Honestly, after what I learned about this from my neighbors accident, I'd be very surprise if he plays this year. The grafting is very delicate and not to be over exerted.
Just awful. How much of his hand is actually gone? Just looking at my hand, that seems like a huge gap between the thumb and middle finger.And the thumb is fractured and wil be unstable and overly exposed.
i just remembered. JPP after a sack always does the no no no with his index finger...now what? lol all jokes aside we could be losing a top 5 DE in football and a big reason our defense isnt high school level. we need JPP its a real shame his stupidity put us in this situation
RE: knuckle too! OUCH!. And a skin graft up his wrist? Â
Honestly, after what I learned about this from my neighbors accident, I'd be very surprise if he plays this year.
If he didn't plan on play (and playing soon) he wouldn't have had his index finger amputated. Doing so was the quickest way to recovery so to make that decision, his sites are clearly on this season.
i just remembered. JPP after a sack always does the no no no with his index finger...now what? lol all jokes aside we could be losing a top 5 DE in football and a big reason our defense isnt high school level. we need JPP its a real shame his stupidity put us in this situation
the defense has been high school level the past several seasons ... have you watched ?
on Sirius about JPP..One of the things that was encouraging was that of all the grafts used for burns, the "split-skin" graft is the one patients recover with the fastest..To his knowledge, that's what JPP had..
This description certainly contradicts any thoughts Â
floated around here of JPP being ready to start the season. For one, his fractured thumb will take 6 weeks to heal. For another, the graft is likely to take longer than that by at least a few more weeks. At that point is when he can first start thinking about lifting in some way, shape, or form. It also may be when he can first start OT for his amputated finger, as the graft will prevent him from putting any pressure on that hand until healed. So, we are looking at early September before he can even start earnestly getting ready to play. What kind of shape was he in to begin with? Will he put in a ton of cardio to stay in shape? How long will it take to get strong enough to play? An optimistic time table would probably have him truly ready to play after 4-5 weeks into the season. More realistic is later than that.
While the Giants wouldn't have to pay him for missed games as the franchise tagged player, I believe the full amount of the tag applies to the cap. The giants really need to evaluate him themselves before even considering allowing him to sign that tender.
I think the D will still be better. Mostly because they were so bad the last couple of seasons, they can't really get worse. I am not enamored with Spags as most are here, but he is still a far better DC than Fewell was.
big question too is does JPP refuse to come into the facility until he thinks he is ready to play?
That may benefit him financially this year (no NFI) but it would hurt the team as he will be so far behind in Spags' defense. Strahan told people it took him a month to become comfortable with the system. And Strahan's a lot smarter than JPP.
that the D will be b etter without him, but I wonder how much better the team might be if they can use the $$ for JPP elsewhere.
Look, even in a best case scenario, you'll have a guy coming off a broken thumb with a diminished grip strength. I don't think it is pessimistic to say that a DE has to use his hands each play, both in gaining leverage and shedding blocks, but also to tackle.
I just can't see how JPP can recover and be a top player in the league in 2015, and if he can't, then there is little reason to give him the tender.
Frankly, I'd have no issue letting him walk now and hopefully a division rival does pick him up. Let him become their issue. He's very quickly in a Hakeem Nicks or Steve Smith-like territory now. And in any case is certainly not going to be worth the money in 2015 and without a long-term contract, he'd walk before 2016 anyway.
That's an excellent point. I would feel slightly better about this if JPP was getting examined and monitored by the giants staff and doing the requisite film work, observing practices, sitting in on meetings, etc. So far, there is no indication that he is willing to do any of that.
I think Fats has a good point. If he can't play, move on. Â
who is stating that he will be ready for the opening game? It's his own camp.....
Was there a rush to judgement of what should be done to his hand? Was JPP so afraid of the possible negative outcomes of his hand, that he chose the amputation and timeline the doctor's gave him, so that he would be ready for opening day, just to get the full 15M, if his career was in jeopardy?
Another question is, did he get the best medical advice and best doctors? Who counselled him on these decisions? His agent?
There was no changing what happened....wouldn't the rational thing be, to get the best medical advice and doctors, even if it meant informing the Giants?
If Jpp is in his last year and won't be giving the Giants a full year - might a trade make sense. Yes, 9 fingered JPP is worth less but if he walks away at the end of the year we get nothing. And, a team would not have to compete against other teams.
I'm aware this is probably not going to happen. For all the complaints about drafting team captains - this is what you get when you draft immature guys, you have to babysit.
If Jpp is in his last year and won't be giving the Giants a full year - might a trade make sense. Yes, 9 fingered JPP is worth less but if he walks away at the end of the year we get nothing. And, a team would not have to compete against other teams.
I'm aware this is probably not going to happen. For all the complaints about drafting team captains - this is what you get when you draft immature guys, you have to babysit.
Who would trade for him? Even without this, why trade anything when you have no guarantee of keeping him? And can sign him for no comp as an FA?
If Jpp is in his last year and won't be giving the Giants a full year - might a trade make sense. Yes, 9 fingered JPP is worth less but if he walks away at the end of the year we get nothing. And, a team would not have to compete against other teams.
I'm aware this is probably not going to happen. For all the complaints about drafting team captains - this is what you get when you draft immature guys, you have to babysit.
Who would trade for him? Even without this, why trade anything when you have no guarantee of keeping him? And can sign him for no comp as an FA?
Agree with Fats and have been echoing his sentiments along with Terps et al..Victor, the main reason a team might trade for him is to assure, albeit a small window(1 season?), that they have exclusive negotiating rights to him while others will not
Probably no one. The only benefit to the trade would be the opportunity to get him acclimated to your organization. A team where JPP might want to play might have an advantage of keeping him.
Big problem is he probably sees his asking numbers as realistic and will plan on playing well enough to prove he worth those numbers during whatever games he is able to offer the Giants.
Very unfortunate what happened to him, but it was unnecessary, self-induced - in the end he will probably be a wasted 1st round pick who showed glimpses of what he might become and left the team being a major pain in the ass.
A. He's a player they think highly enough about to give him the franchise tag and offer him a 60 million dollar deal.
B. The Giants are generally a classy team who stick by their guys like family even if they act like rebellious teenagers.
However, after this season JPP may end up like Steve Smith. He didn't take the money when he could have and then disaster strikes. This may end well but it doesn't look good at all.
Some media reports and more than a few fans here were saying the amputation allows him to get ready for the start of the season. Notice, no doctors actually have said. It is almost certainly pure BS.
the other 3
area junc : 11:42 am : link : reply
fingers will get much stronger than normal and the middle finger may assume some function of the index
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
This isn't usually how hand injuries work. When you lose a finger, it often has several other complications. The palm narrows. The grip strength lessens. The friction points can cause impediments to movement. There is sometimes float that happens when bones start to shift now there is a more open area. There is little to no evidence to show other fingers taking on the burden and becoming stronger.
Excellent post. I do think the D will be better than last year, with or without JPP. but, that is more an indictment on Fewell than anything else. It is also the result of probable upgrades at S and LB and having a deeper DL.
Do I think they would have been even better with a healthy JPP? Absolutely. but, when will that scenario become a reality, if at all?
I agree 100% with not even applying the tag at this point. I'm not worried about what they have to pay in salary. I am more concerned with the unnecessary cap hit that could be applied in many other ways.
the other 3
area junc : 11:42 am : link : reply
fingers will get much stronger than normal and the middle finger may assume some function of the index
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
This isn't usually how hand injuries work. When you lose a finger, it often has several other complications. The palm narrows. The grip strength lessens. The friction points can cause impediments to movement. There is sometimes float that happens when bones start to shift now there is a more open area. There is little to no evidence to show other fingers taking on the burden and becoming stronger.
Have no clue where that idea originated from.
Exactly my thoughts when he made the same type of statements on another thread yesterday..I was going to answer it, but thought better of it..I'm not as foolish as you..:)
The skin graft makes it much more complicated, because it prevents full rehab and strengthening of the rest of the hand until the graft is healed. That will take longer to heal than the other injuries/conditions. So, even if his thumb is healed in 6 weeks, that is the absolute earliest he will be able to start lifting and that is highly unlikely because of the graft.
I was speaking to my good friend who is a top orthopedic surgeon and skin grafts only take a week to heal like any kind of incision. That doesn't mean it's completely normal but the healing if the skin graft by itself isn't a major factor.
but the skin graft is going to make it more complicated.
I agree Victor. I think any expectations that he'll be ready to play by game 6 or even game 8 are way too high. At best he'll maybe have 8 games in which to learn how to play and really hold off the offense with his new disabilities. I don't expect him to even be a shell of what he was by the end of 2015. I hope I'm dead wrong because the Giants so far look serious about keeping him but I just don't see how he's going to be more effective than a second or third string player this year.
Now if he was a guy like Cruz I could raise my expectations a little but he doesn't have that level of love of the game or he would have heeded the warnings the coaches gave them before they let them off about the consequences of the choices you make.
JPP REFUSEd to see Giants staff. He could have chosen to allow them in and all but he blew them off.
Whatever the reason(s) and all, I just don't like the way this plays out. He made a mistake, a costly one, and no matter how you slice it everyone here loses.
If we had a crystal ball, we should have let him walk via free agency and picked up a #3 comp pick for 2016. Alas, no crystal balls exist so we have to live with whatever comes out these next few days.
My gut tells me if he has an attitude with the Giants and is playing games, why pay him $15 million??? I realize he is likely our best defender but sometimes "cancer" (personality) is worse. I dunno.
Don't have any confirmation that this photo of his hand is true... Â
I would have guessed the ring finger was practically useless like a little toe, and the index finger was among the most important, interesting seeing the ranking of ring finger 2nd and index last.
RE: Don't have any confirmation that this photo of his hand is true... Â
Without a knuckle his palm will be rounded off no way he can tackle. Also the skill graft will be challenge as they will have to deep pin the graft to bone. what a dumb move here
Who is his agent and why would he give this advice? Â
The Giants may have issues but there are things that they at least try to do correctly. One of those things is that the Giants take full advantage of being located near some of the best medical facilities in the world. While JPP is within his rights as a free agent (and forget about football, as a citizen) to handle his medical care using his own advisors, doctors and decision making process, this is clearly a case of listening to the wrong people.
the fingers
area junc : 12:14 pm : link : reply
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing.
But what you've written above simply isn't true. Losing digits of any sort doesn't result in greater strength in the remaining digits. This isn't a case of a guy in a wheelchair developing Popeye arms from pushing himself all over the place.
From a medical standpoint, fingers, especially have a really hard time functioning even like they did before in the absence of their partner fingers that have been removed.
any decisions regarding the tag. doing so now only makes the Giants look like dicks. and would be stupid because there's still a lot to learn.
If JPP continues his attitude of refusing to let the Giants help, the Giants can use that to their advantage in setting up the PR for the yank of the tag.
JPP isn't going to rehab in solitude just because he didn't sign the tag, show up the week before season starts and say here I am. The media and the Giants will be watching, whether invited or not. Giants have already leaked that they won't financially penalize him if he signs and allows them access, and learns the system. If he refuses, it's going to be public, and the Giants are off the hook for being the bad guy if they see how his rehab is going and decide he's not worth it for the year.
Don't really know why JPP wouldn't cooperate. If Giants cut bait, there is no way he's getting an elite contract long term or short. his best option is a low paid show me year and hope he returns to form. If he signs and cooperates, the Giants are NOT going to screw him all to hell. So what if he did lose 6 games of pay? at this point he is NOT getting 9 mil on a one year show me deal from anyone else, which is what he'd be getting from the Giants. and if this is the attitude of players after all the Giants have done taking care of their own, from a PR standpoint, there's no point in taking care of their own.
NY Post article says the remaining fingers could be Â
"Also, according to Bleacher Report, Pierre-Paul suffered a fracture to his right thumb and may have fractures in other fingers on his right hand.
Kevin Roenbeck, New Jersey hand surgeon, cautioned against expecting too much too soon. Based on the medical chart, which the doctor said was an operating room schedule, Roenbeck noted the entire bone was amputated, all the way into his palm, including his entire knuckle. The strength in JPP’s right hand may never be the same.
“That cannot be dismissed,” Roenbeck said. “There’s no guarantee he can be the same defensive end he was. It changes your hand forever and narrows the palm.”
Some people lose up to 35 percent of their strength when losing an index finger, others as little as 5 to 10 percent, Roenbeck said.
Then there is the issue of the burns Pierre-Paul suffered. Roenbeck said they could either be severe second-degree burns or third-degree, based on the chart. In either case, they often take a while to heal. There also is the chance of infection, and further surgery. Roenbeck estimated Pierre-Paul could be out up to three months, but that was merely a guess based on the information available." JPP had finger amputated, ‘no guarantee’ he’ll be the same - ( New Window )
he may be confusing the 5 fingers with the 5 senses :) although even there, he'd still be wrong, since the other senses don't get stronger, you simply become more in tune with them.
Need to wait and see what the actual situation is Â
still too much speculation. However, long term he may still be a very effective DE. I've seen may games where DLineman play with their entire hand in a wrap (like a club) and they are effective. It certainly may affect him on some plays, but most plays the DE are wrapping up with the arms when tackling, not grabbing with their hands and throwing them down. Remember when everyone was saying that Rich Seubert was done, and spoke matter of factly about it??? Now it took him two years, but he was a damn effective player for the SB46 run.
. Let's remember that this is a human being, please: I know everybody wants their football team to do well. But Jason Pierre-Paul is a 26-year-old man who just became a father and is dealing with a scary, life-altering trauma. Yes, he did a dumb thing. We all do dumb things. We hope they don't have ugly consequences, but sometimes they do. I know the Giants are upset, and I know fans are upset, but no one is as upset about this as Pierre-Paul, and no one else lost a body part over it. He's the one sitting in a hospital bed wondering how this is going to affect his life, his career and his family. That's heavy stuff. These players are people, not merely characters who appear in a TV show every Sunday afternoon in the fall. We lose sight of that too often, and as we process all of this over the coming days, weeks and months, it's worth pausing to think about the real-life part of it.
I know I did plenty of stupid shit when I was 26 (and beyond). I also had a big toe amputated 2 years ago (not self-inflicted) and spent 10 days in a hospital not knowing if I'd ever be able to walk or run normally again. Not a happy time.
With all that said I'm really starting to lean towards FMIC's position. Cut bait now and apply the money elsewhere, or roll it over.
That is the closer pic that I seen that could be his hand Â
at the party? I'm surprised that hasn't filtered out yet.
His neighbors were tweeting about it while he was lighting off fireworks. Some neighbors in their houses were upset and younger "adults" were setting them off with him.
RE: I'd pull the franchise tag and spend the money towards Eli or Prince Â
Imagine the future cap space we'd save by front-loading a contract for one of those players (assuming they're in our long term plans).
Not very realistic to think that either Prince or Eli would accept a deal that's heavily front-loaded. It's less long-term security for them when it's the long-term security that players are looking for.
RE: RE: I'd pull the franchise tag and spend the money towards Eli or Prince Â
Imagine the future cap space we'd save by front-loading a contract for one of those players (assuming they're in our long term plans).
Not very realistic to think that either Prince or Eli would accept a deal that's heavily front-loaded. It's less long-term security for them when it's the long-term security that players are looking for.
????
Players love front loaded deals.
What they could do is instead of giving a big bonus which gets prorated over the live of that contract, move some of that money to the usually low first year of the contract to take more of the hit now
I think you have it backwards - salary isn't guaranteed so front loading = more money now and less at the tail end of the contract (money that players are unlikely to see).
A player would jump at that. Given our unique cap position if we were to rescind with JPP, it would make sense for us as well.
Exactly. Thats why I would do that and use the future cap savings towards other players/free agents next year. I fear that JPP's health will be a problem all year and potentially beyond.
Front loading a contract makes it easier to cut a player Â
down the line, which is why I said it's less security
Yes, it's more money now, but for a player like Prince, who's 26, it's going to result in a player looking to re-do his deal later if he continues to develop into a better player. He's not going to be content with his contract if he's undervalued compared to his position as a 28 year old who just made his first all-pro team.
RE: Front loading a contract makes it easier to cut a player Â
down the line, which is why I said it's less security
Yes, it's more money now, but for a player like Prince, who's 26, it's going to result in a player looking to re-do his deal later if he continues to develop into a better player. He's not going to be content with his contract if he's undervalued compared to his position as a 28 year old who just made his first all-pro team.
First of all, lets go with the assumption that the total value and the guaranteed amounts are the same.
Front loading the cap hits buy not using signing bonus to its full extent doesn't make it easier to cut a player.
Yes, there will be less dead money if you do want to cut them, but there will also be less to gain as their cap hit will be lower.
used to be a proponent of front loaded contracts Â
but then I saw player after player after player start whining that they're underpaid in the latter years. See Strahan as exhibit A. Osi as exhibit B.
players love front loaded. they make their money, and if they're good enough, can hold the team's feet to the fire and get a raise later on. if they're not good enough, they're still affordable to keep, so they don't get ditched.
methinks the opposite is true. the more you make, with talent being the same, the easier it is to cut. you save more money. When have you ever heard of a boss keeping a higher priced employee over a lower priced one?
I do not see why we would tender him for all that money unless he agrees to long term deal for the future. We will get nothing this year from him and he may leave next year to the highest bidder anyway. Why waste the money, we are screwed let him go and lets move on.
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger. It's hardly an ideal situation, but there are a few people on here speaking out their asses.
the fingers
area junc : 12:14 pm : link : reply
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing.
But what you've written above simply isn't true. Losing digits of any sort doesn't result in greater strength in the remaining digits. This isn't a case of a guy in a wheelchair developing Popeye arms from pushing himself all over the place.
From a medical standpoint, fingers, especially have a really hard time functioning even like they did before in the absence of their partner fingers that have been removed.
but that hand and the other pics on the right with the fingers missing skin don't compute. I can't imagine they would remove all that skin from his fingers? Unless it was beyond repair that we're not educated to recognize.
the other 3
area junc : 11:42 am : link : reply
fingers will get much stronger than normal and the middle finger may assume some function of the index
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
This isn't usually how hand injuries work. When you lose a finger, it often has several other complications. The palm narrows. The grip strength lessens. The friction points can cause impediments to movement. There is sometimes float that happens when bones start to shift now there is a more open area. There is little to no evidence to show other fingers taking on the burden and becoming stronger.
Have no clue where that idea originated from.
It's area junc. Thanks for the informative post.
If. That is his hand, he won't be playing for MONTHS Â
Things we know.
JPP decision making is very questionable.
He has not surrounded himself with people to keep him from making poor decisions or he does not trust them enough to listen to them.
JPP has lost a finger
JPP had skin grafts
JPP fractured his hand.
JPP chose to amputate so he could play sooner (A very big deal)
What does it all mean? We just don't know yet. Here is what I hope.
That he signs the tender immediately so he can go to meetings, learn the new defense and have access to everything a billion dollar franchise has to offer from facilities to services. I hope he gets well and does not give in to despair, he did a very foolish thing, at some point I expect he will get down on himself for what he has lost. Despair and depression is very dangerous. I hope he surrounds himself with people strong enough to tell him no and he respects those people enough to listen. He has the potential to grow from this. A slightly reduced physical JPP but more mature and harder working JPP could be a better player.
RE: If. That is his hand, he won't be playing for MONTHS Â
That is a mess.
Giants need to find right time to cut him loose.
If that's his hand and given the way he has treated the Giants staff, I'd respect his privacy and respectfully rescind the franchise tender. I'd try to find a way to use that money to wrap Eli up for the remainder of his career. Front load , what ever. One thing we know about Eli, he will honor any contract he signs and won't complain about it.
I feel bad for JPP, but it him that is taking the Giants out of Giant for life. Can he come back to his old form? Maybe. Will he be able to come back to his old form this year? Not if that is his hand we have seen.
Gets more acute. So, it's natural if you lose a finger the rest of your hand gets stronger or maybe that strength is spread out throughout the rest of his body. JPP will be back full strength plus one finger strength. Probably all-pro this year.
@ProFootballDoc: Index finger is least important for grip (football DE). Grab a golf club & you will see what I mean. Of course important for fine pinch etc.
@ProFootballDoc: My ranking of finger importance in a defensive end:
1) thumb
2) ring
3) pinkie (4th & 5th most important for power grip)
4) middle
5) index
Former NFL head team physician with 17 yrs of sideline experience. Orthopedic Surgeon. Real time inside look at injuries/medical issues. MondayMorningMD @NFpost
It would be nice if you define "talking out of their asses". In my case, I've been involved with rehabilitation, healthcare and prosthetic development for the past 20+ years. I now work for the medical sector of a 3-D printing company that is producing bone implants, prosthetics (especially for children to keep costs down), dentures/invisalign braces, and a host of other medical applications.
I have been with hundreds of people who have lost fingers or toes and hundreds more who have lost limbs. As mentioned above, the idea that the remaining digits increase in strength is not the common reality. Each amputation is different, but when there is a loss of a digit, the structure of the palm or foot is altered. Grip strength or foot control is affected by a certain % no matter how minor the injury or how healthy the person is. I can think of not one single instance where grip strength actually improves. And this doesn't even account situations where digits are lost due to diabetic complications, where the idea that the remaining pieces get stronger is completely laughable.
As fkap pointed out, there is a myth that if somebody goes blind that their remaining senses strengthen. This has actually been proven false, but I bet a lot of people here would swear by it. what happens is that you focus more on the other senses. They aren't any better performing, you simply recognize them more because you aren't spending energy trying to see.
Same concept applies with a loss of digits. Those people heathy enough and with a hand or foot structure relatively unaffected can still function. But it is not a situation where the remaining digits somehow bulk up or grow a different musculatory structure. If they appear to be larger it is because of two factors:
1) The remaining digits often shift position as the hand becomes deformed
2) the scar tissue often takes on a thicker appearance than normal tissue, which often gives the look of the limb being "puffy".
You and thomas make it sound like it is common for the remaining fingers to not only maintain their current function, but actually compensate and take on the strength of the missing digit or digits. That simply isn't supported by the evidence. I consult weekly with medical people who specialize in amputations and loss of limbs/digits. We discuss how to properly build prosthetics for their patients. I have never heard any commentary that would suggest the remaining fingers get stronger. Perception isn't always reality.
rather than deconstruct the opinion, lets just do this:
Lets just look at a your hand. and wrist. and arm.
Look or feel for the bones through the wrist area.
Ditto the blood supply network
Ditto the nerves which go from the fingers up into the arm.
Now look at the bottom of your hand ( palm up as you rest your lower arm on a table.
Flex each finger slowly. Note the tendons and muscles move all the way up your arm. each muscle has its own nerve and blood supply. Each bone in your hand has its own cartilage and tendons holding it in place and keeping the blood vessels and nerves from being squeezed or displaced.
Now imagine that complexly coordinated and completely interdependent "ecosystem" losing spacing, health, infection resistance, nerve paths, size, and shape.
Lets imagine nerves transmitting the sensations for tactile sense, sense of pressure, heat, nerves for harnessing muscle, nerves for auto response. Harm some responses...harm all. slow some responses, slow all.
Now lets stop and leave the hand wrist and arm behind. Now lets look up neuroplasticity. Neuroplasticity is the brains nature to shape by habit and learned pathways and once established ....to resist change. Its one reason people with amputations still feel they feel things. But they really don't.
The hand is not a simple organ in simple response on one metric ....like when strength of an unused part grows when it is used more often.
I know we want JPP to be a great player for us. But we cant make up physical reality to conform to our desires. The guy did not break a leg of tear a tendon. He wrecked a delicately balanced and complex interactive part of his body.
Yet, if last spring we used a first round pick on a defensive end that was missing a finger on his hand from birth people would wonder if Reese lost his mind.
But the guy that lost his finger two months before the season will be fine. OK.
intelligent poster. Not saying he's right or wrong, but I do remember him stating over and over again that there was no way Rich Seubert would play again after his Leg injury, and that turned out false. Assuming the hand heals reasonably well, JPP could be an effective DE going forward even w/o the finger. I think we need to wait and see how long that process will take. By guess is at least 4 months.
If he doesn't sign, the Giants don't pay him. If he does sign and he can't play, then the Giants can just NFI him and not pay him. He has no leverage and the Giants have little incentive to release him.
The only logical reason to get rid of him would be if they were to extend another player, but until that happens there is no good reason to move. However, even that seems hasty because at least in the current situation, the Giants have control over him until they can properly evaluate his health. Most of you would be crying bloody murder if he signed with the Eagles and it turned out he can actually play. How quickly we forget the whining and moaning over Steve Smith.
This way if it is clear that he won't be the same player or he doesn't return, then he gets released or lowballed in the Spring. Some of you just want the Giants to act immediately out of spite. Remind me to play poker with you the next time you're in town.
And hopefully, you will remember that I came to the board and admitted I was wrong in my opinion of Seubert. I will apologize when I'm wrong.
In this case, I'm making no sweeping assessments of JPP's future. I'm simply addressing the perception that remaining digits grow stronger or that remaining senses get better. I'm not making any guarantees on the player - I'm just debunking the idea that digits gain strength in the absence of other digits.
Bii2 - very good post. It actually differs from mine in that you talk about something I've not even addressed - blood flow/circulation. There are some people who also mistakenly believe the body is somehow "smart" enough to reroute blood flow, too.
It would be nice if you define "talking out of their asses". In my case, I've been involved with rehabilitation, healthcare and prosthetic development for the past 20+ years. I now work for the medical sector of a 3-D printing company that is producing bone implants, prosthetics (especially for children to keep costs down), dentures/invisalign braces, and a host of other medical applications.
I have been with hundreds of people who have lost fingers or toes and hundreds more who have lost limbs. As mentioned above, the idea that the remaining digits increase in strength is not the common reality. Each amputation is different, but when there is a loss of a digit, the structure of the palm or foot is altered. Grip strength or foot control is affected by a certain % no matter how minor the injury or how healthy the person is. I can think of not one single instance where grip strength actually improves. And this doesn't even account situations where digits are lost due to diabetic complications, where the idea that the remaining pieces get stronger is completely laughable.
As fkap pointed out, there is a myth that if somebody goes blind that their remaining senses strengthen. This has actually been proven false, but I bet a lot of people here would swear by it. what happens is that you focus more on the other senses. They aren't any better performing, you simply recognize them more because you aren't spending energy trying to see.
Same concept applies with a loss of digits. Those people heathy enough and with a hand or foot structure relatively unaffected can still function. But it is not a situation where the remaining digits somehow bulk up or grow a different musculatory structure. If they appear to be larger it is because of two factors:
1) The remaining digits often shift position as the hand becomes deformed
2) the scar tissue often takes on a thicker appearance than normal tissue, which often gives the look of the limb being "puffy".
You and thomas make it sound like it is common for the remaining fingers to not only maintain their current function, but actually compensate and take on the strength of the missing digit or digits. That simply isn't supported by the evidence. I consult weekly with medical people who specialize in amputations and loss of limbs/digits. We discuss how to properly build prosthetics for their patients. I have never heard any commentary that would suggest the remaining fingers get stronger. Perception isn't always reality.
FMiC, there's no substitute for experiencing this sort of thing first-hand. I don't care if you've worked around health issues for 100 years; if you haven't experienced it yourself, you have NOT ONE CLUE about it...how it affects people, how one adapts to it, the physical changes that take place (yes, larger, longer, stronger remaining digits).
The statements you aver as truths simply aren't. Certainly there's going to be significant variety of adaptation and development, but your unequivocal statements are worth nothing at all when faced with the real, true article.
RE: Why on Earth would the Giants rescind the tag?? Â
If he doesn't sign, the Giants don't pay him. If he does sign and he can't play, then the Giants can just NFI him and not pay him. He has no leverage and the Giants have little incentive to release him.
The only logical reason to get rid of him would be if they were to extend another player, but until that happens there is no good reason to move. However, even that seems hasty because at least in the current situation, the Giants have control over him until they can properly evaluate his health. Most of you would be crying bloody murder if he signed with the Eagles and it turned out he can actually play. How quickly we forget the whining and moaning over Steve Smith.
This way if it is clear that he won't be the same player or he doesn't return, then he gets released or lowballed in the Spring. Some of you just want the Giants to act immediately out of spite. Remind me to play poker with you the next time you're in town.
How did Smith work out for Philly? And he didn't blow up his hand!
This isn't a game of poker. It would be if JPP were a great asset and the Giants really wanted to keep him.
This isn't impulsiveness, resentment towards JPP, or a lack of patience. It's weighing $15 million in cap space vs. one year of a player whose hand looks like he got it caught in a thresher two months before the season starts.
There's also value in not dealing with the circus that's going to accompany JPP all season over this ridiculous shit.
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger.
Larger???? Perhaps stronger, but how can digits actually grow (once puberty ends)?
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
for not experiencing it first hand (no pun intended). It is called objectivity.
And actually this is objectivity backed by scientific research.
As mentioned above, there are people who have lost limbs who still "feel" them there. They will tell you with every sincerity that they feel their arm or leg still attached.
We know that isn't the case, but they often believe it to be true.
Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true - it just changes one's perspective on it.
Hell, in my interaction with people who have lost limbs, I've seen many go from helplessness and despair to the belief they can do anything simply because they now have a prosthetic in place.
for not experiencing it first hand (no pun intended). It is called objectivity.
And actually this is objectivity backed by scientific research.
As mentioned above, there are people who have lost limbs who still "feel" them there. They will tell you with every sincerity that they feel their arm or leg still attached.
We know that isn't the case, but they often believe it to be true.
Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true - it just changes one's perspective on it.
Hell, in my interaction with people who have lost limbs, I've seen many go from helplessness and despair to the belief they can do anything simply because they now have a prosthetic in place.
You are incorrect in your statements about strength/size/function and I can prove that with my physical appearance. Argue it all you want, but you aren't correct in you statements.
Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
But ask just how arrogant does one have to be to reject science? I don't have a dog in this fight - I have 10 fingers and 10 toes. Heck, one of my aims is to improve the quality of life of those who have lost digits or limbs.
Former NFL head team physician with 17 yrs of sideline experience. Orthopedic Surgeon. Real time inside look at injuries/medical issues. MondayMorningMD @NFpost
for not experiencing it first hand (no pun intended). It is called objectivity.
And actually this is objectivity backed by scientific research.
As mentioned above, there are people who have lost limbs who still "feel" them there. They will tell you with every sincerity that they feel their arm or leg still attached.
We know that isn't the case, but they often believe it to be true.
Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true - it just changes one's perspective on it.
Hell, in my interaction with people who have lost limbs, I've seen many go from helplessness and despair to the belief they can do anything simply because they now have a prosthetic in place.
You are incorrect in your statements about strength/size/function and I can prove that with my physical appearance. Argue it all you want, but you aren't correct in you statements.
I have to respond to the rest of this nonsense. The phenomenon of phantom limbs, including itching, pain, etc. absolutely exists, as I can aver from personal experience.
"Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true." Really? So when I compare the remaining digits on my damaged hand and they are observably larger/stronger than the digits on my undamaged hand, I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part? Fucking unbelievable. Your so-called objectivity is just your refusal to admit that you just really don't know about this at a very deep level.
Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
But ask just how arrogant does one have to be to reject science? I don't have a dog in this fight - I have 10 fingers and 10 toes. Heck, one of my aims is to improve the quality of life of those who have lost digits or limbs.
Don't confuse objectivity with arrogance.
I never reject science and that's just an untrue statement made by a fool. I'll compare what I see and feel and use against all your generalities. I have the PROOF of my claims with me at all times; what is there about this that you don't get? Or arew you calling me a liar? Or perhaps deluded?
I don't doubt what you're saying, but I have two questions for you:
1. Are you an NFL DE?
2. Did your hand get to a point where you could take on an NFL OL the same way you had prior in 2 months?
My statements have been in reaction to those who aver that what I've personally experienced is not and cannot be true. I've made no statement at all concerning JPP specifically or football in general. Frankly, I don't see how you could possibly have come to that conclusion from what I've been writing.
BMac, answer one question. I know that you may have felt the missing limb, after the injury, but was it really there?
Of course not, that's why it's called a phantom. Has anyone here said that, gee< I lost my arm but I don't really believe it's gone? Of course not. Man, reading is fundamental.
BMac, answer one question. I know that you may have felt the missing limb, after the injury, but was it really there?
Of course not, that's why it's called a phantom. Has anyone here said that, gee< I lost my arm but I don't really believe it's gone? Of course not. Man, reading is fundamental.
Just to add, I feel the missing portion (not like the real thing, but it's definite) even now after 50 years.
So when I compare the remaining digits on my damaged hand and they are observably larger/stronger than the digits on my undamaged hand, I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part?
First off, they aren't observably stronger - that is perception. They might be observably larger because when there is a gap or void in the body, the remaining pieces tend to move to fill that spot. when they move, scar tissue is formed which have roughly 2.5 times the density of normal tissue. Thus, there is an appearance of things being bigger (Actually they would be thicker).
From your responses, you make it seem like my experience is bunk and simply because you have lost fingers that you are an expert. I'm not refuting your experiences, I'm refuting your perception. Look, you've even agreed that the idea of there being feelings and phantom limbs exist. why, because it is nerve stimuli transmitting certain things to your brain. Yet the limbs are most definitely not there.
That is my point. I am not saying you think the missing limb is there, but you seem to feel or perceive that it is there. Similar to the idea that you have actually gained increased hearing when you go blind or the instance where you may perceive greater strength in the remaining limbs after such an injury.
That is my point. I am not saying you think the missing limb is there, but you seem to feel or perceive that it is there. Similar to the idea that you have actually gained increased hearing when you go blind or the instance where you may perceive greater strength in the remaining limbs after such an injury.
Yes, I definitely feel the missing part. It isn't because I wish it were still there, or any other reason than that there must be vestigial nerve function that sends the message.
As for increased strength and size, that is observable and a concrete fact.
These aren't "ideas" they are reality. And unless you've gone through same type of thing, you CANNOT really know what I'm talking about. Intellectual understanding just don't and can't even approximate the real thing.
you saying that doctors who routinely perform amputations don't know what they are talking about?
I get the feeling you do.
I also get the feeling you are saying the scientific findings that have shown that senses do not get better or that grip strength and hand strength doesn't actually improves are bunk, too.
Nobody is denying what you feel - but I would most definitely say that what you are experiencing is perception and not reality.
So when I compare the remaining digits on my damaged hand and they are observably larger/stronger than the digits on my undamaged hand, I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part?
First off, they aren't observably stronger - that is perception. They might be observably larger because when there is a gap or void in the body, the remaining pieces tend to move to fill that spot. when they move, scar tissue is formed which have roughly 2.5 times the density of normal tissue. Thus, there is an appearance of things being bigger (Actually they would be thicker).
From your responses, you make it seem like my experience is bunk and simply because you have lost fingers that you are an expert. I'm not refuting your experiences, I'm refuting your perception. Look, you've even agreed that the idea of there being feelings and phantom limbs exist. why, because it is nerve stimuli transmitting certain things to your brain. Yet the limbs are most definitely not there.
Whoever said that the missing pieces p[-arts WERE there. You're now pushing the limits here from my perspective. And yes, you all but baldly state that I'm either a liar or am delusional. You haven't really accepted or understood anything that I've had to say.
To repeat, the fingers have no scar tissue and are both longer than the comparable fingers on the undamaged hand, and are thicker with muscle; this is incontrovertibly, observably, and testably true.
you saying that doctors who routinely perform amputations don't know what they are talking about?
I get the feeling you do.
I also get the feeling you are saying the scientific findings that have shown that senses do not get better or that grip strength and hand strength doesn't actually improves are bunk, too.
Nobody is denying what you feel - but I would most definitely say that what you are experiencing is perception and not reality.
And I say you are very insultingly and ignorantly incorrect.
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
Ok, so how did it get bigger? Did you take HGH or something? I'm just trying to understand how it got BIGGER. I've conceded the idea it of getting stronger. SO how much bigger? 1/8 inch? 1/4 inch? Curious.
you saying that doctors who routinely perform amputations don't know what they are talking about?
I get the feeling you do.
I also get the feeling you are saying the scientific findings that have shown that senses do not get better or that grip strength and hand strength doesn't actually improves are bunk, too.
Nobody is denying what you feel - but I would most definitely say that what you are experiencing is perception and not reality.
And I say you are very insultingly and ignorantly incorrect.
To add, what I'm saying here (if you'll stop putting words in my mouth and attributing false statements to me) is that unless you actually experience something like this, you don't have clue one.
To repeat, the fingers have no scar tissue and are both longer than the comparable fingers on the undamaged hand, and are thicker with muscle; this is incontrovertibly, observably, and testably true
To state that the fingers have no scar tissue is evidence right there that you perceive the wrong things. Digits do not grow to compensate for the loss of other digits. Our bodies simply do not regenerate bone. If fingers are longer, it isn't due to them growing - it is due to shifting. It would be like saying a person with bunions observably has longer, thicker toes.
My cousin lost his pinky (the entire thing), and he didn't experience what you apparently did. Each case is different, of course. Just trying to understand the science behind it...
To add, what I'm saying here (if you'll stop putting words in my mouth and attributing false statements to me) is that unless you actually experience something like this, you don't have clue one.
My response would be that every doctor who has 10 fingers and 10 toes cannot relate to the patients they operate on for amputations. They apparently don't have clue one.
For a person calling me ignorant, I can't even imagine what the inferences are on that quote above.
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
Ok, so how did it get bigger? Did you take HGH or something? I'm just trying to understand how it got BIGGER. I've conceded the idea it of getting stronger. SO how much bigger? 1/8 inch? 1/4 inch? Curious.
Through use. I've never let the condition get in the way of working whatever kinds of jobs were available, including construction, heavy landscaping, tree surgeon, etc. Shit, when you use muscles, they tend to get larger and stronger.
Because there was so much stress on the partial hand, there was obviously a reaction to it that absolutely translates into a stronger hand (for what it is) with larger, thicker fingers. The length is around 1/4" longer than the comparable fingers on the undamaged hand, and are visibly thicker (muscle).
The increase in length may be partly due to stress such as carrying heavy loads with the fingers alone; I'm not certain if this is a reason, but the evidence is there, even if FMiC insists that I'm delusional. Also, according to the medical community, I didn't stop growing physically until I was 25 (go figure).
A hallux abducto valgus deformity, commonly called a bunion, is a deformity characterized by medial deviation of the first metatarsal and lateral deviation of the hallux (big toe), often erroneously described as an enlargement of bone around the joint at the head of the big toe.
The key in there is that it is often erroneously described as an enlargement of bone
We don't grow additional bone naturally. Despite appearances, your fingers cannot have grown longer with new bone. It is not scientifically possible.
So you just stretched the reamaining fingures... Â
I'm not aware of any NFL player who had an injury like this. That doesn't mean it can't be done, but nobody has any idea whether it's possible to play at a high level with this kind of maimed hand, or how long a full recovery will be.
If I understand the nature of this surgery, his hand will actually be narrower/smaller afterward. I can't even imagine how this is going to work. And never mind the skin grafts and nerve damage.
I don't see how he can be worth franchise-tag money at this point. But I don't see how the Giants can withdraw the tender at this point either. The coaching staff is on a short leash; they basically have a year to fix the team, and JPP was their best defensive player in 2014. As Eric said, this could cost the coaching staff their jobs.
To repeat, the fingers have no scar tissue and are both longer than the comparable fingers on the undamaged hand, and are thicker with muscle; this is incontrovertibly, observably, and testably true
To state that the fingers have no scar tissue is evidence right there that you perceive the wrong things. Digits do not grow to compensate for the loss of other digits. Our bodies simply do not regenerate bone. If fingers are longer, it isn't due to them growing - it is due to shifting. It would be like saying a person with bunions observably has longer, thicker toes.
You made the scar tissue claim, sonny, noty me. I was responding to it. You're talking in absolutes, when there are no absolutes in these things. There are so many other factors that weigh in over time that to say that there's only one cause or result, or that something simply cannot happen is pure ignorance.
You quite unjustly accuse me of ignoring science. I accuse you of being an abject slave to it. Even if I shoved my hand in your face, you'd deny the evidence that's right in front of you. That's the very definition of a fool.
To add, what I'm saying here (if you'll stop putting words in my mouth and attributing false statements to me) is that unless you actually experience something like this, you don't have clue one.
My response would be that every doctor who has 10 fingers and 10 toes cannot relate to the patients they operate on for amputations. They apparently don't have clue one.
For a person calling me ignorant, I can't even imagine what the inferences are on that quote above.
SAll you're doping is embarrassing yourself by attributing statements that I've never made. Are you that incapable?
My cousin lost his pinky (the entire thing), and he didn't experience what you apparently did. Each case is different, of course. Just trying to understand the science behind it...
Sure. I said way above that there's almost infinite variety in reactions. Losing a pinky isn't likely to cause what I have, because he still has the real, workable part of his hand. I lost the thumb, index, and forefinger. That doesn't leave much leftover to work with, but one does what one can.
To add, what I'm saying here (if you'll stop putting words in my mouth and attributing false statements to me) is that unless you actually experience something like this, you don't have clue one.
My response would be that every doctor who has 10 fingers and 10 toes cannot relate to the patients they operate on for amputations. They apparently don't have clue one.
For a person calling me ignorant, I can't even imagine what the inferences are on that quote above.
SAll you're doping is embarrassing yourself by attributing statements that I've never made. Are you that incapable?
Lovely typos, but what would you expect?
RE: So you just stretched the reamaining fingures... Â
That is only my unscientific assumption as one possible cause. If you've read everything on the thread, you'll also see that I didn't stop growing physically until I was 25.
So when I compare the remaining digits on my damaged hand and they are observably larger/stronger than the digits on my undamaged hand, I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part?
First off, they aren't observably stronger - that is perception. They might be observably larger because when there is a gap or void in the body, the remaining pieces tend to move to fill that spot. when they move, scar tissue is formed which have roughly 2.5 times the density of normal tissue. Thus, there is an appearance of things being bigger (Actually they would be thicker).
From your responses, you make it seem like my experience is bunk and simply because you have lost fingers that you are an expert. I'm not refuting your experiences, I'm refuting your perception. Look, you've even agreed that the idea of there being feelings and phantom limbs exist. why, because it is nerve stimuli transmitting certain things to your brain. Yet the limbs are most definitely not there.
Whoever said that the missing pieces p[-arts WERE there. You're now pushing the limits here from my perspective. And yes, you all but baldly state that I'm either a liar or am delusional. You haven't really accepted or understood anything that I've had to say.
To repeat, the fingers have no scar tissue and are both longer than the comparable fingers on the undamaged hand, and are thicker with muscle; this is incontrovertibly, observably, and testably true.
BMac, except that there are NO muscles in the fingers
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger.
Larger???? Perhaps stronger, but how can digits actually grow (once puberty ends)?
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
The reliability and usefulness of eyewitness testimony has long been questioned and doubted.
RE: Rational Quote from the Linked Graziuano Article Â
Quote:
Let's remember that this is a human being, please: I know everybody wants their football team to do well. But Jason Pierre-Paul is a 26-year-old man who just became a father and is dealing with a scary, life-altering trauma. Yes, he did a dumb thing....but no one is as upset about this as Pierre-Paul, and no one else lost a body part over it. He's the one sitting in a hospital bed wondering how this is going to affect his life, his career and his family. That's heavy stuff. These players are people...We lose sight of that too often...it's worth pausing to think about the real-life part of it.
The real life part of it is, if the guy shows up to learn Spags system, he gets $14 mil, and he gets to keep it, even if his play proves that he's not at all as good as he once was. That "real life" situation may compensate for losing a finger.
Eventually the Giants will know whatever can be known by them about JPP's hand post-accident and the odds on this or that possible physical and mental future as a top DE. But probably not for a while. It sounds very uncertain in any scenario whether he'll be able and fit enough to start in game one. What does that put up in the air under the circumstances? His tender (if he still hasn't signed it)? Maybe. Certainly a long-term deal. They'll probably not know this in the next couple of weeks and perhaps not for the next month or so. Then what? JPP healthy was always a kind of big gamble. Now, badly hurt, he's a way bigger one for the Giants -- huge. What can compensate for this kind of uncertainty? Do they toss millions over the transom based on hope that it will all go well? Is he really that valuable?
Again can someone answer this. Why do the Giants have Â
To reward stupidity with 15 mil contract? Giants should let jpp go. for jpp this is going to take years to adapt to and football is low on priority list
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger.
Larger???? Perhaps stronger, but how can digits actually grow (once puberty ends)?
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
The reliability and usefulness of eyewitness testimony has long been questioned and doubted.
Always by those who haven't actually experienced a particular situation. You know, assholes.
Do you have personal experience with damaged parts of your hand?
Thanks. My remarks apply to the interdependence of hands
I would have thought that it was abundantly obvious that I was talking from m personal experience, but yes, I got blown up a long, long time ago and took the hit to the whole left side of my body, but the left hand is basically a strip steak with two fingers. Not as tasty, however!
Even if I shoved my hand in your face, you'd deny the evidence that's right in front of you. That's the very definition of a fool.
I wouldn't deny the evidence, I'd explain it. Not in Supernatural terms, either.
It is so foolish that this rabbit hole started because Thomas insinuated that JPP's remaining hand parts will likely be stronger.
Well, you are an asshiole, and have proved yourself as such many times. This is just one more. Hopefully, I'll meet you one day and introduce you to my delusion. You won't enjoy it, but you will learn something.
So when I compare the remaining digits on my damaged hand and they are observably larger/stronger than the digits on my undamaged hand, I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part?
First off, they aren't observably stronger - that is perception. They might be observably larger because when there is a gap or void in the body, the remaining pieces tend to move to fill that spot. when they move, scar tissue is formed which have roughly 2.5 times the density of normal tissue. Thus, there is an appearance of things being bigger (Actually they would be thicker).
From your responses, you make it seem like my experience is bunk and simply because you have lost fingers that you are an expert. I'm not refuting your experiences, I'm refuting your perception. Look, you've even agreed that the idea of there being feelings and phantom limbs exist. why, because it is nerve stimuli transmitting certain things to your brain. Yet the limbs are most definitely not there.
Whoever said that the missing pieces p[-arts WERE there. You're now pushing the limits here from my perspective. And yes, you all but baldly state that I'm either a liar or am delusional. You haven't really accepted or understood anything that I've had to say.
To repeat, the fingers have no scar tissue and are both longer than the comparable fingers on the undamaged hand, and are thicker with muscle; this is incontrovertibly, observably, and testably true.
BMac, except that there are NO muscles in the fingers
Yeah, I know that, but again, ad nauseum, I can demonstrate conclusively that the fingers remaining on the damaged hand are larger, longer, and stronger than the similar digits on the un damaged hand.
I fail to understand why this is unable to be countenanced here. I mean really, fuck the bunch of you. I've never been particularly sensitive about it, but the level of vitriol and dismissal of a fucking demonstrable, observable thing on here are rather unbelievable.
Here's the challenge. All the doubters and know-it-alls on here are hereby challenged, an one thousand dollars a throw, to disprove my claims.
At no point did I dispute the condition of your fingers. I only pointed out that if they did indeed get thicker, it wasn't due to increased muscle mass as you said, because there are no muscles in the fingers. That's all, nothing more.
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger.
Larger???? Perhaps stronger, but how can digits actually grow (once puberty ends)?
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
The reliability and usefulness of eyewitness testimony has long been questioned and doubted.
Always by those who haven't actually experienced a particular situation. You know, assholes.
Well, you are an asshiole, and have proved yourself as such many times. This is just one more. Hopefully, I'll meet you one day and introduce you to my delusion. You won't enjoy it, but you will learn something.
I've already learned something in this thread. That somebody can live with a condition for 50 years and still not understand it.
I have doubt you believe that your fingers grew bigger and stronger. All I'm saying is that it is scientifically impossible to do so.
Nothing I've said in this thread is MY opinion. It is the opinion of medical and scientific professionals. So, I guess there are a bunch of assholes out there who need you to stick your hand in their faces and threaten.
Just awful. How much of his hand is actually gone? Just looking at my hand, that seems like a huge gap between the thumb and middle finger.And the thumb is fractured and wil be unstable and overly exposed.
If he didn't plan on play (and playing soon) he wouldn't have had his index finger amputated. Doing so was the quickest way to recovery so to make that decision, his sites are clearly on this season.
the defense has been high school level the past several seasons ... have you watched ?
While the Giants wouldn't have to pay him for missed games as the franchise tagged player, I believe the full amount of the tag applies to the cap. The giants really need to evaluate him themselves before even considering allowing him to sign that tender.
That may benefit him financially this year (no NFI) but it would hurt the team as he will be so far behind in Spags' defense. Strahan told people it took him a month to become comfortable with the system. And Strahan's a lot smarter than JPP.
Look, even in a best case scenario, you'll have a guy coming off a broken thumb with a diminished grip strength. I don't think it is pessimistic to say that a DE has to use his hands each play, both in gaining leverage and shedding blocks, but also to tackle.
I just can't see how JPP can recover and be a top player in the league in 2015, and if he can't, then there is little reason to give him the tender.
Frankly, I'd have no issue letting him walk now and hopefully a division rival does pick him up. Let him become their issue. He's very quickly in a Hakeem Nicks or Steve Smith-like territory now. And in any case is certainly not going to be worth the money in 2015 and without a long-term contract, he'd walk before 2016 anyway.
Was there a rush to judgement of what should be done to his hand? Was JPP so afraid of the possible negative outcomes of his hand, that he chose the amputation and timeline the doctor's gave him, so that he would be ready for opening day, just to get the full 15M, if his career was in jeopardy?
Another question is, did he get the best medical advice and best doctors? Who counselled him on these decisions? His agent?
There was no changing what happened....wouldn't the rational thing be, to get the best medical advice and doctors, even if it meant informing the Giants?
I'm aware this is probably not going to happen. For all the complaints about drafting team captains - this is what you get when you draft immature guys, you have to babysit.
I'm aware this is probably not going to happen. For all the complaints about drafting team captains - this is what you get when you draft immature guys, you have to babysit.
Who would trade for him? Even without this, why trade anything when you have no guarantee of keeping him? And can sign him for no comp as an FA?
Quote:
If Jpp is in his last year and won't be giving the Giants a full year - might a trade make sense. Yes, 9 fingered JPP is worth less but if he walks away at the end of the year we get nothing. And, a team would not have to compete against other teams.
I'm aware this is probably not going to happen. For all the complaints about drafting team captains - this is what you get when you draft immature guys, you have to babysit.
Who would trade for him? Even without this, why trade anything when you have no guarantee of keeping him? And can sign him for no comp as an FA?
Agree with Fats and have been echoing his sentiments along with Terps et al..Victor, the main reason a team might trade for him is to assure, albeit a small window(1 season?), that they have exclusive negotiating rights to him while others will not
Big problem is he probably sees his asking numbers as realistic and will plan on playing well enough to prove he worth those numbers during whatever games he is able to offer the Giants.
Very unfortunate what happened to him, but it was unnecessary, self-induced - in the end he will probably be a wasted 1st round pick who showed glimpses of what he might become and left the team being a major pain in the ass.
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
B. The Giants are generally a classy team who stick by their guys like family even if they act like rebellious teenagers.
However, after this season JPP may end up like Steve Smith. He didn't take the money when he could have and then disaster strikes. This may end well but it doesn't look good at all.
Did Strahan's holdout have something to do with learning it slowly?
area junc : 11:42 am : link : reply
fingers will get much stronger than normal and the middle finger may assume some function of the index
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
This isn't usually how hand injuries work. When you lose a finger, it often has several other complications. The palm narrows. The grip strength lessens. The friction points can cause impediments to movement. There is sometimes float that happens when bones start to shift now there is a more open area. There is little to no evidence to show other fingers taking on the burden and becoming stronger.
Have no clue where that idea originated from.
Do I think they would have been even better with a healthy JPP? Absolutely. but, when will that scenario become a reality, if at all?
I agree 100% with not even applying the tag at this point. I'm not worried about what they have to pay in salary. I am more concerned with the unnecessary cap hit that could be applied in many other ways.
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the other 3
area junc : 11:42 am : link : reply
fingers will get much stronger than normal and the middle finger may assume some function of the index
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
This isn't usually how hand injuries work. When you lose a finger, it often has several other complications. The palm narrows. The grip strength lessens. The friction points can cause impediments to movement. There is sometimes float that happens when bones start to shift now there is a more open area. There is little to no evidence to show other fingers taking on the burden and becoming stronger.
Have no clue where that idea originated from.
Exactly my thoughts when he made the same type of statements on another thread yesterday..I was going to answer it, but thought better of it..I'm not as foolish as you..:)
And then there's Chris in Philly's favorite all-time player, Mordecai "three-finger" Brown..
I agree Victor. I think any expectations that he'll be ready to play by game 6 or even game 8 are way too high. At best he'll maybe have 8 games in which to learn how to play and really hold off the offense with his new disabilities. I don't expect him to even be a shell of what he was by the end of 2015. I hope I'm dead wrong because the Giants so far look serious about keeping him but I just don't see how he's going to be more effective than a second or third string player this year.
Now if he was a guy like Cruz I could raise my expectations a little but he doesn't have that level of love of the game or he would have heeded the warnings the coaches gave them before they let them off about the consequences of the choices you make.
Whatever the reason(s) and all, I just don't like the way this plays out. He made a mistake, a costly one, and no matter how you slice it everyone here loses.
If we had a crystal ball, we should have let him walk via free agency and picked up a #3 comp pick for 2016. Alas, no crystal balls exist so we have to live with whatever comes out these next few days.
My gut tells me if he has an attitude with the Giants and is playing games, why pay him $15 million??? I realize he is likely our best defender but sometimes "cancer" (personality) is worse. I dunno.
https://twitter.com/subredditsbot/status/619173378105176064
Link - ( New Window )
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
https://twitter.com/subredditsbot/status/619173378105176064 Link - ( New Window )
Can't tell but isn't that a left hand?
area junc : 12:14 pm : link : reply
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing.
But what you've written above simply isn't true. Losing digits of any sort doesn't result in greater strength in the remaining digits. This isn't a case of a guy in a wheelchair developing Popeye arms from pushing himself all over the place.
From a medical standpoint, fingers, especially have a really hard time functioning even like they did before in the absence of their partner fingers that have been removed.
If JPP continues his attitude of refusing to let the Giants help, the Giants can use that to their advantage in setting up the PR for the yank of the tag.
JPP isn't going to rehab in solitude just because he didn't sign the tag, show up the week before season starts and say here I am. The media and the Giants will be watching, whether invited or not. Giants have already leaked that they won't financially penalize him if he signs and allows them access, and learns the system. If he refuses, it's going to be public, and the Giants are off the hook for being the bad guy if they see how his rehab is going and decide he's not worth it for the year.
Don't really know why JPP wouldn't cooperate. If Giants cut bait, there is no way he's getting an elite contract long term or short. his best option is a low paid show me year and hope he returns to form. If he signs and cooperates, the Giants are NOT going to screw him all to hell. So what if he did lose 6 games of pay? at this point he is NOT getting 9 mil on a one year show me deal from anyone else, which is what he'd be getting from the Giants. and if this is the attitude of players after all the Giants have done taking care of their own, from a PR standpoint, there's no point in taking care of their own.
"Also, according to Bleacher Report, Pierre-Paul suffered a fracture to his right thumb and may have fractures in other fingers on his right hand.
Kevin Roenbeck, New Jersey hand surgeon, cautioned against expecting too much too soon. Based on the medical chart, which the doctor said was an operating room schedule, Roenbeck noted the entire bone was amputated, all the way into his palm, including his entire knuckle. The strength in JPP’s right hand may never be the same.
“That cannot be dismissed,” Roenbeck said. “There’s no guarantee he can be the same defensive end he was. It changes your hand forever and narrows the palm.”
Some people lose up to 35 percent of their strength when losing an index finger, others as little as 5 to 10 percent, Roenbeck said.
Then there is the issue of the burns Pierre-Paul suffered. Roenbeck said they could either be severe second-degree burns or third-degree, based on the chart. In either case, they often take a while to heal. There also is the chance of infection, and further surgery. Roenbeck estimated Pierre-Paul could be out up to three months, but that was merely a guess based on the information available."
JPP had finger amputated, ‘no guarantee’ he’ll be the same - ( New Window )
I know I did plenty of stupid shit when I was 26 (and beyond). I also had a big toe amputated 2 years ago (not self-inflicted) and spent 10 days in a hospital not knowing if I'd ever be able to walk or run normally again. Not a happy time.
With all that said I'm really starting to lean towards FMIC's position. Cut bait now and apply the money elsewhere, or roll it over.
His neighbors were tweeting about it while he was lighting off fireworks. Some neighbors in their houses were upset and younger "adults" were setting them off with him.
Not very realistic to think that either Prince or Eli would accept a deal that's heavily front-loaded. It's less long-term security for them when it's the long-term security that players are looking for.
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Imagine the future cap space we'd save by front-loading a contract for one of those players (assuming they're in our long term plans).
Not very realistic to think that either Prince or Eli would accept a deal that's heavily front-loaded. It's less long-term security for them when it's the long-term security that players are looking for.
????
Players love front loaded deals.
What they could do is instead of giving a big bonus which gets prorated over the live of that contract, move some of that money to the usually low first year of the contract to take more of the hit now
A player would jump at that. Given our unique cap position if we were to rescind with JPP, it would make sense for us as well.
Yes, it's more money now, but for a player like Prince, who's 26, it's going to result in a player looking to re-do his deal later if he continues to develop into a better player. He's not going to be content with his contract if he's undervalued compared to his position as a 28 year old who just made his first all-pro team.
Yes, it's more money now, but for a player like Prince, who's 26, it's going to result in a player looking to re-do his deal later if he continues to develop into a better player. He's not going to be content with his contract if he's undervalued compared to his position as a 28 year old who just made his first all-pro team.
First of all, lets go with the assumption that the total value and the guaranteed amounts are the same.
Front loading the cap hits buy not using signing bonus to its full extent doesn't make it easier to cut a player.
Yes, there will be less dead money if you do want to cut them, but there will also be less to gain as their cap hit will be lower.
players love front loaded. they make their money, and if they're good enough, can hold the team's feet to the fire and get a raise later on. if they're not good enough, they're still affordable to keep, so they don't get ditched.
methinks the opposite is true. the more you make, with talent being the same, the easier it is to cut. you save more money. When have you ever heard of a boss keeping a higher priced employee over a lower priced one?
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger. It's hardly an ideal situation, but there are a few people on here speaking out their asses.
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the fingers
area junc : 12:14 pm : link : reply
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing.
But what you've written above simply isn't true. Losing digits of any sort doesn't result in greater strength in the remaining digits. This isn't a case of a guy in a wheelchair developing Popeye arms from pushing himself all over the place.
From a medical standpoint, fingers, especially have a really hard time functioning even like they did before in the absence of their partner fingers that have been removed.
Wrong-o.
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the other 3
area junc : 11:42 am : link : reply
fingers will get much stronger than normal and the middle finger may assume some function of the index
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
This isn't usually how hand injuries work. When you lose a finger, it often has several other complications. The palm narrows. The grip strength lessens. The friction points can cause impediments to movement. There is sometimes float that happens when bones start to shift now there is a more open area. There is little to no evidence to show other fingers taking on the burden and becoming stronger.
Have no clue where that idea originated from.
It's area junc. Thanks for the informative post.
Giants need to find right time to cut him loose.
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get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger.
Larger???? Perhaps stronger, but how can digits actually grow (once puberty ends)?
It's area junc. Thanks for the informative post.
JPP decision making is very questionable.
He has not surrounded himself with people to keep him from making poor decisions or he does not trust them enough to listen to them.
JPP has lost a finger
JPP had skin grafts
JPP fractured his hand.
JPP chose to amputate so he could play sooner (A very big deal)
What does it all mean? We just don't know yet. Here is what I hope.
That he signs the tender immediately so he can go to meetings, learn the new defense and have access to everything a billion dollar franchise has to offer from facilities to services. I hope he gets well and does not give in to despair, he did a very foolish thing, at some point I expect he will get down on himself for what he has lost. Despair and depression is very dangerous. I hope he surrounds himself with people strong enough to tell him no and he respects those people enough to listen. He has the potential to grow from this. A slightly reduced physical JPP but more mature and harder working JPP could be a better player.
Giants need to find right time to cut him loose.
If that's his hand and given the way he has treated the Giants staff, I'd respect his privacy and respectfully rescind the franchise tender. I'd try to find a way to use that money to wrap Eli up for the remainder of his career. Front load , what ever. One thing we know about Eli, he will honor any contract he signs and won't complain about it.
I feel bad for JPP, but it him that is taking the Giants out of Giant for life. Can he come back to his old form? Maybe. Will he be able to come back to his old form this year? Not if that is his hand we have seen.
@ProFootballDoc: My ranking of finger importance in a defensive end:
1) thumb
2) ring
3) pinkie (4th & 5th most important for power grip)
4) middle
5) index
I have been with hundreds of people who have lost fingers or toes and hundreds more who have lost limbs. As mentioned above, the idea that the remaining digits increase in strength is not the common reality. Each amputation is different, but when there is a loss of a digit, the structure of the palm or foot is altered. Grip strength or foot control is affected by a certain % no matter how minor the injury or how healthy the person is. I can think of not one single instance where grip strength actually improves. And this doesn't even account situations where digits are lost due to diabetic complications, where the idea that the remaining pieces get stronger is completely laughable.
As fkap pointed out, there is a myth that if somebody goes blind that their remaining senses strengthen. This has actually been proven false, but I bet a lot of people here would swear by it. what happens is that you focus more on the other senses. They aren't any better performing, you simply recognize them more because you aren't spending energy trying to see.
Same concept applies with a loss of digits. Those people heathy enough and with a hand or foot structure relatively unaffected can still function. But it is not a situation where the remaining digits somehow bulk up or grow a different musculatory structure. If they appear to be larger it is because of two factors:
1) The remaining digits often shift position as the hand becomes deformed
2) the scar tissue often takes on a thicker appearance than normal tissue, which often gives the look of the limb being "puffy".
You and thomas make it sound like it is common for the remaining fingers to not only maintain their current function, but actually compensate and take on the strength of the missing digit or digits. That simply isn't supported by the evidence. I consult weekly with medical people who specialize in amputations and loss of limbs/digits. We discuss how to properly build prosthetics for their patients. I have never heard any commentary that would suggest the remaining fingers get stronger. Perception isn't always reality.
Lets just look at a your hand. and wrist. and arm.
Look or feel for the bones through the wrist area.
Ditto the blood supply network
Ditto the nerves which go from the fingers up into the arm.
Now look at the bottom of your hand ( palm up as you rest your lower arm on a table.
Flex each finger slowly. Note the tendons and muscles move all the way up your arm. each muscle has its own nerve and blood supply. Each bone in your hand has its own cartilage and tendons holding it in place and keeping the blood vessels and nerves from being squeezed or displaced.
Now imagine that complexly coordinated and completely interdependent "ecosystem" losing spacing, health, infection resistance, nerve paths, size, and shape.
Lets imagine nerves transmitting the sensations for tactile sense, sense of pressure, heat, nerves for harnessing muscle, nerves for auto response. Harm some responses...harm all. slow some responses, slow all.
Now lets stop and leave the hand wrist and arm behind. Now lets look up neuroplasticity. Neuroplasticity is the brains nature to shape by habit and learned pathways and once established ....to resist change. Its one reason people with amputations still feel they feel things. But they really don't.
The hand is not a simple organ in simple response on one metric ....like when strength of an unused part grows when it is used more often.
I know we want JPP to be a great player for us. But we cant make up physical reality to conform to our desires. The guy did not break a leg of tear a tendon. He wrecked a delicately balanced and complex interactive part of his body.
Hope you are well
But the guy that lost his finger two months before the season will be fine. OK.
The only logical reason to get rid of him would be if they were to extend another player, but until that happens there is no good reason to move. However, even that seems hasty because at least in the current situation, the Giants have control over him until they can properly evaluate his health. Most of you would be crying bloody murder if he signed with the Eagles and it turned out he can actually play. How quickly we forget the whining and moaning over Steve Smith.
This way if it is clear that he won't be the same player or he doesn't return, then he gets released or lowballed in the Spring. Some of you just want the Giants to act immediately out of spite. Remind me to play poker with you the next time you're in town.
In this case, I'm making no sweeping assessments of JPP's future. I'm simply addressing the perception that remaining digits grow stronger or that remaining senses get better. I'm not making any guarantees on the player - I'm just debunking the idea that digits gain strength in the absence of other digits.
Bii2 - very good post. It actually differs from mine in that you talk about something I've not even addressed - blood flow/circulation. There are some people who also mistakenly believe the body is somehow "smart" enough to reroute blood flow, too.
I have been with hundreds of people who have lost fingers or toes and hundreds more who have lost limbs. As mentioned above, the idea that the remaining digits increase in strength is not the common reality. Each amputation is different, but when there is a loss of a digit, the structure of the palm or foot is altered. Grip strength or foot control is affected by a certain % no matter how minor the injury or how healthy the person is. I can think of not one single instance where grip strength actually improves. And this doesn't even account situations where digits are lost due to diabetic complications, where the idea that the remaining pieces get stronger is completely laughable.
As fkap pointed out, there is a myth that if somebody goes blind that their remaining senses strengthen. This has actually been proven false, but I bet a lot of people here would swear by it. what happens is that you focus more on the other senses. They aren't any better performing, you simply recognize them more because you aren't spending energy trying to see.
Same concept applies with a loss of digits. Those people heathy enough and with a hand or foot structure relatively unaffected can still function. But it is not a situation where the remaining digits somehow bulk up or grow a different musculatory structure. If they appear to be larger it is because of two factors:
1) The remaining digits often shift position as the hand becomes deformed
2) the scar tissue often takes on a thicker appearance than normal tissue, which often gives the look of the limb being "puffy".
You and thomas make it sound like it is common for the remaining fingers to not only maintain their current function, but actually compensate and take on the strength of the missing digit or digits. That simply isn't supported by the evidence. I consult weekly with medical people who specialize in amputations and loss of limbs/digits. We discuss how to properly build prosthetics for their patients. I have never heard any commentary that would suggest the remaining fingers get stronger. Perception isn't always reality.
FMiC, there's no substitute for experiencing this sort of thing first-hand. I don't care if you've worked around health issues for 100 years; if you haven't experienced it yourself, you have NOT ONE CLUE about it...how it affects people, how one adapts to it, the physical changes that take place (yes, larger, longer, stronger remaining digits).
The statements you aver as truths simply aren't. Certainly there's going to be significant variety of adaptation and development, but your unequivocal statements are worth nothing at all when faced with the real, true article.
The only logical reason to get rid of him would be if they were to extend another player, but until that happens there is no good reason to move. However, even that seems hasty because at least in the current situation, the Giants have control over him until they can properly evaluate his health. Most of you would be crying bloody murder if he signed with the Eagles and it turned out he can actually play. How quickly we forget the whining and moaning over Steve Smith.
This way if it is clear that he won't be the same player or he doesn't return, then he gets released or lowballed in the Spring. Some of you just want the Giants to act immediately out of spite. Remind me to play poker with you the next time you're in town.
How did Smith work out for Philly? And he didn't blow up his hand!
This isn't a game of poker. It would be if JPP were a great asset and the Giants really wanted to keep him.
This isn't impulsiveness, resentment towards JPP, or a lack of patience. It's weighing $15 million in cap space vs. one year of a player whose hand looks like he got it caught in a thresher two months before the season starts.
There's also value in not dealing with the circus that's going to accompany JPP all season over this ridiculous shit.
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In comment 12363911 area junc said:
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get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger.
Larger???? Perhaps stronger, but how can digits actually grow (once puberty ends)?
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
1. Are you an NFL DE?
2. Did your hand get to a point where you could take on an NFL OL the same way you had prior in 2 months?
And actually this is objectivity backed by scientific research.
As mentioned above, there are people who have lost limbs who still "feel" them there. They will tell you with every sincerity that they feel their arm or leg still attached.
We know that isn't the case, but they often believe it to be true.
Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true - it just changes one's perspective on it.
Hell, in my interaction with people who have lost limbs, I've seen many go from helplessness and despair to the belief they can do anything simply because they now have a prosthetic in place.
And actually this is objectivity backed by scientific research.
As mentioned above, there are people who have lost limbs who still "feel" them there. They will tell you with every sincerity that they feel their arm or leg still attached.
We know that isn't the case, but they often believe it to be true.
Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true - it just changes one's perspective on it.
Hell, in my interaction with people who have lost limbs, I've seen many go from helplessness and despair to the belief they can do anything simply because they now have a prosthetic in place.
You are incorrect in your statements about strength/size/function and I can prove that with my physical appearance. Argue it all you want, but you aren't correct in you statements.
But ask just how arrogant does one have to be to reject science? I don't have a dog in this fight - I have 10 fingers and 10 toes. Heck, one of my aims is to improve the quality of life of those who have lost digits or limbs.
Don't confuse objectivity with arrogance.
Not that it affects this particular situation, but here's some additional Bio on Chao.
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for not experiencing it first hand (no pun intended). It is called objectivity.
And actually this is objectivity backed by scientific research.
As mentioned above, there are people who have lost limbs who still "feel" them there. They will tell you with every sincerity that they feel their arm or leg still attached.
We know that isn't the case, but they often believe it to be true.
Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true - it just changes one's perspective on it.
Hell, in my interaction with people who have lost limbs, I've seen many go from helplessness and despair to the belief they can do anything simply because they now have a prosthetic in place.
You are incorrect in your statements about strength/size/function and I can prove that with my physical appearance. Argue it all you want, but you aren't correct in you statements.
I have to respond to the rest of this nonsense. The phenomenon of phantom limbs, including itching, pain, etc. absolutely exists, as I can aver from personal experience.
"Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true." Really? So when I compare the remaining digits on my damaged hand and they are observably larger/stronger than the digits on my undamaged hand, I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part? Fucking unbelievable. Your so-called objectivity is just your refusal to admit that you just really don't know about this at a very deep level.
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Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
But ask just how arrogant does one have to be to reject science? I don't have a dog in this fight - I have 10 fingers and 10 toes. Heck, one of my aims is to improve the quality of life of those who have lost digits or limbs.
Don't confuse objectivity with arrogance.
I never reject science and that's just an untrue statement made by a fool. I'll compare what I see and feel and use against all your generalities. I have the PROOF of my claims with me at all times; what is there about this that you don't get? Or arew you calling me a liar? Or perhaps deluded?
1. Are you an NFL DE?
2. Did your hand get to a point where you could take on an NFL OL the same way you had prior in 2 months?
My statements have been in reaction to those who aver that what I've personally experienced is not and cannot be true. I've made no statement at all concerning JPP specifically or football in general. Frankly, I don't see how you could possibly have come to that conclusion from what I've been writing.
Of course not, that's why it's called a phantom. Has anyone here said that, gee< I lost my arm but I don't really believe it's gone? Of course not. Man, reading is fundamental.
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BMac, answer one question. I know that you may have felt the missing limb, after the injury, but was it really there?
Of course not, that's why it's called a phantom. Has anyone here said that, gee< I lost my arm but I don't really believe it's gone? Of course not. Man, reading is fundamental.
Just to add, I feel the missing portion (not like the real thing, but it's definite) even now after 50 years.
First off, they aren't observably stronger - that is perception. They might be observably larger because when there is a gap or void in the body, the remaining pieces tend to move to fill that spot. when they move, scar tissue is formed which have roughly 2.5 times the density of normal tissue. Thus, there is an appearance of things being bigger (Actually they would be thicker).
From your responses, you make it seem like my experience is bunk and simply because you have lost fingers that you are an expert. I'm not refuting your experiences, I'm refuting your perception. Look, you've even agreed that the idea of there being feelings and phantom limbs exist. why, because it is nerve stimuli transmitting certain things to your brain. Yet the limbs are most definitely not there.
Yes, I definitely feel the missing part. It isn't because I wish it were still there, or any other reason than that there must be vestigial nerve function that sends the message.
As for increased strength and size, that is observable and a concrete fact.
These aren't "ideas" they are reality. And unless you've gone through same type of thing, you CANNOT really know what I'm talking about. Intellectual understanding just don't and can't even approximate the real thing.
I get the feeling you do.
I also get the feeling you are saying the scientific findings that have shown that senses do not get better or that grip strength and hand strength doesn't actually improves are bunk, too.
Nobody is denying what you feel - but I would most definitely say that what you are experiencing is perception and not reality.
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So when I compare the remaining digits on my damaged hand and they are observably larger/stronger than the digits on my undamaged hand, I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part?
First off, they aren't observably stronger - that is perception. They might be observably larger because when there is a gap or void in the body, the remaining pieces tend to move to fill that spot. when they move, scar tissue is formed which have roughly 2.5 times the density of normal tissue. Thus, there is an appearance of things being bigger (Actually they would be thicker).
From your responses, you make it seem like my experience is bunk and simply because you have lost fingers that you are an expert. I'm not refuting your experiences, I'm refuting your perception. Look, you've even agreed that the idea of there being feelings and phantom limbs exist. why, because it is nerve stimuli transmitting certain things to your brain. Yet the limbs are most definitely not there.
Whoever said that the missing pieces p[-arts WERE there. You're now pushing the limits here from my perspective. And yes, you all but baldly state that I'm either a liar or am delusional. You haven't really accepted or understood anything that I've had to say.
To repeat, the fingers have no scar tissue and are both longer than the comparable fingers on the undamaged hand, and are thicker with muscle; this is incontrovertibly, observably, and testably true.
Better to challenge FMiC to a finger curl competition.
I get the feeling you do.
I also get the feeling you are saying the scientific findings that have shown that senses do not get better or that grip strength and hand strength doesn't actually improves are bunk, too.
Nobody is denying what you feel - but I would most definitely say that what you are experiencing is perception and not reality.
And I say you are very insultingly and ignorantly incorrect.
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
Ok, so how did it get bigger? Did you take HGH or something? I'm just trying to understand how it got BIGGER. I've conceded the idea it of getting stronger. SO how much bigger? 1/8 inch? 1/4 inch? Curious.
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you saying that doctors who routinely perform amputations don't know what they are talking about?
I get the feeling you do.
I also get the feeling you are saying the scientific findings that have shown that senses do not get better or that grip strength and hand strength doesn't actually improves are bunk, too.
Nobody is denying what you feel - but I would most definitely say that what you are experiencing is perception and not reality.
And I say you are very insultingly and ignorantly incorrect.
To add, what I'm saying here (if you'll stop putting words in my mouth and attributing false statements to me) is that unless you actually experience something like this, you don't have clue one.
To state that the fingers have no scar tissue is evidence right there that you perceive the wrong things. Digits do not grow to compensate for the loss of other digits. Our bodies simply do not regenerate bone. If fingers are longer, it isn't due to them growing - it is due to shifting. It would be like saying a person with bunions observably has longer, thicker toes.
My response would be that every doctor who has 10 fingers and 10 toes cannot relate to the patients they operate on for amputations. They apparently don't have clue one.
For a person calling me ignorant, I can't even imagine what the inferences are on that quote above.
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Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
Ok, so how did it get bigger? Did you take HGH or something? I'm just trying to understand how it got BIGGER. I've conceded the idea it of getting stronger. SO how much bigger? 1/8 inch? 1/4 inch? Curious.
Through use. I've never let the condition get in the way of working whatever kinds of jobs were available, including construction, heavy landscaping, tree surgeon, etc. Shit, when you use muscles, they tend to get larger and stronger.
Because there was so much stress on the partial hand, there was obviously a reaction to it that absolutely translates into a stronger hand (for what it is) with larger, thicker fingers. The length is around 1/4" longer than the comparable fingers on the undamaged hand, and are visibly thicker (muscle).
The increase in length may be partly due to stress such as carrying heavy loads with the fingers alone; I'm not certain if this is a reason, but the evidence is there, even if FMiC insists that I'm delusional. Also, according to the medical community, I didn't stop growing physically until I was 25 (go figure).
The key in there is that it is often erroneously described as an enlargement of bone
We don't grow additional bone naturally. Despite appearances, your fingers cannot have grown longer with new bone. It is not scientifically possible.
If I understand the nature of this surgery, his hand will actually be narrower/smaller afterward. I can't even imagine how this is going to work. And never mind the skin grafts and nerve damage.
I don't see how he can be worth franchise-tag money at this point. But I don't see how the Giants can withdraw the tender at this point either. The coaching staff is on a short leash; they basically have a year to fix the team, and JPP was their best defensive player in 2014. As Eric said, this could cost the coaching staff their jobs.
It's a big mess.
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To repeat, the fingers have no scar tissue and are both longer than the comparable fingers on the undamaged hand, and are thicker with muscle; this is incontrovertibly, observably, and testably true
To state that the fingers have no scar tissue is evidence right there that you perceive the wrong things. Digits do not grow to compensate for the loss of other digits. Our bodies simply do not regenerate bone. If fingers are longer, it isn't due to them growing - it is due to shifting. It would be like saying a person with bunions observably has longer, thicker toes.
You made the scar tissue claim, sonny, noty me. I was responding to it. You're talking in absolutes, when there are no absolutes in these things. There are so many other factors that weigh in over time that to say that there's only one cause or result, or that something simply cannot happen is pure ignorance.
You quite unjustly accuse me of ignoring science. I accuse you of being an abject slave to it. Even if I shoved my hand in your face, you'd deny the evidence that's right in front of you. That's the very definition of a fool.
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To add, what I'm saying here (if you'll stop putting words in my mouth and attributing false statements to me) is that unless you actually experience something like this, you don't have clue one.
My response would be that every doctor who has 10 fingers and 10 toes cannot relate to the patients they operate on for amputations. They apparently don't have clue one.
For a person calling me ignorant, I can't even imagine what the inferences are on that quote above.
SAll you're doping is embarrassing yourself by attributing statements that I've never made. Are you that incapable?
Sure. I said way above that there's almost infinite variety in reactions. Losing a pinky isn't likely to cause what I have, because he still has the real, workable part of his hand. I lost the thumb, index, and forefinger. That doesn't leave much leftover to work with, but one does what one can.
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To add, what I'm saying here (if you'll stop putting words in my mouth and attributing false statements to me) is that unless you actually experience something like this, you don't have clue one.
My response would be that every doctor who has 10 fingers and 10 toes cannot relate to the patients they operate on for amputations. They apparently don't have clue one.
For a person calling me ignorant, I can't even imagine what the inferences are on that quote above.
SAll you're doping is embarrassing yourself by attributing statements that I've never made. Are you that incapable?
Lovely typos, but what would you expect?
That is only my unscientific assumption as one possible cause. If you've read everything on the thread, you'll also see that I didn't stop growing physically until I was 25.
Do you have personal experience with damaged parts of your hand?
Thanks. My remarks apply to the interdependence of hands
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So when I compare the remaining digits on my damaged hand and they are observably larger/stronger than the digits on my undamaged hand, I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part?
First off, they aren't observably stronger - that is perception. They might be observably larger because when there is a gap or void in the body, the remaining pieces tend to move to fill that spot. when they move, scar tissue is formed which have roughly 2.5 times the density of normal tissue. Thus, there is an appearance of things being bigger (Actually they would be thicker).
From your responses, you make it seem like my experience is bunk and simply because you have lost fingers that you are an expert. I'm not refuting your experiences, I'm refuting your perception. Look, you've even agreed that the idea of there being feelings and phantom limbs exist. why, because it is nerve stimuli transmitting certain things to your brain. Yet the limbs are most definitely not there.
Whoever said that the missing pieces p[-arts WERE there. You're now pushing the limits here from my perspective. And yes, you all but baldly state that I'm either a liar or am delusional. You haven't really accepted or understood anything that I've had to say.
To repeat, the fingers have no scar tissue and are both longer than the comparable fingers on the undamaged hand, and are thicker with muscle; this is incontrovertibly, observably, and testably true.
BMac, except that there are NO muscles in the fingers
I wouldn't deny the evidence, I'd explain it. Not in Supernatural terms, either.
It is so foolish that this rabbit hole started because Thomas insinuated that JPP's remaining hand parts will likely be stronger.
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In comment 12364231 BMac said:
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In comment 12363911 area junc said:
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get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger.
Larger???? Perhaps stronger, but how can digits actually grow (once puberty ends)?
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
The reliability and usefulness of eyewitness testimony has long been questioned and doubted.
Let's remember that this is a human being, please: I know everybody wants their football team to do well. But Jason Pierre-Paul is a 26-year-old man who just became a father and is dealing with a scary, life-altering trauma. Yes, he did a dumb thing....but no one is as upset about this as Pierre-Paul, and no one else lost a body part over it. He's the one sitting in a hospital bed wondering how this is going to affect his life, his career and his family. That's heavy stuff. These players are people...We lose sight of that too often...it's worth pausing to think about the real-life part of it.
now I wish I'd paid more attention when I slashed the end of my finger open. would have been nice to take a closer look.
now I wish I'd paid more attention when I slashed the end of my finger open. would have been nice to take a closer look.
LOL! I suspect most people would find that hard to believe.
now I wish I'd paid more attention when I slashed the end of my finger open. would have been nice to take a closer look.
If you think about it, there's no way that the amount of muscle that could fit in your fingers could account for the gripping power you have.
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In comment 12364306 speedywheels said:
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In comment 12364231 BMac said:
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In comment 12363911 area junc said:
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get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger.
Larger???? Perhaps stronger, but how can digits actually grow (once puberty ends)?
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
The reliability and usefulness of eyewitness testimony has long been questioned and doubted.
Always by those who haven't actually experienced a particular situation. You know, assholes.
Do you have personal experience with damaged parts of your hand?
Thanks. My remarks apply to the interdependence of hands
I would have thought that it was abundantly obvious that I was talking from m personal experience, but yes, I got blown up a long, long time ago and took the hit to the whole left side of my body, but the left hand is basically a strip steak with two fingers. Not as tasty, however!
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Even if I shoved my hand in your face, you'd deny the evidence that's right in front of you. That's the very definition of a fool.
I wouldn't deny the evidence, I'd explain it. Not in Supernatural terms, either.
It is so foolish that this rabbit hole started because Thomas insinuated that JPP's remaining hand parts will likely be stronger.
Well, you are an asshiole, and have proved yourself as such many times. This is just one more. Hopefully, I'll meet you one day and introduce you to my delusion. You won't enjoy it, but you will learn something.
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In comment 12364567 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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So when I compare the remaining digits on my damaged hand and they are observably larger/stronger than the digits on my undamaged hand, I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part?
First off, they aren't observably stronger - that is perception. They might be observably larger because when there is a gap or void in the body, the remaining pieces tend to move to fill that spot. when they move, scar tissue is formed which have roughly 2.5 times the density of normal tissue. Thus, there is an appearance of things being bigger (Actually they would be thicker).
From your responses, you make it seem like my experience is bunk and simply because you have lost fingers that you are an expert. I'm not refuting your experiences, I'm refuting your perception. Look, you've even agreed that the idea of there being feelings and phantom limbs exist. why, because it is nerve stimuli transmitting certain things to your brain. Yet the limbs are most definitely not there.
Whoever said that the missing pieces p[-arts WERE there. You're now pushing the limits here from my perspective. And yes, you all but baldly state that I'm either a liar or am delusional. You haven't really accepted or understood anything that I've had to say.
To repeat, the fingers have no scar tissue and are both longer than the comparable fingers on the undamaged hand, and are thicker with muscle; this is incontrovertibly, observably, and testably true.
BMac, except that there are NO muscles in the fingers
Yeah, I know that, but again, ad nauseum, I can demonstrate conclusively that the fingers remaining on the damaged hand are larger, longer, and stronger than the similar digits on the un damaged hand.
I fail to understand why this is unable to be countenanced here. I mean really, fuck the bunch of you. I've never been particularly sensitive about it, but the level of vitriol and dismissal of a fucking demonstrable, observable thing on here are rather unbelievable.
Here's the challenge. All the doubters and know-it-alls on here are hereby challenged, an one thousand dollars a throw, to disprove my claims.
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In comment 12364518 BMac said:
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In comment 12364306 speedywheels said:
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In comment 12364231 BMac said:
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In comment 12363911 area junc said:
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get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger.
Larger???? Perhaps stronger, but how can digits actually grow (once puberty ends)?
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
The reliability and usefulness of eyewitness testimony has long been questioned and doubted.
Always by those who haven't actually experienced a particular situation. You know, assholes.
Yup, what an asshole! - ( New Window )
I've already learned something in this thread. That somebody can live with a condition for 50 years and still not understand it.
I have doubt you believe that your fingers grew bigger and stronger. All I'm saying is that it is scientifically impossible to do so.
Nothing I've said in this thread is MY opinion. It is the opinion of medical and scientific professionals. So, I guess there are a bunch of assholes out there who need you to stick your hand in their faces and threaten.