Context matters. The n-word might be racist and socially unacceptable yelled by a white person in the street, but if Louis CK says it in a joke in his stand-up, it's fine. Same with the Rebel Flag, IMO. Having it flying next to the American Flag in a park is a problem. Having it detailed on the roof of a car in a TV show from 30 years ago isn't.
Things that were socially acceptable years ago can become socially unacceptable because of the recognition of what an item such as that flag represents. People can try to associate that flag with southern pride and heritage all they want but the truth is it represents the wrong side of the war against slavery. That flag is no better than the swastika, even though that has a better diverse use throughout history. No one would proudly sport a swastika now days unless you are trying to make a statement about your feelings about jews known.
Things that were socially acceptable years ago can become socially unacceptable because of the recognition of what an item such as that flag represents. People can try to associate that flag with southern pride and heritage all they want but the truth is it represents the wrong side of the war against slavery. That flag is no better than the swastika, even though that has a better diverse use throughout history. No one would proudly sport a swastika now days unless you are trying to make a statement about your feelings about jews known.
You're wrong. It's a damn kids show. As a kid that flag never symbolized racism to me. It was just a cool fucking car.
Context matters. The n-word might be racist and socially unacceptable yelled by a white person in the street, but if Louis CK says it in a joke in his stand-up, it's fine. Same with the Rebel Flag, IMO. Having it flying next to the American Flag in a park is a problem. Having it detailed on the roof of a car in a TV show from 30 years ago isn't.
First post on the thread and it couldn't be said better. So ridiculous.
I'm the biggest supporter to take down the flag from public buildings. I also think we should remove some monuments of confederate assholes. I believe the flag represents racism not southern heritage, that the Civil War was OF COURSE about slavery, that we should honor more Union soldiers not Confederate Generals. The flag represents racism and at the very least treason. There is one flag the flag of the US. Period.
Having said all of that the Dukes of Hazzard was a silly show and there was no need to remove it from there. Then again they are in business and if they're getting enough pressure then thats just the market at work.
I am just not dismissive of the feelings of many Americans who look at that flag in disgust. A silly TV show that popularized and made it cool to sport that flag. After all its just those good old boys, never meaning no harm, right?
I am just not dismissive of the feelings of many Americans who look at that flag in disgust. A silly TV show that popularized and made it cool to sport that flag. After all its just those good old boys, never meaning no harm, right?
Maybe they could put a trigger warning at the beginning of the show.
Things that were socially acceptable years ago can become socially unacceptable because of the recognition of what an item such as that flag represents. People can try to associate that flag with southern pride and heritage all they want but the truth is it represents the wrong side of the war against slavery. That flag is no better than the swastika, even though that has a better diverse use throughout history. No one would proudly sport a swastika now days unless you are trying to make a statement about your feelings about jews known.
You're wrong. It's a damn kids show. As a kid that flag never symbolized racism to me. It was just a cool fucking car.
Your entitled to your opinion. I have mine. What is a silly TV show, is seen as a re-enforcement of the watered down and sanitize version of Southern history. It makes it more acceptable to be OK with the symbol as a source of Southern pride, rather than what it is. I hope you can see that. Would you be OK with a German TV show with the symbol of a swastika on the roof, even if it is a silly TV show?
Things that were socially acceptable years ago can become socially unacceptable because of the recognition of what an item such as that flag represents. People can try to associate that flag with southern pride and heritage all they want but the truth is it represents the wrong side of the war against slavery. That flag is no better than the swastika, even though that has a better diverse use throughout history. No one would proudly sport a swastika now days unless you are trying to make a statement about your feelings about jews known.
You're wrong. It's a damn kids show. As a kid that flag never symbolized racism to me. It was just a cool fucking car.
Your entitled to your opinion. I have mine. What is a silly TV show, is seen as a re-enforcement of the watered down and sanitize version of Southern history. It makes it more acceptable to be OK with the symbol as a source of Southern pride, rather than what it is. I hope you can see that. Would you be OK with a German TV show with the symbol of a swastika on the roof, even if it is a silly TV show?
I support any symbol, however offensive, on a car or anyone's personal property. Because I support free speech, even if I don't agree with it. That doesn't mean that companies can't decide not to show offensive material, but where do you draw the line?
It does not. Look at my original post. I clearly pointed out that times change. I think this is a normal reaction for these times, especially with a couple of generations that did not watch the show
Most people know that tvland isnot showing contemporary shows Â
I've always wondered how the hell Hogan's Heroes was pitched?
"Hey, we want to produce a comedy about a Nazi POW camp. The laughs write themselves!"
A lot of people were very angry about Hogan's Heroes back when it came out. It's not like they brushed it off and were like, "It's a comedy, so it's OK"
The movie Autofocus, about the life and death of Bob Crane, deals with this somewhat. It's implied that Crane was partially blackballed due to starring in Hogan's Heroes.
I absolutely support that flag being taken down from public buildings. I agree with the network's right to pull whatever show they want. But this is just another example of silly hypersensitivity. Might someone be offended? Of course. OMG, we've offended someone! Call me when jokes about fat people, short people (even had a hit song about that one), Polish, Italian, Irish, Jews, blonds etc. are all banned because someone might be offended. Its not that I support that flag, but there's some fatigue factor setting in with walking on eggshells so as not to offend one of the multitude of different groups. Lighten up! Of course you won't. You will be indignant that anyone would disagree with your sensibilities. And you of course are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
the idea that Bo and Luke Duke were sporting the Rebel Flag on their car without an apparent understanding of what it really represented is just part of the fiction they existed within, even if it's only something we're all conscious of retroactively.
Things that were socially acceptable years ago can become socially unacceptable because of the recognition of what an item such as that flag represents. People can try to associate that flag with southern pride and heritage all they want but the truth is it represents the wrong side of the war against slavery. That flag is no better than the swastika, even though that has a better diverse use throughout history. No one would proudly sport a swastika now days unless you are trying to make a statement about your feelings about jews known.
You're wrong. It's a damn kids show. As a kid that flag never symbolized racism to me. It was just a cool fucking car.
Your entitled to your opinion. I have mine. What is a silly TV show, is seen as a re-enforcement of the watered down and sanitize version of Southern history. It makes it more acceptable to be OK with the symbol as a source of Southern pride, rather than what it is. I hope you can see that. Would you be OK with a German TV show with the symbol of a swastika on the roof, even if it is a silly TV show?
The show is satire. Comedians, sitcoms and plenty of other Hollywood material portray all kinds of offensive material. Where do you draw the line? It's fine to mindful of other peoples feelings, but there is a line, and this is the beginning of crossing it.
We should recognize and rectify the bad things of the past Â
But I'm Italian American, and the Sopranos basically shit all over my peoples intelligence. But I didn't throw a fit. That show didn't affect my life even though it mocked my race. Hypersensitive people shouldn't always get their way. DoH had a flag in it, that's all. And just because you choose to see the flag that way isn't everyone else's fault.
RE: To Kill a Mockingbird and Gone with the Wind Â
But overall portrayal of Asians on tv has been abysmal. And don't get me started on Sydney Greenstreet. But i still wouldn't want all of that stuff to banish as if it never existed
RE: RE: To Kill a Mockingbird and Gone with the Wind Â
Thats ridiculous about the American flag. How about just fly the american flag and put the confederate flag where it belongs..in the garbage.
I was being someone flippant, it's not my view, and I support the removal of the confederate flag from public buildings, but when you branch out into commerce or entertainment you venture to an area I prefer people not tell me what I can buy or watch.
Here is an article from earlier this year - pre SC Church Shooting:
Quote:
Students at UC Irvine vote to ban American flag
Quote:
.....Students at the University of California, Irvine have voted to make their school a more “culturally inclusive” place by banning the American flag.
The Associated Students of University of California (ASUCI) passed a resolution March 3 that would remove the Stars & Stripes along with every other flag from the lobby of a complex housing the offices of the student government.
“Designing a culturally inclusive space aims to remove barriers that create undue effort and separation by planning and designing spaces that enable everyone to participate equally and confidentially,” read the resolution authored by Matthew Guevara......
recently, post SC shooting, there have been petitions being floated around to ban the American flag and the motion has been picking up steam. Google it, tons of links from reputable sources (and some not).
America is going to hell in a hand basket faster than it was just a few short years ago. I truly fear for the direction we as a people are moving. Becoming overly PC and at the same time dealing with increased polarization between so many different factions. Strange times we live in.
Ok, but you have to take into account that it was a UC school Â
America is going to hell in a hand basket faster than it was just a few short years ago. I truly fear for the direction we as a people are moving. Becoming overly PC and at the same time dealing with increased polarization between so many different factions. Strange times we live in.
Also, people should get off your lawn
RE: Mchales navy was most racist show on tv when I was growing up Â
But overall portrayal of Asians on tv has been abysmal. And don't get me started on Sydney Greenstreet. But i still wouldn't want all of that stuff to banish as if it never existed
Before my time, but even before the PC era, and as a child, I found re-runs of F Troop to be uncomfortably racist.
recently, post SC shooting, there have been petitions being floated around to ban the American flag and the motion has been picking up steam. Google it, tons of links from reputable sources (and some not).
it's sickening to me. [/quote]
The fact that you have to point out that there are reputable sources tells me that they aren't reputable sources. Fact is there is no movement to remove the american flag and any such requests are disregarded as they should be.
Again this is about the flag of a treasonous group that also represents racism. This has nothing to do with the american flag and other conservative wackos have used that same "slippery slope" argument to defend keeping the confederate flag up.
As far as what private companies want to do and how they want to be represented that is up to them. If they don't want the headache of dealing with any complaints then they'll bail on Gone with the wind and the Dukes of Hazzard. If I were in their position I wouldn't but if thats what they feel is better for their business model then how can you blame them.
Hahaha. What a ridiculous, call out post. Totally JerseyJoe like. Take a break from posting Pjcas18.
It's not banning but they're giving ridiculous publicity to a group of aholes who are making a big show of burning it. Those people, IMO, are no different in spirit than those who fly the Confederate flag with all ill intent. And yet, we give them air time.
The fact that you have to point out that there are reputable sources tells me that they aren't reputable sources.
So you think because I'm saying there are some reputable sources that means to you there are none?
go fuck yourself too.
I have no, zero, nil, nada issue with removing the confederate flag from public buildings. I 100% support it. It should have been done long ago or never been there in the first place.
removing it from entertainment, commerce, etc. is yes, in fact a slippery slope because IMO constitutes censorship. And I view that lens as having no defined end (who says what is offensive and what isn't).
From what I read Amazon and Walmart (and Sears) removed confederate flag merchandise (yet still sell swastika merchandise) at the urging (directive) of the White House and the NAACP.
University of Wisconsin: “I believe the most qualified person should get the job.” is a racist statement. http://www.uwsp.edu/acadaff/NewFacultyResources/NFSRacialMicroaggressions_Table.pdf - ( New Window )
Imo this new fad microaggression stuff is the biggest crock of bs in recent times.
removing it from entertainment, commerce, etc. is yes, in fact a slippery slope because IMO constitutes censorship. And I view that lens as having no defined end (who says what is offensive and what isn't).
From what I read Amazon and Walmart (and Sears) removed confederate flag merchandise (yet still sell swastika merchandise) at the urging (directive) of the White House and the NAACP.
[/quote]
And thats where the craziness comes in. The White House is not urging Amazon or whatever to remove it. Where did you read that? Newsmax? Infowars? This is conspiracy theory nonsense that is part of the crowd that wants to use dog whistles and say look white people are under attack. Christians are under attack. Christmas is under attack. And ALL of that is complete NONSENSE.
There is NO SLIPPERY SLOPE!!!!! A company has a right to DECIDE what kind of image it wants to put it out and if that means axing a stupid show from the 80s then so be it.
on the North Korea thread which detailed the unimaginable barbarism there ..,.,
Quote:
Its hard to imagine
River Mike : 8:32 pm : link : reply
human cruelty on this scale and for so long. While here, we agonize over the possibility of hurting someone's feelings.
Try to play it off as sarcasm. I've seen your posts before.
No, I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being flippant (maybe google the difference and come back and apologize - or not - I don't care) and I said it in the very next post if you, as I called you out for already, bothered to read before frothing at the mouth.
Frothing at the mouth? Hahaha. Get over yourself pal. You're not that Â
Important. And dude,I understand difference between flippant and sarcasm (Again, get over yourself), but I don't think you were being flippant. I've seen your posts before on this subject and I think you were conveying what you truly think. That's fine. Just man up to it.
RE: Frothing at the mouth? Hahaha. Get over yourself pal. You're not that Â
Important. And dude,I understand difference between flippant and sarcasm (Again, get over yourself), but I don't think you were being flippant. I've seen your posts before on this subject and I think you were conveying what you truly think. That's fine. Just man up to it.
Ok, you've seen my post before. whatever that means. I always say 100% of the time exactly what I feel in real words, I don't pussy around with passive aggression like you, if you have something to say then say it. If not, then back off. You're the worst kind of shit stirrer, one with no balls.
Ironically, while we all wrangle on what th confederate flag Â
May or may not mean, the United States and specifically, actively its president and congressional republican leaders are on record as supporting slavery through passing TPP. There was anti- slavery language in it which our leaders specifically are having removed.
Good times.. All in the family.. The BEST... both shows have (and play off of stereotypes) Laughing at themselves , yet conveying a message... HOW STUPID ignorance is.
BTW, I was watching "Whats Happening Now"... Bunch of Uncle Tom's?? Stop it...
University of Wisconsin: “I believe the most qualified person should get the job.” is a racist statement. http://www.uwsp.edu/acadaff/NewFacultyResources/NFSRacialMicroaggressions_Table.pdf - ( New Window )
I dont know if it is a "racist statement" nor do I know that that is what that PDF says. But I do know that the phrase is often invoked as a response to affirmative action.
It has been said to me by people who effectively meant "I was better but the other person got the job because of ___." In my experience both times it was where a woman got something (law school journal editor, and partner at law firm respectively) over another candidate because of their gender. And at least with respect to the partnership issue, it was total bullshit; the woman was a superstar who clients loved and the guy was just solid and very hard working (and made partner a year later).
removing it from entertainment, commerce, etc. is yes, in fact a slippery slope because IMO constitutes censorship. And I view that lens as having no defined end (who says what is offensive and what isn't).
From what I read Amazon and Walmart (and Sears) removed confederate flag merchandise (yet still sell swastika merchandise) at the urging (directive) of the White House and the NAACP.
And thats where the craziness comes in. The White House is not urging Amazon or whatever to remove it. Where did you read that? Newsmax? Infowars? This is conspiracy theory nonsense that is part of the crowd that wants to use dog whistles and say look white people are under attack. Christians are under attack. Christmas is under attack. And ALL of that is complete NONSENSE.
There is NO SLIPPERY SLOPE!!!!! A company has a right to DECIDE what kind of image it wants to put it out and if that means axing a stupid show from the 80s then so be it. [/quote]
Amazon customer services reps 100% - no source debate - told customers they were ordered by the Federal government to remove those items for sale. It is documented in online chats with the Amazon reps.
The federal government (via Press secretary Josh Earnest) denies this, so it comes down to a who do you believe. I would not put it past Amazon to lie, but my view on politicians is they usually lie. So I think there could be some truth to it.
My point is Amazon no longer sells confederate flags, but they sell ISIS flags, swastikas, Hezbollah and Hamas flags. How is that not offensive to the family of a fallen American soldier in Iraq to see these terrorist flags? That's my point. Who is the arbiter of what is offensive and where does it end.
My stance is make it all available for sale, I'd rather see someone in a confederate flag t-shirt so I know who he is, rather than not knowing and finding out later.
Lulz. When do I not state what I feel? I get torched on every political thread, so I must have some balls.
Keep bringing the lulz though.
I usually stay off political threads, I should follow my own rules more. It's like tic-tac-toe --> global thermo nuclear war in war games. there can be no winner.
To be fair, the outrage isn't that amz won't sell the Confederate flag Â
It's that they would sell Isis, Hezbollah, and Hamas flags. That's pretty fucked up, as would be those who actually purchased them.
Exactly. that's my point. it's arbitrary (to an extent). And I wouldn't say I'm outraged, i'm slightly bored on a Thursday night, and interested in this topic.
may do more to harm the situation and likely leads to more resentment between races instead of more tolerance.
I agree with Steve. By over-reaching, this type of ban takes an important issue and trivializes it.
One thing I have noticed, though, is that most people find bans like this ridiculous but when it comes to something they find offensive, they support a ban that is equally absurd.
University of Wisconsin: “I believe the most qualified person should get the job.” is a racist statement. http://www.uwsp.edu/acadaff/NewFacultyResources/NFSRacialMicroaggressions_Table.pdf - ( New Window )
I dont know if it is a "racist statement" nor do I know that that is what that PDF says. But I do know that the phrase is often invoked as a response to affirmative action.
It has been said to me by people who effectively meant "I was better but the other person got the job because of ___." In my experience both times it was where a woman got something (law school journal editor, and partner at law firm respectively) over another candidate because of their gender. And at least with respect to the partnership issue, it was total bullshit; the woman was a superstar who clients loved and the guy was just solid and very hard working (and made partner a year later).
Look, with respect to minority preference in hiring, it happens. Not going to argue the right or wrong, but it happens. My ex-wife is from Puerto Rico. She worked in clinical research and tried for the better part of a year to get into Pfizer ... resumes, letters, phone calls, got nowhere. One day I said "honey, call and ask to speak to the person in charge of minority hiring". She did, was put through immediately and was offered a job within a week. I have other anecdotes including my son. And when I worked as an instructor for an aircraft manufacturer, I was told I absolutely could not fail a minority. But I'm not promulgating or complaining about the practice just stating that it is a fact
I have no problem with people selling those flags. Â
It's that they would sell Isis, Hezbollah, and Hamas flags. That's pretty fucked up, as would be those who actually purchased them.
Exactly. that's my point. it's arbitrary (to an extent). And I wouldn't say I'm outraged, i'm slightly bored on a Thursday night, and interested in this topic.
life is arbitrary and you will go bonkers trying to find some logic to it. AS SFGF people don't have a problem selling terrorist flags. Well that's fan and certainly a retailers right. But try to find Playboy or a pack of cigarettes at some of those same places..
Actually there is scholarly literature that says that a black sounding name makes you less likely to be brought in for an interview than a name like Greg or Emily. I cant put my hands on the other paper Im thinking of, but there is evidence that for various reasons, race continues to matter post hiring too, often favoring the white person.
This is just my opinion, but there is far too much resentment to affirmative action. People dont lead perfect lives and just assume that it wasnt their fault. They didnt get into college because a black person took their spot. They didnt get a promotion because the company needed to hire a woman. Etc. I've defended companies from these sorts of claims and it's almost always bullshit. People who are are chronically late and have bad evaluation after bad evaluation suddenly think they're management material. People who are bottom 10% in sales who think they got fired for age/race/gender issues. Link - ( New Window )
Take something well meaning and generally positive. Turn it into a social media crusade. Well-meaning, well intentioned crusade gathers momentum, runs over all before it. Great. Then the digital mob, undated, pushed it further and into non-obvious directions until lucid-thinking, well-meaning people step back and say 'wait, this isn't what I signed on for...' And by then we end up with death threats and harassment of otherwise innocent folks and campaigns to airbrush a flag off the top of a vehicle because we in our infinite wisdom know something audiences in the 70's and 80's did not.
I dont have any beliefs. I assume they looked at DoH because of the flag issue, sure. But it's also entirely plausible to me that as part of that review, they decided it was low ratings and not important. Hell, for all we know the show was on thin ice for bad ratings. Or it was their top show. I dont give TV Land a lot of thought.
I do remember when the traditionalist class shit its collective pants over Murphy Brown having a fictional out of wedlock child, and when Roseanne had a lesbian kiss. So lets not pretend that it is only sensitive lefties who cant handle shit on TV.
To be sure. And that remains true of a number of veterans' groups who has substituted Twitter outrage over all manner of slights, perceived or real, for doing anything that actually enriches their lives or the community.
I dont know that anyone called for TV Land to pull DoH. It's an odd decision. I dont think that flag should be flown by a US State (frankly for treason reasons as much as racial reasons). But I dont see a problem with the same flag used in media, fiction etc. like DoH.
People get up in arms about all kinds of things I dont understand. There are schools where kids cant wear baggy pants. Everyone has their bugaboo.
It wasn't an all powerful government presence, but corporate pressure that would lead to censorship.
Say something bad and you won't get thrown in jail, you'll just have millions of morons demanding an apology and companies bowing to the demands of these morons.
This is a country where some people refused to eat delicious Chick-fil-a over gay rights. We are batshit crazy.
May or may not mean, the United States and specifically, actively its president and congressional republican leaders are on record as supporting slavery through passing TPP. There was anti- slavery language in it which our leaders specifically are having removed.
Buy anything made in China and you're actively supporting slavery.
RE: And, I know a lot of people hate this comparison Â
But I'm Italian American, and the Sopranos basically shit all over my peoples intelligence. But I didn't throw a fit. That show didn't affect my life even though it mocked my race. Hypersensitive people shouldn't always get their way. DoH had a flag in it, that's all. And just because you choose to see the flag that way isn't everyone else's fault.
Brad, I was totally with you until your last sentence. People do not choose to view the flag that way. Racists go out of there way to make it clear that they consider it their symbol. I am just taking them at there word.... As for this history of Southern pride? Most of these flags went up in the 60's as a way of expressing "F" you to the negros who were acting way too uppity at the time, what with asking to share water fountains and such.... Sorry, but I do not consider the sixties to be "history."
to stop selling Confederate flags. They also mention that the genesis of the story was on InfoWars, Alex Jones' shit site. I am wondering who can believe this stuff. How does the President order such a thing anyway? What does the White House use for leverage?
I don't give one fuck either way about the DOH, but I can see that some people get pretty upset when they have to think about race at all. Lots of privileged bullshit on this thread. lonk - ( New Window )
a flag is a piece of cloth, a symbol is a symbol. Flags, or any symbolic gesture can have a hundred meanings to a hundred different people.
If you aren't smart enough to figure out the context of the one using the symbol, you should probably just shut the fuck up about symbolism in general.
to separate your own ideas about a symbol from someone elses, you really should shut the fuck up. I'm from the northeast, the confederate flag means abosultey nothing to me, but this whole debate is just idiotic when it comes to this level.
That flag has meant many things to many different types of people, and not any one of those opinions are openly wrong on their face, or ultimately just. When used as an object symbol of hate, that context is clear, and it's the hate you rightly object too.
Should State institutions stop using it, maybe. I'm open to that arguement and I feel like it's a matter for the people of those states to decide for themselves through their legislature. Should the General Lee car being removed from toy production or as a fixture on syndicated TV be held up as as some form of progress. Maybe if you're braindamaged.
I dont know that anyone called for TV Land to pull DoH. It's an odd decision. I dont think that flag should be flown by a US State (frankly for treason reasons as much as racial reasons). But I dont see a problem with the same flag used in media, fiction etc. like DoH.
People get up in arms about all kinds of things I dont understand. There are schools where kids cant wear baggy pants. Everyone has their bugaboo.
It's not a strange decision at all. It's the same reason that Amazon and other outlets pulled the flags. It's the social justice warrior crusade gone wild and woe to the organization that does not toe the line. BTW, the toy cars of General Lee were also stopped.
It's the social justice warrior crusade gone wild and woe Â
it is their sole raison d'etre and their utmost primary obligation. Whether it's for social or economic policy reasons. However, I'm dubious that they saw any bottom line impact between South Carolina and yesterday. I would actually be willing to bet that, if anything, they saw an uptick in sales.
Amazon customer services reps 100% - no source debate - told customers they were ordered by the Federal government to remove those items for sale. It is documented in online chats with the Amazon reps.
In my experience, Amazon customer service reps know exactly two things: Jack and Shit. If you ask them anything outside of the scripted responses/flows they will say anything to end the call as soon as possible.
Actually there is scholarly literature that says that a black sounding name makes you less likely to be brought in for an interview than a name like Greg or Emily. I cant put my hands on the other paper Im thinking of, but there is evidence that for various reasons, race continues to matter post hiring too, often favoring the white person.
This is just my opinion, but there is far too much resentment to affirmative action. People dont lead perfect lives and just assume that it wasnt their fault. They didnt get into college because a black person took their spot. They didnt get a promotion because the company needed to hire a woman. Etc. I've defended companies from these sorts of claims and it's almost always bullshit. People who are are chronically late and have bad evaluation after bad evaluation suddenly think they're management material. People who are bottom 10% in sales who think they got fired for age/race/gender issues. Link - ( New Window )
Deej, no disagreement there. I have no doubt that bias in favor of whites exists, whether consciously or unconsciously. My only point was that institutional policy favoring minorities also exists. I think anyone who denies either one is simply wrong.
And with respect to ...
[quote]People dont lead perfect lives and just assume that it wasnt their fault. They didnt get into college because a black person took their spot. They didnt get a promotion because the company needed to hire a woman[quote],
When I was younger, I was passed over for several promotions that I strongly felt I was the best person for. Back then, in the middle of the civil rights movement and debate, it occurred to me that if I were black, there would be no way to convince me that I wasn't the victim of discrimination. It's human nature, pure and simple. Of course discrimination occurs, but not every occurrence of perceived unfairness is due to discrimination. Sometimes life is just unfair no matter who you are.
So Amazon and Sears (people still by stuff at Sears??) won't sell the Confederate Battle Flag. No sweat, China's equivalent of Amazon (Alibaba.com) is happy to take American Dollars!!!
Take something well meaning and generally positive. Turn it into a social media crusade. Well-meaning, well intentioned crusade gathers momentum, runs over all before it. Great. Then the digital mob, undated, pushed it further and into non-obvious directions until lucid-thinking, well-meaning people step back and say 'wait, this isn't what I signed on for...' And by then we end up with death threats and harassment of otherwise innocent folks and campaigns to airbrush a flag off the top of a vehicle because we in our infinite wisdom know something audiences in the 70's and 80's did not.
+1.
The pendulum often swings too far in 1 direction or another because some people have a compulsion to feel that they are, for lack of a better word, "cool". I always thought that played a large part in Jane Fonda's decision to "man" a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun way back when.
Take something well meaning and generally positive. Turn it into a social media crusade. Well-meaning, well intentioned crusade gathers momentum, runs over all before it. Great. Then the digital mob, undated, pushed it further and into non-obvious directions until lucid-thinking, well-meaning people step back and say 'wait, this isn't what I signed on for...' And by then we end up with death threats and harassment of otherwise innocent folks and campaigns to airbrush a flag off the top of a vehicle because we in our infinite wisdom know something audiences in the 70's and 80's did not.
+1.
The pendulum often swings too far in 1 direction or another because some people have a compulsion to feel that they are, for lack of a better word, "cool". I always thought that played a large part in Jane Fonda's decision to "man" a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun way back when.
This all reminds me of the Seinfeld episode about not wearing the AIDS ribbon. It all makes me want go out and hang my Confederate flags from front porch just to be "uncool."
It was the first instance of "total war", in which the opposing army (the North) goes to war against an entire people (The South), taking over their homes, burning their cities, etc., rather than engaging the enemy on a battlefield, as in Gettysburg.
The average Southerner who took up arms against the North wasn't doing it to protect slavery, but to protect their homes and to protect their families. Most probably didn't have a strong grasp on the politics behind the war, but knew that their land was being taken, their people killed, and so fought.
And the Confederate Flag is the flag that they fought, and died, defending.
I can appreciate how a Southerner might take some pride in that flag, irrespective of Slavery, especially considering that reducing the causes of the Civil War to slavery is naively simplistic.
It was never the North's intention, at the start of the war, to end slavery. This was something that was done along the way for strategic reasons.
Remember that it was the American Flag, not the Confederate Flag, that flew for the vast majority of slavery's reign in the USA, but to associate the Stars and Stripes with that and with nothing else would be foolish -- and so too with the Confederate Flag.
And I'm Canadian. I have absolutely no horse in the race.
Yes, this is the original Confederate Flag! What everyone thinks is the official flag (most Americans North AND South) isn't!
The "Southern Cross Flag" (the one that's being discussed) is the official Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It was rejected for a national flag (though it was used as a "canton", or part of the next two National Flags of the Confederacy.
The Confederacy had multiple Battle Flags/State Flags in use for the Civil War. I have no doubt that the popularity of Robert E. Lee was a factor in associating the Confederacy with the Southern Cross Flag, but it should have never been adopted by any of the States in the former Confederacy as anything "official" (as a flag to be flown on or outside State offices).
It was the first instance of "total war", in which the opposing army (the North) goes to war against an entire people (The South), taking over their homes, burning their cities, etc., rather than engaging the enemy on a battlefield, as in Gettysburg.
The average Southerner who took up arms against the North wasn't doing it to protect slavery, but to protect their homes and to protect their families. Most probably didn't have a strong grasp on the politics behind the war, but knew that their land was being taken, their people killed, and so fought.
And the Confederate Flag is the flag that they fought, and died, defending.
I can appreciate how a Southerner might take some pride in that flag, irrespective of Slavery, especially considering that reducing the causes of the Civil War to slavery is naively simplistic.
It was never the North's intention, at the start of the war, to end slavery. This was something that was done along the way for strategic reasons.
Remember that it was the American Flag, not the Confederate Flag, that flew for the vast majority of slavery's reign in the USA, but to associate the Stars and Stripes with that and with nothing else would be foolish -- and so too with the Confederate Flag.
And I'm Canadian. I have absolutely no horse in the race.
Wow. Just Wow. First off, the South started the war when they fired on Fort Sumnter. Secondly, the war was over slavery. Regardless of whether a particular Southerner owned slaves, they were fighting for a government whose chief policy was to continue that horrible caste like system.
I don't know how people can continue to defend this flag. It was a flag of a treasonous act & then a middle finger to the Civil Rights movement when it reappeared in the '50s & '60s. There is no defense of this flag. None. It shouldn't be flying anywhere on state grounds.
It wasn't an all powerful government presence, but corporate pressure that would lead to censorship.
Say something bad and you won't get thrown in jail, you'll just have millions of morons demanding an apology and companies bowing to the demands of these morons.
This is a country where some people refused to eat delicious Chick-fil-a over gay rights. We are batshit crazy.
Yes, this is the original Confederate Flag! What everyone thinks is the official flag (most Americans North AND South) isn't!
The "Southern Cross Flag" (the one that's being discussed) is the official Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It was rejected for a national flag (though it was used as a "canton", or part of the next two National Flags of the Confederacy.
The Confederacy had multiple Battle Flags/State Flags in use for the Civil War. I have no doubt that the popularity of Robert E. Lee was a factor in associating the Confederacy with the Southern Cross Flag, but it should have never been adopted by any of the States in the former Confederacy as anything "official" (as a flag to be flown on or outside State offices).
It wasn't an all powerful government presence, but corporate pressure that would lead to censorship.
Say something bad and you won't get thrown in jail, you'll just have millions of morons demanding an apology and companies bowing to the demands of these morons.
This is a country where some people refused to eat delicious Chick-fil-a over gay rights. We are batshit crazy.
this
And it's not that in broad and general terms these twitter warriors aren't "right" in their initial impulse. Often their causes are just. But a bully who believes he's bullying for the right reasons is still a bully. You can advocate for what you believe in without running your opponent (particularly when your opponent is an identifiable person) into the ground.
You're wrong. It's a damn kids show. As a kid that flag never symbolized racism to me. It was just a cool fucking car.
First post on the thread and it couldn't be said better. So ridiculous.
Having said all of that the Dukes of Hazzard was a silly show and there was no need to remove it from there. Then again they are in business and if they're getting enough pressure then thats just the market at work.
And I've never seen an episode.
Maybe they could put a trigger warning at the beginning of the show.
Or Seinfeld or pretty much any show.
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Things that were socially acceptable years ago can become socially unacceptable because of the recognition of what an item such as that flag represents. People can try to associate that flag with southern pride and heritage all they want but the truth is it represents the wrong side of the war against slavery. That flag is no better than the swastika, even though that has a better diverse use throughout history. No one would proudly sport a swastika now days unless you are trying to make a statement about your feelings about jews known.
You're wrong. It's a damn kids show. As a kid that flag never symbolized racism to me. It was just a cool fucking car.
Your entitled to your opinion. I have mine. What is a silly TV show, is seen as a re-enforcement of the watered down and sanitize version of Southern history. It makes it more acceptable to be OK with the symbol as a source of Southern pride, rather than what it is. I hope you can see that. Would you be OK with a German TV show with the symbol of a swastika on the roof, even if it is a silly TV show?
"Hey, we want to produce a comedy about a Nazi POW camp. The laughs write themselves!"
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In comment 12354449 nyblue56 said:
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Things that were socially acceptable years ago can become socially unacceptable because of the recognition of what an item such as that flag represents. People can try to associate that flag with southern pride and heritage all they want but the truth is it represents the wrong side of the war against slavery. That flag is no better than the swastika, even though that has a better diverse use throughout history. No one would proudly sport a swastika now days unless you are trying to make a statement about your feelings about jews known.
You're wrong. It's a damn kids show. As a kid that flag never symbolized racism to me. It was just a cool fucking car.
Your entitled to your opinion. I have mine. What is a silly TV show, is seen as a re-enforcement of the watered down and sanitize version of Southern history. It makes it more acceptable to be OK with the symbol as a source of Southern pride, rather than what it is. I hope you can see that. Would you be OK with a German TV show with the symbol of a swastika on the roof, even if it is a silly TV show?
I support any symbol, however offensive, on a car or anyone's personal property. Because I support free speech, even if I don't agree with it. That doesn't mean that companies can't decide not to show offensive material, but where do you draw the line?
"Hey, we want to produce a comedy about a Nazi POW camp. The laughs write themselves!"
Different time. And it made fun of the nazis.
Again it made fun of the nazis. But carry on, reminisce about the good old days.
It does not. Look at my original post. I clearly pointed out that times change. I think this is a normal reaction for these times, especially with a couple of generations that did not watch the show
"Hey, we want to produce a comedy about a Nazi POW camp. The laughs write themselves!"
A lot of people were very angry about Hogan's Heroes back when it came out. It's not like they brushed it off and were like, "It's a comedy, so it's OK"
The movie Autofocus, about the life and death of Bob Crane, deals with this somewhat. It's implied that Crane was partially blackballed due to starring in Hogan's Heroes.
then the American Flag.
Enjoy the weekend everyone and soak up the irony.
then the American Flag.
Enjoy the weekend everyone and soak up the irony.
Thats ridiculous about the American flag. How about just fly the american flag and put the confederate flag where it belongs..in the garbage.
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In comment 12354449 nyblue56 said:
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Things that were socially acceptable years ago can become socially unacceptable because of the recognition of what an item such as that flag represents. People can try to associate that flag with southern pride and heritage all they want but the truth is it represents the wrong side of the war against slavery. That flag is no better than the swastika, even though that has a better diverse use throughout history. No one would proudly sport a swastika now days unless you are trying to make a statement about your feelings about jews known.
You're wrong. It's a damn kids show. As a kid that flag never symbolized racism to me. It was just a cool fucking car.
Your entitled to your opinion. I have mine. What is a silly TV show, is seen as a re-enforcement of the watered down and sanitize version of Southern history. It makes it more acceptable to be OK with the symbol as a source of Southern pride, rather than what it is. I hope you can see that. Would you be OK with a German TV show with the symbol of a swastika on the roof, even if it is a silly TV show?
The show is satire. Comedians, sitcoms and plenty of other Hollywood material portray all kinds of offensive material. Where do you draw the line? It's fine to mindful of other peoples feelings, but there is a line, and this is the beginning of crossing it.
then the American Flag.
Enjoy the weekend everyone and soak up the irony.
What a ridiculous post. Seriously.
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are not far behind.
then the American Flag.
Enjoy the weekend everyone and soak up the irony.
Thats ridiculous about the American flag. How about just fly the american flag and put the confederate flag where it belongs..in the garbage.
I was being someone flippant, it's not my view, and I support the removal of the confederate flag from public buildings, but when you branch out into commerce or entertainment you venture to an area I prefer people not tell me what I can buy or watch.
Here is an article from earlier this year - pre SC Church Shooting:
The Associated Students of University of California (ASUCI) passed a resolution March 3 that would remove the Stars & Stripes along with every other flag from the lobby of a complex housing the offices of the student government.
“Designing a culturally inclusive space aims to remove barriers that create undue effort and separation by planning and designing spaces that enable everyone to participate equally and confidentially,” read the resolution authored by Matthew Guevara......
recently, post SC shooting, there have been petitions being floated around to ban the American flag and the motion has been picking up steam. Google it, tons of links from reputable sources (and some not).
it's sickening to me.
Those two books have long been in the sights or people racially offended.
sometimes sadly people are opportunistic, strike while the iron is hot.
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are not far behind.
then the American Flag.
Enjoy the weekend everyone and soak up the irony.
What a ridiculous post. Seriously.
If you're so serious, what is ridiculous about it? or just be your usual sackless passive aggressive self and move on. I don't care.
Also, people should get off your lawn
Before my time, but even before the PC era, and as a child, I found re-runs of F Troop to be uncomfortably racist.
recently, post SC shooting, there have been petitions being floated around to ban the American flag and the motion has been picking up steam. Google it, tons of links from reputable sources (and some not).
it's sickening to me. [/quote]
The fact that you have to point out that there are reputable sources tells me that they aren't reputable sources. Fact is there is no movement to remove the american flag and any such requests are disregarded as they should be.
Again this is about the flag of a treasonous group that also represents racism. This has nothing to do with the american flag and other conservative wackos have used that same "slippery slope" argument to defend keeping the confederate flag up.
As far as what private companies want to do and how they want to be represented that is up to them. If they don't want the headache of dealing with any complaints then they'll bail on Gone with the wind and the Dukes of Hazzard. If I were in their position I wouldn't but if thats what they feel is better for their business model then how can you blame them.
At least they got rid of the Dukes of Hazard. That's gonna fix things.
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In comment 12354588 pjcas18 said:
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are not far behind.
then the American Flag.
Enjoy the weekend everyone and soak up the irony.
What a ridiculous post. Seriously.
If you're so serious, what is ridiculous about it? or just be your usual sackless passive aggressive self and move on. I don't care.
Ban 'To Kill a Mockingbird'? And the American flag?
Ridiculous. Dude. Seriously
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In comment 12354606 SanFranNowNCGiantsFan said:
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In comment 12354588 pjcas18 said:
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are not far behind.
then the American Flag.
Enjoy the weekend everyone and soak up the irony.
What a ridiculous post. Seriously.
If you're so serious, what is ridiculous about it? or just be your usual sackless passive aggressive self and move on. I don't care.
Ban 'To Kill a Mockingbird'? And the American flag?
Ridiculous. Dude. Seriously
Those are real issues, dude.
It's not banning but they're giving ridiculous publicity to a group of aholes who are making a big show of burning it. Those people, IMO, are no different in spirit than those who fly the Confederate flag with all ill intent. And yet, we give them air time.
So you think because I'm saying there are some reputable sources that means to you there are none?
go fuck yourself too.
I have no, zero, nil, nada issue with removing the confederate flag from public buildings. I 100% support it. It should have been done long ago or never been there in the first place.
removing it from entertainment, commerce, etc. is yes, in fact a slippery slope because IMO constitutes censorship. And I view that lens as having no defined end (who says what is offensive and what isn't).
From what I read Amazon and Walmart (and Sears) removed confederate flag merchandise (yet still sell swastika merchandise) at the urging (directive) of the White House and the NAACP.
http://www.uwsp.edu/acadaff/NewFacultyResources/NFSRacialMicroaggressions_Table.pdf - ( New Window )
Ridiculous. Lulz worthy. Totally an extreme reaction.
Imo this new fad microaggression stuff is the biggest crock of bs in recent times.
and if you don't think other questionable books like To Kill a Mockingbird or Gone with the Wind are in the cross hairs then you should read a little.
they are far more offensive in content to many than a flag on a car.
Tip of the cap.
Try to play it off as sarcasm. I've seen your posts before.
Amazon Swastika Merchandise - ( New Window )
removing it from entertainment, commerce, etc. is yes, in fact a slippery slope because IMO constitutes censorship. And I view that lens as having no defined end (who says what is offensive and what isn't).
From what I read Amazon and Walmart (and Sears) removed confederate flag merchandise (yet still sell swastika merchandise) at the urging (directive) of the White House and the NAACP.
[/quote]
And thats where the craziness comes in. The White House is not urging Amazon or whatever to remove it. Where did you read that? Newsmax? Infowars? This is conspiracy theory nonsense that is part of the crowd that wants to use dog whistles and say look white people are under attack. Christians are under attack. Christmas is under attack. And ALL of that is complete NONSENSE.
There is NO SLIPPERY SLOPE!!!!! A company has a right to DECIDE what kind of image it wants to put it out and if that means axing a stupid show from the 80s then so be it.
River Mike : 8:32 pm : link : reply
human cruelty on this scale and for so long. While here, we agonize over the possibility of hurting someone's feelings.
Tip of the cap.
Try to play it off as sarcasm. I've seen your posts before.
No, I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being flippant (maybe google the difference and come back and apologize - or not - I don't care) and I said it in the very next post if you, as I called you out for already, bothered to read before frothing at the mouth.
Ok, you've seen my post before. whatever that means. I always say 100% of the time exactly what I feel in real words, I don't pussy around with passive aggression like you, if you have something to say then say it. If not, then back off. You're the worst kind of shit stirrer, one with no balls.
BTW, I was watching "Whats Happening Now"... Bunch of Uncle Tom's?? Stop it...
I dont know if it is a "racist statement" nor do I know that that is what that PDF says. But I do know that the phrase is often invoked as a response to affirmative action.
It has been said to me by people who effectively meant "I was better but the other person got the job because of ___." In my experience both times it was where a woman got something (law school journal editor, and partner at law firm respectively) over another candidate because of their gender. And at least with respect to the partnership issue, it was total bullshit; the woman was a superstar who clients loved and the guy was just solid and very hard working (and made partner a year later).
removing it from entertainment, commerce, etc. is yes, in fact a slippery slope because IMO constitutes censorship. And I view that lens as having no defined end (who says what is offensive and what isn't).
From what I read Amazon and Walmart (and Sears) removed confederate flag merchandise (yet still sell swastika merchandise) at the urging (directive) of the White House and the NAACP.
And thats where the craziness comes in. The White House is not urging Amazon or whatever to remove it. Where did you read that? Newsmax? Infowars? This is conspiracy theory nonsense that is part of the crowd that wants to use dog whistles and say look white people are under attack. Christians are under attack. Christmas is under attack. And ALL of that is complete NONSENSE.
There is NO SLIPPERY SLOPE!!!!! A company has a right to DECIDE what kind of image it wants to put it out and if that means axing a stupid show from the 80s then so be it. [/quote]
Amazon customer services reps 100% - no source debate - told customers they were ordered by the Federal government to remove those items for sale. It is documented in online chats with the Amazon reps.
The federal government (via Press secretary Josh Earnest) denies this, so it comes down to a who do you believe. I would not put it past Amazon to lie, but my view on politicians is they usually lie. So I think there could be some truth to it.
My point is Amazon no longer sells confederate flags, but they sell ISIS flags, swastikas, Hezbollah and Hamas flags. How is that not offensive to the family of a fallen American soldier in Iraq to see these terrorist flags? That's my point. Who is the arbiter of what is offensive and where does it end.
My stance is make it all available for sale, I'd rather see someone in a confederate flag t-shirt so I know who he is, rather than not knowing and finding out later.
Keep bringing the lulz though.
Keep bringing the lulz though.
I usually stay off political threads, I should follow my own rules more. It's like tic-tac-toe --> global thermo nuclear war in war games. there can be no winner.
Shhhh they can't handle those types of allegations. That, and, they support their causes.
Exactly. that's my point. it's arbitrary (to an extent). And I wouldn't say I'm outraged, i'm slightly bored on a Thursday night, and interested in this topic.
I agree with Steve. By over-reaching, this type of ban takes an important issue and trivializes it.
One thing I have noticed, though, is that most people find bans like this ridiculous but when it comes to something they find offensive, they support a ban that is equally absurd.
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University of Wisconsin: “I believe the most qualified person should get the job.” is a racist statement. http://www.uwsp.edu/acadaff/NewFacultyResources/NFSRacialMicroaggressions_Table.pdf - ( New Window )
I dont know if it is a "racist statement" nor do I know that that is what that PDF says. But I do know that the phrase is often invoked as a response to affirmative action.
It has been said to me by people who effectively meant "I was better but the other person got the job because of ___." In my experience both times it was where a woman got something (law school journal editor, and partner at law firm respectively) over another candidate because of their gender. And at least with respect to the partnership issue, it was total bullshit; the woman was a superstar who clients loved and the guy was just solid and very hard working (and made partner a year later).
Look, with respect to minority preference in hiring, it happens. Not going to argue the right or wrong, but it happens. My ex-wife is from Puerto Rico. She worked in clinical research and tried for the better part of a year to get into Pfizer ... resumes, letters, phone calls, got nowhere. One day I said "honey, call and ask to speak to the person in charge of minority hiring". She did, was put through immediately and was offered a job within a week. I have other anecdotes including my son. And when I worked as an instructor for an aircraft manufacturer, I was told I absolutely could not fail a minority. But I'm not promulgating or complaining about the practice just stating that it is a fact
I'd obviously detest the people buying them, but this is America. Let them buy them and get the hell they'll inevitably face.
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It's that they would sell Isis, Hezbollah, and Hamas flags. That's pretty fucked up, as would be those who actually purchased them.
Exactly. that's my point. it's arbitrary (to an extent). And I wouldn't say I'm outraged, i'm slightly bored on a Thursday night, and interested in this topic.
This is just my opinion, but there is far too much resentment to affirmative action. People dont lead perfect lives and just assume that it wasnt their fault. They didnt get into college because a black person took their spot. They didnt get a promotion because the company needed to hire a woman. Etc. I've defended companies from these sorts of claims and it's almost always bullshit. People who are are chronically late and have bad evaluation after bad evaluation suddenly think they're management material. People who are bottom 10% in sales who think they got fired for age/race/gender issues.
Link - ( New Window )
Because it IS that well liked.
I do remember when the traditionalist class shit its collective pants over Murphy Brown having a fictional out of wedlock child, and when Roseanne had a lesbian kiss. So lets not pretend that it is only sensitive lefties who cant handle shit on TV.
People get up in arms about all kinds of things I dont understand. There are schools where kids cant wear baggy pants. Everyone has their bugaboo.
"Hey, we want to produce a comedy about a Nazi POW camp. The laughs write themselves!"
It was a comedic version of Stalag 17. It was relatively successful. Especially in reruns
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I've always wondered how the hell Hogan's Heroes was pitched?
"Hey, we want to produce a comedy about a Nazi POW camp. The laughs write themselves!"
It was a comedic version of Stalag 17. It was relatively successful. Especially in reruns
I know that. My point was strictly about it's genesis. Can you imagine trying to pitch a comedy about a Nazi POW camp?
Say something bad and you won't get thrown in jail, you'll just have millions of morons demanding an apology and companies bowing to the demands of these morons.
This is a country where some people refused to eat delicious Chick-fil-a over gay rights. We are batshit crazy.
Buy anything made in China and you're actively supporting slavery.
Brad, I was totally with you until your last sentence. People do not choose to view the flag that way. Racists go out of there way to make it clear that they consider it their symbol. I am just taking them at there word.... As for this history of Southern pride? Most of these flags went up in the 60's as a way of expressing "F" you to the negros who were acting way too uppity at the time, what with asking to share water fountains and such.... Sorry, but I do not consider the sixties to be "history."
I don't give one fuck either way about the DOH, but I can see that some people get pretty upset when they have to think about race at all. Lots of privileged bullshit on this thread.
lonk - ( New Window )
If you aren't smart enough to figure out the context of the one using the symbol, you should probably just shut the fuck up about symbolism in general.
That flag has meant many things to many different types of people, and not any one of those opinions are openly wrong on their face, or ultimately just. When used as an object symbol of hate, that context is clear, and it's the hate you rightly object too.
Should State institutions stop using it, maybe. I'm open to that arguement and I feel like it's a matter for the people of those states to decide for themselves through their legislature. Should the General Lee car being removed from toy production or as a fixture on syndicated TV be held up as as some form of progress. Maybe if you're braindamaged.
Um there is context in this thread too. Maybe you should look at the OP again?!?
People get up in arms about all kinds of things I dont understand. There are schools where kids cant wear baggy pants. Everyone has their bugaboo.
It's not a strange decision at all. It's the same reason that Amazon and other outlets pulled the flags. It's the social justice warrior crusade gone wild and woe to the organization that does not toe the line. BTW, the toy cars of General Lee were also stopped.
Amazon customer services reps 100% - no source debate - told customers they were ordered by the Federal government to remove those items for sale. It is documented in online chats with the Amazon reps.
In my experience, Amazon customer service reps know exactly two things: Jack and Shit. If you ask them anything outside of the scripted responses/flows they will say anything to end the call as soon as possible.
That's what I said. Amazon is just protecting themselves from the SJW brigade.
This is just my opinion, but there is far too much resentment to affirmative action. People dont lead perfect lives and just assume that it wasnt their fault. They didnt get into college because a black person took their spot. They didnt get a promotion because the company needed to hire a woman. Etc. I've defended companies from these sorts of claims and it's almost always bullshit. People who are are chronically late and have bad evaluation after bad evaluation suddenly think they're management material. People who are bottom 10% in sales who think they got fired for age/race/gender issues. Link - ( New Window )
Deej, no disagreement there. I have no doubt that bias in favor of whites exists, whether consciously or unconsciously. My only point was that institutional policy favoring minorities also exists. I think anyone who denies either one is simply wrong.
[quote]People dont lead perfect lives and just assume that it wasnt their fault. They didnt get into college because a black person took their spot. They didnt get a promotion because the company needed to hire a woman[quote],
When I was younger, I was passed over for several promotions that I strongly felt I was the best person for. Back then, in the middle of the civil rights movement and debate, it occurred to me that if I were black, there would be no way to convince me that I wasn't the victim of discrimination. It's human nature, pure and simple. Of course discrimination occurs, but not every occurrence of perceived unfairness is due to discrimination. Sometimes life is just unfair no matter who you are.
http://www.alibaba.com/products/F0/us_flag_confederate.html?spm=a2700.7724838.a271qf.48.yZvtr3
And while Amazon won't "sell" you CBF merchandise, they are HAPPY to rent out episodes of Dukes of Hazzard on Amazon Prime!!!
Don't call us hypocrites!
So is Sears!
Please buy anything from us...please! - ( New Window )
+1.
The pendulum often swings too far in 1 direction or another because some people have a compulsion to feel that they are, for lack of a better word, "cool". I always thought that played a large part in Jane Fonda's decision to "man" a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun way back when.
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Take something well meaning and generally positive. Turn it into a social media crusade. Well-meaning, well intentioned crusade gathers momentum, runs over all before it. Great. Then the digital mob, undated, pushed it further and into non-obvious directions until lucid-thinking, well-meaning people step back and say 'wait, this isn't what I signed on for...' And by then we end up with death threats and harassment of otherwise innocent folks and campaigns to airbrush a flag off the top of a vehicle because we in our infinite wisdom know something audiences in the 70's and 80's did not.
+1.
The pendulum often swings too far in 1 direction or another because some people have a compulsion to feel that they are, for lack of a better word, "cool". I always thought that played a large part in Jane Fonda's decision to "man" a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun way back when.
This all reminds me of the Seinfeld episode about not wearing the AIDS ribbon. It all makes me want go out and hang my Confederate flags from front porch just to be "uncool."
The average Southerner who took up arms against the North wasn't doing it to protect slavery, but to protect their homes and to protect their families. Most probably didn't have a strong grasp on the politics behind the war, but knew that their land was being taken, their people killed, and so fought.
And the Confederate Flag is the flag that they fought, and died, defending.
I can appreciate how a Southerner might take some pride in that flag, irrespective of Slavery, especially considering that reducing the causes of the Civil War to slavery is naively simplistic.
It was never the North's intention, at the start of the war, to end slavery. This was something that was done along the way for strategic reasons.
Remember that it was the American Flag, not the Confederate Flag, that flew for the vast majority of slavery's reign in the USA, but to associate the Stars and Stripes with that and with nothing else would be foolish -- and so too with the Confederate Flag.
And I'm Canadian. I have absolutely no horse in the race.
Yes, this is the original Confederate Flag! What everyone thinks is the official flag (most Americans North AND South) isn't!
The "Southern Cross Flag" (the one that's being discussed) is the official Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It was rejected for a national flag (though it was used as a "canton", or part of the next two National Flags of the Confederacy.
The Confederacy had multiple Battle Flags/State Flags in use for the Civil War. I have no doubt that the popularity of Robert E. Lee was a factor in associating the Confederacy with the Southern Cross Flag, but it should have never been adopted by any of the States in the former Confederacy as anything "official" (as a flag to be flown on or outside State offices).
The average Southerner who took up arms against the North wasn't doing it to protect slavery, but to protect their homes and to protect their families. Most probably didn't have a strong grasp on the politics behind the war, but knew that their land was being taken, their people killed, and so fought.
And the Confederate Flag is the flag that they fought, and died, defending.
I can appreciate how a Southerner might take some pride in that flag, irrespective of Slavery, especially considering that reducing the causes of the Civil War to slavery is naively simplistic.
It was never the North's intention, at the start of the war, to end slavery. This was something that was done along the way for strategic reasons.
Remember that it was the American Flag, not the Confederate Flag, that flew for the vast majority of slavery's reign in the USA, but to associate the Stars and Stripes with that and with nothing else would be foolish -- and so too with the Confederate Flag.
And I'm Canadian. I have absolutely no horse in the race.
Wow. Just Wow. First off, the South started the war when they fired on Fort Sumnter. Secondly, the war was over slavery. Regardless of whether a particular Southerner owned slaves, they were fighting for a government whose chief policy was to continue that horrible caste like system.
I don't know how people can continue to defend this flag. It was a flag of a treasonous act & then a middle finger to the Civil Rights movement when it reappeared in the '50s & '60s. There is no defense of this flag. None. It shouldn't be flying anywhere on state grounds.
Say something bad and you won't get thrown in jail, you'll just have millions of morons demanding an apology and companies bowing to the demands of these morons.
This is a country where some people refused to eat delicious Chick-fil-a over gay rights. We are batshit crazy.
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Yes, this is the original Confederate Flag! What everyone thinks is the official flag (most Americans North AND South) isn't!
The "Southern Cross Flag" (the one that's being discussed) is the official Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It was rejected for a national flag (though it was used as a "canton", or part of the next two National Flags of the Confederacy.
The Confederacy had multiple Battle Flags/State Flags in use for the Civil War. I have no doubt that the popularity of Robert E. Lee was a factor in associating the Confederacy with the Southern Cross Flag, but it should have never been adopted by any of the States in the former Confederacy as anything "official" (as a flag to be flown on or outside State offices).
John, I made similar points before. No one cares.
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It wasn't an all powerful government presence, but corporate pressure that would lead to censorship.
Say something bad and you won't get thrown in jail, you'll just have millions of morons demanding an apology and companies bowing to the demands of these morons.
This is a country where some people refused to eat delicious Chick-fil-a over gay rights. We are batshit crazy.
this
And it's not that in broad and general terms these twitter warriors aren't "right" in their initial impulse. Often their causes are just. But a bully who believes he's bullying for the right reasons is still a bully. You can advocate for what you believe in without running your opponent (particularly when your opponent is an identifiable person) into the ground.