Berman says they are contemplating offering their remaining 2.8 to Shved but also considering others such as Butler and Green
- Bargnani will NOT be back
-Ledo has some guaranteed money owed this year and Jackson likes him with some backup 3 minutes
-Still want Smith but think he will get more than the 2.8 they can offer
-KP may not play summer league, this would be a bummer
Latvian rookie Kristaps Porzingis still hasnt decided if he will play for the Knicks summer league, according to multiple sources. The 7-foot-3 Porzingis, coming off a rugged Spanish League season with Sevilla, had been nursing hip tightness entering the NBA draft an injury that cut short his pre-draft workout with the Knicks.
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Still has value for a team who's main goal should be avoiding the lottery at all costs. I agree on Shved.
that's not the main goal, nor should it be.
What do you see as the main goal? This team isn't in any realistic way going anywhere this season. They're hoping they can be in the mix for the 8th seed.
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is the second worst in the league. Go look at this page of depth charts. I'd say that Philly is worse. But is there anyone else you can honestly say your are better than, on paper, for this upcoming season? Link - ( New Window )
I'd bet the over on 30 wins. Lakers are easily worse. Magic, Philly, Charlotte, Portland and maybe Denver (maybe not) are worse on paper.
I'll give you Portland. Charlotte has Kemba, MKG, Jefferson, Zeller, Batum. Orlando has Oladipo, Payton, Harris, Vucevic. LA has Russell, Clarkson, Kobe, Randle, Hibbert. I don't think the Knicks equal any of those, even though they have the best player amongst all those I just listed. They simply have nothing beyond Melo.
"not one since Amare" is a nonsense statement considering this summer was the only time they've had max cap room since then. And Melo forcing his way here is basically the same thing.
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a superstar. Pierce, Garnett and Rondo, at the time of those trades, were clearly not superstars.
of course there are some who argue Ainge waited too long to trade them thereby reducing his return.
Rondo, they waited. Him tearing his ACL hurt that process. With Pierce and Garnett, they were coming off a season where they took Miami to the brink in the ECF. They had to go for it one more time. And then Rondo tore his ACL that last season. So I can't fault Ainge for not trading them sooner. Garnett also fell off big time, much more than anyone would have expected.
developing the young players. If it costs them the playoffs, who cares. The draft pick is a sunk cost and means nothing to us now.
they didn't "have" to do anything. Good for them for pushing Miami, but what were you expecting the next season? For a bunch of declining players in their mid 30s to improve and beat the younger/better Heat who have the best player in the world? And Garnett's decline was actually very predictable given his age, mileage, and previous knee problems.
I don't hate the Knicks nearly as much as I hate the other biggest rivals to my favorite teams in other sports. I probably would if they were good. So let's come back to it in a few years.
Your evaluation of those guys, especially Smart, is way off though. You said earlier that Olynyk wouldn't fetch a first rounder? He would. Not a high one. But a first rounder, for sure. Marcus Smart is far more talented on offense than Tony Allen ever could have been. And "the Celtics don't have anything going for them in the future" is truly one of the most asinine statements I've ever read on BBI. They have a top young coach (who isn't leaving for Indiana or any other college team anytime soon), a bunch of young talent, a good GM and ownership situation, and a million draft picks. No, they won't be able to sign a marquee free agent, because no one wants to play in Boston. But they will trade for one. Maybe not this year. But that trade for a superstar is coming. And there is room for 2 max guys next year. You never know.
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In comment 12360404 Pego61 said:
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I'll give you Portland. Charlotte has Kemba, MKG, Jefferson, Zeller, Batum. Orlando has Oladipo, Payton, Harris, Vucevic. LA has Russell, Clarkson, Kobe, Randle, Hibbert. I don't think the Knicks equal any of those, even though they have the best player amongst all those I just listed. They simply have nothing beyond Melo.
LOL are you serious about the Lakers? Kobe hasn't been a productive player in 3 years and is coming off his second injured season. Clarkson's offense doesn't outweigh his defensive flaws yet. Randle and Russell are two defensive liabilities as rookies. Hibbert's defense does not make up for his offense. They aren't cracking 30 wins.
I tend to agree as many of those young guys they have expiring contracts soon. Once they become FA's and get a larger contract, they lose a large degree of their value.
You can say "What after Melo" and scoff at Lopez, Afflalo, Calderon, Porz, Grant and others all you want. But look where the .500 line was in the East last year. Milwaukee got there on pure defense (26th in offensive rating). Other than Knight (traded after 52 games), their top scorers were MCw (14.1), Middleton (13.4), and the Freak (12.7). Then look at 40-42 Boston. Boston's top 8 minutes leaders in order were: Avery Bradley, Evan Turner, Brandon Bass, Marcus Smart, Ty Zeller, Sully, and Olynyk, and Jae Crowder.
The talent bar for .500 in the East is low. Very low.
No... it's Porzingis and he hasn't played a minute in the NBA yet. So yes... that's scary lol
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Rondo, they waited. Him tearing his ACL hurt that process. With Pierce and Garnett, they were coming off a season where they took Miami to the brink in the ECF. They had to go for it one more time. And then Rondo tore his ACL that last season. So I can't fault Ainge for not trading them sooner. Garnett also fell off big time, much more than anyone would have expected.
they didn't "have" to do anything. Good for them for pushing Miami, but what were you expecting the next season? For a bunch of declining players in their mid 30s to improve and beat the younger/better Heat who have the best player in the world? And Garnett's decline was actually very predictable given his age, mileage, and previous knee problems.
I would argue that what they got for Pierce and Garnett was the best they could have. All those draft picks are valuable. And no one was going to give a great player for, as you say "a bunch of declining players". And a Garnett decline was expected, but I don't think the Nets expected his ppg to drop 8 points in his first year there. That precipitous a fall was unexpected.
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so I'm probably really biased. As opposed to many Knicks fans, I don't particularly hate the Celtics, probably because of Brad Stevens. But the Celtics don't have anything going for them in the future, especially once these good contracts are over with. Olynyk, Sully, Zeller, Thomas, Bradley and even Smart aren't nearly as valuable to other teams. No one wants to play in Boston anymore than NY. Smart is the only real "asset" of value and he's a glorified Tony Allen.
I don't hate the Knicks nearly as much as I hate the other biggest rivals to my favorite teams in other sports. I probably would if they were good. So let's come back to it in a few years.
Your evaluation of those guys, especially Smart, is way off though. You said earlier that Olynyk wouldn't fetch a first rounder? He would. Not a high one. But a first rounder, for sure. Marcus Smart is far more talented on offense than Tony Allen ever could have been. And "the Celtics don't have anything going for them in the future" is truly one of the most asinine statements I've ever read on BBI. They have a top young coach (who isn't leaving for Indiana or any other college team anytime soon), a bunch of young talent, a good GM and ownership situation, and a million draft picks. No, they won't be able to sign a marquee free agent, because no one wants to play in Boston. But they will trade for one. Maybe not this year. But that trade for a superstar is coming. And there is room for 2 max guys next year. You never know.
I didn't mean picks, I apologize for that, I meant their roster. And Smart is better than Tony Allen, which is why I used the term "glorified" to describe him. But that's what he is. He can be a league average 3 point shooter, but a Tony Allen with a 3 and slightly better handles isn't going to flag down any big time stars. Clearly the Celtics think so high of him that they would easily trade him right?
And keep telling yourself about Stevens staying in the NBA. We shall revisit that statement in a few years.
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offense on paper looks horrid. Not sure if there is any way the Knicks are a good offensive team. I mean a guy with 45 NBA games under his belt (Galloway) is arguably the 2nd best scorer on the team....
No... it's Porzingis and he hasn't played a minute in the NBA yet. So yes... that's scary lol
So your big 3 scoring wise... Melo, Porzingis, Galloway... 1 superstar coming off knee surgery, 1 guy none of us had heard of at this time last year and 1 guy who none of us had heard of before mid-season lol
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In comment 12360424 DanMetroMan said:
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offense on paper looks horrid. Not sure if there is any way the Knicks are a good offensive team. I mean a guy with 45 NBA games under his belt (Galloway) is arguably the 2nd best scorer on the team....
No... it's Porzingis and he hasn't played a minute in the NBA yet. So yes... that's scary lol
So your big 3 scoring wise... Melo, Porzingis, Galloway... 1 superstar coming off knee surgery, 1 guy none of us had heard of at this time last year and 1 guy who none of us had heard of before mid-season lol
I am not that concerned about Melo coming off injury. But the other two are very good points lol
As far as the Lakers go, they'll suck too. And given their place in the West, they'll probably have a terrible record. But potential injuries aside, they have more talent overall. And I forgot to mention Lou Williams before.
You can say "What after Melo" and scoff at Lopez, Afflalo, Calderon, Porz, Grant and others all you want. But look where the .500 line was in the East last year. Milwaukee got there on pure defense (26th in offensive rating). Other than Knight (traded after 52 games), their top scorers were MCw (14.1), Middleton (13.4), and the Freak (12.7). Then look at 40-42 Boston. Boston's top 8 minutes leaders in order were: Avery Bradley, Evan Turner, Brandon Bass, Marcus Smart, Ty Zeller, Sully, and Olynyk, and Jae Crowder.
The talent bar for .500 in the East is low. Very low.
Agree with this.
Afflalo can score but he's not very efficient in doing so. Grant can score too, but we don't know about on a NBA level. Same with Porzy. However, if I am looking at next season my want is that Porzingis proves to be the second leading scorer. That bodes well for the future.
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not too concerned about Melo either. Just stated to make the point. The offense is going to HAVE TO be a "good system" ie triangle, Princeton etc or it's going to be a very long season offensively. I mean Lopez, O'Quinn, Affalo all have strong defensive reps (Affalo's maybe a bit overstated), Grant's rep is that of a guy who could develop into a solid defender... almost have to hope triangle + decent defense is enough.
Afflalo can score but he's not very efficient in doing so. Grant can score too, but we don't know about on a NBA level. Same with Porzy. However, if I am looking at next season my want is that Porzingis proves to be the second leading scorer. That bodes well for the future.
Affalo can "score" but it's as a high volume deep shooter. He's not a good "offensive player".
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In comment 12360491 DanMetroMan said:
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not too concerned about Melo either. Just stated to make the point. The offense is going to HAVE TO be a "good system" ie triangle, Princeton etc or it's going to be a very long season offensively. I mean Lopez, O'Quinn, Affalo all have strong defensive reps (Affalo's maybe a bit overstated), Grant's rep is that of a guy who could develop into a solid defender... almost have to hope triangle + decent defense is enough.
Afflalo can score but he's not very efficient in doing so. Grant can score too, but we don't know about on a NBA level. Same with Porzy. However, if I am looking at next season my want is that Porzingis proves to be the second leading scorer. That bodes well for the future.
Affalo can "score" but it's as a high volume deep shooter. He's not a good "offensive player".
Thank you for repeating what I just said lol
As far as the Lakers go, they'll suck too. And given their place in the West, they'll probably have a terrible record. But potential injuries aside, they have more talent overall. And I forgot to mention Lou Williams before.
Lou williams= shot chucker with no defense
Kobe last 3 years = shot chucker with no defense
nick young= shot chucker with no defense
Randle= we don't know what his offense in the NBA is with no defense
Russell= Don't know how he translates as a rookie but awful defense
Clarkson= promising offense talent with no defense
Hibbert= washed up center with good rim protection, no offense or rebounding
Bass= nice efficient, only two way player on roster
to
Grant= two-way seasoned college player
Galloway= second year player who played well on both ends his first year
Lopez= good defensive player that is highly efficient on offense
O'quinn= good two way player
Afflalo= mediocre on both ends
Melo= still a positive on the floor, efficient numbers support him over Kobe at this point
Williams= shot chucker with no defense
KP= good shooter but likely liability on defense at this point
I don't know how your doing this paper test.
Olynyk sure tried Love. Still got knocked the fuck out of the 1st round.
Surprise! The Knicks may actually know what theyre doing. - ( New Window )
he shot 36% last year. He needs to improve quite a bit to even sniff the all star team.
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The rumor was #3 and Noel for Smart, #16 and #28. I love Smart but I'd have done that in a second. We weren't trading him to move up a few picks. I think Smart will be much more than a Tony Allen. He has all-star potential. He's also a great slasher to the basket. As his game progresses, you'll see more of that.
As far as the Lakers go, they'll suck too. And given their place in the West, they'll probably have a terrible record. But potential injuries aside, they have more talent overall. And I forgot to mention Lou Williams before.
Lou williams= shot chucker with no defense
Kobe last 3 years = shot chucker with no defense
nick young= shot chucker with no defense
Randle= we don't know what his offense in the NBA is with no defense
Russell= Don't know how he translates as a rookie but awful defense
Clarkson= promising offense talent with no defense
Hibbert= washed up center with good rim protection, no offense or rebounding
Bass= nice efficient, only two way player on roster
to
Grant= two-way seasoned college player
Galloway= second year player who played well on both ends his first year
Lopez= good defensive player that is highly efficient on offense
O'quinn= good two way player
Afflalo= mediocre on both ends
Melo= still a positive on the floor, efficient numbers support him over Kobe at this point
Williams= shot chucker with no defense
KP= good shooter but likely liability on defense at this point
I don't know how your doing this paper test.
You don't exactly frame your answers without bias. I have no bias here. If anything, I hate the Lakers more.
Porzingis is "likely" a liability, but Randle and Russell definitely are? Apparently, almost everyone on the Knicks is a good two way player. The way you frame their attributes, Jerian Grant is clearly better than Russell as he is "seasoned". The Lakers will assuredly suck on defense. But they are LIGHTYEARS ahead on offense.
@kporzee to http://Knicks.com ’s @jonahballow: "I was just trying not to force it too much because of the little injury I had.
.@kporzee to http://Knicks.com ’s @jonahballow: "Hopefully I can showcase myself well & do good in Summer League.”
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Avery Bradley, Evan Turner, Brandon Bass, Marcus Smart, Ty Zeller, Sully, and Olynyk, and Jae Crowder until you try them.
Olynyk sure tried Love. Still got knocked the fuck out of the 1st round.
Gave a better fight than the Hawks did, and that was facing Cleveland's entire team.
Go find one respected basketball person who would take the Knicks future over the Celtics. Just one.
Offensively he is 3 tiers ahead. Hibbert had an O and D rating of 101, making him a net neutral on the court.
RoLo had an O rating of 117(!) and D rating of 104, making him a positive player on the floor.
And KP will be a liability, much like Randle and Russell were in college. Defensive numbers support my claims for all of the players above mentioned, if you are concerned with any player specifically, let me know and I can show the numbers.
Dave Deckard: We're creative too but we never got past "Rolo" for Robin and "Brolo" for his twin. Those were pretty satisfactory. There's always Sideshow Bob or Sideshow Rob for the hair.
JS: Robin seems like a good natured guy who mostly goes after goofball mascots. It's hard to imagine that the only fire and desire he shows is on the sidelines, though. Does Robin have any major rivals? Additionally, is there anyone he consistently dominates? Or someone who routinely dominates him?
DD: He's not really that type. He's going to lunchbucket everybody. But he has trouble with super athletic guys like Dwight Howard one-on-one. He also has problems covering centers with a face-up jumper from 15 feet and out. Lopez is just not made to wander outside. He's like Antaeus, who was invincible as long as his feet were on the ground but got pwned by Hercules when lifted into the air. Within 10 feet of the bucket Lopez is great. Outside that...pfffft.
JS: What is Robin's least talked about skill? Do you see some untapped potential somewhere in there?
DD: His offensive game evolved in Portland...which is to say he learned to face up from 8-10 feet instead of being chained to the rim. He's also plenty smart. He knows how the game works, puts himself in good position, and doesn't mess up your flow. I don't think there's a ton of untapped potential there but don't discount his ability to adjust.
JS: Did you notice a pet play, or a go-to move that just always seemed to spring him free for an easy score?
DD: No score is easy with Lopez except a put-back. His go-to move is the offensive rebound. Either that or wait until everybody else gets tired of exploring their options then get 2 feet from the rim and put your hand up.
JS: Any departing words for Blazers faithful or the Knicks lifers?
DD: You're going to have tons of fun with Robin if you use him right. You'll be miserable if you ask him to do things he can't do. But either way, it's probably your fault. He is what he is and he's good at it.
There ya have it, we sat at the pool, we chatted about our new starting pivot. Make sure you say nice things to the folks over at Blazers Edge and you can follow Dave on Twitter for all the latest @DaveDeckard or @blazersedge.
Melo v Kobe - edge Melo
RoLo v Hibbert - edge RoLo
Those are the easy ones to identify since it's the teams' alpha dogs and defensive presences. But it's hard to even do a paper comparison at this point since both teams will likely see major contributions from young players (Russell/Randle for the Lakers, KP/Grant for the Knicks).
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In comment 12360509 Pego61 said:
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Go find one respected basketball person who would take the Knicks future over the Celtics. Just one.
If I were a "basketball person", I'd take the Celts over the Knicks in a heartbeat, ignoring potential rumors.
Just don't get too attached to Stevens is what I am saying.
Kristaps Porzingis is a 7-foot-1 Latvian teenager. He went through a solo workout in front of NBA executives and did what everyone who has seen him play expected him to do: He crushed it.
He swished threes. He showed his unique mobility and athleticism. And, of course, he kicked the pre-Draft pendulum into full-swing: first the hype, then the backlash to the hype, then the backlash to the backlash.
Its been an interesting couple of weeks for everyone involved.
But on Thursday, June 25, Porzingis will finally hear Commissioner Adam Silver call his name. So will Mario Hezonja a consensus top-10 pick like Porzingis and Willy Hernangomez, another client of Bermejos who could go in the late first round.
When it happens, they will join a long list of ACB players to be selected in the NBA Draft.
The Right Situation
Since 2001, 34 ACB players have been drafted. Fourteen of those players went in the first round.
*Nogueira never played for the Hawks, who traded him to Toronto before his first seaoson.
A few (Pau Gasol, Ricky Rubio, Nikola Mirotic) made All-Rookie 1st-team during their debut seasons. Some are out of the league or never made it all. And others, like Tiago Splitter and Serge Ibaka, have carved out essential roles on perennial title contenders.
Bermejo, who also represents Ibaka, stresses that situation rather than Draft position ultimately determines a players success.
A lot of the players and I dont blame them because its the easy thing to do they get too caught up on whether theyre a first-round pick, second-round pick or whatnot, Bermejo said. So the first thing you want to try to make them understand is the Draft is what gets you the opportunity to get into the NBA, which is good. But the most important thing is once you get to the NBA, you have to prove that you belong, you know? Thats a whole different story.
To prove you belong, you also have to be lucky opportunity and fit are extremely important.
Bermejo said that Ibaka, the 24th pick in 2008, has developed into a crucial player on a good team because he fell into the right situation.
I think Serge landed in the right spot for him. It was a very young team with not so much pressure, they were trying to build something. And (he was) surrounded by very talented and young players too, where he had space to grow and develop, Bermejo said.
Less than four years after he was drafted, Ibaka was starting in the NBA Finals.
The Transition
Ricky Rubio of the Minnesota Timberwolves talks to the media at adidas EUROCAMP, the most prestigious international pre-NBA Draft camp.Ricky Rubio of the Minnesota Timberwolves talks to the media at Adidas EuroCamp, the official international NBA Draft combine.
Like many foreign players who come to the NBA, Ibaka barely spoke English when he arrived. Someone from the agency stayed close to him during his first few seasons to try to ease the transition into a new language and culture.
Ricky Rubio, the 5th overall pick in the 2009 Draft, was in a similar situation. In an interview at the 2015 Adidas EuroCamp, Rubio said the non-basketball elements of the jump were most difficult.
Off the court was the biggest change for me because I always lived in Barcelona and never left home, Rubio said. For the first time I was moving to a country and city that I didnt know. I had to learn the language really well. I knew how to speak English, but its not the same living over there and having your own language, you know?
This shouldnt be as much of a factor for Porzingis and Hezonja, who speak English and have already moved to Spain from their native countries (Latvia and Croatia). But like Ibaka, the Gasols, Rubio and everyone before them, they will have to adjust to a different style of play.
Its a different game, but I like it more. Its more up and down, a more open game, Rubio said. (Its) more physical, so I had to hit the weight room more often. And just more games, so that means you gotta be healthy, you gotta be ready to play that amount of games.
Can They Play?
Porzingis is a smart kid. He knows hes thin. He knows the NBA is physical. After a tough loss at Fuenlabrada this season, I asked him what he needs to do to become NBA-ready. Without hesitation, he mentioned his strength.
I mean, to be able to play at the next level I gotta become stronger. Thats basically what Im working on a lot, Porzingis said. Im working on my post moves. Im not perfect at anything, so Im just working on everything basically.
Many of the photos you see of Porzingis are more than a year old, such as the two included in this piece by Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo! Sports. Hes added some muscle since then, and Bermejo doesnt think his slim frame will be an issue.
I remember Pau Gasols body when he went to the NBA it didnt look very different than what Kristaps body is right now. And Pau was the Rookie of the Year that year, Bermejo said. Im not saying that Kristaps is gonna be Rookie of the Year, but I dont think he will spend time in the D-League either, you know?
After Sevillas loss to Barcelona in March, I caught up with Sevilla assistant coach and Barcelona legend Audie Norris to talk about how Porzingis and Hernangomez will do in the NBA.
Well, I think they can compete on that level, Norris said. Theyre young, obviously, but they work hard. And the reason I say they can compete on that level is cause theyre hungry. Whatever team that signs these guys or drafts these guys, theyre gonna be happy with what they get. Theyre not gonna be impact players in their first year or two or whatever. Theyre gonna be guys that are gonna develop over time.
Unlike Porzingis and Hezonja, Hernangomez will likely stay in Spain for a couple years. He was unable to go through pre-Draft workouts because of his contract with Real Madrid, but hes already producing at the rate of guys like Splitter, Mirotic and Luis Scola.
onathan Givony @DraftExpress
Spanish center Guillermo Hernangomez had a historically great season in the ACB. Here's his DX scouting video: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Guillermo-Hernangomez-NBA-Draft-Scouting-Report-and-Video-Breakdown-5028
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Jonathan Givony @DraftExpress
7 guys in ACB history posted a PER of 20 at age 20 or prior: Stanley Roberts, Splitter, R. Fernandez, Rubio, Mirotic, Scola, W. Hernangomez.
Link - ( New Window )
Fair enough, good point. I remember Lance Stephenson got called out for "stealing" many of his rebounds.
But he was crap on offense the last two season from an efficiency standpoint.
Watts recalled a preseason game against Valencia, one of Spain’s better teams, in which Porzingis had dominating stretches on the offensive and defensive ends, including a flurry of blocked shots.
Watts, a 6-8 forward, said: “I’ve been in Europe a long time and never had my shot blocked that many times in practice. I mean, he’s got that length.”
When contacted by N.B.A. teams looking for red flags on Porzingis, Byars told them there were none he could see, except Porzingis’s need to fill out.
“I don’t want to go on the record predicting the Hall of Fame, but he’s as seasoned and mature as any 19-year-old in Europe I’ve been around,” Byars said. “He’s thin, but it’s a strong thin frame.”
He added, “Kris has endless potential given the right situation, the right opportunity.”
Season at Dysfunctional Sevilla Should Have Kristaps Porzingis Ready for Knicks - ( New Window )