It's that they would sell Isis, Hezbollah, and Hamas flags. That's pretty fucked up, as would be those who actually purchased them.
Exactly. that's my point. it's arbitrary (to an extent). And I wouldn't say I'm outraged, i'm slightly bored on a Thursday night, and interested in this topic.
may do more to harm the situation and likely leads to more resentment between races instead of more tolerance.
I agree with Steve. By over-reaching, this type of ban takes an important issue and trivializes it.
One thing I have noticed, though, is that most people find bans like this ridiculous but when it comes to something they find offensive, they support a ban that is equally absurd.
University of Wisconsin: “I believe the most qualified person should get the job.” is a racist statement. http://www.uwsp.edu/acadaff/NewFacultyResources/NFSRacialMicroaggressions_Table.pdf - ( New Window )
I dont know if it is a "racist statement" nor do I know that that is what that PDF says. But I do know that the phrase is often invoked as a response to affirmative action.
It has been said to me by people who effectively meant "I was better but the other person got the job because of ___." In my experience both times it was where a woman got something (law school journal editor, and partner at law firm respectively) over another candidate because of their gender. And at least with respect to the partnership issue, it was total bullshit; the woman was a superstar who clients loved and the guy was just solid and very hard working (and made partner a year later).
Look, with respect to minority preference in hiring, it happens. Not going to argue the right or wrong, but it happens. My ex-wife is from Puerto Rico. She worked in clinical research and tried for the better part of a year to get into Pfizer ... resumes, letters, phone calls, got nowhere. One day I said "honey, call and ask to speak to the person in charge of minority hiring". She did, was put through immediately and was offered a job within a week. I have other anecdotes including my son. And when I worked as an instructor for an aircraft manufacturer, I was told I absolutely could not fail a minority. But I'm not promulgating or complaining about the practice just stating that it is a fact
I have no problem with people selling those flags. Â
It's that they would sell Isis, Hezbollah, and Hamas flags. That's pretty fucked up, as would be those who actually purchased them.
Exactly. that's my point. it's arbitrary (to an extent). And I wouldn't say I'm outraged, i'm slightly bored on a Thursday night, and interested in this topic.
life is arbitrary and you will go bonkers trying to find some logic to it. AS SFGF people don't have a problem selling terrorist flags. Well that's fan and certainly a retailers right. But try to find Playboy or a pack of cigarettes at some of those same places..
Actually there is scholarly literature that says that a black sounding name makes you less likely to be brought in for an interview than a name like Greg or Emily. I cant put my hands on the other paper Im thinking of, but there is evidence that for various reasons, race continues to matter post hiring too, often favoring the white person.
This is just my opinion, but there is far too much resentment to affirmative action. People dont lead perfect lives and just assume that it wasnt their fault. They didnt get into college because a black person took their spot. They didnt get a promotion because the company needed to hire a woman. Etc. I've defended companies from these sorts of claims and it's almost always bullshit. People who are are chronically late and have bad evaluation after bad evaluation suddenly think they're management material. People who are bottom 10% in sales who think they got fired for age/race/gender issues. Link - ( New Window )
Take something well meaning and generally positive. Turn it into a social media crusade. Well-meaning, well intentioned crusade gathers momentum, runs over all before it. Great. Then the digital mob, undated, pushed it further and into non-obvious directions until lucid-thinking, well-meaning people step back and say 'wait, this isn't what I signed on for...' And by then we end up with death threats and harassment of otherwise innocent folks and campaigns to airbrush a flag off the top of a vehicle because we in our infinite wisdom know something audiences in the 70's and 80's did not.
I dont have any beliefs. I assume they looked at DoH because of the flag issue, sure. But it's also entirely plausible to me that as part of that review, they decided it was low ratings and not important. Hell, for all we know the show was on thin ice for bad ratings. Or it was their top show. I dont give TV Land a lot of thought.
I do remember when the traditionalist class shit its collective pants over Murphy Brown having a fictional out of wedlock child, and when Roseanne had a lesbian kiss. So lets not pretend that it is only sensitive lefties who cant handle shit on TV.
To be sure. And that remains true of a number of veterans' groups who has substituted Twitter outrage over all manner of slights, perceived or real, for doing anything that actually enriches their lives or the community.
I dont know that anyone called for TV Land to pull DoH. It's an odd decision. I dont think that flag should be flown by a US State (frankly for treason reasons as much as racial reasons). But I dont see a problem with the same flag used in media, fiction etc. like DoH.
People get up in arms about all kinds of things I dont understand. There are schools where kids cant wear baggy pants. Everyone has their bugaboo.
It wasn't an all powerful government presence, but corporate pressure that would lead to censorship.
Say something bad and you won't get thrown in jail, you'll just have millions of morons demanding an apology and companies bowing to the demands of these morons.
This is a country where some people refused to eat delicious Chick-fil-a over gay rights. We are batshit crazy.
May or may not mean, the United States and specifically, actively its president and congressional republican leaders are on record as supporting slavery through passing TPP. There was anti- slavery language in it which our leaders specifically are having removed.
Buy anything made in China and you're actively supporting slavery.
RE: And, I know a lot of people hate this comparison Â
But I'm Italian American, and the Sopranos basically shit all over my peoples intelligence. But I didn't throw a fit. That show didn't affect my life even though it mocked my race. Hypersensitive people shouldn't always get their way. DoH had a flag in it, that's all. And just because you choose to see the flag that way isn't everyone else's fault.
Brad, I was totally with you until your last sentence. People do not choose to view the flag that way. Racists go out of there way to make it clear that they consider it their symbol. I am just taking them at there word.... As for this history of Southern pride? Most of these flags went up in the 60's as a way of expressing "F" you to the negros who were acting way too uppity at the time, what with asking to share water fountains and such.... Sorry, but I do not consider the sixties to be "history."
to stop selling Confederate flags. They also mention that the genesis of the story was on InfoWars, Alex Jones' shit site. I am wondering who can believe this stuff. How does the President order such a thing anyway? What does the White House use for leverage?
I don't give one fuck either way about the DOH, but I can see that some people get pretty upset when they have to think about race at all. Lots of privileged bullshit on this thread. lonk - ( New Window )
a flag is a piece of cloth, a symbol is a symbol. Flags, or any symbolic gesture can have a hundred meanings to a hundred different people.
If you aren't smart enough to figure out the context of the one using the symbol, you should probably just shut the fuck up about symbolism in general.
to separate your own ideas about a symbol from someone elses, you really should shut the fuck up. I'm from the northeast, the confederate flag means abosultey nothing to me, but this whole debate is just idiotic when it comes to this level.
That flag has meant many things to many different types of people, and not any one of those opinions are openly wrong on their face, or ultimately just. When used as an object symbol of hate, that context is clear, and it's the hate you rightly object too.
Should State institutions stop using it, maybe. I'm open to that arguement and I feel like it's a matter for the people of those states to decide for themselves through their legislature. Should the General Lee car being removed from toy production or as a fixture on syndicated TV be held up as as some form of progress. Maybe if you're braindamaged.
I dont know that anyone called for TV Land to pull DoH. It's an odd decision. I dont think that flag should be flown by a US State (frankly for treason reasons as much as racial reasons). But I dont see a problem with the same flag used in media, fiction etc. like DoH.
People get up in arms about all kinds of things I dont understand. There are schools where kids cant wear baggy pants. Everyone has their bugaboo.
It's not a strange decision at all. It's the same reason that Amazon and other outlets pulled the flags. It's the social justice warrior crusade gone wild and woe to the organization that does not toe the line. BTW, the toy cars of General Lee were also stopped.
It's the social justice warrior crusade gone wild and woe Â
it is their sole raison d'etre and their utmost primary obligation. Whether it's for social or economic policy reasons. However, I'm dubious that they saw any bottom line impact between South Carolina and yesterday. I would actually be willing to bet that, if anything, they saw an uptick in sales.
Amazon customer services reps 100% - no source debate - told customers they were ordered by the Federal government to remove those items for sale. It is documented in online chats with the Amazon reps.
In my experience, Amazon customer service reps know exactly two things: Jack and Shit. If you ask them anything outside of the scripted responses/flows they will say anything to end the call as soon as possible.
Actually there is scholarly literature that says that a black sounding name makes you less likely to be brought in for an interview than a name like Greg or Emily. I cant put my hands on the other paper Im thinking of, but there is evidence that for various reasons, race continues to matter post hiring too, often favoring the white person.
This is just my opinion, but there is far too much resentment to affirmative action. People dont lead perfect lives and just assume that it wasnt their fault. They didnt get into college because a black person took their spot. They didnt get a promotion because the company needed to hire a woman. Etc. I've defended companies from these sorts of claims and it's almost always bullshit. People who are are chronically late and have bad evaluation after bad evaluation suddenly think they're management material. People who are bottom 10% in sales who think they got fired for age/race/gender issues. Link - ( New Window )
Deej, no disagreement there. I have no doubt that bias in favor of whites exists, whether consciously or unconsciously. My only point was that institutional policy favoring minorities also exists. I think anyone who denies either one is simply wrong.
And with respect to ...
[quote]People dont lead perfect lives and just assume that it wasnt their fault. They didnt get into college because a black person took their spot. They didnt get a promotion because the company needed to hire a woman[quote],
When I was younger, I was passed over for several promotions that I strongly felt I was the best person for. Back then, in the middle of the civil rights movement and debate, it occurred to me that if I were black, there would be no way to convince me that I wasn't the victim of discrimination. It's human nature, pure and simple. Of course discrimination occurs, but not every occurrence of perceived unfairness is due to discrimination. Sometimes life is just unfair no matter who you are.
So Amazon and Sears (people still by stuff at Sears??) won't sell the Confederate Battle Flag. No sweat, China's equivalent of Amazon (Alibaba.com) is happy to take American Dollars!!!
Take something well meaning and generally positive. Turn it into a social media crusade. Well-meaning, well intentioned crusade gathers momentum, runs over all before it. Great. Then the digital mob, undated, pushed it further and into non-obvious directions until lucid-thinking, well-meaning people step back and say 'wait, this isn't what I signed on for...' And by then we end up with death threats and harassment of otherwise innocent folks and campaigns to airbrush a flag off the top of a vehicle because we in our infinite wisdom know something audiences in the 70's and 80's did not.
+1.
The pendulum often swings too far in 1 direction or another because some people have a compulsion to feel that they are, for lack of a better word, "cool". I always thought that played a large part in Jane Fonda's decision to "man" a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun way back when.
Take something well meaning and generally positive. Turn it into a social media crusade. Well-meaning, well intentioned crusade gathers momentum, runs over all before it. Great. Then the digital mob, undated, pushed it further and into non-obvious directions until lucid-thinking, well-meaning people step back and say 'wait, this isn't what I signed on for...' And by then we end up with death threats and harassment of otherwise innocent folks and campaigns to airbrush a flag off the top of a vehicle because we in our infinite wisdom know something audiences in the 70's and 80's did not.
+1.
The pendulum often swings too far in 1 direction or another because some people have a compulsion to feel that they are, for lack of a better word, "cool". I always thought that played a large part in Jane Fonda's decision to "man" a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun way back when.
This all reminds me of the Seinfeld episode about not wearing the AIDS ribbon. It all makes me want go out and hang my Confederate flags from front porch just to be "uncool."
It was the first instance of "total war", in which the opposing army (the North) goes to war against an entire people (The South), taking over their homes, burning their cities, etc., rather than engaging the enemy on a battlefield, as in Gettysburg.
The average Southerner who took up arms against the North wasn't doing it to protect slavery, but to protect their homes and to protect their families. Most probably didn't have a strong grasp on the politics behind the war, but knew that their land was being taken, their people killed, and so fought.
And the Confederate Flag is the flag that they fought, and died, defending.
I can appreciate how a Southerner might take some pride in that flag, irrespective of Slavery, especially considering that reducing the causes of the Civil War to slavery is naively simplistic.
It was never the North's intention, at the start of the war, to end slavery. This was something that was done along the way for strategic reasons.
Remember that it was the American Flag, not the Confederate Flag, that flew for the vast majority of slavery's reign in the USA, but to associate the Stars and Stripes with that and with nothing else would be foolish -- and so too with the Confederate Flag.
And I'm Canadian. I have absolutely no horse in the race.
Yes, this is the original Confederate Flag! What everyone thinks is the official flag (most Americans North AND South) isn't!
The "Southern Cross Flag" (the one that's being discussed) is the official Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It was rejected for a national flag (though it was used as a "canton", or part of the next two National Flags of the Confederacy.
The Confederacy had multiple Battle Flags/State Flags in use for the Civil War. I have no doubt that the popularity of Robert E. Lee was a factor in associating the Confederacy with the Southern Cross Flag, but it should have never been adopted by any of the States in the former Confederacy as anything "official" (as a flag to be flown on or outside State offices).
It was the first instance of "total war", in which the opposing army (the North) goes to war against an entire people (The South), taking over their homes, burning their cities, etc., rather than engaging the enemy on a battlefield, as in Gettysburg.
The average Southerner who took up arms against the North wasn't doing it to protect slavery, but to protect their homes and to protect their families. Most probably didn't have a strong grasp on the politics behind the war, but knew that their land was being taken, their people killed, and so fought.
And the Confederate Flag is the flag that they fought, and died, defending.
I can appreciate how a Southerner might take some pride in that flag, irrespective of Slavery, especially considering that reducing the causes of the Civil War to slavery is naively simplistic.
It was never the North's intention, at the start of the war, to end slavery. This was something that was done along the way for strategic reasons.
Remember that it was the American Flag, not the Confederate Flag, that flew for the vast majority of slavery's reign in the USA, but to associate the Stars and Stripes with that and with nothing else would be foolish -- and so too with the Confederate Flag.
And I'm Canadian. I have absolutely no horse in the race.
Wow. Just Wow. First off, the South started the war when they fired on Fort Sumnter. Secondly, the war was over slavery. Regardless of whether a particular Southerner owned slaves, they were fighting for a government whose chief policy was to continue that horrible caste like system.
I don't know how people can continue to defend this flag. It was a flag of a treasonous act & then a middle finger to the Civil Rights movement when it reappeared in the '50s & '60s. There is no defense of this flag. None. It shouldn't be flying anywhere on state grounds.
It wasn't an all powerful government presence, but corporate pressure that would lead to censorship.
Say something bad and you won't get thrown in jail, you'll just have millions of morons demanding an apology and companies bowing to the demands of these morons.
This is a country where some people refused to eat delicious Chick-fil-a over gay rights. We are batshit crazy.
Yes, this is the original Confederate Flag! What everyone thinks is the official flag (most Americans North AND South) isn't!
The "Southern Cross Flag" (the one that's being discussed) is the official Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It was rejected for a national flag (though it was used as a "canton", or part of the next two National Flags of the Confederacy.
The Confederacy had multiple Battle Flags/State Flags in use for the Civil War. I have no doubt that the popularity of Robert E. Lee was a factor in associating the Confederacy with the Southern Cross Flag, but it should have never been adopted by any of the States in the former Confederacy as anything "official" (as a flag to be flown on or outside State offices).
It wasn't an all powerful government presence, but corporate pressure that would lead to censorship.
Say something bad and you won't get thrown in jail, you'll just have millions of morons demanding an apology and companies bowing to the demands of these morons.
This is a country where some people refused to eat delicious Chick-fil-a over gay rights. We are batshit crazy.
this
And it's not that in broad and general terms these twitter warriors aren't "right" in their initial impulse. Often their causes are just. But a bully who believes he's bullying for the right reasons is still a bully. You can advocate for what you believe in without running your opponent (particularly when your opponent is an identifiable person) into the ground.
Shhhh they can't handle those types of allegations. That, and, they support their causes.
Exactly. that's my point. it's arbitrary (to an extent). And I wouldn't say I'm outraged, i'm slightly bored on a Thursday night, and interested in this topic.
I agree with Steve. By over-reaching, this type of ban takes an important issue and trivializes it.
One thing I have noticed, though, is that most people find bans like this ridiculous but when it comes to something they find offensive, they support a ban that is equally absurd.
Quote:
University of Wisconsin: “I believe the most qualified person should get the job.” is a racist statement. http://www.uwsp.edu/acadaff/NewFacultyResources/NFSRacialMicroaggressions_Table.pdf - ( New Window )
I dont know if it is a "racist statement" nor do I know that that is what that PDF says. But I do know that the phrase is often invoked as a response to affirmative action.
It has been said to me by people who effectively meant "I was better but the other person got the job because of ___." In my experience both times it was where a woman got something (law school journal editor, and partner at law firm respectively) over another candidate because of their gender. And at least with respect to the partnership issue, it was total bullshit; the woman was a superstar who clients loved and the guy was just solid and very hard working (and made partner a year later).
Look, with respect to minority preference in hiring, it happens. Not going to argue the right or wrong, but it happens. My ex-wife is from Puerto Rico. She worked in clinical research and tried for the better part of a year to get into Pfizer ... resumes, letters, phone calls, got nowhere. One day I said "honey, call and ask to speak to the person in charge of minority hiring". She did, was put through immediately and was offered a job within a week. I have other anecdotes including my son. And when I worked as an instructor for an aircraft manufacturer, I was told I absolutely could not fail a minority. But I'm not promulgating or complaining about the practice just stating that it is a fact
I'd obviously detest the people buying them, but this is America. Let them buy them and get the hell they'll inevitably face.
Quote:
It's that they would sell Isis, Hezbollah, and Hamas flags. That's pretty fucked up, as would be those who actually purchased them.
Exactly. that's my point. it's arbitrary (to an extent). And I wouldn't say I'm outraged, i'm slightly bored on a Thursday night, and interested in this topic.
This is just my opinion, but there is far too much resentment to affirmative action. People dont lead perfect lives and just assume that it wasnt their fault. They didnt get into college because a black person took their spot. They didnt get a promotion because the company needed to hire a woman. Etc. I've defended companies from these sorts of claims and it's almost always bullshit. People who are are chronically late and have bad evaluation after bad evaluation suddenly think they're management material. People who are bottom 10% in sales who think they got fired for age/race/gender issues.
Link - ( New Window )
Because it IS that well liked.
I do remember when the traditionalist class shit its collective pants over Murphy Brown having a fictional out of wedlock child, and when Roseanne had a lesbian kiss. So lets not pretend that it is only sensitive lefties who cant handle shit on TV.
People get up in arms about all kinds of things I dont understand. There are schools where kids cant wear baggy pants. Everyone has their bugaboo.
"Hey, we want to produce a comedy about a Nazi POW camp. The laughs write themselves!"
It was a comedic version of Stalag 17. It was relatively successful. Especially in reruns
Quote:
I've always wondered how the hell Hogan's Heroes was pitched?
"Hey, we want to produce a comedy about a Nazi POW camp. The laughs write themselves!"
It was a comedic version of Stalag 17. It was relatively successful. Especially in reruns
I know that. My point was strictly about it's genesis. Can you imagine trying to pitch a comedy about a Nazi POW camp?
Say something bad and you won't get thrown in jail, you'll just have millions of morons demanding an apology and companies bowing to the demands of these morons.
This is a country where some people refused to eat delicious Chick-fil-a over gay rights. We are batshit crazy.
Buy anything made in China and you're actively supporting slavery.
Brad, I was totally with you until your last sentence. People do not choose to view the flag that way. Racists go out of there way to make it clear that they consider it their symbol. I am just taking them at there word.... As for this history of Southern pride? Most of these flags went up in the 60's as a way of expressing "F" you to the negros who were acting way too uppity at the time, what with asking to share water fountains and such.... Sorry, but I do not consider the sixties to be "history."
I don't give one fuck either way about the DOH, but I can see that some people get pretty upset when they have to think about race at all. Lots of privileged bullshit on this thread.
lonk - ( New Window )
If you aren't smart enough to figure out the context of the one using the symbol, you should probably just shut the fuck up about symbolism in general.
That flag has meant many things to many different types of people, and not any one of those opinions are openly wrong on their face, or ultimately just. When used as an object symbol of hate, that context is clear, and it's the hate you rightly object too.
Should State institutions stop using it, maybe. I'm open to that arguement and I feel like it's a matter for the people of those states to decide for themselves through their legislature. Should the General Lee car being removed from toy production or as a fixture on syndicated TV be held up as as some form of progress. Maybe if you're braindamaged.
Um there is context in this thread too. Maybe you should look at the OP again?!?
People get up in arms about all kinds of things I dont understand. There are schools where kids cant wear baggy pants. Everyone has their bugaboo.
It's not a strange decision at all. It's the same reason that Amazon and other outlets pulled the flags. It's the social justice warrior crusade gone wild and woe to the organization that does not toe the line. BTW, the toy cars of General Lee were also stopped.
Amazon customer services reps 100% - no source debate - told customers they were ordered by the Federal government to remove those items for sale. It is documented in online chats with the Amazon reps.
In my experience, Amazon customer service reps know exactly two things: Jack and Shit. If you ask them anything outside of the scripted responses/flows they will say anything to end the call as soon as possible.
That's what I said. Amazon is just protecting themselves from the SJW brigade.
This is just my opinion, but there is far too much resentment to affirmative action. People dont lead perfect lives and just assume that it wasnt their fault. They didnt get into college because a black person took their spot. They didnt get a promotion because the company needed to hire a woman. Etc. I've defended companies from these sorts of claims and it's almost always bullshit. People who are are chronically late and have bad evaluation after bad evaluation suddenly think they're management material. People who are bottom 10% in sales who think they got fired for age/race/gender issues. Link - ( New Window )
Deej, no disagreement there. I have no doubt that bias in favor of whites exists, whether consciously or unconsciously. My only point was that institutional policy favoring minorities also exists. I think anyone who denies either one is simply wrong.
[quote]People dont lead perfect lives and just assume that it wasnt their fault. They didnt get into college because a black person took their spot. They didnt get a promotion because the company needed to hire a woman[quote],
When I was younger, I was passed over for several promotions that I strongly felt I was the best person for. Back then, in the middle of the civil rights movement and debate, it occurred to me that if I were black, there would be no way to convince me that I wasn't the victim of discrimination. It's human nature, pure and simple. Of course discrimination occurs, but not every occurrence of perceived unfairness is due to discrimination. Sometimes life is just unfair no matter who you are.
http://www.alibaba.com/products/F0/us_flag_confederate.html?spm=a2700.7724838.a271qf.48.yZvtr3
And while Amazon won't "sell" you CBF merchandise, they are HAPPY to rent out episodes of Dukes of Hazzard on Amazon Prime!!!
Don't call us hypocrites!
So is Sears!
Please buy anything from us...please! - ( New Window )
+1.
The pendulum often swings too far in 1 direction or another because some people have a compulsion to feel that they are, for lack of a better word, "cool". I always thought that played a large part in Jane Fonda's decision to "man" a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun way back when.
Quote:
Take something well meaning and generally positive. Turn it into a social media crusade. Well-meaning, well intentioned crusade gathers momentum, runs over all before it. Great. Then the digital mob, undated, pushed it further and into non-obvious directions until lucid-thinking, well-meaning people step back and say 'wait, this isn't what I signed on for...' And by then we end up with death threats and harassment of otherwise innocent folks and campaigns to airbrush a flag off the top of a vehicle because we in our infinite wisdom know something audiences in the 70's and 80's did not.
+1.
The pendulum often swings too far in 1 direction or another because some people have a compulsion to feel that they are, for lack of a better word, "cool". I always thought that played a large part in Jane Fonda's decision to "man" a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun way back when.
This all reminds me of the Seinfeld episode about not wearing the AIDS ribbon. It all makes me want go out and hang my Confederate flags from front porch just to be "uncool."
The average Southerner who took up arms against the North wasn't doing it to protect slavery, but to protect their homes and to protect their families. Most probably didn't have a strong grasp on the politics behind the war, but knew that their land was being taken, their people killed, and so fought.
And the Confederate Flag is the flag that they fought, and died, defending.
I can appreciate how a Southerner might take some pride in that flag, irrespective of Slavery, especially considering that reducing the causes of the Civil War to slavery is naively simplistic.
It was never the North's intention, at the start of the war, to end slavery. This was something that was done along the way for strategic reasons.
Remember that it was the American Flag, not the Confederate Flag, that flew for the vast majority of slavery's reign in the USA, but to associate the Stars and Stripes with that and with nothing else would be foolish -- and so too with the Confederate Flag.
And I'm Canadian. I have absolutely no horse in the race.
Yes, this is the original Confederate Flag! What everyone thinks is the official flag (most Americans North AND South) isn't!
The "Southern Cross Flag" (the one that's being discussed) is the official Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It was rejected for a national flag (though it was used as a "canton", or part of the next two National Flags of the Confederacy.
The Confederacy had multiple Battle Flags/State Flags in use for the Civil War. I have no doubt that the popularity of Robert E. Lee was a factor in associating the Confederacy with the Southern Cross Flag, but it should have never been adopted by any of the States in the former Confederacy as anything "official" (as a flag to be flown on or outside State offices).
The average Southerner who took up arms against the North wasn't doing it to protect slavery, but to protect their homes and to protect their families. Most probably didn't have a strong grasp on the politics behind the war, but knew that their land was being taken, their people killed, and so fought.
And the Confederate Flag is the flag that they fought, and died, defending.
I can appreciate how a Southerner might take some pride in that flag, irrespective of Slavery, especially considering that reducing the causes of the Civil War to slavery is naively simplistic.
It was never the North's intention, at the start of the war, to end slavery. This was something that was done along the way for strategic reasons.
Remember that it was the American Flag, not the Confederate Flag, that flew for the vast majority of slavery's reign in the USA, but to associate the Stars and Stripes with that and with nothing else would be foolish -- and so too with the Confederate Flag.
And I'm Canadian. I have absolutely no horse in the race.
Wow. Just Wow. First off, the South started the war when they fired on Fort Sumnter. Secondly, the war was over slavery. Regardless of whether a particular Southerner owned slaves, they were fighting for a government whose chief policy was to continue that horrible caste like system.
I don't know how people can continue to defend this flag. It was a flag of a treasonous act & then a middle finger to the Civil Rights movement when it reappeared in the '50s & '60s. There is no defense of this flag. None. It shouldn't be flying anywhere on state grounds.
Say something bad and you won't get thrown in jail, you'll just have millions of morons demanding an apology and companies bowing to the demands of these morons.
This is a country where some people refused to eat delicious Chick-fil-a over gay rights. We are batshit crazy.
this
Yes, this is the original Confederate Flag! What everyone thinks is the official flag (most Americans North AND South) isn't!
The "Southern Cross Flag" (the one that's being discussed) is the official Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It was rejected for a national flag (though it was used as a "canton", or part of the next two National Flags of the Confederacy.
The Confederacy had multiple Battle Flags/State Flags in use for the Civil War. I have no doubt that the popularity of Robert E. Lee was a factor in associating the Confederacy with the Southern Cross Flag, but it should have never been adopted by any of the States in the former Confederacy as anything "official" (as a flag to be flown on or outside State offices).
John, I made similar points before. No one cares.
Quote:
It wasn't an all powerful government presence, but corporate pressure that would lead to censorship.
Say something bad and you won't get thrown in jail, you'll just have millions of morons demanding an apology and companies bowing to the demands of these morons.
This is a country where some people refused to eat delicious Chick-fil-a over gay rights. We are batshit crazy.
this
And it's not that in broad and general terms these twitter warriors aren't "right" in their initial impulse. Often their causes are just. But a bully who believes he's bullying for the right reasons is still a bully. You can advocate for what you believe in without running your opponent (particularly when your opponent is an identifiable person) into the ground.