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NFT: Mets-Dodgers Game 3

CMicks3110 : 7/5/2015 6:05 pm
Matz has been masterful 6 IP 2 H 8 Ks
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RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 7/6/2015 10:55 am : link
In comment 12357675 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 12357658 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Sure, they could put Niese in the pen as a long man but I don't see it working all that well and IIRC, you've said yourself in the past that you didn't think it would either. This was back when we were trying to clear one of Niese/Gee from the rotation. Most seemed to think Gee made more sense as a longman.



I don't think Jon Niese would be especially good as a reliever but I also think that MORE deGrom, Harvey and Thor is more valuable than Niese being great as the 5th reliever.


I'd probably rather just take whatever we could get in a trade. If we move him to the pen, he'll make a big stink about it the same way Gee did. Not that it really matters but I'd rather not have another disgruntled pitcher in the clubhouse.
I  
DanMetroMan : 7/6/2015 11:01 am : link
hope the Mets have the balls to shake things up a bit in the off-season. Too many vanilla players and in all honesty it might be time to look at Wright as a side piece vs. the face of the franchise.
RE: I  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/6/2015 11:03 am : link
In comment 12357702 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
hope the Mets have the balls to shake things up a bit in the off-season. Too many vanilla players and in all honesty it might be time to look at Wright as a side piece vs. the face of the franchise.


Well, for what the Mets want their face of the franchise to be, Wright fits the mold perfectly. I like Wright, but if you called Central Casting for an actor to fill the role of photogenic crowd pleaser, they'd send you David Wright.

Jose Reyes was probably more of a face for the team, or he should have been. When he was good, they were good. That was shockingly clear.
RE: RE: I  
DanMetroMan : 7/6/2015 11:06 am : link
In comment 12357708 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 12357702 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


hope the Mets have the balls to shake things up a bit in the off-season. Too many vanilla players and in all honesty it might be time to look at Wright as a side piece vs. the face of the franchise.



Well, for what the Mets want their face of the franchise to be, Wright fits the mold perfectly. I like Wright, but if you called Central Casting for an actor to fill the role of photogenic crowd pleaser, they'd send you David Wright.

Jose Reyes was probably more of a face for the team, or he should have been. When he was good, they were good. That was shockingly clear.


I don't really care who they market, my concern is more building a team "around" Wright. Granderson, Cuddyer... "Wright type" of personalities. Duda is very quiet, Flores is known to be quiet, no idea on Lagares but you get the picture. TDA is more of a badass but how badass can you be when you are ALWAYS hurt?
RE: Justin Turner  
Shecky : 7/6/2015 11:11 am : link
In comment 12357655 Headhunter said:
Quote:
was sent packing because he had a personality, the only reason, thought for a bench guy he was too outspoken. The Mets want a team
of Stepford wives and Harvey isnt one

He was more of a Marlon Byrd issue than any other reason.
I can't believe we are still talking about `  
slov72 : 7/6/2015 11:12 am : link
the 6 man rotation.... it is one extra day, grow up and deal with it... it is the best situation for the Mets currently, they have 6 starters that all deserve to pitch, plus they have innings limits. One day does not deserve this much crying.
RE: I can't believe we are still talking about `  
Giants2012 : 7/6/2015 11:18 am : link
In comment 12357737 slov72 said:
Quote:
the 6 man rotation.... it is one extra day, grow up and deal with it... it is the best situation for the Mets currently, they have 6 starters that all deserve to pitch, plus they have innings limits. One day does not deserve this much crying.


If you went to the gym and were in a routine to be at your best, what would happen if each week your routine was disrupted? Would you be at your best?

That's what their complaining about.
What bothers me about Cuddyer  
Vanzetti : 7/6/2015 11:21 am : link
Is that the guy showed up in terrible shape. He was easily 15-20 lbs overweight. He looks like he has dropped some now. That's not leading by example.
if it was a change that was consistent, it would take about one week  
slov72 : 7/6/2015 11:22 am : link
to get back in a rhythm... again, if it was a one day shift it isn't a big deal. There will always be something changing and if you are so stuck that you cannot adjust, then that is a major issue.
Solid  
DanMetroMan : 7/6/2015 11:25 am : link
enough read but really downplays Stuart's issue with K's

231 ab's 95 k's!!!
Link - ( New Window )
btw  
sshin05 : 7/6/2015 11:35 am : link
bryce harper = total stud

Series vs Giants 5 for 8, 3 extra base hits, 5 walks
RE: Solid  
Shecky : 7/6/2015 11:41 am : link
In comment 12357777 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
enough read but really downplays Stuart's issue with K's

231 ab's 95 k's!!! Link - ( New Window )


Thanks for the link Dan, appreciate that.
Stuart being listed there is why I think prospect lists are hysterical. That's not even projection, that's purely based on tools and BEST case scenario.

That might be the first and last paragraph that Winningham and speed are ever mentioned together. Though he is growing up, maturing a bit and in much better shape (not saying much)

And of course Dan, your boy Brosher gets a mention!!! He packs a hell of a wallop lol.
brosher  
sshin05 : 7/6/2015 11:45 am : link
has homered in two straight games and produced 7 rbi's. One of the guys I'm keeping tabs on and have high hopes for.
RE: RE: Justin Turner  
Eric on Li : 7/6/2015 11:56 am : link
In comment 12357733 Shecky said:
Quote:
In comment 12357655 Headhunter said:


Quote:


was sent packing because he had a personality, the only reason, thought for a bench guy he was too outspoken. The Mets want a team
of Stepford wives and Harvey isnt one


He was more of a Marlon Byrd issue than any other reason.


I wondered about that when I saw all the interviews with Turner talking about how he changed his hitting approach to the exact opposite of what Sandy and crew believed in thanks to Byrd. I'm starting to think there's genuinely a deficiency in fundamental "baseball guys" in the front office. Shecky?
RE: RE: RE: Justin Turner  
spike : 7/6/2015 11:58 am : link
In comment 12357859 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 12357733 Shecky said:


Quote:


In comment 12357655 Headhunter said:


Quote:


was sent packing because he had a personality, the only reason, thought for a bench guy he was too outspoken. The Mets want a team
of Stepford wives and Harvey isnt one


He was more of a Marlon Byrd issue than any other reason.



I wondered about that when I saw all the interviews with Turner talking about how he changed his hitting approach to the exact opposite of what Sandy and crew believed in thanks to Byrd. I'm starting to think there's genuinely a deficiency in fundamental "baseball guys" in the front office. Shecky?


I also find it surprising that all these veteran hitters all of a sudden forget how to hit once they sign with the Mets.
Is it a coaching/organization problem? Everyone but Murphy is hitting below .250!
Instead of extra bullpens between starts  
CMicks3110 : 7/6/2015 12:00 pm : link
why not use them in relief for an inning between starts.
RE: Steve in KY: In '69, the Mes actually invented the 5 man rotation.  
steve in ky : 7/6/2015 12:10 pm : link
In comment 12357682 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
Hodges, Rube Walker and the org. felt that the lowering of the mound would be taxing on the arm and an extra day would be required.

Great interview with Seaver by Bill Madden yesterday in the NYDN. Seaver would CLEARLY be on Harvey's side. I particularly like Seaver's view on pitch count, that they had one back then, but it was different for each individual, not some arbitrary number like today's 100 pitches. Seaver-Madden interview - ( New Window )


I'm certain he would and anyone who knows my views knows I am no fan of pitch counts and have often quoted both Seaver and Ryan with regards to their views on the subject.

But that still doesn't have anything to do with whether you believe Seaver would have whined as much about things as Harvey has at this point (19 wins) in their respective carriers. I certainly don't remember Seaver doing so as a young pitcher especially after he just put up a very bad outing where it might be looked at as excuse making. Seaver as much as anyone went about taking care of business and not making excuses. Sure his relationship with the front office became strained and he at times voiced his views later in his career, but that is much different than griping about "game related circumstances" after a poor performance at the beginning of his career.
It's one thing to change your approach  
Shecky : 7/6/2015 12:13 pm : link
Especially if it works for you. It's as other when you start preaching
I'm thinking if they put Wilmer Flores on 2b  
Headhunter : 7/6/2015 12:37 pm : link
on day 1 he would be hitting over .300 at this point. Now I realize Daniel Murphy had to be the 2b, but it is coincidence that moving WF off of SS has relaxed him and is becoming the hitter we think he is or is he just getting hot and would have happened if he stayed at SS? I think moving him off SS is what did it, he loves playing 2b and almost made an all world DP yesterday with Justin Turner baring down on him
.  
arcarsenal : 7/6/2015 1:10 pm : link
I think Wilmer could have still done this if he were at SS. He was slumping and due to break out of it. Obviously 2B is the better spot for him defensively but I think this offense would have come either way.
His play at 2b  
Headhunter : 7/6/2015 1:16 pm : link
is so much more confident
RE: I'm thinking if they put Wilmer Flores on 2b  
Eric on Li : 7/6/2015 1:18 pm : link
In comment 12357950 Headhunter said:
Quote:
on day 1 he would be hitting over .300 at this point. Now I realize Daniel Murphy had to be the 2b, but it is coincidence that moving WF off of SS has relaxed him and is becoming the hitter we think he is or is he just getting hot and would have happened if he stayed at SS? I think moving him off SS is what did it, he loves playing 2b and almost made an all world DP yesterday with Justin Turner baring down on him


I agree with this. Thank god they didn't trade Murphy with the Wright situation, but I think if he had never been shuffled ultimately he would have been more comfortable and his overall development would be further along, which may mean his hitting as well.
Syndergaard  
ZGiants98 : 7/6/2015 1:24 pm : link
Pitched like 133 innings last year. He is definitely on an innings watch this year. He's the only damn stud in our rotation NOT to need Tommy John yet and oh shucks, he throws harder than any starter in the game. I'm not adding 70 innings to his arm in his first full season. No way.
I can't prove my point because it is unprovable  
Headhunter : 7/6/2015 1:27 pm : link
but seeing him as a 2b he looks like a different player in my eyes
Flores defense/offense  
Giants2012 : 7/6/2015 1:30 pm : link
would be equally as productive at 2nd as it would 3rd IMO.

Before anybody falls in love with him at 2nd, which is clearly better than SS (hypocrites jumping the bandwagon again BTW), don't be shocked if he doesn't become the 3rd baseman as an inexpensive Hererra at 2nd is less costly than trading him or others for a 3rd baseman and keeping Flores at 2nd.

A maturing Herrera at 2nd and Flores at 3rd might actually be better in 2016+ if FreDUH spends the savings elsewhere (assuming Wright is finished).

.  
arcarsenal : 7/6/2015 1:30 pm : link
You might be right, I honestly don't know. I just think he was due to break out anyway. I really like him as a hitter and have believed in that aspect of his game since day 1. I just think no matter where he was playing, he was going to come out of it.

That said, maybe not to this extent. We will see how long he keeps it going. If he sticks at 2B for a while and keeps hitting, then maybe it was a comfort thing after all.
.  
arcarsenal : 7/6/2015 1:31 pm : link
(That was in response to HH, not the other one)
RE: I can't prove my point because it is unprovable  
Victor in CT : 7/6/2015 1:31 pm : link
In comment 12358087 Headhunter said:
Quote:
but seeing him as a 2b he looks like a different player in my eyes


I would agree, it could very well be that being at SS affected him negatively at the plate. It's been know to happen.

Typical of the Mets though. They finally find an IF with a legit bat and hey play him out of position until he is nearly a zombie at the plate.

Remember when Reyes was ready to become the full time SS and they signed that Japanese SS (who S-U-C-K-E-D SUCKED!) and wasted Reyes' rookie year learning 2B?
LOLMatsui, Jeffy Baseball's superprospect.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/6/2015 1:34 pm : link
.
I am still  
ZGiants98 : 7/6/2015 1:34 pm : link
100% confident that Herrera is our 2nd baseman of the future. The guy is a complete stud and our future "Pedroia" He had a couple week spurts where he got himself in a rut but he'll be back soon. After continuing to be ice cold in Vegas I think he's about to explode out of it again.

The point is, with that kind of talent beating down the door at any moment I still can't get on board with Flores at 2nd. I still see Flores being shifted back to SS later this year when Wright and Murphy are on the field anyway and at best I see him as a placeholder there in 2016 until Cechinni arrives. I also think he might be nice insurance against Wright in 2016 at third.
I agree that Flores  
ZGiants98 : 7/6/2015 1:36 pm : link
was about to come out of it any position. He had a few hot streaks at SS earlier in the year and he also took a couple oh-fers at 2nd when he first moved over.
.  
arcarsenal : 7/6/2015 1:36 pm : link
And again. No one here ever argued that Flores' best position was SS. The argument in favor of playing him there was founded on the belief that he could put up Peralta-like offensive numbers there and max his value. No one assumed Wright was going to miss this much time and we already had Murphy/Herrera at 2B. Since we all wanted Flo's bat in a lineup that needed it, it was the move that made the most sense.

Circumstances have obviously changed here.
RE: I can't prove my point because it is unprovable  
steve in ky : 7/6/2015 1:37 pm : link
In comment 12358087 Headhunter said:
Quote:
but seeing him as a 2b he looks like a different player in my eyes


I thought you liked him as the ss?

But I agree he look much more relaxed at the plate. He is finally hitting like all of us hoped he would. I don't remember him having a three hit game the entre season while playing ss but now he has a few in a row already. It seems like more than just a coincidence.
I advocated for him to be the SS  
Headhunter : 7/6/2015 1:39 pm : link
but I was wrong. he can play it at a passable level, but he is capable of putting up Jeff Kent numbers at 2nd.
Good for you to be be big enough to admit it  
steve in ky : 7/6/2015 1:42 pm : link
You sure were critical of anyone who came to that conclusion before you did.
What kind of hitter does Herrera profile to be?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/6/2015 1:42 pm : link
Because people rave about Flores' bat, and he's got some power too, whereas Hererra looks the part of a slap hitter. Wouldn't you rather have the better slugger, all other things being equal?
I may be stubborn  
Headhunter : 7/6/2015 1:43 pm : link
but I'm not dumb
RE: .  
ZGiants98 : 7/6/2015 1:43 pm : link
In comment 12358124 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
And again. No one here ever argued that Flores' best position was SS. The argument in favor of playing him there was founded on the belief that he could put up Peralta-like offensive numbers there and max his value. No one assumed Wright was going to miss this much time and we already had Murphy/Herrera at 2B. Since we all wanted Flo's bat in a lineup that needed it, it was the move that made the most sense.

Circumstances have obviously changed here.


Right so what happens if everybody comes back? I personally would have left him at SS unless you were moving him off for good. Wright's doctors are still guaranteeing he'll play this year and he might even start some mild baseball activity soon. It is also clear to me that Herrera was the organizations FIRST option before they opted to go to Tejada for a while.
RE: What kind of hitter does Herrera profile to be?  
ZGiants98 : 7/6/2015 1:45 pm : link
In comment 12358143 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Because people rave about Flores' bat, and he's got some power too, whereas Hererra looks the part of a slap hitter. Wouldn't you rather have the better slugger, all other things being equal?


Herrera has "15-20" homerun pop, probably plays a better defensive 2nd AND hits for a higher average. He also has some speed. I think this kid is a future all-star.
RE: What kind of hitter does Herrera profile to be?  
steve in ky : 7/6/2015 1:45 pm : link
In comment 12358143 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Because people rave about Flores' bat, and he's got some power too, whereas Hererra looks the part of a slap hitter. Wouldn't you rather have the better slugger, all other things being equal?


Who knows how it plays out with DW's back in the coming years. We night see Hererra at 2nd and Flores at 3rd at some point in the future. Flores has the power for it and he should only get stronger with time.
Difference between Flores and Herrera  
Headhunter : 7/6/2015 1:46 pm : link
WF has hit in the Major Leagues, while Herrera has flashed at times and has looked lost at others. I'll go with the proven commodity over potential all the time
Right now I think the IF is in it's best alignment given the health  
Eric on Li : 7/6/2015 1:49 pm : link
of the team. Herrera isn't ready for prime time yet, which is fine considering he just turned 21. No reason to rush him until he's literally too good for AAA, and even then it's not like it will kill his value if he's scorching in Vegas.

3B is Murphy's best position, he's a FA after the season, and who knows when/if Wright comes back. And if he does who knows how he will play. Murphy (or Flores) as a utility guy isn't the worst option in the world.

SS is the black hole, as it's been for all of Ruben Tejada's 4 year reign as the most indestructible turd on the roster. Slim pickings around the majors for an upgrade. Tulo is too big of a risk. Rollins is intriguing to me just because he only has 1 year left. Lowrie is interesting but he has 2 years left after this one. Castro may be a good buy low.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 7/6/2015 1:50 pm : link
In comment 12358146 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 12358124 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


And again. No one here ever argued that Flores' best position was SS. The argument in favor of playing him there was founded on the belief that he could put up Peralta-like offensive numbers there and max his value. No one assumed Wright was going to miss this much time and we already had Murphy/Herrera at 2B. Since we all wanted Flo's bat in a lineup that needed it, it was the move that made the most sense.

Circumstances have obviously changed here.



Right so what happens if everybody comes back? I personally would have left him at SS unless you were moving him off for good. Wright's doctors are still guaranteeing he'll play this year and he might even start some mild baseball activity soon. It is also clear to me that Herrera was the organizations FIRST option before they opted to go to Tejada for a while.


It's a good question. If Wright comes back, he has to go back to 3B obviously. There's no other option. Next decision is whether to keep Wilmer at 2B or put Murphy there. If it's Murph, then you have to decide if you want to try Flo at SS again or leave Tejada there.

It's a problem because no matter what, if Flores isn't the SS, it has to be Tejada. Which is exactly the scenario we've all been hoping to avoid.
I feel the same way about Flores  
ZGiants98 : 7/6/2015 1:50 pm : link
I always have. I feel he can play an "average" SS defensively and put up huge numbers at that position offensively which would cause his value to sky rocket. Also with Wright, Murphy and Herrera it really was the only position that made sense. Obviously he can play 3B or 2B just as well if not better but that wasn't in the cards earlier and it still might not be.
RE: RE: RE: .  
ZGiants98 : 7/6/2015 1:52 pm : link
In comment 12358172 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 12358146 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


In comment 12358124 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


And again. No one here ever argued that Flores' best position was SS. The argument in favor of playing him there was founded on the belief that he could put up Peralta-like offensive numbers there and max his value. No one assumed Wright was going to miss this much time and we already had Murphy/Herrera at 2B. Since we all wanted Flo's bat in a lineup that needed it, it was the move that made the most sense.

Circumstances have obviously changed here.



Right so what happens if everybody comes back? I personally would have left him at SS unless you were moving him off for good. Wright's doctors are still guaranteeing he'll play this year and he might even start some mild baseball activity soon. It is also clear to me that Herrera was the organizations FIRST option before they opted to go to Tejada for a while.



It's a good question. If Wright comes back, he has to go back to 3B obviously. There's no other option. Next decision is whether to keep Wilmer at 2B or put Murphy there. If it's Murph, then you have to decide if you want to try Flo at SS again or leave Tejada there.

It's a problem because no matter what, if Flores isn't the SS, it has to be Tejada. Which is exactly the scenario we've all been hoping to avoid.
I really do think Tejada would be the backup middle infielder unless he is raking or something. They made every move imaginable to avoid starting Tejada again but we had so many injuries they had no choice. Still, I can't see them picking Tejada over Murphy and Flores to start if everyones healthy.
I like Herrera  
Headhunter : 7/6/2015 1:55 pm : link
I think he can be a very good ballplayer. He brings things to the table and I hope he continues to develop. i just think that WF has proven more at the ML level to this point and I would not pull him off of 2b when and if Wright comes back
I could still see  
ZGiants98 : 7/6/2015 1:56 pm : link
Herrera impacting THIS season as well. Everybody is ready to write the kid off after a few cold weeks. We aren't even at the all-star break yet. Lot of season left.
RE: I like Herrera  
ZGiants98 : 7/6/2015 1:57 pm : link
In comment 12358186 Headhunter said:
Quote:
I think he can be a very good ballplayer. He brings things to the table and I hope he continues to develop. i just think that WF has proven more at the ML level to this point and I would not pull him off of 2b when and if Wright comes back


Well if you are talking about THIS year and Wright comes back than Murphy would shift to second and we are back to Flores at SS again. Thats what we are saying.
For this season at least if they all come back healthy  
steve in ky : 7/6/2015 1:59 pm : link
I think Wilmer goes back to ss. I don't believe they would any longer view him as the answer there and he won't start there next season but I can't see him on the bench and Tejada playing every day.
RE: For this season at least if they all come back healthy  
ZGiants98 : 7/6/2015 2:05 pm : link
In comment 12358196 steve in ky said:
Quote:
I think Wilmer goes back to ss. I don't believe they would any longer view him as the answer there and he won't start there next season but I can't see him on the bench and Tejada playing every day.


Yeah me too. And I honestly think Flores's future is pretty muddy here. Cechinni, Nimmo, and Conforto will all be pushing their way on the team next season. I think Herrera is absolutely ready by next year. Wright will still be in the mix in some capacity. Maybe we offer Murphy a QO if the Wright situation is really murky and dare him to take it. I think our best bet is for Flores to raise his value as much as possible this year. Showcase him at three positions and hope somebody bites in the offseason sadly. And I love Flores. Think he's a great kid.
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