower ensuring that everyone required to live miserably at the bottom actually does live miserably at the bottom. Dissident blogger and author Yoani Sánchez describes the harassment sarcastically in her book Havana Real: “Buses are stopped in the middle of the street and bags inspected to see if we are carrying some cheese, a lobster, or some dangerous shrimp hidden among our personal belongings.” Perhaps the saddest symptom of Cuba’s state-enforced poverty is the prostitution epidemic—a problem the government officially denies and even forbids foreign journalists based in Havana to mention. Some Cuban prostitutes are professionals, but many are average women—wives, girlfriends, sisters, mothers—who solicit johns once or twice a year for a little extra money to make ends meet.
Link - ( New Window )
You are, without a doubt, the most grotestquely ignorant and willfully stupid human being I have ever had any contact with in my entire life.
I doubt it. If Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich continues to be a minor sour note with respect to his legacy, the pardon of a convicted cop killer would have a significant impact on Obama's. But what they've just done is pretty much given up the possibility of extradition for, as far as I can tell, nothing.
A single restaurant meal in Havana costs an entire month’s salary. One night in a hotel costs five months’ salary. A middle-class tourist from abroad can easily spend more in one day than most Cubans make in a year. I had dinner with four Americans at one of the paladars. The only Cubans in the restaurant were the cooks and the waiters. The bill for the five of us came to about $100. That’s five months’ salary.
The Floridita bar in downtown Havana was one of Ernest Hemingway’s hangouts when he lived there (from 1940 until 1960, the year after Castro came to power). He was in the Floridita all the time—and, in a way, he still is. There’s a statue of him sitting on his favorite bar stool, grinning at today’s patrons. The décor is exactly the same, but there’s a big difference: everyone in the bar these days is a tourist. Cubans aren’t strictly banned any more, but a single bottle of beer costs a week’s salary. No one would blow his dismal paycheck on that.
Quote:
would be to send 1000 volts of electricity through you other than that illuminate yourself
You are, without a doubt, the most grotestquely ignorant and willfully stupid human being I have ever had any contact with in my entire life.
I literally lol'd at this one.
Luis Posada Carriles says hi.
Quote:
I agree with establishing relations with them. It is a relic of the past. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the fugitive issue will be handled in January 2017 by a pardon. Hope this turns out to be wrong.
I doubt it. If Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich continues to be a minor sour note with respect to his legacy, the pardon of a convicted cop killer would have a significant impact on Obama's. But what they've just done is pretty much given up the possibility of extradition for, as far as I can tell, nothing.
Quote:
is an utter travesty. I think this gives her resident-for-life status in Cuba. And it tells the family of a murdered police officer that they count for nothing.
Luis Posada Carriles says hi.
Excellent point.
Link - ( New Window )
We do have an extradition treaty with Switzerland, and I expect that they would extradite Chesimard since killing a cop is probably a crime in Switzerland as here. Sample discussion below (re the FIFA guys):
"Q: What does the U.S. have to do now that the men are contesting their extradition?
A: Switzerland and the U.S. have an extradition treaty, which lays out the circumstances under which extradition can be granted. The U.S. government will have to file a detailed request to Swiss authorities presenting evidence that shows there’s a reasonable basis to believe the FIFA officials committed the crimes they’re charged with. A Swiss judge will make the ultimate ruling on whether the extradition should happen. Even if the judge rules in favor of extradition, the officials can appeal.
Q: What will the Swiss judge have to consider in deciding whether or not to order an extradition?
A: One important consideration for the judge in any extradition case is whether the crimes alleged by the requesting state (in this case, the U.S.) would also be crimes in the extraditing state (in this case, Switzerland). This concept, known as “dual criminality,” is a requirement for extradition in many countries. For instance, in past cases, the U.S. was not able to extradite white-collar criminals from Switzerland for certain tax-evasion schemes because they were not crimes in Switzerland."
Quote:
In comment 12350945 njm said:
Quote:
is an utter travesty. I think this gives her resident-for-life status in Cuba. And it tells the family of a murdered police officer that they count for nothing.
Luis Posada Carriles says hi.
Excellent point. Link - ( New Window )
Actively harboring a mass murderer, 'one of the most dangerous terrorists in recent history'. But, you know, the speck of dust in another's eye...
Quote:
would be to send 1000 volts of electricity through you other than that illuminate yourself
You are, without a doubt, the most grotestquely ignorant and willfully stupid human being I have ever had any contact with in my entire life.
LOL
The hope now would be that the possibility of extradition now actually exists, where it didn't before.
The hope now would be that the possibility of extradition now actually exists, where it didn't before.
The "scuola di Coca-Cola" will work its magic as it has in other countries.
Fuck Castro.
Fuck Castro.
Is this Jamaica's new slogan?
Fuck Castro.
THIS !!!
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When the ailing Fidel Castro ceded power to his less doctrinaire younger brother Raúl in 2008, the quasi-capitalist bubble expanded, but the economy remains heavily socialist. In the United States, we have a minimum wage; Cuba has a maximum wage—$20 a month for almost every job in the country. (Professionals such as doctors and lawyers can make a whopping $10 extra a month.) Sure, Cubans get “free” health care and education, but as Cuban exile and Yale historian Carlos Eire says, “All slave owners need to keep their slaves healthy and ensure that they have the skills to perform their tasks.”
Even employees inside the quasi-capitalist bubble don’t get paid more. The government contracts with Spanish companies such as Meliá International to manage Havana’s hotels. Before accepting its contract, Meliá said that it wanted to pay workers a decent wage. The Cuban government said fine, so the company pays $8–$10 an hour. But Meliá doesn’t pay its employees directly. Instead, the firm gives the compensation to the government, which then pays the workers—but only after pocketing most of the money. I asked several Cubans in my hotel if that arrangement is really true. All confirmed that it is. The workers don’t get $8–$10 an hour; they get 67 cents a day—a child’s allowance.
The maximum wage is just the beginning. Not only are most Cubans not allowed to have money; they’re hardly allowed to have things. The police expend extraordinary manpower ensuring that everyone required to live miserably at the bottom actually does live miserably at the bottom. Dissident blogger and author Yoani Sánchez describes the harassment sarcastically in her book Havana Real: “Buses are stopped in the middle of the street and bags inspected to see if we are carrying some cheese, a lobster, or some dangerous shrimp hidden among our personal belongings.” Perhaps the saddest symptom of Cuba’s state-enforced poverty is the prostitution epidemic—a problem the government officially denies and even forbids foreign journalists based in Havana to mention. Some Cuban prostitutes are professionals, but many are average women—wives, girlfriends, sisters, mothers—who solicit johns once or twice a year for a little extra money to make ends meet.
Greg on point again.
ha
Bingo. This is a godsend to Castro, and we're getting nothing in return.
I don't think Coca-Cola's sales to Cuba will be particularly robust since a six-pack will cost two weeks' wages.
One good thing to come of this will be the lamentations of leftist poverty porn fetishists who will fret and tug at their chins over the horrible commercialization that may come to Cuba. There's nothing like authentic human suffering to set a lefty's heart aglow.
Since we're on the subject of "utter travesties"... What about Luis Posada Carriles, Cuban expatriate, a known terrorist living in Miami. He's been responsible for numerous attacks on Cuban civilains, including the bombing of an airliner en route to Cuba from Venezuela in 1976 which killed 73 people, including numerous children and the entire Cuban national fencing team. His partner in this crime, Orlando Bosch, lived happily in the U.S. until his death in 2011. These are just two examples of many such criminals whom our government has steadfastly refused to extradite. So let's put the brakes on the moral outrage here. It's not all that constructive, particularly when we are so incapable of looking in the mirror.
Link - ( New Window )
Give them fucking Posada. It's not like I give a shit about him.
But seriously, we waged war for years against Japan, Germany, Vietnam, Cold War and hot wars via proxies vs. China, Russia. But we have diplomatic and economic relations with all except for Cuba? Please. Whatever Chairman O's motives, it's the inevitable end of a stupid and obviously failed policy. The Castros have outlasted 11 Presidencies, and outlived 6 Presidents (Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Reagan). Hopefully things change for the better for the average Cuban who suffers most. Our policy hasn't helped them at all has it?
Now, when do the cigars start flowing up here?
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it's that it shouldn't have been handled as a diplomatic amateur hour and we should have something to show for handing Havana their biggest propaganda coup in a half-century. Fugitives, concessions on human rights, something that suggested this was more than a gift to a pauper dictatorship that was fresh out of benefactors.
Bingo. This is a godsend to Castro, and we're getting nothing in return.
I don't think Coca-Cola's sales to Cuba will be particularly robust since a six-pack will cost two weeks' wages.
One good thing to come of this will be the lamentations of leftist poverty porn fetishists who will fret and tug at their chins over the horrible commercialization that may come to Cuba. There's nothing like authentic human suffering to set a lefty's heart aglow.
The scuola di Coca-Cola has NOTHING to do with soft drink sales.
no cop killer is getting a pardon
Is this addressed to me?
You just have to sit back and enjoy it.
I'm very angry about something that will never impact my life in any way! Grrr!!!
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or something you read in some right wing rag?
Is this addressed to me?
I think it was just next up in the queue. Don't take it personally.
It would appear that most Americans don't agree.
Cuban American opinions are shifting; majority now agree time to normalize diplomatic relations.
Council on Foreign Relations - Public Opinion - ( New Window )
Well answer me this then...why do you feel that you should be the only one who should be able to fling gratuitous pejoratives?
I'm very angry about something that will never impact my life in any way! Grrr!!!
A close friend of mine is Cuban and has family there, so yes, I take an interest.
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
Ben (and others in S. Florida)....what is the feeling of the Cuban refugees, escapees, and immigrants down there? Are they generally in favor of it? It seems like they are major stakeholders. I haven't heard of any specific polling on the national news.
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I don't understand how someone with family in that country would actually want a continuation of Cold War policy over normalizing diplomatic relations. 60 years of embargo versus a chance at American involvement when the Castro's eat dirt?
The table is set for the (most likely) next Administration to help the island over the next decade.
Ben (and others in S. Florida)....what is the feeling of the Cuban refugees, escapees, and immigrants down there? Are they generally in favor of it? It seems like they are major stakeholders. I haven't heard of any specific polling on the national news.
The ones I know hate it.
You could always go go to Cuba. All you had to do was fly in from a country that had relations with them.
Wut?
Yes there is poverty, but at one time Cuba was free, wealthy and modern. The ideology which turned it into what it is today is now being given a Thank You from the country that so fiercely opposed it. I know I lived there during the "good" times and 1 year of shit. I am so thankful that my parents were wise enough to get out before it was too late. You guys have no idea what it feels like to lose your motherland and the stigma that comes with it. As Greg so eloquently put it, those poor soul;s down there will be under the grip of that government regardless of the outside influences. As much as I once wanted to return, I shall never set foot or support that country in any manner.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
I am for improved relations with Cuba, but not without some kind of change in the Cuban government.
Do people think the US should not have had diplomatic relations with Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. during the Cold War? I can tell you that not having the US around would have been a bad outcome for those countries.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
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You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
Citations? Sources?
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In comment 12352752 Gary from The East End said:
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You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
Citations? Sources?
My own personal experience
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I agree with establishing relations with them. It is a relic of the past. I have an uncomfortable feeling that the fugitive issue will be handled in January 2017 by a pardon. Hope this turns out to be wrong.
I doubt it. If Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich continues to be a minor sour note with respect to his legacy, the pardon of a convicted cop killer would have a significant impact on Obama's. But what they've just done is pretty much given up the possibility of extradition for, as far as I can tell, nothing.
Rich's pardon has had zero effect on his legacy
I'm not going to argue that she's a innocent person or deserves a pardon, but the idea of cutting off commerse and relations to a neighboring country because they gave asylum over 30 years ago, to someone who never actually killed anyone, is pretty foolish.
I'm not going to argue that she's a innocent person or deserves a pardon, but the idea of cutting off commerse and relations to a neighboring country because they gave asylum over 30 years ago, to someone who never actually killed anyone, is pretty foolish.
It doesn't matter if you held the trigger. You are still guilty if you participated in the crime.
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In comment 12352951 Sec 103 said:
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In comment 12352752 Gary from The East End said:
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You do realize that Fulgencio Batista was dictator, right. Sure there were wealthy people in Cuba, but most of the country was dirt poor. Batista whored his country out to mobsters and other moneyed interests while his people starved.
Castro was worse, but the Cuban people rebelled for a reason.
Gary,
Check with the people that lived there even with Batista, he was just a whore for the Gringos. However the poverty you speak of must have been well hidden, in any case the revolution in Cuba was supported by the left in the US...
Citations? Sources?
My own personal experience
In other areas I'd accept your experience, but not in this one. To clarify, I'm referring only to your assertion that the revolution was supported by the U.S. left. Are you averring that they were the driving force behind Castro, or what? I'm not clear on this statement.
Thanks.
So, the embargo did not result in free elections. It did, at least, deprive Cuba of the resources necessary to export expeditionary forces and revolutionaries and serve as a resource sump for the Soviets (and now the Russians). It also shined a continuing light on the fact that the Castros, for all their bullshit about the revolution, are nothing more than tin-pot dictators in charge of a prison camp.
Cuba has always had it within its means to end the embargo at any time by adopting free elections and cutting its ties to the Soviets. The Castros have steadfastly refused to relinquish power-any power- and have turned their island into a prison.
No one seems to want to acknowledge that fact or provide a rational reason as to why these same characters will suddenly reverse course with the cost-free lifting of the embargo and not just prop themselves up further with a new flow of resources. What is more likely to occur is diplomats followed by a cadre of secret police, tourists restricted to certain areas and served by carefully-screened informers, and any Cuban people interacting with Americans questioned by the security forces. Anyone nostalgic for a travel experience akin to the old Soviet Union can now take such an excursion to Cuba.