OK--I'm going to take an optimistic view of the situation at DE. I understand that the last thing we need is another Pierre-Paul thread, but it seems as if there is a lot of hand wringing about the injury of Pierre-Paul and how the team will be able to replace his ability and production.
Reese is smart (despite what some might think) and he prepared for life without Pierre-Paul this season, and after, knowing that he was on the franchise tag and that he might not sign the tender. So the depth is there. The bodies are there.
I understand that Pierre-Paul has a unique ability to both rush the passer and defend the run. But let's not act as though he is the only DE on the roster with talent. Collectively, the DE's on the roster, with the rotation that Spagnuolo will use, can help ease the potential loss of Pierre-Paul.
Selvie is an extremely strong run-stopping DE who showed the ability to generate solid pass rush last season. A well rounded player. Hopefully he will continue to progress. One thing is for sure: Spagnuolo knows him well and knows how get the most out him.
Moore provides the speed rush off the edge on passing downs and hopefully Spagnuolo's scheme will put him in a position to succeed. This is a make or break year for Moore. He knows it and the team knows it. I think this is the year we might see more production from Moore. One thing is for sure: he has an ability to rush the passer.
I am really excited about Wynn and I think he will impress. He gets overlooked a little because he was an undrafted rookie and a relative unknown. But last year he played very well despite coming from a small school and by all accounts, he has looked good this spring. Put it this way: it would not surprise me at all if he was starting by mid-season. He has the makings of a two way DE.
Ayers was the best DE on the team last season before his injury. It seems as if he is healed from the torn pec as well as the ankle/knee injury from the spring. If he can stay healthy, he can be a difference maker at DE. If he is healthy, he might be the starter at one of the DE spots.
Owa Odighizuwa is a two way rookie with tons of potential Raw? Yes. Talented? You bet. One of the best DE prospects in the draft. He is absolutely capable of being part of a rotation as a rookie and his work ethic as well as his intelligence is off the charts.
It does seems as if Jenkins is at the end of his career, but he is flexible enough to anchor and stop the run at DE. His versatility is what makes him valuable.
Stanton is a guy who is way under the radar. It would be silly to count on him for a major contribution, but apparently, he has really impressed in off-season workouts and in the spring so it will be interesting to see his growth. Maybe he can be viable depth.
What I'm trying to say is that the team has a ton of depth at DE and the combination of pass rushers and run stoppers at the position should be enough to survive the Pierre-Paul injury even if it lingers well into the season. Obviously, Pierre-Paul is a special player when healthy, but Reese prepared for the possibility of losing Pierre-Paul. I just doubt he thought it would be to a fireworks accident.
It is way too early to throw this season away due to one injury.
Remember after the 2007 Super Bowl we lost Osi against the Jets. Yet prior to Plexiglass screwing up we had a very strong defense and a very solid team.
We also had Spags as DC which shows he knows how to compensate for a missing star.
I also think this is a tremendous opportunity for the DL, especially under Spags..If you want to hold his Rams years against him, fine, but he managed ALL units with input in all phases, he was NOT SOLELY the DC..There is a big difference, imv..
New Orleans was a mess and their Secondary was crippled paper..Health was not his best friend there, not to mention the chaos..But even if you say he was crap in NO, it's only been ONE year of DC-ing for him since he left in 2009..
Many here are going to be surprised if, a big if, we don't revisit the last two record setting injury years..Oh wait, where's my Kool-Aid? :)
Ayers played well last season rushing the passer too, but he's an injury question mark.
The rest of the notable guys - Selvie, Wynn, and Odi - are more run stuffers at this point than anything. There is potential but, its a lot of what ifs.
JPP was the only real two way DE we had. Thats a huge loss.
I'm pretty interested to see how Wynn progresses as well. He was impressive last season. Hopefully all of this potential materializes into something more. I'm a little tired of getting my hopes crushed like a grape by this team the way they have the past few years. =)
Also does Spags tweek his schemes now that his best pass rusher is a mystery?
Losing JPP sucks, obviously they will not cancel tue season and the Giants must make do, but it is a blow. D stinks anyway and was being rebuilt, but is stinks to lose a foundation player for the rebuild.
Like your optimism though.
Hankins continued improvement. He cracked the top 10 DTs last year, let's see if he can solidify himself as a top 5 guy this year. Collapsing the middle of the pocket is very underrated.
DT run stuffer - whether it's Ellis (the favorite), Jenkins, Kuhn, or Bromley, someone else at DT needs to step up and become a force against the run. If teams continue gaining 4-5 yards/carry against the Giants front 7, it won't matter who they have as pass rushers.
OO - yes, he's a rookie. Yes, he's a 3rd round pick. But Ayers/Selvie are JAGs and many felt that if OO was medically cleared, he was one of the top 43 DE prospects in the draft and ready to contribute Day 1. Well, with JPP's holdout and now missing finger, and several of the other guys recovering from various injuries Odi should see plenty of snaps in camp/preseason to make an impression. Let's hope he takes advantage of the opportunity and forces Spags to get him early playing time.
Hankins continued improvement. He cracked the top 10 DTs last year, let's see if he can solidify himself as a top 5 guy this year. Collapsing the middle of the pocket is very underrated.
DT run stuffer - whether it's Ellis (the favorite), Jenkins, Kuhn, or Bromley, someone else at DT needs to step up and become a force against the run. If teams continue gaining 4-5 yards/carry against the Giants front 7, it won't matter who they have as pass rushers.
OO - yes, he's a rookie. Yes, he's a 3rd round pick. But Ayers/Selvie are JAGs and many felt that if OO was medically cleared, he was one of the top 43 DE prospects in the draft and ready to contribute Day 1. Well, with JPP's holdout and now missing finger, and several of the other guys recovering from various injuries Odi should see plenty of snaps in camp/preseason to make an impression. Let's hope he takes advantage of the opportunity and forces Spags to get him early playing time.
I'd add something else: If Beason is healthy, I think our LB corps is much improved(I know, not saying much) and those 4-5 yard average gains won't be as problematical, imo
Losing JPP sucks, obviously they will not cancel tue season and the Giants must make do, but it is a blow. D stinks anyway and was being rebuilt, but is stinks to lose a foundation player for the rebuild.
Like your optimism though.
Don't think the D is gonna "stink" as bad as you think it will.
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Moore needs to show at least an Osi-level of competency against the run. As much as people like to talk about "3rd down rush specialist", that's a pretty niche role and he needs to be more than that. He's arguably the best pass rusher at DE (excluding JPP) on the team so you don't want him relegated to only 3rd downs because he's a liability against the run.
Hankins continued improvement. He cracked the top 10 DTs last year, let's see if he can solidify himself as a top 5 guy this year. Collapsing the middle of the pocket is very underrated.
DT run stuffer - whether it's Ellis (the favorite), Jenkins, Kuhn, or Bromley, someone else at DT needs to step up and become a force against the run. If teams continue gaining 4-5 yards/carry against the Giants front 7, it won't matter who they have as pass rushers.
OO - yes, he's a rookie. Yes, he's a 3rd round pick. But Ayers/Selvie are JAGs and many felt that if OO was medically cleared, he was one of the top 43 DE prospects in the draft and ready to contribute Day 1. Well, with JPP's holdout and now missing finger, and several of the other guys recovering from various injuries Odi should see plenty of snaps in camp/preseason to make an impression. Let's hope he takes advantage of the opportunity and forces Spags to get him early playing time.
I'd add something else: If Beason is healthy, I think our LB corps is much improved(I know, not saying much) and those 4-5 yard average gains won't be as problematical, imo
Exactly. You beat me to it.
There are run stoppers, and 1 pass rusher with questionable discipline issues.
Let's talk rotation - Philly runs an up tempo offense designed to keep one unit on defense and exploit it's weaknesses -- all the Cowboys and Skins have to do is play no huddle against the Giants to do the same
There is a young safety class to back the line and CBs up that will go through browning pains as well --
The defense will be quite porous and give up a ton of pass plays this year - it's going to be a high scoring season
We have to pray that our offense will be up to the task of taking the team on it's shoulders
Name one DE that was pedestrian who he made look good? His defenses outside of NY were awful.
In NY he had Strahan, Osi and Tuck in their prime and a solid two-punch middle with Cofield and Robbins. Not to mention a young Kiwi and other depth.
Kerry Wynn (???) are you serious? He is not scaring anyone. On a punchless d-line Damontre Moore has yet to force himself to get more playing time.
Ayers is what he is, a one-trick pony veteran, he's Osi a couple years ago only without the knack for the big play.
the best hope is a 3rd round rookie.
and if you people feel Spags just needs bodies and he'll get them in position, what evidence of this do you have? His defenses in STL or NO? certainly not his defense in NY.
Just like Eric's prophecy the offense will take this team as far as it's going to go (barring a miraculous recovery from JPP, a force on the line you need to game plan for changes everything, without him who do other teams fear? Hankins? that's it.)
I'd add something else: If Beason is healthy, I think our LB corps is much improved(I know, not saying much) and those 4-5 yard average gains won't be as problematical, imo
Beason will help, but I still think the key to the LB play is going to be the DL keeping the LBs "clean". I actually think that's part of the reason Jenkins saw a lot of snaps at DE during OTAs, not just because of injuries. If Ellis can do what they brought him here to do (i.e. occupy space/blockers) and Jenkins can hold the POA at DE, JT Thomas is going to be flying all over making tackles. That's where JPP's loss will hurt because there's a big drop off from JPP to Ayers/Selvie/Moore in that department (hopefully OO can step in and help fill the void).
If the OL is strong enough to run the football and score (like 2008 before Plax shot himself), then maybe the opponents will become one dimensional and just pass. IMO, a lot of defenders on the DL have an easier time getting to the QB if they know it's a pass and the opponent abandon the run.
Far fetched hope on my part b/c your position is too strong to really counter.
With the second part, not with the first.....
This defense was going to be a work in progress, even with JPP anchoring one side of the line......with him gone, or possibly playing at a lesser level, this defense has only one defensive lineman, that is a force....and how much of a force will he be, when other teams double team him?
Spags is not a miracle worker.....what he has for personnel, is not enough to overcome the loss of JPP, or a lesser JPP...
The only hope for this defense is that, no one gets hurt, all these new players/starters have career years, and that they can execute Spags' defense....
And, as others have mentioned, the offense has to play lights out, and score a ton of points to take the pressure off the defense....for that to happen, we need a miracle from the OL.....
With the second part, not with the first.....
This defense was going to be a work in progress, even with JPP anchoring one side of the line......with him gone, or possibly playing at a lesser level, this defense has only one defensive lineman, that is a force....and how much of a force will he be, when other teams double team him?
Spags is not a miracle worker.....what he has for personnel, is not enough to overcome the loss of JPP, or a lesser JPP...
The only hope for this defense is that, no one gets hurt, all these new players/starters have career years, and that they can execute Spags' defense....
And, as others have mentioned, the offense has to play lights out, and score a ton of points to take the pressure off the defense....for that to happen, we need a miracle from the OL.....
Ayers was never better than JPP in his life including any point last year. He's got some value as a rotation guy. He can help a team but he's also coming off an injury so he's a mystery right now.
Moore gets manhandled vs the run. He's on skates on runs to him. At this point I have no confidence he can be a full time player. I think he'll be limited to situational pass rusher because his run D is a major fllaw.
Maybe the combination of these 3 and another unknown in Wynn can handle one spot.
The loss of JPP is enormous. He played a lot of snaps and was much better than anything else on the roster.
That leaves us with Odi. We need him to develop into a very good starter soon to make up for the loss of JPP. That's the only way we can do it. Odi is the key. I believe he does have a 2 way game similar to JPP so I'm hoping to see it early in preseason. we need Ori to give us a lot of quality snaps this year. If he doesn't do it Giants DE unit will a weakness on the team. It will cost us.
How could it be better you ask...well there is the Raven's style 4-3 under defense that Spags is now bringing with him. (see link) I never thought JPP was ideally suited for the LEO position (hybrid LB/DE) that Terrel Suggs plays, but I do think DaMontre Moore is perfect a perfect fit. We won't know anything until camp opens, but all this talk of Spags bringing new defensive concepts from Baltimore with him this time around has me thinking he wants to run more 4-3 under (or something like it). July 4th saw the latest curse to the storied Giants franchise, but what if the results are far different than we expect?
What if Moore equals JPP's sack total from last year, playing in Spags' scheme (which I think will have a lot of 4-3 under).
What if the LDE spot is filled by a rotation of strong run stuffing players like Selvie and the rookie Odighizuwa, with Jenkins sliding over on short yardage.
Wynn rotates at both spots.
Admittedly, this is all reliant on Moore and if he can be a difference maker at LEO. If he can, the Giants have the following benefits.
1. They have a new defensive scheme that maximizes a dynamic player,
2. The new scheme would allow them to draft the new type of undersized edge rushers coming out of college. (Big plus here)
3. The Giants will save a ton of money by not paying JPP and drafting a replacement. Will make it easier to keep Prince and pay Eli.
Not try to say there is a silver lining here...but if you look hard enough, and if 2015 is not a total wash on defense...there just might be a positive here.
3.
The Ravens 4-3 Under Defense - ( New Window )
There are run stoppers, and 1 pass rusher with questionable discipline issues.
Let's talk rotation - Philly runs an up tempo offense designed to keep one unit on defense and exploit it's weaknesses -- all the Cowboys and Skins have to do is play no huddle against the Giants to do the same
There is a young safety class to back the line and CBs up that will go through browning pains as well --
The defense will be quite porous and give up a ton of pass plays this year - it's going to be a high scoring season
We have to pray that our offense will be up to the task of taking the team on it's shoulders
Losing JPP for an extended period is cause for trepidation! Realize JPP was a better run-stopper than pass-rusher last year while registering, I believe, 3.5 sacks the 1st 10 games and getting 9 the last 6 games against weaker OL's. DM will always have trouble playing the run due to his lowere body weight. The Safety group includes a #1 rated rookie from the draft and Cooper Taylor who will thoroughly impress providing he stays healthy, the guy is a freakof-nature! What is your concern with a learning curve related to our starting CB's, Amukamar/DRC?
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hasn't taken a huge blow here - there is no DE on the roster with the talent and length of JPP
There are run stoppers, and 1 pass rusher with questionable discipline issues.
Let's talk rotation - Philly runs an up tempo offense designed to keep one unit on defense and exploit it's weaknesses -- all the Cowboys and Skins have to do is play no huddle against the Giants to do the same
There is a young safety class to back the line and CBs up that will go through browning pains as well --
The defense will be quite porous and give up a ton of pass plays this year - it's going to be a high scoring season
We have to pray that our offense will be up to the task of taking the team on it's shoulders
Losing JPP for an extended period is cause for trepidation! Realize JPP was a better run-stopper than pass-rusher last year while registering, I believe, 3.5 sacks the 1st 10 games and getting 9 the last 6 games against weaker OL's. DM will always have trouble playing the run due to his lowere body weight. The Safety group includes a #1 rated rookie from the draft and Cooper Taylor who will thoroughly impress providing he stays healthy, the guy is a freakof-nature! What is your concern with a learning curve related to our starting CB's, Amukamar/DRC?
I'd be shocked if he plays at all this season.
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I'd add something else: If Beason is healthy, I think our LB corps is much improved(I know, not saying much) and those 4-5 yard average gains won't be as problematical, imo
Beason will help, but I still think the key to the LB play is going to be the DL keeping the LBs "clean". I actually think that's part of the reason Jenkins saw a lot of snaps at DE during OTAs, not just because of injuries. If Ellis can do what they brought him here to do (i.e. occupy space/blockers) and Jenkins can hold the POA at DE, JT Thomas is going to be flying all over making tackles. That's where JPP's loss will hurt because there's a big drop off from JPP to Ayers/Selvie/Moore in that department (hopefully OO can step in and help fill the void).
Reasonably put
Are they better with him healthy and ready to play? Yes. but, that isn't happening for weeks into the season. Plus, even without him, their D should be better this year. Hell, it only has to be mediocre to be better than the last couple of years. they have upgraded depth at DE and DT, they have upgraded LB, and they have upgraded S. To what extent, we don't know yet. But, with better personnel and a new DC his loss should be felt a little less.
half his sacks came against pro-bowl caliber or actual pro-bowl tackles (Peters, Smith, and Williams). who else can make that claim?
And sure JPP missed tackles, but he made the 2nd most tackles as a 4-3 DE in the entire NFL.
He led the entire NFL (4-3 DE) in stops (sacks + tackles).
far more than guys like Cameron Wake, Robert Quinn, even Mario Williams and Cameron Jordan.
This will be a situation where until he's gone we won't know what we had.
We need a lot of snaps from Odi.
JPP? in 2010?
He played a whopping 400 snaps and was the 15th pick in the draft.
I'm just going off the top of my head.
But people on here think a 3rd round pick is going to fill a major void?
setting yourselves up for disappointment. It's not a "coughlin doesn't play rookies" thing, it's a DE in general thing. it's just rare IMO for them to step in and make a major contribiution.
Look at the DE's from the first three rounds last year (2014) draft.
Who made an impact/significant contribution?
I'd love for Owa Odi to have an impact but it's just not typical or maybe realistic.
He is a bull rusher who can give OT's problems but I don't list him as a "great" pass rusher. He is slower off thee snap than most and that keeps him from having top notch pass rush numbers.
If we go Ayers-Hankins-Ellis-Selvie on 1st down and rotate in Moore-Hankins-Jenkins-Wynn along with Bromley, OWA and Kuhn we should be able to hold the fort. Much depends upon how quickly and successfully Moore, OWA, Bromley and Wynn develop. All are young and talented.
If Reese had a "magic" wand and could go back to January when the season ended he'd have been better off letting JPP walk and use that money elsewhere. However, life doesn't work that way and who could have guessed fireworks would be our un-doing and JPP's! I mean REALLY!
But if JPP isn't able to go through camp and early season as I predict, my prayer is we save cap money by not paying him for a few games AND than JPP does in fact come back and plays well in a contract year. If he plays well he is likely going to get a contract though I dont' know if it will be us signing him. At least if JPP leaves in 2016 we get a likely comp pick for him.
2016, we likely have OWA starting and I think he'll be solid.
Moore, OWA, Wynn get more snaps with the first team with JPP out. Young guys with upside and they better produce. If they do we won't miss JPP as much.
Aside from finally getting a reasonable break with health, we should be as strong as many other teams vying for the playoffs, imv and O will be the reason why..Breaks my heart to say it, but it's an O league..Hopefully come playoff time, Our D will have come together to make a serious run..
Contrary to many, I think that Pierre-Paul will be back and this injury won't affect him immensely. The amputation was to expedite the healing process. Yes, it is only my guess but it's not like a knee or a shoulder. So before we cancel the season, let's see if and when he comes back. He will be motivated and hungry to prove doubters wrong ad that kick in the pants usually helps Pierre-Paul. A finger to a defensive lineman doesn't exactly hold the same value as a finger to a QB, WR, TE or RB. In most games last season, Pierre-Paul had his fingers taped together anyway.
The key is rotation. Spagnuolo rotates his defensive linemen frequently so having depth is going to help this front 4. Spagnuolo is not a miracle worker, but he will put players in a position to succeed and make plays and he will assist pass rush with blitzes.
My main point of the original post is that he team is prepared for this loss. Sevlie was one of the highest graded run stoppers last season. Ayers provided a solid pass rush. Don't underestimate Wynn. He really flashed last season especially for an undrafted rookie out of a very small program and a full offseason in an NFL system could really help him. Easing Odighizuwa into the rotation slowly will also provide a spark.
So let's all relax with the sky is falling rhetoric.
this team as a whole is not worse than last years team - as of today.
much depends on the players attitudes as of right now.
this has been a good, smart offseason.
2007
Strahan 87% of all defensive snaps
Osi 80% of all defensive snaps
Tuck 69% of all defensive snaps
Robbins: 73% of all defensive snaps
Cofield: 53% of all defensive snaps
Only Jay Alford saw more than 10% of the defensive snaps (Tolly had 17 snaps all year).
that's not frequent rotation that's a stud DL taking most of the snaps, compare to Fewell last year (and obviously injuries played a small part).
JPP: 92%
Kiwi: 52%
Ayers 36%
Jenkins: DE/DT 34%
Moore: 30%
Wynn: 18%
Hankims: 75%
Patterson: 41%
Kuhn 24%
Bromley 11%
So who rotates their DL all the time?
Since entering the NFL, JPP has the 3rd highest "disruptive %" in the NFL.
You get that by playing consistent ball. It's not all about the sacks. He's an elite de.
Since entering the NFL, JPP has the 3rd highest "disruptive %" in the NFL.
You get that by playing consistent ball. It's not all about the sacks. He's an elite de.
Good stat Kevin, where'd you get it. Even more impressive, it's a % stat, and JPP plays a helluva lotta snaps.
There are run stoppers, and 1 pass rusher with questionable discipline issues.
Let's talk rotation - Philly runs an up tempo offense designed to keep one unit on defense and exploit it's weaknesses -- all the Cowboys and Skins have to do is play no huddle against the Giants to do the same
There is a young safety class to back the line and CBs up that will go through browning pains as well --
The defense will be quite porous and give up a ton of pass plays this year - it's going to be a high scoring season
We have to pray that our offense will be up to the task of taking the team on it's shoulders
Sadly, totally agree. Hope Ely's arm doesn't fall off.
browning pains = growing pains :)
However, if things pan out the way I expect, the cupboard is NOT bare but is rather well stocked. This is because we will ROTATE talent in, talent out depending upon down, distance and matchups. I think Spags does this well.
So opening day we may see 1st down:
Wynn-Hankns-Ellis-Selvie and on pass downs:
Moore-Hankins-Ayers-Jenkins with Bromley, OWA and Kuhn getting some reps in during games as well.
As the season progresses, the youngsters will get more and more playing time leaving us with a fresher DL for the stretch run.
I'm hoping the Giants do the "smart" thing and realize JPP is about JPP and his $15 million THIS YEAR. I don't blame JPP for his approach given football is a short career but at the same time I don't want a locker-room distraction guy either.
I think on July 15th you may see a parting of the two. We can take the money and at a minimum use it to sign Eli long term before the season starts. Why not guarantee Eli say $12 million additional in base from JPP's money and use the other $2 million in season if needed. Or something like that.