Honestly, after what I learned about this from my neighbors accident, I'd be very surprise if he plays this year. The grafting is very delicate and not to be over exerted.
Just awful. How much of his hand is actually gone? Just looking at my hand, that seems like a huge gap between the thumb and middle finger.And the thumb is fractured and wil be unstable and overly exposed.
i just remembered. JPP after a sack always does the no no no with his index finger...now what? lol all jokes aside we could be losing a top 5 DE in football and a big reason our defense isnt high school level. we need JPP its a real shame his stupidity put us in this situation
RE: knuckle too! OUCH!. And a skin graft up his wrist? Â
Honestly, after what I learned about this from my neighbors accident, I'd be very surprise if he plays this year.
If he didn't plan on play (and playing soon) he wouldn't have had his index finger amputated. Doing so was the quickest way to recovery so to make that decision, his sites are clearly on this season.
i just remembered. JPP after a sack always does the no no no with his index finger...now what? lol all jokes aside we could be losing a top 5 DE in football and a big reason our defense isnt high school level. we need JPP its a real shame his stupidity put us in this situation
the defense has been high school level the past several seasons ... have you watched ?
on Sirius about JPP..One of the things that was encouraging was that of all the grafts used for burns, the "split-skin" graft is the one patients recover with the fastest..To his knowledge, that's what JPP had..
This description certainly contradicts any thoughts Â
floated around here of JPP being ready to start the season. For one, his fractured thumb will take 6 weeks to heal. For another, the graft is likely to take longer than that by at least a few more weeks. At that point is when he can first start thinking about lifting in some way, shape, or form. It also may be when he can first start OT for his amputated finger, as the graft will prevent him from putting any pressure on that hand until healed. So, we are looking at early September before he can even start earnestly getting ready to play. What kind of shape was he in to begin with? Will he put in a ton of cardio to stay in shape? How long will it take to get strong enough to play? An optimistic time table would probably have him truly ready to play after 4-5 weeks into the season. More realistic is later than that.
While the Giants wouldn't have to pay him for missed games as the franchise tagged player, I believe the full amount of the tag applies to the cap. The giants really need to evaluate him themselves before even considering allowing him to sign that tender.
I think the D will still be better. Mostly because they were so bad the last couple of seasons, they can't really get worse. I am not enamored with Spags as most are here, but he is still a far better DC than Fewell was.
big question too is does JPP refuse to come into the facility until he thinks he is ready to play?
That may benefit him financially this year (no NFI) but it would hurt the team as he will be so far behind in Spags' defense. Strahan told people it took him a month to become comfortable with the system. And Strahan's a lot smarter than JPP.
that the D will be b etter without him, but I wonder how much better the team might be if they can use the $$ for JPP elsewhere.
Look, even in a best case scenario, you'll have a guy coming off a broken thumb with a diminished grip strength. I don't think it is pessimistic to say that a DE has to use his hands each play, both in gaining leverage and shedding blocks, but also to tackle.
I just can't see how JPP can recover and be a top player in the league in 2015, and if he can't, then there is little reason to give him the tender.
Frankly, I'd have no issue letting him walk now and hopefully a division rival does pick him up. Let him become their issue. He's very quickly in a Hakeem Nicks or Steve Smith-like territory now. And in any case is certainly not going to be worth the money in 2015 and without a long-term contract, he'd walk before 2016 anyway.
That's an excellent point. I would feel slightly better about this if JPP was getting examined and monitored by the giants staff and doing the requisite film work, observing practices, sitting in on meetings, etc. So far, there is no indication that he is willing to do any of that.
I think Fats has a good point. If he can't play, move on. Â
who is stating that he will be ready for the opening game? It's his own camp.....
Was there a rush to judgement of what should be done to his hand? Was JPP so afraid of the possible negative outcomes of his hand, that he chose the amputation and timeline the doctor's gave him, so that he would be ready for opening day, just to get the full 15M, if his career was in jeopardy?
Another question is, did he get the best medical advice and best doctors? Who counselled him on these decisions? His agent?
There was no changing what happened....wouldn't the rational thing be, to get the best medical advice and doctors, even if it meant informing the Giants?
If Jpp is in his last year and won't be giving the Giants a full year - might a trade make sense. Yes, 9 fingered JPP is worth less but if he walks away at the end of the year we get nothing. And, a team would not have to compete against other teams.
I'm aware this is probably not going to happen. For all the complaints about drafting team captains - this is what you get when you draft immature guys, you have to babysit.
If Jpp is in his last year and won't be giving the Giants a full year - might a trade make sense. Yes, 9 fingered JPP is worth less but if he walks away at the end of the year we get nothing. And, a team would not have to compete against other teams.
I'm aware this is probably not going to happen. For all the complaints about drafting team captains - this is what you get when you draft immature guys, you have to babysit.
Who would trade for him? Even without this, why trade anything when you have no guarantee of keeping him? And can sign him for no comp as an FA?
If Jpp is in his last year and won't be giving the Giants a full year - might a trade make sense. Yes, 9 fingered JPP is worth less but if he walks away at the end of the year we get nothing. And, a team would not have to compete against other teams.
I'm aware this is probably not going to happen. For all the complaints about drafting team captains - this is what you get when you draft immature guys, you have to babysit.
Who would trade for him? Even without this, why trade anything when you have no guarantee of keeping him? And can sign him for no comp as an FA?
Agree with Fats and have been echoing his sentiments along with Terps et al..Victor, the main reason a team might trade for him is to assure, albeit a small window(1 season?), that they have exclusive negotiating rights to him while others will not
Probably no one. The only benefit to the trade would be the opportunity to get him acclimated to your organization. A team where JPP might want to play might have an advantage of keeping him.
Big problem is he probably sees his asking numbers as realistic and will plan on playing well enough to prove he worth those numbers during whatever games he is able to offer the Giants.
Very unfortunate what happened to him, but it was unnecessary, self-induced - in the end he will probably be a wasted 1st round pick who showed glimpses of what he might become and left the team being a major pain in the ass.
A. He's a player they think highly enough about to give him the franchise tag and offer him a 60 million dollar deal.
B. The Giants are generally a classy team who stick by their guys like family even if they act like rebellious teenagers.
However, after this season JPP may end up like Steve Smith. He didn't take the money when he could have and then disaster strikes. This may end well but it doesn't look good at all.
Some media reports and more than a few fans here were saying the amputation allows him to get ready for the start of the season. Notice, no doctors actually have said. It is almost certainly pure BS.
the other 3
area junc : 11:42 am : link : reply
fingers will get much stronger than normal and the middle finger may assume some function of the index
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
This isn't usually how hand injuries work. When you lose a finger, it often has several other complications. The palm narrows. The grip strength lessens. The friction points can cause impediments to movement. There is sometimes float that happens when bones start to shift now there is a more open area. There is little to no evidence to show other fingers taking on the burden and becoming stronger.
Excellent post. I do think the D will be better than last year, with or without JPP. but, that is more an indictment on Fewell than anything else. It is also the result of probable upgrades at S and LB and having a deeper DL.
Do I think they would have been even better with a healthy JPP? Absolutely. but, when will that scenario become a reality, if at all?
I agree 100% with not even applying the tag at this point. I'm not worried about what they have to pay in salary. I am more concerned with the unnecessary cap hit that could be applied in many other ways.
the other 3
area junc : 11:42 am : link : reply
fingers will get much stronger than normal and the middle finger may assume some function of the index
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
This isn't usually how hand injuries work. When you lose a finger, it often has several other complications. The palm narrows. The grip strength lessens. The friction points can cause impediments to movement. There is sometimes float that happens when bones start to shift now there is a more open area. There is little to no evidence to show other fingers taking on the burden and becoming stronger.
Have no clue where that idea originated from.
Exactly my thoughts when he made the same type of statements on another thread yesterday..I was going to answer it, but thought better of it..I'm not as foolish as you..:)
The skin graft makes it much more complicated, because it prevents full rehab and strengthening of the rest of the hand until the graft is healed. That will take longer to heal than the other injuries/conditions. So, even if his thumb is healed in 6 weeks, that is the absolute earliest he will be able to start lifting and that is highly unlikely because of the graft.
I was speaking to my good friend who is a top orthopedic surgeon and skin grafts only take a week to heal like any kind of incision. That doesn't mean it's completely normal but the healing if the skin graft by itself isn't a major factor.
but the skin graft is going to make it more complicated.
I agree Victor. I think any expectations that he'll be ready to play by game 6 or even game 8 are way too high. At best he'll maybe have 8 games in which to learn how to play and really hold off the offense with his new disabilities. I don't expect him to even be a shell of what he was by the end of 2015. I hope I'm dead wrong because the Giants so far look serious about keeping him but I just don't see how he's going to be more effective than a second or third string player this year.
Now if he was a guy like Cruz I could raise my expectations a little but he doesn't have that level of love of the game or he would have heeded the warnings the coaches gave them before they let them off about the consequences of the choices you make.
JPP REFUSEd to see Giants staff. He could have chosen to allow them in and all but he blew them off.
Whatever the reason(s) and all, I just don't like the way this plays out. He made a mistake, a costly one, and no matter how you slice it everyone here loses.
If we had a crystal ball, we should have let him walk via free agency and picked up a #3 comp pick for 2016. Alas, no crystal balls exist so we have to live with whatever comes out these next few days.
My gut tells me if he has an attitude with the Giants and is playing games, why pay him $15 million??? I realize he is likely our best defender but sometimes "cancer" (personality) is worse. I dunno.
Don't have any confirmation that this photo of his hand is true... Â
I would have guessed the ring finger was practically useless like a little toe, and the index finger was among the most important, interesting seeing the ranking of ring finger 2nd and index last.
RE: Don't have any confirmation that this photo of his hand is true... Â
Without a knuckle his palm will be rounded off no way he can tackle. Also the skill graft will be challenge as they will have to deep pin the graft to bone. what a dumb move here
Who is his agent and why would he give this advice? Â
The Giants may have issues but there are things that they at least try to do correctly. One of those things is that the Giants take full advantage of being located near some of the best medical facilities in the world. While JPP is within his rights as a free agent (and forget about football, as a citizen) to handle his medical care using his own advisors, doctors and decision making process, this is clearly a case of listening to the wrong people.
the fingers
area junc : 12:14 pm : link : reply
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing.
But what you've written above simply isn't true. Losing digits of any sort doesn't result in greater strength in the remaining digits. This isn't a case of a guy in a wheelchair developing Popeye arms from pushing himself all over the place.
From a medical standpoint, fingers, especially have a really hard time functioning even like they did before in the absence of their partner fingers that have been removed.
any decisions regarding the tag. doing so now only makes the Giants look like dicks. and would be stupid because there's still a lot to learn.
If JPP continues his attitude of refusing to let the Giants help, the Giants can use that to their advantage in setting up the PR for the yank of the tag.
JPP isn't going to rehab in solitude just because he didn't sign the tag, show up the week before season starts and say here I am. The media and the Giants will be watching, whether invited or not. Giants have already leaked that they won't financially penalize him if he signs and allows them access, and learns the system. If he refuses, it's going to be public, and the Giants are off the hook for being the bad guy if they see how his rehab is going and decide he's not worth it for the year.
Don't really know why JPP wouldn't cooperate. If Giants cut bait, there is no way he's getting an elite contract long term or short. his best option is a low paid show me year and hope he returns to form. If he signs and cooperates, the Giants are NOT going to screw him all to hell. So what if he did lose 6 games of pay? at this point he is NOT getting 9 mil on a one year show me deal from anyone else, which is what he'd be getting from the Giants. and if this is the attitude of players after all the Giants have done taking care of their own, from a PR standpoint, there's no point in taking care of their own.
NY Post article says the remaining fingers could be Â
"Also, according to Bleacher Report, Pierre-Paul suffered a fracture to his right thumb and may have fractures in other fingers on his right hand.
Kevin Roenbeck, New Jersey hand surgeon, cautioned against expecting too much too soon. Based on the medical chart, which the doctor said was an operating room schedule, Roenbeck noted the entire bone was amputated, all the way into his palm, including his entire knuckle. The strength in JPP’s right hand may never be the same.
“That cannot be dismissed,” Roenbeck said. “There’s no guarantee he can be the same defensive end he was. It changes your hand forever and narrows the palm.”
Some people lose up to 35 percent of their strength when losing an index finger, others as little as 5 to 10 percent, Roenbeck said.
Then there is the issue of the burns Pierre-Paul suffered. Roenbeck said they could either be severe second-degree burns or third-degree, based on the chart. In either case, they often take a while to heal. There also is the chance of infection, and further surgery. Roenbeck estimated Pierre-Paul could be out up to three months, but that was merely a guess based on the information available." JPP had finger amputated, ‘no guarantee’ he’ll be the same - ( New Window )
he may be confusing the 5 fingers with the 5 senses :) although even there, he'd still be wrong, since the other senses don't get stronger, you simply become more in tune with them.
Need to wait and see what the actual situation is Â
still too much speculation. However, long term he may still be a very effective DE. I've seen may games where DLineman play with their entire hand in a wrap (like a club) and they are effective. It certainly may affect him on some plays, but most plays the DE are wrapping up with the arms when tackling, not grabbing with their hands and throwing them down. Remember when everyone was saying that Rich Seubert was done, and spoke matter of factly about it??? Now it took him two years, but he was a damn effective player for the SB46 run.
. Let's remember that this is a human being, please: I know everybody wants their football team to do well. But Jason Pierre-Paul is a 26-year-old man who just became a father and is dealing with a scary, life-altering trauma. Yes, he did a dumb thing. We all do dumb things. We hope they don't have ugly consequences, but sometimes they do. I know the Giants are upset, and I know fans are upset, but no one is as upset about this as Pierre-Paul, and no one else lost a body part over it. He's the one sitting in a hospital bed wondering how this is going to affect his life, his career and his family. That's heavy stuff. These players are people, not merely characters who appear in a TV show every Sunday afternoon in the fall. We lose sight of that too often, and as we process all of this over the coming days, weeks and months, it's worth pausing to think about the real-life part of it.
I know I did plenty of stupid shit when I was 26 (and beyond). I also had a big toe amputated 2 years ago (not self-inflicted) and spent 10 days in a hospital not knowing if I'd ever be able to walk or run normally again. Not a happy time.
With all that said I'm really starting to lean towards FMIC's position. Cut bait now and apply the money elsewhere, or roll it over.
Just awful. How much of his hand is actually gone? Just looking at my hand, that seems like a huge gap between the thumb and middle finger.And the thumb is fractured and wil be unstable and overly exposed.
If he didn't plan on play (and playing soon) he wouldn't have had his index finger amputated. Doing so was the quickest way to recovery so to make that decision, his sites are clearly on this season.
the defense has been high school level the past several seasons ... have you watched ?
While the Giants wouldn't have to pay him for missed games as the franchise tagged player, I believe the full amount of the tag applies to the cap. The giants really need to evaluate him themselves before even considering allowing him to sign that tender.
That may benefit him financially this year (no NFI) but it would hurt the team as he will be so far behind in Spags' defense. Strahan told people it took him a month to become comfortable with the system. And Strahan's a lot smarter than JPP.
Look, even in a best case scenario, you'll have a guy coming off a broken thumb with a diminished grip strength. I don't think it is pessimistic to say that a DE has to use his hands each play, both in gaining leverage and shedding blocks, but also to tackle.
I just can't see how JPP can recover and be a top player in the league in 2015, and if he can't, then there is little reason to give him the tender.
Frankly, I'd have no issue letting him walk now and hopefully a division rival does pick him up. Let him become their issue. He's very quickly in a Hakeem Nicks or Steve Smith-like territory now. And in any case is certainly not going to be worth the money in 2015 and without a long-term contract, he'd walk before 2016 anyway.
Was there a rush to judgement of what should be done to his hand? Was JPP so afraid of the possible negative outcomes of his hand, that he chose the amputation and timeline the doctor's gave him, so that he would be ready for opening day, just to get the full 15M, if his career was in jeopardy?
Another question is, did he get the best medical advice and best doctors? Who counselled him on these decisions? His agent?
There was no changing what happened....wouldn't the rational thing be, to get the best medical advice and doctors, even if it meant informing the Giants?
I'm aware this is probably not going to happen. For all the complaints about drafting team captains - this is what you get when you draft immature guys, you have to babysit.
I'm aware this is probably not going to happen. For all the complaints about drafting team captains - this is what you get when you draft immature guys, you have to babysit.
Who would trade for him? Even without this, why trade anything when you have no guarantee of keeping him? And can sign him for no comp as an FA?
Quote:
If Jpp is in his last year and won't be giving the Giants a full year - might a trade make sense. Yes, 9 fingered JPP is worth less but if he walks away at the end of the year we get nothing. And, a team would not have to compete against other teams.
I'm aware this is probably not going to happen. For all the complaints about drafting team captains - this is what you get when you draft immature guys, you have to babysit.
Who would trade for him? Even without this, why trade anything when you have no guarantee of keeping him? And can sign him for no comp as an FA?
Agree with Fats and have been echoing his sentiments along with Terps et al..Victor, the main reason a team might trade for him is to assure, albeit a small window(1 season?), that they have exclusive negotiating rights to him while others will not
Big problem is he probably sees his asking numbers as realistic and will plan on playing well enough to prove he worth those numbers during whatever games he is able to offer the Giants.
Very unfortunate what happened to him, but it was unnecessary, self-induced - in the end he will probably be a wasted 1st round pick who showed glimpses of what he might become and left the team being a major pain in the ass.
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
B. The Giants are generally a classy team who stick by their guys like family even if they act like rebellious teenagers.
However, after this season JPP may end up like Steve Smith. He didn't take the money when he could have and then disaster strikes. This may end well but it doesn't look good at all.
Did Strahan's holdout have something to do with learning it slowly?
area junc : 11:42 am : link : reply
fingers will get much stronger than normal and the middle finger may assume some function of the index
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
This isn't usually how hand injuries work. When you lose a finger, it often has several other complications. The palm narrows. The grip strength lessens. The friction points can cause impediments to movement. There is sometimes float that happens when bones start to shift now there is a more open area. There is little to no evidence to show other fingers taking on the burden and becoming stronger.
Have no clue where that idea originated from.
Do I think they would have been even better with a healthy JPP? Absolutely. but, when will that scenario become a reality, if at all?
I agree 100% with not even applying the tag at this point. I'm not worried about what they have to pay in salary. I am more concerned with the unnecessary cap hit that could be applied in many other ways.
Quote:
the other 3
area junc : 11:42 am : link : reply
fingers will get much stronger than normal and the middle finger may assume some function of the index
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
This isn't usually how hand injuries work. When you lose a finger, it often has several other complications. The palm narrows. The grip strength lessens. The friction points can cause impediments to movement. There is sometimes float that happens when bones start to shift now there is a more open area. There is little to no evidence to show other fingers taking on the burden and becoming stronger.
Have no clue where that idea originated from.
Exactly my thoughts when he made the same type of statements on another thread yesterday..I was going to answer it, but thought better of it..I'm not as foolish as you..:)
And then there's Chris in Philly's favorite all-time player, Mordecai "three-finger" Brown..
I agree Victor. I think any expectations that he'll be ready to play by game 6 or even game 8 are way too high. At best he'll maybe have 8 games in which to learn how to play and really hold off the offense with his new disabilities. I don't expect him to even be a shell of what he was by the end of 2015. I hope I'm dead wrong because the Giants so far look serious about keeping him but I just don't see how he's going to be more effective than a second or third string player this year.
Now if he was a guy like Cruz I could raise my expectations a little but he doesn't have that level of love of the game or he would have heeded the warnings the coaches gave them before they let them off about the consequences of the choices you make.
Whatever the reason(s) and all, I just don't like the way this plays out. He made a mistake, a costly one, and no matter how you slice it everyone here loses.
If we had a crystal ball, we should have let him walk via free agency and picked up a #3 comp pick for 2016. Alas, no crystal balls exist so we have to live with whatever comes out these next few days.
My gut tells me if he has an attitude with the Giants and is playing games, why pay him $15 million??? I realize he is likely our best defender but sometimes "cancer" (personality) is worse. I dunno.
https://twitter.com/subredditsbot/status/619173378105176064
Link - ( New Window )
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
https://twitter.com/subredditsbot/status/619173378105176064 Link - ( New Window )
Can't tell but isn't that a left hand?
area junc : 12:14 pm : link : reply
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing.
But what you've written above simply isn't true. Losing digits of any sort doesn't result in greater strength in the remaining digits. This isn't a case of a guy in a wheelchair developing Popeye arms from pushing himself all over the place.
From a medical standpoint, fingers, especially have a really hard time functioning even like they did before in the absence of their partner fingers that have been removed.
If JPP continues his attitude of refusing to let the Giants help, the Giants can use that to their advantage in setting up the PR for the yank of the tag.
JPP isn't going to rehab in solitude just because he didn't sign the tag, show up the week before season starts and say here I am. The media and the Giants will be watching, whether invited or not. Giants have already leaked that they won't financially penalize him if he signs and allows them access, and learns the system. If he refuses, it's going to be public, and the Giants are off the hook for being the bad guy if they see how his rehab is going and decide he's not worth it for the year.
Don't really know why JPP wouldn't cooperate. If Giants cut bait, there is no way he's getting an elite contract long term or short. his best option is a low paid show me year and hope he returns to form. If he signs and cooperates, the Giants are NOT going to screw him all to hell. So what if he did lose 6 games of pay? at this point he is NOT getting 9 mil on a one year show me deal from anyone else, which is what he'd be getting from the Giants. and if this is the attitude of players after all the Giants have done taking care of their own, from a PR standpoint, there's no point in taking care of their own.
"Also, according to Bleacher Report, Pierre-Paul suffered a fracture to his right thumb and may have fractures in other fingers on his right hand.
Kevin Roenbeck, New Jersey hand surgeon, cautioned against expecting too much too soon. Based on the medical chart, which the doctor said was an operating room schedule, Roenbeck noted the entire bone was amputated, all the way into his palm, including his entire knuckle. The strength in JPP’s right hand may never be the same.
“That cannot be dismissed,” Roenbeck said. “There’s no guarantee he can be the same defensive end he was. It changes your hand forever and narrows the palm.”
Some people lose up to 35 percent of their strength when losing an index finger, others as little as 5 to 10 percent, Roenbeck said.
Then there is the issue of the burns Pierre-Paul suffered. Roenbeck said they could either be severe second-degree burns or third-degree, based on the chart. In either case, they often take a while to heal. There also is the chance of infection, and further surgery. Roenbeck estimated Pierre-Paul could be out up to three months, but that was merely a guess based on the information available."
JPP had finger amputated, ‘no guarantee’ he’ll be the same - ( New Window )
I know I did plenty of stupid shit when I was 26 (and beyond). I also had a big toe amputated 2 years ago (not self-inflicted) and spent 10 days in a hospital not knowing if I'd ever be able to walk or run normally again. Not a happy time.
With all that said I'm really starting to lean towards FMIC's position. Cut bait now and apply the money elsewhere, or roll it over.