NFT: Conservatives and liberals favor reducing prison terms

Their track record on being in touch with conservative causes and opinions is almost unparalleled. Only MSNBC is better.

is the largest of any country in the world. The US has the highest incarceration rate of any developed country. The yearly cost is 74 billion dollars, more than the GDP of 133 countries. The two largest for profit prison companies pulled down 2.53 billion in profits.

Prison terms need to be reduced. Petty drug offenders should get treatment, not jail. The prisons are serving as holding pens for the mentally ill who also need treatment, not incarceration. This is common sense. But don't count on anything changing. There is too much money being made.

In comment 12356310 BillT said:

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Their track record on being in touch with conservative causes and opinions is almost unparalleled. Only MSNBC is better.

Good point, they're clearly manufacturing quotes from conservatives. And Nathan Deal, Republican Governor of Georgia and prison reform leader, is clearly also not a real conservative.

Used to be that GOP/Conservatives were very much the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" party, but I think that's changing. Partially because I think libertarian ideology has had at least some effect on the GOP mainstream and partially because it's started to penetrate just how expensive and wasteful the prison-industrial complex is.

On the other side, there are plenty of lock-em-up lib/Dems. Some see drugs as a serious problem amongst the poor/inner city and the drug war helping solve it.

I see this as a real opportunity for reform, if we can avoid framing it in a left/right ideological light.

lasts. "Law and Order" has been a bread and butter issue for Repbulicans sine the late 60's. Hard to believe they don't go off on Obama at some point for letting criminals out of jail. And pols like Deal would then fall in line with some variant of the 'right idea but done all wrong' excuse.

The Koch brothers and some of these other billionaire libertarian types are nominally with liberals on this and other issues like gay rights and abortion but push comes to shove they will spend their money to elect pols who support them on taxes/deregulation no matter how bad they are on these other issues. Would be surprised if that changes any time soon.

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Used to be that GOP/Conservatives were very much the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" party, but I think that's changing. Partially because I think libertarian ideology has had at least some effect on the GOP mainstream and partially because it's started to penetrate just how expensive and wasteful the prison-industrial complex is.

Maybe you're right on the cost angle. That makes sense but I still think it's a tough sell to the conservative base.

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On the other side, there are plenty of lock-em-up lib/Dems. Some see drugs as a serious problem amongst the poor/inner city and the drug war helping solve it.

Mostly this is reactive. In the 60's and 70's libs were too slow to respond to rising crime and paid a huge political price. Younger lib pols who came of age in the '80's and '90's fell over themselves trying to look tough, mostly to the bemusement of conservatives who still successfully painted them as soft. With crime on the decline for years now, I think most Dem pols will follow Obama's lead here unless he gets burned.

back on BBI?

In comment 12356311 HomerJonesredux said:

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is the largest of any country in the world. The US has the highest incarceration rate of any developed country. The yearly cost is 74 billion dollars, more than the GDP of 133 countries. The two largest for profit prison companies pulled down 2.53 billion in profits. Prison terms need to be reduced. Petty drug offenders should get treatment, not jail. The prisons are serving as holding pens for the mentally ill who also need treatment, not incarceration. This is common sense. But don't count on anything changing. There is too much money being made.

Your stats are not wrong. Though I question the "treatment" aspect from a funding standpoint.

That said, there is a direct relationship between high school drop out rates and incarceration rates in this country. We do a disservice to the majority of our population of young people by not promoting skilled careers across disciplines in order to facilitate retention in high schools, graduation, and economy supporting citizens.

Now listen, I study this topic for a living and have done so for well over a decade. And much of what I do is based on the topic. All I can say is that I'm intimately involved with DOEs, DOCs, hiring authorities,etc...all the way down to individuals.

I'm not going to argue any points here. Especially with people like Radar. The bottom line is that we have a serious perception problem in this country when it comes to education, articulation into industry or post secondary education and the idea that everyone should go to college.

For example, Louisiana has the highest drop out rate amongst high schoolers. And guess what... The highest incarceration rate in the country. They've managed to create a pipeline. It's disturbing.

I've been to Angola. St. Martinsville. Hunt. Alex. Juvy. Multiple states. You name it. And it's all the same sad story.

Prison term reductions are far beyond the actual problem and seem to be political hot points focused on anything but the real issues facing our country.

and while I've never been to prison, from what I've observed the prison experience has changed quite a bit over the century. For example our recent escapees were living in the honor hall, cooking their own food, banging their boss, having free reign over their block, rewiring their cells. Sure this may be an isolated incident, but it seems like the prison experience has gotten somewhat soft. Have you watched any of the Locked Up shows? They go behind the bars and live the lives of inmates. What surprised me the most was the kinds of privileges, cash for the commissary where they can buy and trade all sorts of good stuff, tv's, cable, drugs.

I hope it gets done.

I work one day a week with prisoners from many facilities including Danamora.For the most part I feel sorry for them.Certainly taking away privileges like TV will just lead to more fights and costs.That said drugs are curse.Anyone selling drugs to children or drugs that get diverted to children should get the max no mercy for drug dealers.

on this issue

There has been a reduction in programs. If nothing else, effective programs can help to keep the prison population functional...and peaceful.

At the street level, it's been my experience that kids sell drugs to other kids and adults, just as much if not more so than adults selling drugs to kids.

Excellent point - re: skilled careers and whether there is a need for everyone to go to college.

And, even for those who go to college, given the enormous debt burden they acquire, shouldn't we be examining whether college needs to be 120 credits, including 20-30 credits of irrelevant electives?

If we trimmed the fact, coupled with the availability of AP courses - college degrees could very easily be obtained within 3 years.

In the last 40 years the prison industrial complex has become one of the nations largest businesses. While reducing excessive terms and eradicating mandatory minimum sentencing is a step in the right direction other social constructs will need to be involved. Excellent point about th connection between drop out and incarceration rates. Exactly what I'm talking about. Much of the work needed to fix the prison system will occur outside of actual prisons.

There will be a lot of resistance however, from prison big wigs to the politicians in their pockets. Look at former PA governor Tom Corbett. The education budget was an ongoing crisis throughout his entire tenure as governor. Secondary Education saw more budget cuts than any area with countless schools being closed. The state university system saw its budget literally cut in half. Other areas such as social services were hit hard too. In fact nearly every budget was cut. Except the prison system. The state corrections department got a 10% raise, putting their annual budget at 2 billion. And since the 25 state correctional institutions PA already has isn't a enough he also signed off on the building of yet another state prison, this one to the tune of half a billion dollars. Cut education, social services, community programs, etc and build more jails. As you said, they've created a pipeline.

There's a great documentary called "Prison Town, USA" that not only does an exceptional job of looking at the prison system from all perspectives (inmates, Correction Officers, the families of both) but exposes the shady business dealings, contracts, and broken promises that contractors make when making a bid to put a prison in the town. Very well done and sheds a lot of light on the issues. I highly recommend tracking it down if you're interested in the topic.

community policing is what has led to dramatic reductions in crime rates. No doubt there have been some mistakes. Then again, we have tried rehabilitation before. There was a time when murderers got parole after just a few years in prison. And "non violent" drug offenders got slaps on the wrist. Systems can always be updated and reformed. Perhaps some updating could be used. By and large though, the people that are in prison are in there for a good reason......they are vermin. I'm not really too sympathetic to some drug dealer who makes loads of money and is not convicted of a violent crime. Dealing that poison leads to plenty of violence. Even if it didn't, everyone who deals that shit knows you are facing heavy time after about the third time you get caught. They have plenty of chances and deserve every year they get in most cases.

the great sound byte of the prison reformer. Of course the non-violent drug offender is in the vast majority of cases a subsequent offender if he's doing a lengthy stretch, and likely moving a fair amount if the federal government cares enough to try him (especially now). And many "non-violent drug offenders" have prior histories that include violence, especially when they're convicted in state courts, which is why they get lengthy stretches in the first place. And the drug trade is itself beset by violence and property crime at every turn, along with the ordinary ills of addiction and overdose we axiomatically associate with drugs. There are sympathetic defendants and inmates, to be sure. There are folks who are working to put their lives back together, often simply together. But so much of this is driven by anecdotes, sound bytes and sentiment. If you want to take a bite out of crime, start addressing poverty, illegitimacy and the umpteen other factors that make crime as a career path a viable option.

that make them feel better in no way improves society. It does, however, justify police budgets, allows for the confiscation of private property which the confiscators keep for themselves, generates revenue for private prison corporations, and allows politicians to pretend they're "tough on crime". Until legislators no longer receive financial and political benefit from these other stakeholders, the war against drugs will continue, drug gangs will continue to rule underclass neighborhoods, and millions of American lives will be destroyed by the so-called "criminal justice" system.

In comment 12356560 GeofromNJ said:

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that make them feel better in no way improves society. It does, however, justify police budgets, allows for the confiscation of private property which the confiscators keep for themselves, generates revenue for private prison corporations, and allows politicians to pretend they're "tough on crime". Until legislators no longer receive financial and political benefit from these other stakeholders, the war against drugs will continue, drug gangs will continue to rule underclass neighborhoods, and millions of American lives will be destroyed by the so-called "criminal justice" system.

The lengthy sentences are generally reserved not for the end user but for the pusher, particularly the serial pusher and the guy moving a lot of volume. And overdose deaths, particularly from heroin, have skyrocketed in dozens of states in America. But go ahead and slay that imagined enemy.

I am in favor of letting violent criminals (and those who became violent from doing time) back on the street.

Want to shorten drug USE offenses...fine.

In comment 12356608 EricJ said:

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I am in favor of letting violent criminals (and those who became violent from doing time) back on the street. Want to shorten drug USE offenses...fine.

So wait, we're accepting that the original reason we sent them there was flawed (I don't) but we want to leave them there because they became violent in the interim?

is finding a way to reintegrate former prisoners into the workforce. Until we find a way of giving these folks a second chance they will have no choice but to return to crime after serving their time in order to make a living.

In that regard, "ban the box" statutes that prohibit certain employers from asking if prospective employees have ever been convicted of a crime is a start. If i recall correctly the EEOC has weighed in on the issue as well under a disparate impact theory.

Most must be done, but I think that society has recognized the problem, which is always encouraging.

In comment 12357098 Hammer said:

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is finding a way to reintegrate former prisoners into the workforce. Until we find a way of giving these folks a second chance they will have no choice but to return to crime after serving their time in order to make a living. In that regard, "ban the box" statutes that prohibit certain employers from asking if prospective employees have ever been convicted of a crime is a start. If i recall correctly the EEOC has weighed in on the issue as well under a disparate impact theory. Most must be done, but I think that society has recognized the problem, which is always encouraging.

You want to reintegrate but people have a general right to be free of crime. With recidivism rates well over 70% and highest for property criminals, why shouldn't employers be allowed to ask?

In comment 12357120 Dunedin81 said:

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In comment 12357098 Hammer said: Quote: is finding a way to reintegrate former prisoners into the workforce. Until we find a way of giving these folks a second chance they will have no choice but to return to crime after serving their time in order to make a living. In that regard, "ban the box" statutes that prohibit certain employers from asking if prospective employees have ever been convicted of a crime is a start. If i recall correctly the EEOC has weighed in on the issue as well under a disparate impact theory. Most must be done, but I think that society has recognized the problem, which is always encouraging. You want to reintegrate but people have a general right to be free of crime. With recidivism rates well over 70% and highest for property criminals, why shouldn't employers be allowed to ask?

My understanding is that recidivism is a result, to some extent at the very least, of formerly incarcerated individuals being unsuccessful in securing employment.

Further, the "check the box" statutes allow certain employers seeking to fill positions that require a higher level of trust to inquire as to applicants conviction history. My limited understanding of those laws is that an employer who is seeking to fill a mere factory position is not allowed to ask but an employer seeking to fill a "financial" type position is not.

The rights of employers to hire trustworthy must be balanced with societies desire, and need, to give formerly incarcerated individuals a fighting chance to make a fresh start. In my mind that "fresh start" opportunity is somewhat similar to bankruptcy.

if there violent criminals lock them up, there's already murderers doing a year on.a first offense in certain states. You can rob a house in CA and get caught. Then rob the same house later in the day when you get out. I don't care what what the percentages are. And nobody who is a victim of crime cares what color the criminal is, they just want to be protected from these scumbags.

who want to go straight, but I think we're being optimistic if we think that's a majority. It's strange, the recidivism rates for violent and particularly sex crimes are among the lowest (though still very high) but the crimes are so serious that even the lower rate is intolerably high. A thief is a thief is a thief, the vast majority will get caught (not to speak of those who don't) again shortly after release, but we tend not to punish theft harshly, presumably because the impact of those crimes is deemed to be more easily repaired.

the HR guy wanted me to interview a person who had been in jail for forging checks.

Sorry, but no, that is not going to happen.

bankruptcy. Not by a long shot.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there are a lot prisoners in the federal system on the basis of a low weight possession conviction. And a number of states have established a "drug court" system to attempt to deal with those arrests without incarceration. I know Chris Christie significantly expanded that program in New Jersey.

As cited above, another problem with the prison system is that it has become a dumping ground for the mentally ill. These people may need to be confined, but the confinement should take place at a mental health facility. The stain of Willowbrook has led to a significant reduction in the number of those facilities instead of what was truly needed, reform.

Finally, I hope there is no reduction with respect to violent crimes.

for defense attorneys. Do you pursue a NGBROI defense, even one with merit, if the defendant is likely to spend more time in a secure mental health facility than he would spend in jail/prison?

In comment 12357438 Dunedin81 said:

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for defense attorneys. Do you pursue a NGBROI defense, even one with merit, if the defendant is likely to spend more time in a secure mental health facility than he would spend in jail/prison?

Made more difficult by the shortage of secure mental health facilities.