affecting his hitting? I'd like to think its that and not him just regressing, because even if he was playing gold glove defense, his bat is still a liability right now.
He has a torn ligament in his elbow not shoulder. He essentially needs Tommy John but can play through it for a while. His arm is a noodle until it gets fixed though.
Is it affecting his hitting though? Has he been asked about that? I'd have to imagine yes.
I don't know. Lagares peripherals always pointed to his numbers to come crashing down somewhat. I don't think anyone expected him to be THIS bad though. Maybe he's coming out of his funk though. He had a couple key hits today. The guy also covers a ton of ground in CF. I think we need him to finish out the year and get Tommy John as soon as the season is over.
i also think mets will strategicly adjust there rotation coming out of Â
affecting his hitting? I'd like to think its that and not him just regressing, because even if he was playing gold glove defense, his bat is still a liability right now.
He has a torn ligament in his elbow not shoulder. He essentially needs Tommy John but can play through it for a while. His arm is a noodle until it gets fixed though.
Is it affecting his hitting though? Has he been asked about that? I'd have to imagine yes.
probably a bit but the main reason he has struggled is with wright out,he has more pressure to produce offensively
Thor went 133 last year and Matz went 140ish. That puts them around 170 this year. deGrom can go a little over 200. Apparently the sweet spot for Harvey is around 185.
'its not about them liking it its about saving innings or else there going to have to be shutdown before end of season'
That innings excuse is crap. They want to keep Niese active so they can trade him. The second he's gone they're going to a five man rotation. I'f I'm wrong I'll come back on here and say so.
Harvey is pissed about the 6 man rotation, says that it throws off his prep and mechanics. Apparently others feel the same but won't say so publicly. The Mets had better be careful with Harvey. They are pissing him off and he isn't shy about vocalizing it. Add in Boras as agent and good luck keeping him here.
I'm not sure I can totally disagree with Harvey on this Â
It would be one thing if they strongly believed in the idea of a 6th man rotation, but to suddenly spring it on the staff, then back off from it, then go right back to it, it makes you look like as an organization, you don't have a plan.
No pitcher wants to be thrown off his routine. They're creatures of habit.
RE: Matz' curveball is a thing of beauty. An old fashioned Â
Harvey is pissed about the 6 man rotation, says that it throws off his prep and mechanics. Apparently others feel the same but won't say so publicly. The Mets had better be careful with Harvey. They are pissing him off and he isn't shy about vocalizing it. Add in Boras as agent and good luck keeping him here.
At this point I wish Harvey would just quit griping, deal with it and concentrate on pitching the best he can to help his team.
The guy is starting to remind me of a high maintenance pretty girlfriend. Eventually the personality starts to override the beauty.
This front office has made a habit of putting players in bad positions Â
due to their own inability to get things done. I also wish Harvey (and Collins) would keep a little quieter when frustrations boil over, but in a lot of cases they aren't wrong. Flores turned into an experiment at SS because for 4 years they haven't been able to upgrade Ruben Tejada. They've shifted in and out of the 6 man twice, the first time because they had been unable to dump Dillon Gee in the offseason (which they will now likely have to do for nothing since that relationship became so toxic). They put Montero in the BP short term, which was something he wasn't good at and broke his momentum from ST. Last year it was going through ST and a month of the season with Duda & Ike, though thankfully they were able to resolve that one pretty quick. I guess my point is this FO likes to hedge and when their long term plans aren't coming to fruition they make a lot of short term "bandaid" moves that contort players into abnormal positions. Many employees would find it enormously frustrating if they woke up, went into work and found out their role had been changed to something they didn't normally do.
and of course with the Mets there are plenty of things to legitimately question. But even if something the team chooses (supposedly for the overall good of the team) makes something harder on the individual just be a pro about it and man up and deal with it. These past couple of seasons Harvey really comes off as a whiner when things don't go exactly as he likes. If he truly wants to be the leader of the staff he needs to work on his maturity.
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I also wish Harvey (and Collins) would keep a little quieter when frustrations boil over, but in a lot of cases they aren't wrong.
due to their own inability to get things done. I also wish Harvey (and Collins) would keep a little quieter when frustrations boil over, but in a lot of cases they aren't wrong. Flores turned into an experiment at SS because for 4 years they haven't been able to upgrade Ruben Tejada. They've shifted in and out of the 6 man twice, the first time because they had been unable to dump Dillon Gee in the offseason (which they will now likely have to do for nothing since that relationship became so toxic). They put Montero in the BP short term, which was something he wasn't good at and broke his momentum from ST. Last year it was going through ST and a month of the season with Duda & Ike, though thankfully they were able to resolve that one pretty quick. I guess my point is this FO likes to hedge and when their long term plans aren't coming to fruition they make a lot of short term "bandaid" moves that contort players into abnormal positions. Many employees would find it enormously frustrating if they woke up, went into work and found out their role had been changed to something they didn't normally do.
hates the 6 man as well. Gary downplayed it but Darling (in a rare occasion) actually took issue with Gary and said he's not a fan.
I doubt any pitcher would genuinely like it but they are dealing with young pitchers on inning limits, Harvey coming off TJ on limits and a current glut of starting pitchers. Obviously they feel this is the best current path to take considering those factors.
hates the 6 man as well. Gary downplayed it but Darling (in a rare occasion) actually took issue with Gary and said he's not a fan.
I think he's been very open about it when not on Mets air. Darling has made himself a national voice, so he can get away with sharing his thoughts more. He's openly trashed the move on radio interviews.
If you really believed 6-man was the way to go, you would have prepared your staff for this in ST instead of throwing it against the wall just because you couldn't get a deal done to get rid of the extra arms.
hates the 6 man as well. Gary downplayed it but Darling (in a rare occasion) actually took issue with Gary and said he's not a fan.
Good for Darling. Gary's a stat freak first and foremost. He's more likely to recite how many hot dogs a stadium cooks per Harvey start than understand what Darling's take is on a six man rotation.
hates the 6 man as well. Gary downplayed it but Darling (in a rare occasion) actually took issue with Gary and said he's not a fan.
I think he's been very open about it when not on Mets air. Darling has made himself a national voice, so he can get away with sharing his thoughts more. He's openly trashed the move on radio interviews.
If you really believed 6-man was the way to go, you would have prepared your staff for this in ST instead of throwing it against the wall just because you couldn't get a deal done to get rid of the extra arms.
This was the basic gist of his issue. He said it's one thing if organizationally these guys were in 6 man rotations in the minors but that the "extra work" on the side is not the same regardless of how hard they try and replicate it. Gary made it sound like side sessions can make up the difference. Darling 100% disagreed.
hates the 6 man as well. Gary downplayed it but Darling (in a rare occasion) actually took issue with Gary and said he's not a fan.
I doubt any pitcher would genuinely like it but they are dealing with young pitchers on inning limits, Harvey coming off TJ on limits and a current glut of starting pitchers. Obviously they feel this is the best current path to take considering those factors.
Tons of teams have had young rotations with injury limits yet a 6 man rotation is RIDICULOUSLY rare. The whole path to getting there stinks of a bumbling/desperation move vs. a planned "do it our way" plan.
I don't like the 6 man rotation at all. The problem is that there are caps on most of these young guys and it's going to be hard to keep everyone under. Especially if we're still in the mix in September.
hates the 6 man as well. Gary downplayed it but Darling (in a rare occasion) actually took issue with Gary and said he's not a fan.
I think he's been very open about it when not on Mets air. Darling has made himself a national voice, so he can get away with sharing his thoughts more. He's openly trashed the move on radio interviews.
If you really believed 6-man was the way to go, you would have prepared your staff for this in ST instead of throwing it against the wall just because you couldn't get a deal done to get rid of the extra arms.
This was the basic gist of his issue. He said it's one thing if organizationally these guys were in 6 man rotations in the minors but that the "extra work" on the side is not the same regardless of how hard they try and replicate it. Gary made it sound like side sessions can make up the difference. Darling 100% disagreed.
I defer to Darling. Every pitcher in the country learns to pitch every 5 days. If you want to run a 6-man, you have to train your kids to do so. Seems like common sense to me. Practice according to how you expect to perform. Harvey would know how he feels with an extra rest day if he had had to experience it months ago. The adjustment would have been made by now.
pointing out the flaws and being critical of the 6 man rotation. Darling has also basically said that Harvey needs to deal with it. I agree with both of those points.
hates the 6 man as well. Gary downplayed it but Darling (in a rare occasion) actually took issue with Gary and said he's not a fan.
I doubt any pitcher would genuinely like it but they are dealing with young pitchers on inning limits, Harvey coming off TJ on limits and a current glut of starting pitchers. Obviously they feel this is the best current path to take considering those factors.
Tons of teams have had young rotations with injury limits yet a 6 man rotation is RIDICULOUSLY rare. The whole path to getting there stinks of a bumbling/desperation move vs. a planned "do it our way" plan.
I don't like the 6 man rotation either. Doesn't mean I think Harvey needs to whine about it though. I can not like the decision and also not like how a players handles that decision at the same time.
I don't like the 6 man rotation at all. The problem is that there are caps on most of these young guys and it's going to be hard to keep everyone under. Especially if we're still in the mix in September.
The caps seemed to be overplayed by fans. The only guy with a legit "cap" is Harvey coming off of TJ. deGrom threw 178.1 innings last year and could have gone more (per dePo) but had back soreness to end the season. Even if you use the tradional 30/50... that's 208-228 innings before you would shut him down. He's on pace for 205.
Thor threw 133 last year, which means his cap is roughly 170-180,Matz threw 140, so 170-190 cap. Skipping a start here or there made a lot more sense than a 6 man
was Mr Nice Guy and never spoke his mind? Harvey is not a wallflower on a team that is a garden of wall flowers. Nobody say anything, just be the robots and don't dare question the Genius that is Terry Collins.
I don't like the 6 man rotation at all. The problem is that there are caps on most of these young guys and it's going to be hard to keep everyone under. Especially if we're still in the mix in September.
The caps seemed to be overplayed by fans. The only guy with a legit "cap" is Harvey coming off of TJ. deGrom threw 178.1 innings last year and could have gone more (per dePo) but had back soreness to end the season. Even if you use the tradional 30/50... that's 208-228 innings before you would shut him down. He's on pace for 205.
Thor threw 133 last year, which means his cap is roughly 170-180,Matz threw 140, so 170-190 cap. Skipping a start here or there made a lot more sense than a 6 man
I'm just going by what they said. A few weeks ago they said most of these guys were on pace to go beyond the amount of innings they wanted them throwing and so they were going to the 6 man.
I'm fine with skipping starts here and there but that could get tricky as well. Montero would have been a good guy to use as a spot starter but that's not an option right now and we can't put Niese or Colon in the pen.
I think everyone would have grudingly accept the 6-man as a necessity Â
If they didn't back off it the first time. And the way they banged Gee around from role to role and made a career-met who wanted to be here into a bitter castoff is bush league at best. I get that he wasn't performing great, but they handled that about as well as Gee was performing at pitching. Players see these things.
In comment 12357560
The caps seemed to be overplayed by fans. The only guy with a legit "cap" is Harvey coming off of TJ. deGrom threw 178.1 innings last year and could have gone more (per dePo) but had back soreness to end the season. Even if you use the tradional 30/50... that's 208-228 innings before you would shut him down. He's on pace for 205.
Thor threw 133 last year, which means his cap is roughly 170-180,Matz threw 140, so 170-190 cap. Skipping a start here or there made a lot more sense than a 6 man
Dan, are you including minor league playoff innings as well, or just regular season innings?
was Mr Nice Guy and never spoke his mind? Harvey is not a wallflower on a team that is a garden of wall flowers. Nobody say anything, just be the robots and don't dare question the Genius that is Terry Collins.
They have built a very soft/vanilla team. Openly targeting laid back "good guys". They also lack talent but this has been an issue for a few years now.
In comment 12357560
The caps seemed to be overplayed by fans. The only guy with a legit "cap" is Harvey coming off of TJ. deGrom threw 178.1 innings last year and could have gone more (per dePo) but had back soreness to end the season. Even if you use the tradional 30/50... that's 208-228 innings before you would shut him down. He's on pace for 205.
Thor threw 133 last year, which means his cap is roughly 170-180,Matz threw 140, so 170-190 cap. Skipping a start here or there made a lot more sense than a 6 man
Dan, are you including minor league playoff innings as well, or just regular season innings?
Not including minor league playoff innings but if you want to be fair DePo has said they don't include them either (in regard to deGrom last year). DePo said it's a "rough +30" and cited specifically regular season innings. Here he is from 2014 on Thor
"“I would say as a rough estimate, that’s fine,” DePodesta said. “A lot of it’s going to be on how he actually racks up those innings -- how efficient he is in the pitch counts, how much rest he’s getting between starts, how much side work we do with him.
“So there are a lot of other things that we factor into it. But, as a general marker, that’s roughly fair. I mean, we may go over that. We end up feeling we have to come short of that. But I’d say it’s at least a fair estimate.”"
2 starts each and that already shaved off 12-14 innings. 1 start is still 6-7 innings. Further, what exactly are Niese or Colon doing for the Mets should they make the playoffs? Suddenly expected to be able to work out of the pen at that time? I think if the 6 man rotation were such a good idea we would see it throughout baseball (yes, the Mets have a good rotation at the top but lets not act like Niese and Colon are SO good you need them starting).
Personally there are two ways to handle the extra starting pitching - in my simple opinion.
1- keep an extra starter or two in the bullpen. When one of the young kids clearly aren't sharp that day - pull him early. Put the 6th starter in the 3rd inning or so. Downside is the kids don't learn to pitch without their best stuff when it's missing. Upside is you can save 4 innings a couple times a season.
2 - my personal way to go. DL a guy midsession. Skip his turn in the rotation for 15 days. Saves two stars, 12-14 innings. Even better alternative for non Niese/Colon guys is to send them to AAA. Keep them on their routine of starting every 5th day, but only let them pitch the first inning. Ladder each starter that needs to limit innings through the middle of the season. Kept them all fresh and rejuvenated mid season ready for the stretch run and hopefull playoffs.
was Mr Nice Guy and never spoke his mind? Harvey is not a wallflower on a team that is a garden of wall flowers. Nobody say anything, just be the robots and don't dare question the Genius that is Terry Collins.
IMO if Hodges had set a 6 man rotation when a young Seaver was still shy of his 20th win he wouldn't openly complain to the press about it after a loss where it could be interpreted as making excuses.
Now the older veteran Seaver who by then had many contract issues with the front office by that point probably would have.
Personally there are two ways to handle the extra starting pitching - in my simple opinion.
1- keep an extra starter or two in the bullpen. When one of the young kids clearly aren't sharp that day - pull him early. Put the 6th starter in the 3rd inning or so. Downside is the kids don't learn to pitch without their best stuff when it's missing. Upside is you can save 4 innings a couple times a season.
2 - my personal way to go. DL a guy midsession. Skip his turn in the rotation for 15 days. Saves two stars, 12-14 innings. Even better alternative for non Niese/Colon guys is to send them to AAA. Keep them on their routine of starting every 5th day, but only let them pitch the first inning. Ladder each starter that needs to limit innings through the middle of the season. Kept them all fresh and rejuvenated mid season ready for the stretch run and hopefull playoffs.
The Mets supposedly were tinkering with a phantom DL situation before the year (specifically with Harvey) but I think the league came down on them or threatened to because it never came up again.
I don't think anyone is saying Niese/Colon are "SO good" that they have to be starting but what is the alternative? You're going to put one of those guys in the pen?
I know for Matz they are including his playoff pitches last year, odd they wouldn't have included them for DeGrom last year. But is it really unlike the Mets to be inconsistent in their statements lol?
one very important thing to think about playoffs and pitch limits and six man rotation. How many starters are used for the playoffs? What happens to the other two starters? Who stays in the rotation and who goes to the pen?
Good luck imposing anything on the Mets and Boras with a top ten pitcher recovering from TJS. Seriously. Claim dead arm and we are being cautious. Done.
Second alternative is much easier, send them to the minors. You then have the option of bringing them back after 10 days as opposed to 15. Easier to do twice in the year than one 15 day DL stint.
I don't think anyone is saying Niese/Colon are "SO good" that they have to be starting but what is the alternative? You're going to put one of those guys in the pen?
I wasn't aiming that at you or being snarky but everyone insisted the Mets could get something for one of Gee, Niese and Colon so either people are now admitting they were wrong or the Mets are choosing not to. Why can't Jon Niese work out of the pen as a long man?
was sent packing because he had a personality, the only reason, thought for a bench guy he was too outspoken. The Mets want a team
of Stepford wives and Harvey isnt one
Sure, they could put Niese in the pen as a long man but I don't see it working all that well and IIRC, you've said yourself in the past that you didn't think it would either. This was back when we were trying to clear one of Niese/Gee from the rotation. Most seemed to think Gee made more sense as a longman.
You have guys that are all young pitchers that you do not want to overthrow in their first/second years in the big leagues. There is still the possibility that we make the playoffs, so they have to take those innings into account as well (unless you want a situation like the Nats had with Strasburg a couple of years ago).
They are also still trying to trade Niese and Colon is still a good influence on the young guys, so they are not kicking them out of the rotation. If Niese gives you a couple more good starts before the trade deadline, he will have built up his trade value and should bring back SOMETHING of note.
Sure, they could put Niese in the pen as a long man but I don't see it working all that well and IIRC, you've said yourself in the past that you didn't think it would either. This was back when we were trying to clear one of Niese/Gee from the rotation. Most seemed to think Gee made more sense as a longman.
I don't think Jon Niese would be especially good as a reliever but I also think that MORE deGrom, Harvey and Thor is more valuable than Niese being great as the 5th reliever.
was sent packing because he had a personality, the only reason, thought for a bench guy he was too outspoken. The Mets want a team
of Stepford wives and Harvey isnt one
Yup. Didn't like Turner's influence on the clubhouse.
Steve in KY: In '69, the Mes actually invented the 5 man rotation. Â
Hodges, Rube Walker and the org. felt that the lowering of the mound would be taxing on the arm and an extra day would be required.
Great interview with Seaver by Bill Madden yesterday in the NYDN. Seaver would CLEARLY be on Harvey's side. I particularly like Seaver's view on pitch count, that they had one back then, but it was different for each individual, not some arbitrary number like today's 100 pitches. Seaver-Madden interview - ( New Window )
And Seaver was never "nice". He was, is a prick. And I mean that as Â
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In comment 12357159 chris r said:
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affecting his hitting? I'd like to think its that and not him just regressing, because even if he was playing gold glove defense, his bat is still a liability right now.
He has a torn ligament in his elbow not shoulder. He essentially needs Tommy John but can play through it for a while. His arm is a noodle until it gets fixed though.
Is it affecting his hitting though? Has he been asked about that? I'd have to imagine yes.
I don't know. Lagares peripherals always pointed to his numbers to come crashing down somewhat. I don't think anyone expected him to be THIS bad though. Maybe he's coming out of his funk though. He had a couple key hits today. The guy also covers a ton of ground in CF. I think we need him to finish out the year and get Tommy John as soon as the season is over.
something like:
niese
colon
degrom
Harvey
Matz
synderguaard
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In comment 12357159 chris r said:
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affecting his hitting? I'd like to think its that and not him just regressing, because even if he was playing gold glove defense, his bat is still a liability right now.
He has a torn ligament in his elbow not shoulder. He essentially needs Tommy John but can play through it for a while. His arm is a noodle until it gets fixed though.
Is it affecting his hitting though? Has he been asked about that? I'd have to imagine yes.
probably a bit but the main reason he has struggled is with wright out,he has more pressure to produce offensively
You sonofabitch
That innings excuse is crap. They want to keep Niese active so they can trade him. The second he's gone they're going to a five man rotation. I'f I'm wrong I'll come back on here and say so.
Harvey is pissed about the 6 man rotation, says that it throws off his prep and mechanics. Apparently others feel the same but won't say so publicly. The Mets had better be careful with Harvey. They are pissing him off and he isn't shy about vocalizing it. Add in Boras as agent and good luck keeping him here.
No pitcher wants to be thrown off his routine. They're creatures of habit.
Harvey is pissed about the 6 man rotation, says that it throws off his prep and mechanics. Apparently others feel the same but won't say so publicly. The Mets had better be careful with Harvey. They are pissing him off and he isn't shy about vocalizing it. Add in Boras as agent and good luck keeping him here.
At this point I wish Harvey would just quit griping, deal with it and concentrate on pitching the best he can to help his team.
The guy is starting to remind me of a high maintenance pretty girlfriend. Eventually the personality starts to override the beauty.
+1
that's reality.
I doubt any pitcher would genuinely like it but they are dealing with young pitchers on inning limits, Harvey coming off TJ on limits and a current glut of starting pitchers. Obviously they feel this is the best current path to take considering those factors.
I think he's been very open about it when not on Mets air. Darling has made himself a national voice, so he can get away with sharing his thoughts more. He's openly trashed the move on radio interviews.
If you really believed 6-man was the way to go, you would have prepared your staff for this in ST instead of throwing it against the wall just because you couldn't get a deal done to get rid of the extra arms.
Good for Darling. Gary's a stat freak first and foremost. He's more likely to recite how many hot dogs a stadium cooks per Harvey start than understand what Darling's take is on a six man rotation.
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hates the 6 man as well. Gary downplayed it but Darling (in a rare occasion) actually took issue with Gary and said he's not a fan.
I think he's been very open about it when not on Mets air. Darling has made himself a national voice, so he can get away with sharing his thoughts more. He's openly trashed the move on radio interviews.
If you really believed 6-man was the way to go, you would have prepared your staff for this in ST instead of throwing it against the wall just because you couldn't get a deal done to get rid of the extra arms.
This was the basic gist of his issue. He said it's one thing if organizationally these guys were in 6 man rotations in the minors but that the "extra work" on the side is not the same regardless of how hard they try and replicate it. Gary made it sound like side sessions can make up the difference. Darling 100% disagreed.
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hates the 6 man as well. Gary downplayed it but Darling (in a rare occasion) actually took issue with Gary and said he's not a fan.
I doubt any pitcher would genuinely like it but they are dealing with young pitchers on inning limits, Harvey coming off TJ on limits and a current glut of starting pitchers. Obviously they feel this is the best current path to take considering those factors.
Tons of teams have had young rotations with injury limits yet a 6 man rotation is RIDICULOUSLY rare. The whole path to getting there stinks of a bumbling/desperation move vs. a planned "do it our way" plan.
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In comment 12357535 DanMetroMan said:
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hates the 6 man as well. Gary downplayed it but Darling (in a rare occasion) actually took issue with Gary and said he's not a fan.
I think he's been very open about it when not on Mets air. Darling has made himself a national voice, so he can get away with sharing his thoughts more. He's openly trashed the move on radio interviews.
If you really believed 6-man was the way to go, you would have prepared your staff for this in ST instead of throwing it against the wall just because you couldn't get a deal done to get rid of the extra arms.
This was the basic gist of his issue. He said it's one thing if organizationally these guys were in 6 man rotations in the minors but that the "extra work" on the side is not the same regardless of how hard they try and replicate it. Gary made it sound like side sessions can make up the difference. Darling 100% disagreed.
I defer to Darling. Every pitcher in the country learns to pitch every 5 days. If you want to run a 6-man, you have to train your kids to do so. Seems like common sense to me. Practice according to how you expect to perform. Harvey would know how he feels with an extra rest day if he had had to experience it months ago. The adjustment would have been made by now.
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In comment 12357535 DanMetroMan said:
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hates the 6 man as well. Gary downplayed it but Darling (in a rare occasion) actually took issue with Gary and said he's not a fan.
I doubt any pitcher would genuinely like it but they are dealing with young pitchers on inning limits, Harvey coming off TJ on limits and a current glut of starting pitchers. Obviously they feel this is the best current path to take considering those factors.
Tons of teams have had young rotations with injury limits yet a 6 man rotation is RIDICULOUSLY rare. The whole path to getting there stinks of a bumbling/desperation move vs. a planned "do it our way" plan.
I don't like the 6 man rotation either. Doesn't mean I think Harvey needs to whine about it though. I can not like the decision and also not like how a players handles that decision at the same time.
The caps seemed to be overplayed by fans. The only guy with a legit "cap" is Harvey coming off of TJ. deGrom threw 178.1 innings last year and could have gone more (per dePo) but had back soreness to end the season. Even if you use the tradional 30/50... that's 208-228 innings before you would shut him down. He's on pace for 205.
Thor threw 133 last year, which means his cap is roughly 170-180,Matz threw 140, so 170-190 cap. Skipping a start here or there made a lot more sense than a 6 man
Well it's pretty clear this wasn't "the plan" so it's hard to suddenly be confident.
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I don't like the 6 man rotation at all. The problem is that there are caps on most of these young guys and it's going to be hard to keep everyone under. Especially if we're still in the mix in September.
The caps seemed to be overplayed by fans. The only guy with a legit "cap" is Harvey coming off of TJ. deGrom threw 178.1 innings last year and could have gone more (per dePo) but had back soreness to end the season. Even if you use the tradional 30/50... that's 208-228 innings before you would shut him down. He's on pace for 205.
Thor threw 133 last year, which means his cap is roughly 170-180,Matz threw 140, so 170-190 cap. Skipping a start here or there made a lot more sense than a 6 man
I'm just going by what they said. A few weeks ago they said most of these guys were on pace to go beyond the amount of innings they wanted them throwing and so they were going to the 6 man.
I'm fine with skipping starts here and there but that could get tricky as well. Montero would have been a good guy to use as a spot starter but that's not an option right now and we can't put Niese or Colon in the pen.
This group. Pitchers aren't accommodated but inconvenienced, surrounded by comical defense and no significant talent is added.
Enjoy the short ride while it lasts.
The caps seemed to be overplayed by fans. The only guy with a legit "cap" is Harvey coming off of TJ. deGrom threw 178.1 innings last year and could have gone more (per dePo) but had back soreness to end the season. Even if you use the tradional 30/50... that's 208-228 innings before you would shut him down. He's on pace for 205.
Thor threw 133 last year, which means his cap is roughly 170-180,Matz threw 140, so 170-190 cap. Skipping a start here or there made a lot more sense than a 6 man
Dan, are you including minor league playoff innings as well, or just regular season innings?
They have built a very soft/vanilla team. Openly targeting laid back "good guys". They also lack talent but this has been an issue for a few years now.
I was originally against it but I think you have to give a chance and then measure the results. Certainly hasn't hurt Matz
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In comment 12357560
The caps seemed to be overplayed by fans. The only guy with a legit "cap" is Harvey coming off of TJ. deGrom threw 178.1 innings last year and could have gone more (per dePo) but had back soreness to end the season. Even if you use the tradional 30/50... that's 208-228 innings before you would shut him down. He's on pace for 205.
Thor threw 133 last year, which means his cap is roughly 170-180,Matz threw 140, so 170-190 cap. Skipping a start here or there made a lot more sense than a 6 man
Dan, are you including minor league playoff innings as well, or just regular season innings?
Not including minor league playoff innings but if you want to be fair DePo has said they don't include them either (in regard to deGrom last year). DePo said it's a "rough +30" and cited specifically regular season innings. Here he is from 2014 on Thor
"“I would say as a rough estimate, that’s fine,” DePodesta said. “A lot of it’s going to be on how he actually racks up those innings -- how efficient he is in the pitch counts, how much rest he’s getting between starts, how much side work we do with him.
“So there are a lot of other things that we factor into it. But, as a general marker, that’s roughly fair. I mean, we may go over that. We end up feeling we have to come short of that. But I’d say it’s at least a fair estimate.”"
1- keep an extra starter or two in the bullpen. When one of the young kids clearly aren't sharp that day - pull him early. Put the 6th starter in the 3rd inning or so. Downside is the kids don't learn to pitch without their best stuff when it's missing. Upside is you can save 4 innings a couple times a season.
2 - my personal way to go. DL a guy midsession. Skip his turn in the rotation for 15 days. Saves two stars, 12-14 innings. Even better alternative for non Niese/Colon guys is to send them to AAA. Keep them on their routine of starting every 5th day, but only let them pitch the first inning. Ladder each starter that needs to limit innings through the middle of the season. Kept them all fresh and rejuvenated mid season ready for the stretch run and hopefull playoffs.
IMO if Hodges had set a 6 man rotation when a young Seaver was still shy of his 20th win he wouldn't openly complain to the press about it after a loss where it could be interpreted as making excuses.
Now the older veteran Seaver who by then had many contract issues with the front office by that point probably would have.
1- keep an extra starter or two in the bullpen. When one of the young kids clearly aren't sharp that day - pull him early. Put the 6th starter in the 3rd inning or so. Downside is the kids don't learn to pitch without their best stuff when it's missing. Upside is you can save 4 innings a couple times a season.
2 - my personal way to go. DL a guy midsession. Skip his turn in the rotation for 15 days. Saves two stars, 12-14 innings. Even better alternative for non Niese/Colon guys is to send them to AAA. Keep them on their routine of starting every 5th day, but only let them pitch the first inning. Ladder each starter that needs to limit innings through the middle of the season. Kept them all fresh and rejuvenated mid season ready for the stretch run and hopefull playoffs.
The Mets supposedly were tinkering with a phantom DL situation before the year (specifically with Harvey) but I think the league came down on them or threatened to because it never came up again.
one very important thing to think about playoffs and pitch limits and six man rotation. How many starters are used for the playoffs? What happens to the other two starters? Who stays in the rotation and who goes to the pen?
Second alternative is much easier, send them to the minors. You then have the option of bringing them back after 10 days as opposed to 15. Easier to do twice in the year than one 15 day DL stint.
I wasn't aiming that at you or being snarky but everyone insisted the Mets could get something for one of Gee, Niese and Colon so either people are now admitting they were wrong or the Mets are choosing not to. Why can't Jon Niese work out of the pen as a long man?
of Stepford wives and Harvey isnt one
You have guys that are all young pitchers that you do not want to overthrow in their first/second years in the big leagues. There is still the possibility that we make the playoffs, so they have to take those innings into account as well (unless you want a situation like the Nats had with Strasburg a couple of years ago).
They are also still trying to trade Niese and Colon is still a good influence on the young guys, so they are not kicking them out of the rotation. If Niese gives you a couple more good starts before the trade deadline, he will have built up his trade value and should bring back SOMETHING of note.
I don't think Jon Niese would be especially good as a reliever but I also think that MORE deGrom, Harvey and Thor is more valuable than Niese being great as the 5th reliever.
of Stepford wives and Harvey isnt one
Yup. Didn't like Turner's influence on the clubhouse.
Great interview with Seaver by Bill Madden yesterday in the NYDN. Seaver would CLEARLY be on Harvey's side. I particularly like Seaver's view on pitch count, that they had one back then, but it was different for each individual, not some arbitrary number like today's 100 pitches.
Seaver-Madden interview - ( New Window )