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Giants 2015 Positional Breakdown: Defensive Tackles

Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/2/2015 9:13 am
One more positional breakdown...
Giants 2015 Positional Breakdown: Defensive Tackles - ( New Window )
Obviously Hankins is an every down player.  
Ira : 7/2/2015 9:30 am : link
My guess is that Ellis starts and plays on running downs while Bromley or Jenkins is in for passing situations.
This is a different group than last year  
BillT : 7/2/2015 9:33 am : link
The addition of Ellis is going to important against the run. Bromley seems like more of a 3 tech guy but that's remains to be seen. They have enough bodies with talent to find someone to compliment Hankins. I think this can be a strong group and part of very good DL this year.
The interior run defense should be better  
Torrag : 7/2/2015 9:49 am : link
How much better is the question. They have the depth to rotate which should keep them fresh.
Agree with your final 4 Eric. If Kuhn is on the team  
Victor in CT : 7/2/2015 10:15 am : link
something is wrong. I would hope to see a 3 headed monster in Jenkis/Ellis/Bromley next to Hankins to become 2 headed with Jenkins ceding playing time to Bromley over the course of the season.
Victor in CT  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/2/2015 10:18 am : link
I think the signs point to Kuhn being on the roster, but I just have a hard time crunching the numbers unless Ellis was a bad signing and/or Jenkins fades fast.

My problem is the numbers at DE.
RE: Victor in CT  
Victor in CT : 7/2/2015 10:22 am : link
In comment 12353015 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I think the signs point to Kuhn being on the roster, but I just have a hard time crunching the numbers unless Ellis was a bad signing and/or Jenkins fades fast.

My problem is the numbers at DE.


Yes, if Jenkins shows he has nothing left in camp and Ellis stinks for some reason, then yes, Kuhn would get a spot by default.

Yes, lots of DEs on the roster, but as we saw with Beatty on the OL, you never know who could go down or why. Also,is the DE quantity truly quality? I think that remains to be seen for most of that group.
Victor  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/2/2015 10:41 am : link
I'm more optimistic about the DEs, but besides that, some of them are DTs in pass rush situations (i.e., Ayers, probably Owa, maybe Wynn).
RE: Victor  
Victor in CT : 7/2/2015 10:43 am : link
In comment 12353096 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I'm more optimistic about the DEs, but besides that, some of them are DTs in pass rush situations (i.e., Ayers, probably Owa, maybe Wynn).


True. Get those "trees" going again that drove Brady nuts in the SBs.
RE: Victor in CT  
Klaatu : 7/2/2015 10:47 am : link
In comment 12353015 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I think the signs point to Kuhn being on the roster, but I just have a hard time crunching the numbers unless Ellis was a bad signing and/or Jenkins fades fast.

My problem is the numbers at DE.


If you believe that Wynn, Moore, and Odighizuwa represent the future...teach them well and let them lead the way...ahem...I don't see why you would keep both Ayers and Selvie. As I've said repeatedly, they're basically the same guy; they bring the same things to the table.

As for the DTs, it's no secret that I'm a big fan of Bromley, so I expect big things from him this year, if not as a starter than as an integral part of the rotation.
Absent  
AcidTest : 7/2/2015 11:26 am : link
injuries:

DT: Hankins, Ellis, Bromley, Jenkins/Kuhn, with the edge to Kuhn.
DE: JPP, Moore, Wynn, OO, Ayers/Selvie (pick em).

I don't see us keeping six DEs, even assuming everyone is healthy, because I don't think we'll carry 10 DL. Cutting players who can still play happens every year. It happens to every team.
then, not than.  
Klaatu : 7/2/2015 11:50 am : link
Jeez...I'm getting like '56 in my old age.
RE: Victor in CT  
BillT : 7/2/2015 12:16 pm : link
In comment 12353015 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I think the signs point to Kuhn being on the roster, but I just have a hard time crunching the numbers unless Ellis was a bad signing and/or Jenkins fades fast.

My problem is the numbers at DE.


The DE locks are JPP, Moore, Wynn and OO. That leaves Selvie/Ayers for the last spot. Both are FA next year so why do you keep both. Funny thing is if we cut Selvie he probably steps in as a starter in Dallas.
lets see whos healthy  
Dankbeerman : 7/2/2015 12:50 pm : link
By the end of camp. Decisions may make themaelves
in  
grizz299 : 7/2/2015 1:00 pm : link
any instance it's a nice problem to have.

Let's dream for a minute...RE: Strength up the middle and our vulnerability to the run....Ellis / Hankins projects to be remarkably strong, Beason by himself is a difference maker and even if the huge Safeties have trouble in coverage they will be like two more linebackers.

My Opinion? We are going to be exceptionally tough to run against.
Moreover, I think two of the best CG's in the league are giong to be able to cover for the safeties coverage problems.
I see not a top five but a top ten defense here.
I  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/2/2015 1:42 pm : link
see Selvie and Ayers as completely different players...Selvie is more the first/second down run defender and Ayers is the situational pass rusher.
I think the question will be how much does Jenkins have left  
Simms11 : 7/2/2015 1:43 pm : link
in the tank? If he can show that he still has it in pre-season, then I think Kuhn will be the guy on the bubble, but if Jenkins shows wear, I think it's Kuhn's spot. Tough call and Kuhn too has to show something, otherwise it's an easy decision.
Eric --  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/2/2015 2:08 pm : link
there's no way Jenkins is out unless he's injured - the coaches love him and he's much more versatile than Ellis or Kuhn

It really does come down to Ellis or Kuhn in my opinion - if they are equal than Kuhn wins - so it's really Ellis'es job to win and Kuhn's to lose
Ayers or Selvie  
JonC : 7/2/2015 2:19 pm : link
especially if both Kuhn and Jenkins make the team, as Jenkins can play some snaps at DE. They're unlikely to keep more than five DEs.
Health will key who stays and goes along with situational talent  
SGMen : 7/2/2015 2:20 pm : link
Ayers was a superb interior pass rusher last year so he is versatile and sticks.

Kuhn has bulked up and is totally healthy now. He was raw coming out of college; older as well at 26; and now may be ready to really show something. When the coaching staff buzzes about someone they usually do so for a reason.

Ellis makes the team because he is a big body who stuffs the run and we really need that. Goal line and short yardage defense needs him immensely.

Bromley makes it because he is young and has upside. I am really hoping he shows well in camp and wins the rotational job with Ellis. I actually see us rotating all of our DL's except for maybe JPP and to a lesser extent Hankins. It just makes sense to rotate guys and keep them fresh.

OWA sticks as he is a rookie; he can play specials; and I think he is more NFL ready than most rookies. I have a feeling he'll work his way into the line-up more and more as the season moves along.

I like Jenkins. I really, really do. However, at age 34, will his versatility be enough to warrant sticking? Only camp can provide that answer. I like the fact that he is a true veteran who will likely understand Spags defense quickly and we need that. However, do you pay him the bigger dollars over Kuhn?

In summary, I LOVE our DL problems. I think we have a good mix of talent. The "key" to 2015 is to see BOTH JPP and HANKINS play at a probowl level and to see the rotation produce "near probowl" level as well. That means ELLIS stuffs the run on 1st and 2nd down and Ayers, Bromley, Moore kick butt on the pass rush.

Lastly, there are always injuries and setbacks in camp so the fact that we have mbattles at key spots is great. Lets say Selvie and Jenkins are final cuts but we have an in-season injury week 3. Well, we have two vets to potentially pick up. Nice problem to have.
the key with Jenkins is definitely age  
JonC : 7/2/2015 2:24 pm : link
and does he have enough left in the tank. I personally don't expect Kuhn to become much of a player, but separately need to know when to cut bait on him and Jenkins.
RE: the key with Jenkins is definitely age  
SGMen : 7/2/2015 2:32 pm : link
In comment 12353835 JonC said:
Quote:
and does he have enough left in the tank. I personally don't expect Kuhn to become much of a player, but separately need to know when to cut bait on him and Jenkins.
Yes, age and Jenkins are the key. With respect to Kuhn, there has to be a reason the staff is feeling good about him. 320 pounds now; 4th year and 2nd year in row healthy; and, no longer "raw". We have to hope the young guys step up and Kuhn (though 30) is "young" in terms of NFL time so lets hope he blossoms.
Ultimately, what you want is  
JonC : 7/2/2015 2:48 pm : link
for Bromley and Ellis to perform well enough to render Kuhn to the bench. I just don't expect much at 30, if he can provide some serviceable snaps, it's a win. Kuhn was still playing on skates late last season, that tends to not change much at his age. We shall see.

RE: I  
BillT : 7/2/2015 2:49 pm : link
In comment 12353720 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
see Selvie and Ayers as completely different players...Selvie is more the first/second down run defender and Ayers is the situational pass rusher.


I agree that's what Selvie is but Ayes played the run pretty well, too if you believe PFF.
Ayers tends to play the well reasonably well  
JonC : 7/2/2015 2:50 pm : link
but it wears down in games and gets dinged as the season wears on, so they try to manage his usage.
RE: Ayers tends to play the well reasonably well  
SGMen : 7/2/2015 3:31 pm : link
In comment 12353917 JonC said:
Quote:
but it wears down in games and gets dinged as the season wears on, so they try to manage his usage.
That is why I think you'll see a lot of rotation along our DL this year: to keep players fresh. Ayers is going to be the "key" third and long "Four Aces" pass rusher and will get some playing time at regular DE as well. We need him healthy and productive all year.

This is now a passing league so you need all the quick, big-bodies you can get. We have the run stuffer in Ellis to go alongside Hankins so no excuses.

Also, a healthy Beason goes a long way in stopping the run too. On paper, I think our run defense is much improved if we stay healthy. No way we finish dead last in ypc or yardage. I suspect "middle of the pack" or slightly better if we stay healthy. We can live with that this year.
BillT  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/2/2015 3:59 pm : link
I don't believe PFF. From my perspective, Ayers was not very good against the run last year.
RE: I  
Klaatu : 7/2/2015 4:11 pm : link
In comment 12353720 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
see Selvie and Ayers as completely different players...Selvie is more the first/second down run defender and Ayers is the situational pass rusher.


17 sacks in six years for Ayers (although 5.5 and 5 in his last two). 13 sacks for Selvie in six years (with 7 and 3 in his last two).

Ayers has averaged 27 tackles a year in six years, but only 22 in his last three. Selvie has averaged 19.5 tackles in six years, but 30 in his last three.

Is it really worth keeping both of them and stifling the development of the three young DEs your roster? I don't think so, but maybe that's just me.
Klaatu  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/2/2015 4:13 pm : link
Ayers was the best pass rusher on the team before he got hurt (including JPP). Selvie had one good year rushing the passer.

I don't think either is "safe" but I can what both bring to the table. Ayers is VERY good rushing the passer from DT.
i don't see the appeal in Kuhn  
GiantsFan84 : 7/2/2015 4:48 pm : link
he's not young and isn't overly good at anything. I think you keep 4 DTs - Big Hank, Jenkins, Ellis, and Bromley
2 things about Kuhn  
bc4life : 7/2/2015 5:36 pm : link
after the injuries -last year was supposed to be his coming out party. He didn't play as well as hoped for, BUT, he also played lighter than usual last year. I suspect he did so to help him with pass rushing. So, I'm expecting him to be much better against the run, but, that's about it. And, we brought in Ellis to do the same thing.

RE: BillT  
BillT : 7/2/2015 6:40 pm : link
In comment 12354132 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I don't believe PFF. From my perspective, Ayers was not very good against the run last year.


Fair enough. As I've said I think it's Wynn that is a key. If they trust him to be the run stopping LDE then Selvie becomes an extra part.
RE: RE: BillT  
SGMen : 7/2/2015 6:44 pm : link
In comment 12354418 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 12354132 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


I don't believe PFF. From my perspective, Ayers was not very good against the run last year.



Fair enough. As I've said I think it's Wynn that is a key. If they trust him to be the run stopping LDE then Selvie becomes an extra part.
If Wynn does develop into a potential starting type DE who stuffs the run, well, Selvie is certainly a goner.

I like Wynn. He's a good story and has a good motor. Hope he does come on and heck even wins the starting "rotational" role with Moore.

The thing about this year's DL is that there will be a lot of rotating of players and I think that is a good thing. I care more about wins and performance than stats.

If JPP & Hankins are probowl quality and the rotation in essence is close to the same we'll be on our way!
I am just happy that the Giants have real choices  
George from PA : 7/3/2015 8:37 am : link
Unfortunately, I feel injuries will ultimately determine the final roster but whether its Kuhn, Jenkins, Ellis or any of the DEs......we will have a rotation of NFL quality players with potential to dominate.
RE: I am just happy that the Giants have real choices  
SGMen : 7/3/2015 9:26 am : link
In comment 12354993 George from PA said:
Quote:
Unfortunately, I feel injuries will ultimately determine the final roster but whether its Kuhn, Jenkins, Ellis or any of the DEs......we will have a rotation of NFL quality players with potential to dominate.
Exactly, it is the rotation which intrigues me the most.

If Kuhn is maybe over-hyped by the Giants staff a bit well than we keep versatile veteran C. Jenkins. Jenkins can play DT and DE in spots and likely still do just enough to be serviceable.

I now am thinking our opening day DL may just be:

Wynn-Hankins-Ellis-JPP - Wynn is there for his run stopping and is supplanted by Moore on passing downs. Ayers supplants Ellis on passing downs. Bromley get some snaps here and there to start the season and shows really well. Assuming Jenkins makes the roster he is the "wild card" guy who spells others for breathers.

Our DL is better than most think but it is only better if we stay healthy AND (especially) the youth steps up.

OWA on specials early in the year and he'll work his way in as the season goes.
RE: 2 things about Kuhn  
SGMen : 7/3/2015 3:57 pm : link
In comment 12354328 bc4life said:
Quote:
after the injuries -last year was supposed to be his coming out party. He didn't play as well as hoped for, BUT, he also played lighter than usual last year. I suspect he did so to help him with pass rushing. So, I'm expecting him to be much better against the run, but, that's about it. And, we brought in Ellis to do the same thing.
Kuhn was still healing from the torn ACL. Most players have their "coming out party" year 2 after the ACL. Look, this guy may just "peak" this year and show something as a run stuffer. If he does, he may make the team over old man Jenkins. Plus Kuhn does play special teams, not sure if Jenkins does.
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