at the party? I'm surprised that hasn't filtered out yet.
His neighbors were tweeting about it while he was lighting off fireworks. Some neighbors in their houses were upset and younger "adults" were setting them off with him.
RE: I'd pull the franchise tag and spend the money towards Eli or Prince
Imagine the future cap space we'd save by front-loading a contract for one of those players (assuming they're in our long term plans).
Not very realistic to think that either Prince or Eli would accept a deal that's heavily front-loaded. It's less long-term security for them when it's the long-term security that players are looking for.
RE: RE: I'd pull the franchise tag and spend the money towards Eli or Prince
Imagine the future cap space we'd save by front-loading a contract for one of those players (assuming they're in our long term plans).
Not very realistic to think that either Prince or Eli would accept a deal that's heavily front-loaded. It's less long-term security for them when it's the long-term security that players are looking for.
????
Players love front loaded deals.
What they could do is instead of giving a big bonus which gets prorated over the live of that contract, move some of that money to the usually low first year of the contract to take more of the hit now
I think you have it backwards - salary isn't guaranteed so front loading = more money now and less at the tail end of the contract (money that players are unlikely to see).
A player would jump at that. Given our unique cap position if we were to rescind with JPP, it would make sense for us as well.
Exactly. Thats why I would do that and use the future cap savings towards other players/free agents next year. I fear that JPP's health will be a problem all year and potentially beyond.
Front loading a contract makes it easier to cut a player
down the line, which is why I said it's less security
Yes, it's more money now, but for a player like Prince, who's 26, it's going to result in a player looking to re-do his deal later if he continues to develop into a better player. He's not going to be content with his contract if he's undervalued compared to his position as a 28 year old who just made his first all-pro team.
RE: Front loading a contract makes it easier to cut a player
down the line, which is why I said it's less security
Yes, it's more money now, but for a player like Prince, who's 26, it's going to result in a player looking to re-do his deal later if he continues to develop into a better player. He's not going to be content with his contract if he's undervalued compared to his position as a 28 year old who just made his first all-pro team.
First of all, lets go with the assumption that the total value and the guaranteed amounts are the same.
Front loading the cap hits buy not using signing bonus to its full extent doesn't make it easier to cut a player.
Yes, there will be less dead money if you do want to cut them, but there will also be less to gain as their cap hit will be lower.
but then I saw player after player after player start whining that they're underpaid in the latter years. See Strahan as exhibit A. Osi as exhibit B.
players love front loaded. they make their money, and if they're good enough, can hold the team's feet to the fire and get a raise later on. if they're not good enough, they're still affordable to keep, so they don't get ditched.
methinks the opposite is true. the more you make, with talent being the same, the easier it is to cut. you save more money. When have you ever heard of a boss keeping a higher priced employee over a lower priced one?
I do not see why we would tender him for all that money unless he agrees to long term deal for the future. We will get nothing this year from him and he may leave next year to the highest bidder anyway. Why waste the money, we are screwed let him go and lets move on.
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger. It's hardly an ideal situation, but there are a few people on here speaking out their asses.
the fingers
area junc : 12:14 pm : link : reply
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing.
But what you've written above simply isn't true. Losing digits of any sort doesn't result in greater strength in the remaining digits. This isn't a case of a guy in a wheelchair developing Popeye arms from pushing himself all over the place.
From a medical standpoint, fingers, especially have a really hard time functioning even like they did before in the absence of their partner fingers that have been removed.
but that hand and the other pics on the right with the fingers missing skin don't compute. I can't imagine they would remove all that skin from his fingers? Unless it was beyond repair that we're not educated to recognize.
the other 3
area junc : 11:42 am : link : reply
fingers will get much stronger than normal and the middle finger may assume some function of the index
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
This isn't usually how hand injuries work. When you lose a finger, it often has several other complications. The palm narrows. The grip strength lessens. The friction points can cause impediments to movement. There is sometimes float that happens when bones start to shift now there is a more open area. There is little to no evidence to show other fingers taking on the burden and becoming stronger.
Have no clue where that idea originated from.
It's area junc. Thanks for the informative post.
If. That is his hand, he won't be playing for MONTHS
Things we know.
JPP decision making is very questionable.
He has not surrounded himself with people to keep him from making poor decisions or he does not trust them enough to listen to them.
JPP has lost a finger
JPP had skin grafts
JPP fractured his hand.
JPP chose to amputate so he could play sooner (A very big deal)
What does it all mean? We just don't know yet. Here is what I hope.
That he signs the tender immediately so he can go to meetings, learn the new defense and have access to everything a billion dollar franchise has to offer from facilities to services. I hope he gets well and does not give in to despair, he did a very foolish thing, at some point I expect he will get down on himself for what he has lost. Despair and depression is very dangerous. I hope he surrounds himself with people strong enough to tell him no and he respects those people enough to listen. He has the potential to grow from this. A slightly reduced physical JPP but more mature and harder working JPP could be a better player.
RE: If. That is his hand, he won't be playing for MONTHS
That is a mess.
Giants need to find right time to cut him loose.
If that's his hand and given the way he has treated the Giants staff, I'd respect his privacy and respectfully rescind the franchise tender. I'd try to find a way to use that money to wrap Eli up for the remainder of his career. Front load , what ever. One thing we know about Eli, he will honor any contract he signs and won't complain about it.
I feel bad for JPP, but it him that is taking the Giants out of Giant for life. Can he come back to his old form? Maybe. Will he be able to come back to his old form this year? Not if that is his hand we have seen.
Gets more acute. So, it's natural if you lose a finger the rest of your hand gets stronger or maybe that strength is spread out throughout the rest of his body. JPP will be back full strength plus one finger strength. Probably all-pro this year.
@ProFootballDoc: Index finger is least important for grip (football DE). Grab a golf club & you will see what I mean. Of course important for fine pinch etc.
@ProFootballDoc: My ranking of finger importance in a defensive end:
1) thumb
2) ring
3) pinkie (4th & 5th most important for power grip)
4) middle
5) index
Former NFL head team physician with 17 yrs of sideline experience. Orthopedic Surgeon. Real time inside look at injuries/medical issues. MondayMorningMD @NFpost
It would be nice if you define "talking out of their asses". In my case, I've been involved with rehabilitation, healthcare and prosthetic development for the past 20+ years. I now work for the medical sector of a 3-D printing company that is producing bone implants, prosthetics (especially for children to keep costs down), dentures/invisalign braces, and a host of other medical applications.
I have been with hundreds of people who have lost fingers or toes and hundreds more who have lost limbs. As mentioned above, the idea that the remaining digits increase in strength is not the common reality. Each amputation is different, but when there is a loss of a digit, the structure of the palm or foot is altered. Grip strength or foot control is affected by a certain % no matter how minor the injury or how healthy the person is. I can think of not one single instance where grip strength actually improves. And this doesn't even account situations where digits are lost due to diabetic complications, where the idea that the remaining pieces get stronger is completely laughable.
As fkap pointed out, there is a myth that if somebody goes blind that their remaining senses strengthen. This has actually been proven false, but I bet a lot of people here would swear by it. what happens is that you focus more on the other senses. They aren't any better performing, you simply recognize them more because you aren't spending energy trying to see.
Same concept applies with a loss of digits. Those people heathy enough and with a hand or foot structure relatively unaffected can still function. But it is not a situation where the remaining digits somehow bulk up or grow a different musculatory structure. If they appear to be larger it is because of two factors:
1) The remaining digits often shift position as the hand becomes deformed
2) the scar tissue often takes on a thicker appearance than normal tissue, which often gives the look of the limb being "puffy".
You and thomas make it sound like it is common for the remaining fingers to not only maintain their current function, but actually compensate and take on the strength of the missing digit or digits. That simply isn't supported by the evidence. I consult weekly with medical people who specialize in amputations and loss of limbs/digits. We discuss how to properly build prosthetics for their patients. I have never heard any commentary that would suggest the remaining fingers get stronger. Perception isn't always reality.
rather than deconstruct the opinion, lets just do this:
Lets just look at a your hand. and wrist. and arm.
Look or feel for the bones through the wrist area.
Ditto the blood supply network
Ditto the nerves which go from the fingers up into the arm.
Now look at the bottom of your hand ( palm up as you rest your lower arm on a table.
Flex each finger slowly. Note the tendons and muscles move all the way up your arm. each muscle has its own nerve and blood supply. Each bone in your hand has its own cartilage and tendons holding it in place and keeping the blood vessels and nerves from being squeezed or displaced.
Now imagine that complexly coordinated and completely interdependent "ecosystem" losing spacing, health, infection resistance, nerve paths, size, and shape.
Lets imagine nerves transmitting the sensations for tactile sense, sense of pressure, heat, nerves for harnessing muscle, nerves for auto response. Harm some responses...harm all. slow some responses, slow all.
Now lets stop and leave the hand wrist and arm behind. Now lets look up neuroplasticity. Neuroplasticity is the brains nature to shape by habit and learned pathways and once established ....to resist change. Its one reason people with amputations still feel they feel things. But they really don't.
The hand is not a simple organ in simple response on one metric ....like when strength of an unused part grows when it is used more often.
I know we want JPP to be a great player for us. But we cant make up physical reality to conform to our desires. The guy did not break a leg of tear a tendon. He wrecked a delicately balanced and complex interactive part of his body.
Yet, if last spring we used a first round pick on a defensive end that was missing a finger on his hand from birth people would wonder if Reese lost his mind.
But the guy that lost his finger two months before the season will be fine. OK.
intelligent poster. Not saying he's right or wrong, but I do remember him stating over and over again that there was no way Rich Seubert would play again after his Leg injury, and that turned out false. Assuming the hand heals reasonably well, JPP could be an effective DE going forward even w/o the finger. I think we need to wait and see how long that process will take. By guess is at least 4 months.
If he doesn't sign, the Giants don't pay him. If he does sign and he can't play, then the Giants can just NFI him and not pay him. He has no leverage and the Giants have little incentive to release him.
The only logical reason to get rid of him would be if they were to extend another player, but until that happens there is no good reason to move. However, even that seems hasty because at least in the current situation, the Giants have control over him until they can properly evaluate his health. Most of you would be crying bloody murder if he signed with the Eagles and it turned out he can actually play. How quickly we forget the whining and moaning over Steve Smith.
This way if it is clear that he won't be the same player or he doesn't return, then he gets released or lowballed in the Spring. Some of you just want the Giants to act immediately out of spite. Remind me to play poker with you the next time you're in town.
And hopefully, you will remember that I came to the board and admitted I was wrong in my opinion of Seubert. I will apologize when I'm wrong.
In this case, I'm making no sweeping assessments of JPP's future. I'm simply addressing the perception that remaining digits grow stronger or that remaining senses get better. I'm not making any guarantees on the player - I'm just debunking the idea that digits gain strength in the absence of other digits.
Bii2 - very good post. It actually differs from mine in that you talk about something I've not even addressed - blood flow/circulation. There are some people who also mistakenly believe the body is somehow "smart" enough to reroute blood flow, too.
It would be nice if you define "talking out of their asses". In my case, I've been involved with rehabilitation, healthcare and prosthetic development for the past 20+ years. I now work for the medical sector of a 3-D printing company that is producing bone implants, prosthetics (especially for children to keep costs down), dentures/invisalign braces, and a host of other medical applications.
I have been with hundreds of people who have lost fingers or toes and hundreds more who have lost limbs. As mentioned above, the idea that the remaining digits increase in strength is not the common reality. Each amputation is different, but when there is a loss of a digit, the structure of the palm or foot is altered. Grip strength or foot control is affected by a certain % no matter how minor the injury or how healthy the person is. I can think of not one single instance where grip strength actually improves. And this doesn't even account situations where digits are lost due to diabetic complications, where the idea that the remaining pieces get stronger is completely laughable.
As fkap pointed out, there is a myth that if somebody goes blind that their remaining senses strengthen. This has actually been proven false, but I bet a lot of people here would swear by it. what happens is that you focus more on the other senses. They aren't any better performing, you simply recognize them more because you aren't spending energy trying to see.
Same concept applies with a loss of digits. Those people heathy enough and with a hand or foot structure relatively unaffected can still function. But it is not a situation where the remaining digits somehow bulk up or grow a different musculatory structure. If they appear to be larger it is because of two factors:
1) The remaining digits often shift position as the hand becomes deformed
2) the scar tissue often takes on a thicker appearance than normal tissue, which often gives the look of the limb being "puffy".
You and thomas make it sound like it is common for the remaining fingers to not only maintain their current function, but actually compensate and take on the strength of the missing digit or digits. That simply isn't supported by the evidence. I consult weekly with medical people who specialize in amputations and loss of limbs/digits. We discuss how to properly build prosthetics for their patients. I have never heard any commentary that would suggest the remaining fingers get stronger. Perception isn't always reality.
FMiC, there's no substitute for experiencing this sort of thing first-hand. I don't care if you've worked around health issues for 100 years; if you haven't experienced it yourself, you have NOT ONE CLUE about it...how it affects people, how one adapts to it, the physical changes that take place (yes, larger, longer, stronger remaining digits).
The statements you aver as truths simply aren't. Certainly there's going to be significant variety of adaptation and development, but your unequivocal statements are worth nothing at all when faced with the real, true article.
RE: Why on Earth would the Giants rescind the tag??
If he doesn't sign, the Giants don't pay him. If he does sign and he can't play, then the Giants can just NFI him and not pay him. He has no leverage and the Giants have little incentive to release him.
The only logical reason to get rid of him would be if they were to extend another player, but until that happens there is no good reason to move. However, even that seems hasty because at least in the current situation, the Giants have control over him until they can properly evaluate his health. Most of you would be crying bloody murder if he signed with the Eagles and it turned out he can actually play. How quickly we forget the whining and moaning over Steve Smith.
This way if it is clear that he won't be the same player or he doesn't return, then he gets released or lowballed in the Spring. Some of you just want the Giants to act immediately out of spite. Remind me to play poker with you the next time you're in town.
How did Smith work out for Philly? And he didn't blow up his hand!
This isn't a game of poker. It would be if JPP were a great asset and the Giants really wanted to keep him.
This isn't impulsiveness, resentment towards JPP, or a lack of patience. It's weighing $15 million in cap space vs. one year of a player whose hand looks like he got it caught in a thresher two months before the season starts.
There's also value in not dealing with the circus that's going to accompany JPP all season over this ridiculous shit.
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger.
Larger???? Perhaps stronger, but how can digits actually grow (once puberty ends)?
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
for not experiencing it first hand (no pun intended). It is called objectivity.
And actually this is objectivity backed by scientific research.
As mentioned above, there are people who have lost limbs who still "feel" them there. They will tell you with every sincerity that they feel their arm or leg still attached.
We know that isn't the case, but they often believe it to be true.
Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true - it just changes one's perspective on it.
Hell, in my interaction with people who have lost limbs, I've seen many go from helplessness and despair to the belief they can do anything simply because they now have a prosthetic in place.
for not experiencing it first hand (no pun intended). It is called objectivity.
And actually this is objectivity backed by scientific research.
As mentioned above, there are people who have lost limbs who still "feel" them there. They will tell you with every sincerity that they feel their arm or leg still attached.
We know that isn't the case, but they often believe it to be true.
Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true - it just changes one's perspective on it.
Hell, in my interaction with people who have lost limbs, I've seen many go from helplessness and despair to the belief they can do anything simply because they now have a prosthetic in place.
You are incorrect in your statements about strength/size/function and I can prove that with my physical appearance. Argue it all you want, but you aren't correct in you statements.
Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
But ask just how arrogant does one have to be to reject science? I don't have a dog in this fight - I have 10 fingers and 10 toes. Heck, one of my aims is to improve the quality of life of those who have lost digits or limbs.
Former NFL head team physician with 17 yrs of sideline experience. Orthopedic Surgeon. Real time inside look at injuries/medical issues. MondayMorningMD @NFpost
for not experiencing it first hand (no pun intended). It is called objectivity.
And actually this is objectivity backed by scientific research.
As mentioned above, there are people who have lost limbs who still "feel" them there. They will tell you with every sincerity that they feel their arm or leg still attached.
We know that isn't the case, but they often believe it to be true.
Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true - it just changes one's perspective on it.
Hell, in my interaction with people who have lost limbs, I've seen many go from helplessness and despair to the belief they can do anything simply because they now have a prosthetic in place.
You are incorrect in your statements about strength/size/function and I can prove that with my physical appearance. Argue it all you want, but you aren't correct in you statements.
I have to respond to the rest of this nonsense. The phenomenon of phantom limbs, including itching, pain, etc. absolutely exists, as I can aver from personal experience.
"Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true." Really? So when I compare the remaining digits on my damaged hand and they are observably larger/stronger than the digits on my undamaged hand, I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part? Fucking unbelievable. Your so-called objectivity is just your refusal to admit that you just really don't know about this at a very deep level.
Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
But ask just how arrogant does one have to be to reject science? I don't have a dog in this fight - I have 10 fingers and 10 toes. Heck, one of my aims is to improve the quality of life of those who have lost digits or limbs.
Don't confuse objectivity with arrogance.
I never reject science and that's just an untrue statement made by a fool. I'll compare what I see and feel and use against all your generalities. I have the PROOF of my claims with me at all times; what is there about this that you don't get? Or arew you calling me a liar? Or perhaps deluded?
I don't doubt what you're saying, but I have two questions for you:
1. Are you an NFL DE?
2. Did your hand get to a point where you could take on an NFL OL the same way you had prior in 2 months?
My statements have been in reaction to those who aver that what I've personally experienced is not and cannot be true. I've made no statement at all concerning JPP specifically or football in general. Frankly, I don't see how you could possibly have come to that conclusion from what I've been writing.
BMac, answer one question. I know that you may have felt the missing limb, after the injury, but was it really there?
Of course not, that's why it's called a phantom. Has anyone here said that, gee< I lost my arm but I don't really believe it's gone? Of course not. Man, reading is fundamental.
BMac, answer one question. I know that you may have felt the missing limb, after the injury, but was it really there?
Of course not, that's why it's called a phantom. Has anyone here said that, gee< I lost my arm but I don't really believe it's gone? Of course not. Man, reading is fundamental.
Just to add, I feel the missing portion (not like the real thing, but it's definite) even now after 50 years.
So when I compare the remaining digits on my damaged hand and they are observably larger/stronger than the digits on my undamaged hand, I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part?
First off, they aren't observably stronger - that is perception. They might be observably larger because when there is a gap or void in the body, the remaining pieces tend to move to fill that spot. when they move, scar tissue is formed which have roughly 2.5 times the density of normal tissue. Thus, there is an appearance of things being bigger (Actually they would be thicker).
From your responses, you make it seem like my experience is bunk and simply because you have lost fingers that you are an expert. I'm not refuting your experiences, I'm refuting your perception. Look, you've even agreed that the idea of there being feelings and phantom limbs exist. why, because it is nerve stimuli transmitting certain things to your brain. Yet the limbs are most definitely not there.
That is my point. I am not saying you think the missing limb is there, but you seem to feel or perceive that it is there. Similar to the idea that you have actually gained increased hearing when you go blind or the instance where you may perceive greater strength in the remaining limbs after such an injury.
His neighbors were tweeting about it while he was lighting off fireworks. Some neighbors in their houses were upset and younger "adults" were setting them off with him.
Not very realistic to think that either Prince or Eli would accept a deal that's heavily front-loaded. It's less long-term security for them when it's the long-term security that players are looking for.
Quote:
Imagine the future cap space we'd save by front-loading a contract for one of those players (assuming they're in our long term plans).
Not very realistic to think that either Prince or Eli would accept a deal that's heavily front-loaded. It's less long-term security for them when it's the long-term security that players are looking for.
????
Players love front loaded deals.
What they could do is instead of giving a big bonus which gets prorated over the live of that contract, move some of that money to the usually low first year of the contract to take more of the hit now
A player would jump at that. Given our unique cap position if we were to rescind with JPP, it would make sense for us as well.
Yes, it's more money now, but for a player like Prince, who's 26, it's going to result in a player looking to re-do his deal later if he continues to develop into a better player. He's not going to be content with his contract if he's undervalued compared to his position as a 28 year old who just made his first all-pro team.
Yes, it's more money now, but for a player like Prince, who's 26, it's going to result in a player looking to re-do his deal later if he continues to develop into a better player. He's not going to be content with his contract if he's undervalued compared to his position as a 28 year old who just made his first all-pro team.
First of all, lets go with the assumption that the total value and the guaranteed amounts are the same.
Front loading the cap hits buy not using signing bonus to its full extent doesn't make it easier to cut a player.
Yes, there will be less dead money if you do want to cut them, but there will also be less to gain as their cap hit will be lower.
players love front loaded. they make their money, and if they're good enough, can hold the team's feet to the fire and get a raise later on. if they're not good enough, they're still affordable to keep, so they don't get ditched.
methinks the opposite is true. the more you make, with talent being the same, the easier it is to cut. you save more money. When have you ever heard of a boss keeping a higher priced employee over a lower priced one?
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger. It's hardly an ideal situation, but there are a few people on here speaking out their asses.
Quote:
the fingers
area junc : 12:14 pm : link : reply
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing.
But what you've written above simply isn't true. Losing digits of any sort doesn't result in greater strength in the remaining digits. This isn't a case of a guy in a wheelchair developing Popeye arms from pushing himself all over the place.
From a medical standpoint, fingers, especially have a really hard time functioning even like they did before in the absence of their partner fingers that have been removed.
Wrong-o.
Quote:
the other 3
area junc : 11:42 am : link : reply
fingers will get much stronger than normal and the middle finger may assume some function of the index
but again, over time. this won't help him a month from now
This isn't usually how hand injuries work. When you lose a finger, it often has several other complications. The palm narrows. The grip strength lessens. The friction points can cause impediments to movement. There is sometimes float that happens when bones start to shift now there is a more open area. There is little to no evidence to show other fingers taking on the burden and becoming stronger.
Have no clue where that idea originated from.
It's area junc. Thanks for the informative post.
Giants need to find right time to cut him loose.
Quote:
get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger.
Larger???? Perhaps stronger, but how can digits actually grow (once puberty ends)?
It's area junc. Thanks for the informative post.
JPP decision making is very questionable.
He has not surrounded himself with people to keep him from making poor decisions or he does not trust them enough to listen to them.
JPP has lost a finger
JPP had skin grafts
JPP fractured his hand.
JPP chose to amputate so he could play sooner (A very big deal)
What does it all mean? We just don't know yet. Here is what I hope.
That he signs the tender immediately so he can go to meetings, learn the new defense and have access to everything a billion dollar franchise has to offer from facilities to services. I hope he gets well and does not give in to despair, he did a very foolish thing, at some point I expect he will get down on himself for what he has lost. Despair and depression is very dangerous. I hope he surrounds himself with people strong enough to tell him no and he respects those people enough to listen. He has the potential to grow from this. A slightly reduced physical JPP but more mature and harder working JPP could be a better player.
Giants need to find right time to cut him loose.
If that's his hand and given the way he has treated the Giants staff, I'd respect his privacy and respectfully rescind the franchise tender. I'd try to find a way to use that money to wrap Eli up for the remainder of his career. Front load , what ever. One thing we know about Eli, he will honor any contract he signs and won't complain about it.
I feel bad for JPP, but it him that is taking the Giants out of Giant for life. Can he come back to his old form? Maybe. Will he be able to come back to his old form this year? Not if that is his hand we have seen.
@ProFootballDoc: My ranking of finger importance in a defensive end:
1) thumb
2) ring
3) pinkie (4th & 5th most important for power grip)
4) middle
5) index
I have been with hundreds of people who have lost fingers or toes and hundreds more who have lost limbs. As mentioned above, the idea that the remaining digits increase in strength is not the common reality. Each amputation is different, but when there is a loss of a digit, the structure of the palm or foot is altered. Grip strength or foot control is affected by a certain % no matter how minor the injury or how healthy the person is. I can think of not one single instance where grip strength actually improves. And this doesn't even account situations where digits are lost due to diabetic complications, where the idea that the remaining pieces get stronger is completely laughable.
As fkap pointed out, there is a myth that if somebody goes blind that their remaining senses strengthen. This has actually been proven false, but I bet a lot of people here would swear by it. what happens is that you focus more on the other senses. They aren't any better performing, you simply recognize them more because you aren't spending energy trying to see.
Same concept applies with a loss of digits. Those people heathy enough and with a hand or foot structure relatively unaffected can still function. But it is not a situation where the remaining digits somehow bulk up or grow a different musculatory structure. If they appear to be larger it is because of two factors:
1) The remaining digits often shift position as the hand becomes deformed
2) the scar tissue often takes on a thicker appearance than normal tissue, which often gives the look of the limb being "puffy".
You and thomas make it sound like it is common for the remaining fingers to not only maintain their current function, but actually compensate and take on the strength of the missing digit or digits. That simply isn't supported by the evidence. I consult weekly with medical people who specialize in amputations and loss of limbs/digits. We discuss how to properly build prosthetics for their patients. I have never heard any commentary that would suggest the remaining fingers get stronger. Perception isn't always reality.
Lets just look at a your hand. and wrist. and arm.
Look or feel for the bones through the wrist area.
Ditto the blood supply network
Ditto the nerves which go from the fingers up into the arm.
Now look at the bottom of your hand ( palm up as you rest your lower arm on a table.
Flex each finger slowly. Note the tendons and muscles move all the way up your arm. each muscle has its own nerve and blood supply. Each bone in your hand has its own cartilage and tendons holding it in place and keeping the blood vessels and nerves from being squeezed or displaced.
Now imagine that complexly coordinated and completely interdependent "ecosystem" losing spacing, health, infection resistance, nerve paths, size, and shape.
Lets imagine nerves transmitting the sensations for tactile sense, sense of pressure, heat, nerves for harnessing muscle, nerves for auto response. Harm some responses...harm all. slow some responses, slow all.
Now lets stop and leave the hand wrist and arm behind. Now lets look up neuroplasticity. Neuroplasticity is the brains nature to shape by habit and learned pathways and once established ....to resist change. Its one reason people with amputations still feel they feel things. But they really don't.
The hand is not a simple organ in simple response on one metric ....like when strength of an unused part grows when it is used more often.
I know we want JPP to be a great player for us. But we cant make up physical reality to conform to our desires. The guy did not break a leg of tear a tendon. He wrecked a delicately balanced and complex interactive part of his body.
Hope you are well
But the guy that lost his finger two months before the season will be fine. OK.
The only logical reason to get rid of him would be if they were to extend another player, but until that happens there is no good reason to move. However, even that seems hasty because at least in the current situation, the Giants have control over him until they can properly evaluate his health. Most of you would be crying bloody murder if he signed with the Eagles and it turned out he can actually play. How quickly we forget the whining and moaning over Steve Smith.
This way if it is clear that he won't be the same player or he doesn't return, then he gets released or lowballed in the Spring. Some of you just want the Giants to act immediately out of spite. Remind me to play poker with you the next time you're in town.
In this case, I'm making no sweeping assessments of JPP's future. I'm simply addressing the perception that remaining digits grow stronger or that remaining senses get better. I'm not making any guarantees on the player - I'm just debunking the idea that digits gain strength in the absence of other digits.
Bii2 - very good post. It actually differs from mine in that you talk about something I've not even addressed - blood flow/circulation. There are some people who also mistakenly believe the body is somehow "smart" enough to reroute blood flow, too.
I have been with hundreds of people who have lost fingers or toes and hundreds more who have lost limbs. As mentioned above, the idea that the remaining digits increase in strength is not the common reality. Each amputation is different, but when there is a loss of a digit, the structure of the palm or foot is altered. Grip strength or foot control is affected by a certain % no matter how minor the injury or how healthy the person is. I can think of not one single instance where grip strength actually improves. And this doesn't even account situations where digits are lost due to diabetic complications, where the idea that the remaining pieces get stronger is completely laughable.
As fkap pointed out, there is a myth that if somebody goes blind that their remaining senses strengthen. This has actually been proven false, but I bet a lot of people here would swear by it. what happens is that you focus more on the other senses. They aren't any better performing, you simply recognize them more because you aren't spending energy trying to see.
Same concept applies with a loss of digits. Those people heathy enough and with a hand or foot structure relatively unaffected can still function. But it is not a situation where the remaining digits somehow bulk up or grow a different musculatory structure. If they appear to be larger it is because of two factors:
1) The remaining digits often shift position as the hand becomes deformed
2) the scar tissue often takes on a thicker appearance than normal tissue, which often gives the look of the limb being "puffy".
You and thomas make it sound like it is common for the remaining fingers to not only maintain their current function, but actually compensate and take on the strength of the missing digit or digits. That simply isn't supported by the evidence. I consult weekly with medical people who specialize in amputations and loss of limbs/digits. We discuss how to properly build prosthetics for their patients. I have never heard any commentary that would suggest the remaining fingers get stronger. Perception isn't always reality.
FMiC, there's no substitute for experiencing this sort of thing first-hand. I don't care if you've worked around health issues for 100 years; if you haven't experienced it yourself, you have NOT ONE CLUE about it...how it affects people, how one adapts to it, the physical changes that take place (yes, larger, longer, stronger remaining digits).
The statements you aver as truths simply aren't. Certainly there's going to be significant variety of adaptation and development, but your unequivocal statements are worth nothing at all when faced with the real, true article.
The only logical reason to get rid of him would be if they were to extend another player, but until that happens there is no good reason to move. However, even that seems hasty because at least in the current situation, the Giants have control over him until they can properly evaluate his health. Most of you would be crying bloody murder if he signed with the Eagles and it turned out he can actually play. How quickly we forget the whining and moaning over Steve Smith.
This way if it is clear that he won't be the same player or he doesn't return, then he gets released or lowballed in the Spring. Some of you just want the Giants to act immediately out of spite. Remind me to play poker with you the next time you're in town.
How did Smith work out for Philly? And he didn't blow up his hand!
This isn't a game of poker. It would be if JPP were a great asset and the Giants really wanted to keep him.
This isn't impulsiveness, resentment towards JPP, or a lack of patience. It's weighing $15 million in cap space vs. one year of a player whose hand looks like he got it caught in a thresher two months before the season starts.
There's also value in not dealing with the circus that's going to accompany JPP all season over this ridiculous shit.
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In comment 12363911 area junc said:
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get bigger + stronger because u use them more. the index function is the body being an adaptogen, adjusting to any situation it finds itself in
there's no guarantee, but the body is a miraculous thing. same phenomenon occurs in plants that lose branches
I'll vouch for this, from personal experience. Remaining digits get larger and considerably stronger.
Larger???? Perhaps stronger, but how can digits actually grow (once puberty ends)?
Are you saying that the very things I use, see, experience every fucking day for 50 years are false, or figments of the imagination? Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
1. Are you an NFL DE?
2. Did your hand get to a point where you could take on an NFL OL the same way you had prior in 2 months?
And actually this is objectivity backed by scientific research.
As mentioned above, there are people who have lost limbs who still "feel" them there. They will tell you with every sincerity that they feel their arm or leg still attached.
We know that isn't the case, but they often believe it to be true.
Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true - it just changes one's perspective on it.
Hell, in my interaction with people who have lost limbs, I've seen many go from helplessness and despair to the belief they can do anything simply because they now have a prosthetic in place.
And actually this is objectivity backed by scientific research.
As mentioned above, there are people who have lost limbs who still "feel" them there. They will tell you with every sincerity that they feel their arm or leg still attached.
We know that isn't the case, but they often believe it to be true.
Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true - it just changes one's perspective on it.
Hell, in my interaction with people who have lost limbs, I've seen many go from helplessness and despair to the belief they can do anything simply because they now have a prosthetic in place.
You are incorrect in your statements about strength/size/function and I can prove that with my physical appearance. Argue it all you want, but you aren't correct in you statements.
But ask just how arrogant does one have to be to reject science? I don't have a dog in this fight - I have 10 fingers and 10 toes. Heck, one of my aims is to improve the quality of life of those who have lost digits or limbs.
Don't confuse objectivity with arrogance.
Not that it affects this particular situation, but here's some additional Bio on Chao.
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for not experiencing it first hand (no pun intended). It is called objectivity.
And actually this is objectivity backed by scientific research.
As mentioned above, there are people who have lost limbs who still "feel" them there. They will tell you with every sincerity that they feel their arm or leg still attached.
We know that isn't the case, but they often believe it to be true.
Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true - it just changes one's perspective on it.
Hell, in my interaction with people who have lost limbs, I've seen many go from helplessness and despair to the belief they can do anything simply because they now have a prosthetic in place.
You are incorrect in your statements about strength/size/function and I can prove that with my physical appearance. Argue it all you want, but you aren't correct in you statements.
I have to respond to the rest of this nonsense. The phenomenon of phantom limbs, including itching, pain, etc. absolutely exists, as I can aver from personal experience.
"Experiencing things first hand doesn't make them true." Really? So when I compare the remaining digits on my damaged hand and they are observably larger/stronger than the digits on my undamaged hand, I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part? Fucking unbelievable. Your so-called objectivity is just your refusal to admit that you just really don't know about this at a very deep level.
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Just how arrogant does one have to be to reject personal experience?
But ask just how arrogant does one have to be to reject science? I don't have a dog in this fight - I have 10 fingers and 10 toes. Heck, one of my aims is to improve the quality of life of those who have lost digits or limbs.
Don't confuse objectivity with arrogance.
I never reject science and that's just an untrue statement made by a fool. I'll compare what I see and feel and use against all your generalities. I have the PROOF of my claims with me at all times; what is there about this that you don't get? Or arew you calling me a liar? Or perhaps deluded?
1. Are you an NFL DE?
2. Did your hand get to a point where you could take on an NFL OL the same way you had prior in 2 months?
My statements have been in reaction to those who aver that what I've personally experienced is not and cannot be true. I've made no statement at all concerning JPP specifically or football in general. Frankly, I don't see how you could possibly have come to that conclusion from what I've been writing.
Of course not, that's why it's called a phantom. Has anyone here said that, gee< I lost my arm but I don't really believe it's gone? Of course not. Man, reading is fundamental.
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BMac, answer one question. I know that you may have felt the missing limb, after the injury, but was it really there?
Of course not, that's why it's called a phantom. Has anyone here said that, gee< I lost my arm but I don't really believe it's gone? Of course not. Man, reading is fundamental.
Just to add, I feel the missing portion (not like the real thing, but it's definite) even now after 50 years.
First off, they aren't observably stronger - that is perception. They might be observably larger because when there is a gap or void in the body, the remaining pieces tend to move to fill that spot. when they move, scar tissue is formed which have roughly 2.5 times the density of normal tissue. Thus, there is an appearance of things being bigger (Actually they would be thicker).
From your responses, you make it seem like my experience is bunk and simply because you have lost fingers that you are an expert. I'm not refuting your experiences, I'm refuting your perception. Look, you've even agreed that the idea of there being feelings and phantom limbs exist. why, because it is nerve stimuli transmitting certain things to your brain. Yet the limbs are most definitely not there.