@Edwerderespn: Source says JPP won't sign franchise tender until confident he can pass physical to prevent Giants from putting on NFI, having full control
If he doesn't sign the tender he doesn't get paid. If he doesn't sign the tender and the Giants don't rescind it he can't play anywhere else...this whole thing is being handled so strangely by the JPP camp.
be getting poor advice. He doesn't have control here. The team pretty much holds all the cards, especially now that JPP only has one hand to hold anything with.
means he will miss all of camp/preseason classroom time. He's going to be a non-factor this year.
That's why you remove the tag, say thanks but no thanks and bank the cap for next year (which is likely to be a complete rebuild year if this year goes south) or use it to resign Prince or Eli
and I still say you don't just walk away from an asset, but his behavior throughout this has been bizarre. Those asinine comments from an agent or family member about not having an employer and that he had finished his commitment to the Giants were idiotic.
RE: What if the season starts and he can't pass the physical? Â
where he can pass a physical, yet because the Giants won't deem him ready to play they'll keep him on the NFI list. Thing is even if thats the case he doesn't get paid a nickel either way. Boy sometimes they guys get bizarre shitty advice.
I've gone from saying keep him around to wanting him gone and let somebody else deal with him. I can't see him making meaningful contributions in 2015, so withdrawing the tender seems to be the most logical move.
But, we don't have to do it today or tomorrow. Taking our time is prudent.
of $15M of locked up cap space. That is what they control.
The rest of this is academic and conjecture.
Bet with knowns, not the unknowns.
I know I can manage the team better with $15M in cap space.
I know I can find a guy or two using some of that cap space.
I know I can roll the cap space forward as well.
I DO NOT know when or if JPP will sign.
I DO NOT know what kind of JPP will be coming back to us.
I kind of know that with an injury such as this one, it is going to be hard has hell for JPP to be the player he was in the near term.
I know I have coaches and everyone kinds of playing on a one year term and should set them up as best you can for this year.
He and his camp (of idiots) are being unreasonable, and he's finished being an impact player, despite the feelings of some of BBI's finest medical minds.
space rolls over to next year, could we pull the tag from JPP and sign Eli and Prince to extensions that would overload their salary in the first year to reduce the cap hit in future years? Would that be possible or am i misunderstanding how the cap works?
$14 million guaranteed and he's not signing despite his current, self inflicted state. He could literally have one setback in healing and never get a contract again.
He could just sign for $14 million and not play a down this year yet he just sits with nothing?
JPP's camp thinks there is a good chance he won't be ready for Week 1 but they think he will be ready before Week 7.
So they want to prevent missing all six full pay checks if he is on the NFI.
Problem is, but not showing up in camp, he probably won't play much in any of those games because he doesn't know the defense and he won't be in football shape. Probably doesn't care...just wants to get paid.
Raanan's response JPP's agent wants no part of NFI Â
space rolls over to next year, could we pull the tag from JPP and sign Eli and Prince to extensions that would overload their salary in the first year to reduce the cap hit in future years? Would that be possible or am i misunderstanding how the cap works?
The player and agent have to want their deals to work that way.
In the end teams are going to say lack of production is from these factors ... missed time from the injury (behind in the system and the injury. Then the concerns about maturity, motivation are still prevalent. He may get the full monies but he is cutting himself short in the long run in my opinion....
What happens if the season starts before he signs? Â
JPP's camp thinks there is a good chance he won't be ready for Week 1 but they think he will be ready before Week 7.
So they want to prevent missing all six full pay checks if he is on the NFI.
Problem is, but not showing up in camp, he probably won't play much in any of those games because he doesn't know the defense and he won't be in football shape. Probably doesn't care...just wants to get paid.
I'm still not getting it....won't he miss all six game checks if he waits until Week 7 to sign?
The contract still gets pro-rated, right? He's not going to get $15 mil for weeks 7 through 16.
Eric, touched on it. Avoiding NFI just means he thinks he'll be back sometime between weeks 1-6 and doesn't want to avoid missing those couple paychecks.
2. Couldn't the Giants realistically fail him on any physical until they thought he was ready, thus not allowing him to sign his tender, thus still withholding pay? Its a dirty game, something they probably wouldn't do, but certainly could happen unless I'm missing something.
he's not going to be ready to contribute for who knows how long, missing all that time learning the defense. I'm done, get the team doctors to have a real look at him and unless there's a strong possibility of him having a damned fast recovery rescind the tender and use the money elsewhere. Enough of this nonsense.
what if his injuries prevent him from being effective until the end of the season when we're out of contention? He could effectively do what he did last season, pad his stats and then sign a fat contract elsewhere.
If this had happened prior to free agency I think that the outcome might have been different. At this point where else could we spend the $15 million (other than locking up our own guys)?
if JPPs camp doubts he'll be ready opening day, but thinks he'll be physically ready before week 7, then this makes sense.
The flip side is that if he signs the tender now and gets his a$$ to camp that he'll likely be mentally ready before week 7 too so if the Giants Drs then evaluate him before final cut down day and determine he's 2-3 weeks away, the Giants would likely carry him as an inactive for the first couple weeks and activate him ASAP, since a player of his caliber is worth that gamble (and in this scenario he'd get paid for all 16 games).
The problem is, for whatever reason, JPP and his agent don't seem to trust the Giants front office. They seem convinced that the second JPP signs the tender the Giants will place him on the NFI list which could lead to JPP missing 1/2 the season (i.e. $7.5M).
There's got to be some sort of happy medium here:
1. either don't sign the tender and still attend camp & the meetings
2. sign the tender with some sort of guarantee included that he won't be placed on the NFI list
The Giants are among the most loyal and classy organizations, but JPP has treated them like the enemy.
“Cut your losses and move on. Absolutely,” one NFL source said Thursday. “And for him not to allow the Giants to examine him, that would have been it for me. That’s bulls---. Gone. Obviously, they are hiding something. If I were John Mara, I would pull the franchise tender and he’s gone. Next.”
means the TEAM'S physical, which I am supposing it does, then they can sort of string him along, work out a nominal '15 contract with conditions that lock him into the Giants through '16 if he proves it on the field in '15, then set a 'big contract' if he plays closer to '11 than '13 and '14 for 2017 until...
He said he wants to be a Giant; he will need to do a lot on the field and at the negotiating table to prove it.In the meantime the team drafts/signs DEs the next 2 off-seasons.
Ok, Jason, now please pick your nose -- right nostril, please. Now, using your right hand, indicate that your team is number 1, or that your team has made a 1st down.
FAIL
His post-football, career-dream of being a prostate examiner are probably over as well.
if he gets released, no one is going to touch him this year for anything close to what he will make with the tender....NFI or not.
He's damaged good, in the fullest sense of the phrase.
In straight up guaranteed money, no. But Dallas (and probably half a dozen other teams) would absolutely give him a deal loaded with incentives similar to the Greg Hardy deal -> the more games he plays in the more he makes.
If he signs the tender and is still on the NFI by week one, he MUST sit out the first six weeks (and not get paid for those six games).
If he signs the tender after the third game, he gets $900,000 per week for each game he didn't miss.
Eric - gotcha. So there is a minimum sit out time....and it could be longer.
Yes, the NFI list is similar to PUP. If you're on it once the season starts, you automatically miss the first 6 games. Then you can start practicing, but can be held out for up to another 3 games after that.
Even if he plays he isnt going to contribute to justify the cost. Doesnt know the playbook, has missed everything, isnt going to be in shape. Cut him, save the money and move on.
Selfish, lazy and incredibly stupid.
It's getting to the point where dealing with this idiot Â
he choose to amputate his finger to speed up the healing process. So that would put him in a position to be ready for a physical sooner. If he passes that physical, the Giants cannot put him on NFI and he would start getting paid, else he and the union would sue the Giants. Ultimately JPP made a life altering decision, without probably the best doctors (you go to NY or Boston), in order to force the Giants to pay him. But, he (his agent) didn't want the Giants doctors/team to see how bad he really was because they didn't want them to pull the franchise tender.
who are looking more and more like fools. Rescind the damn franchise tag already and extend Prince and Eli with the saved $. This is getting ridiculous.
JPP's one of those guys who's gonna be broke by 40 anyway. Â
As pointed out above, if he signs the tender now, and the Giants see he's not the same player. They can release him. The tender is not guaranteed.
Quoting one of my favorite movies: "It's a huge shit-sandwich and we're all gonna have to take a bite."
I agree. I don't really hold anything against JPP for how he and his agent are handling this. His career hangs in the balance...now is not the time for him to be worried about being a team guy. Whether their strategy is actually in his best interest is a different story.
Whatever the case JPP is in a very bad spot, and it reminds me of a quote from the same movie from the beloved Animal Mother: "Better you than me."
the Giants have nothing to gain by rescinding the tender now Â
If JPP wants to keep them out of all decisions, then they should wait until right before the season starts and then rescind it if he's still not ready. Make it as hard as possible for him to sign on somewhere else and contribute.
Cap savings are the same if they pull the trigger now or wait 2 months.
If we traded for J.J. Watt on the Monday before Week 1, would we say "well, he doesn't know the playbook so he won't be able to contribute for several weeks"?
Will he be hurt, will his missing digit hurt him immensely, will he be out of shape? All legitimate questions. But the guy is a DE. If he is healthy, and that is a very big if, I'm really not worried about his knowledge of the playbook. He'll contribute if healthy and if in shape, if he shows up on September 12th. He can learn it as he goes.
Even if he passes the physical, as Eric has said, he will be shell of Â
If JPP wants to keep them out of all decisions, then they should wait until right before the season starts and then rescind it if he's still not ready. Make it as hard as possible for him to sign on somewhere else and contribute.
Cap savings are the same if they pull the trigger now or wait 2 months.
Why would we want to make it hard for him to sign somewhere else? I would pack his bags for him if Dallas or Philly came calling.
He's a minus, not a plus.
Eric's comments that he won't be a contributer in 2015 Â
are absolutely right. I've been saying this for days. Cut him and let Dallas have the disease. Everyone wanting to keep him is so afraid he'll end up in Dallas or Philadelphia. Good. Let them have him and the moronic absence of brains occupying his head!
Those saying you don't cut an asset....well your right but you are overlooking the fact that JPP has gone from asset to ass! There is no way his play will be significantly better than anyone we have on the team already by the end of the year to be worth the 14 million.
The Giants holding on to him is more about class then expectations of his performance and this is one time I disagree with them. TC must be pissed!
If we traded for J.J. Watt on the Monday before Week 1, would we say "well, he doesn't know the playbook so he won't be able to contribute for several weeks"?
Will he be hurt, will his missing digit hurt him immensely, will he be out of shape? All legitimate questions. But the guy is a DE. If he is healthy, and that is a very big if, I'm really not worried about his knowledge of the playbook. He'll contribute if healthy and if in shape, if he shows up on September 12th. He can learn it as he goes.
Strahan said it took him a month to learn the defense after he held out. And Strahan is a little bit smarter than JPP.
If we traded for J.J. Watt on the Monday before Week 1, would we say "well, he doesn't know the playbook so he won't be able to contribute for several weeks"?
Will he be hurt, will his missing digit hurt him immensely, will he be out of shape? All legitimate questions. But the guy is a DE. If he is healthy, and that is a very big if, I'm really not worried about his knowledge of the playbook. He'll contribute if healthy and if in shape, if he shows up on September 12th. He can learn it as he goes.
Strahan said it took him a month to learn the defense after he held out. And Strahan is a little bit smarter than JPP.
A LOT smarter
Giants2012....a weekly rebate as I understand it. Â
A: Not all of it, but I have fed him some of the stuff as we’ve gone and progressed through and he was here and I met with him probably four or five times, maybe even six or seven times. We kind of implemented some of the stuff and how it is going to be introduced when we get to training camp. I thought he had a very good grasp of it when he left and when he gets here we’ll start and that is where we’ll begin.
Q: Do you get the sense that he is going to come in with the right frame of mind?
A: All of my contact with JPP has been positive. It is what it is; I don’t get involved with the business side of it. He seems to be in a very good place mentally and working out and keeping in very good shape. His weight was in a good place and so we’ll see when we begin.
Q: How hard is this defense to pick up? Is that really the part that he is missing now?
A: Yeah, there are wrinkles that you have got to be here to pick up and he has got to take it from the classroom to the field, but those things, we will begin in training camp and we will make it work.
Q: Is there still ample time with training camp in your mind?
A: Yes, if he comes in with the right frame of mind and in good shape, he will be ready to go.
14 tackles and 1 sack in that time frame. As a 35 year old.
It's not like he wasn't contributing on the field. My argument is simply that IF (A HUGE IF) JPP was healthy and in shape, even if he doesn't know the playbook well, he is still a huge contributor while he learns the playbook. He's not a WR who needs to know his routes. A DE's job is much less mentally taxing, in terms of learning the playbook, even given the fact that JPP is a moron.
those saying it doesn't hurt the Giants to drop him 2 months down the road may be correct and if that's their game I'm fine with it. But if they really think they need him I just don't understand how they could be comfortable with the fact that there are two very big unknowns here.
1. When will he be ready to play again?
2. At what level will he be able to play?
They will have to go through camp without knowing this. How in the world can they be comfortable with that?
As far as being classy I say hey, if JPP wants to be all business about this and screw the Giants thinking only about the money, than the Giants should be thinking the same way and move on!
if he gets released, no one is going to touch him this year for anything close to what he will make with the tender....NFI or not.
He's damaged good, in the fullest sense of the phrase.
In straight up guaranteed money, no. But Dallas (and probably half a dozen other teams) would absolutely give him a deal loaded with incentives similar to the Greg Hardy deal -> the more games he plays in the more he makes.
I think it's more than just showing up and being on the field....it's playing effectively.
Even if he does indeed miss six games the Giants aren't required to withhold his salary. They can negotiate to pay all or part of his contract in return for his participation in offseason activities such as meetings and walk throughs so Spags defense won't be a mystery.
Eugene Parker is failing his client badly. It's his job to make JPP see reason and guide him through the pitfalls of a career crisis.
It really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Would any of you risk losing 3 mil?????
That said I am strongly moving to the side of pulling the tender and saving the money. Dallas last year was supposed to have a laughing stock of a defense and they for all intents and purpose should have beaten Green Bay to make the NFC Championship game. Name me some of the guys that were playing on their defense down the stretch.
to keep this fool. Since this incident happened, I stated the tender should have been immediately withdrawn. Screw him. The defense sucked with him and without him. Why have him come back for a cool $15 million, when he is most likely leaving after this year? Cut ties, move forward. This is a team headed for a 6-8 win season anyways.
I read the Giants were willing to promise not to put him on the NFI if he signed the tender and came to camp so they could help him and he could learn the defense.
JPP's camp thinks there is a good chance he won't be ready for Week 1 but they think he will be ready before Week 7.
So they want to prevent missing all six full pay checks if he is on the NFI.
Problem is, but not showing up in camp, he probably won't play much in any of those games because he doesn't know the defense and he won't be in football shape. Probably doesn't care...just wants to get paid.
That's the business side of it. But what about not letting the Giants representatives come and see how he is doing? At least see check all options before making a decision, such as asking the opinion of some of the best doctors in the NY area. That part annoys me. We are a classy organization, and we just wanted to make sure he was alright. I don't understand why he wouldn't let our people see him.
So if JPP eventually signs the tender but after several games into the season, then does this count as a year under the franchise tag? I understand that franchising a player more than two years results in a much higher cost, based upon the top 5 salaries at any position and not just his position. IS that correct?
You have to consider ALL of the factors, not just one at a time. Â
No training camp
No strength training
Part of hand missing
Missing all the teaching that is critical to learn in camp
How many times do healthy people that miss camp, show up and immediately get injured (hamstring, quad, etc.)? There's a good chance he'll have additional issues showing up late with no camp.
He's not going to help this team this year anymore than current DEs on the team will and he will tie up 15 million dollars!
Was guaranteed once he signed it. Maybe I'm mistaken, though. In any event, if we don't think he's going to be a force this year, and he's shown no trust in the organization, cut him. As others have said, that is money we can use next year to improve our team. For once, we won't be so cap strapped.
Besides, we refuse to draft anyone with a hint of an off the field problem. This guy just decided that playing with dangerous fireworks was more important to him than securing his safety. I have no problem letting him go, where you can guarantee he won't receive anywhere near franchise tender money this season.
--As long as he doesn't sign, he doesn't get paid. The Giants surely believe that his value goes down if he is not present in training camp
--so if he's not signed when training camp starts, both sides get squeezed
--other teams might not place importance on being on training camp. Other teams might be willing to give him a full multi-year deal right now. But the Giants probably don't, or don't want to give him a big enough deal to satisfy him
--the gating item to a decision is the Giants will certainly need to examine him to actually keep the tag. At that point they might want to withdraw the tender or possibly might be willing to negotiate a different deal with JPP
--it makes sense for JPP to delay that as long as possible until the games start happening. He probably doesn't lose anything by waiting.
--once the season starts he starts losing money, so he wants things resolved by then
--so the Giants can choose either a JPP without a full training camp or, if it gets too close to Game 1, maybe a negotiated deal
Was guaranteed once he signed it. Maybe I'm mistaken, though. In any event, if we don't think he's going to be a force this year, and he's shown no trust in the organization, cut him. As others have said, that is money we can use next year to improve our team. For once, we won't be so cap strapped.
Besides, we refuse to draft anyone with a hint of an off the field problem. This guy just decided that playing with dangerous fireworks was more important to him than securing his safety. I have no problem letting him go, where you can guarantee he won't receive anywhere near franchise tender money this season.
It's not guaranteed if you are injured via a non-football injury.
RE: RE: the Giants have nothing to gain by rescinding the tender now Â
If JPP wants to keep them out of all decisions, then they should wait until right before the season starts and then rescind it if he's still not ready. Make it as hard as possible for him to sign on somewhere else and contribute.
Cap savings are the same if they pull the trigger now or wait 2 months.
Why would we want to make it hard for him to sign somewhere else? I would pack his bags for him if Dallas or Philly came calling.
He's a minus, not a plus.
Please, I know you hate JPP and that he's not close to what we thought he'd become after 2011, but his 2014 level of play was easily top 5-10 among DEs. And he doesn't even have to play at that level to help a team.
If we traded for J.J. Watt on the Monday before Week 1, would we say "well, he doesn't know the playbook so he won't be able to contribute for several weeks"?
Will he be hurt, will his missing digit hurt him immensely, will he be out of shape? All legitimate questions. But the guy is a DE. If he is healthy, and that is a very big if, I'm really not worried about his knowledge of the playbook. He'll contribute if healthy and if in shape, if he shows up on September 12th. He can learn it as he goes.
Strahan said it took him a month to learn the defense after he held out. And Strahan is a little bit smarter than JPP.
Not only that, but comparing JPP to Watt is an extreme case of apples to oranges. In that hypothetical, Watt would be showing up before Week 1 ready to play. Even if it took him a few weeks to learn the playbook, as with Strahan, he would still physically be able to make plays. JPP will most likely not be anywhere near physically ready to practice, let alone play. Couple that with no time in the film room, no meetings, no grasp of the playbook, etc. and he would be a big non-factor, as Eric suggested.
The Giants need to sever ties now. I have said before, when it comes to injuries, the Giants are one of the most upstanding and generous organizations in the league in terms of treatment provided, loyalty to players, injury settlements, concern for a player's long term health, etc. JPP is truly testing that reputation and so far the Giants have not re-acted for some strange reason. they need to not just take back the long term offer, but make it quite clear what their expectations are if JPP is to collect anywhere near the $14M from that tag. otherwise, they should pull it and be done.
there was a report that said the Giants would not place him on NFI and guarantee the full tender if he would report to camp to get classroom time in. Am I wrong in remembering Kim Jones in reporting something like this?
This way he can learn the system and when healthy be able to contribute in as meaningful a way as he can with his new hand.
are giving this proud franchise a black eye. Making them look foolish. As much as the Giants are better defense with JPP on the field, they should tell this clown to piss off.
JPP just accelerated the future for this team. Players like
Hankins, Kennard, Collins, Prince, OBJ, Pugh, Richburg and Flowers are the future here and this is where the money needs to be spent. Not on some oft injured 9 finger loser.
--As long as he doesn't sign, he doesn't get paid. The Giants surely believe that his value goes down if he is not present in training camp
--so if he's not signed when training camp starts, both sides get squeezed
--other teams might not place importance on being on training camp. Other teams might be willing to give him a full multi-year deal right now. But the Giants probably don't, or don't want to give him a big enough deal to satisfy him
--the gating item to a decision is the Giants will certainly need to examine him to actually keep the tag. At that point they might want to withdraw the tender or possibly might be willing to negotiate a different deal with JPP
--it makes sense for JPP to delay that as long as possible until the games start happening. He probably doesn't lose anything by waiting.
--once the season starts he starts losing money, so he wants things resolved by then
--so the Giants can choose either a JPP without a full training camp or, if it gets too close to Game 1, maybe a negotiated deal
The Giants only have until Thursday to withdraw the tag. They'd still have to pay if JJP signs late in the season and passes a medical but isn't able to play at an adequate level, and JPP doesn't need to present himself to that point I don't think.
I don't really understand why the Giants don't just pull the tag. There's clearly mistrust from JPP's camp or they're just hiding the extent of the injury eitherway I doubt there's much chance of coming to a long term arrangement.
Cut him, and if he bounces back elsewhere then people will just have to accept that. The unnamed NFL GM in one of the articles is right once he and his agent refused any access to the team it became too big a risk to take.
I don't see how he becomes an impact player for more than a handful of games if that. And you don't pay $15M for that. And you better believe there will be enormous fights over JPP's camp saying he's ready to play and the Giants camp saying he is not to avoid paying money when he can't play. It's not worth all the aggravation.
And if you're lucky you may even get a 3rd round comp pick back to help you for next year as well.
I also believe that it is next year, not this year where this team will really take off so if he isn't in the plans after this year just get rid of this mess now. Mara and Tisch are not dumb. They know this and they will not blame this on Coughlin or Reese as the injury excuse is valid and already there. Personally I think the coaches are playing with house money this year (their best OL and DL are gone before training camp!)
That kind of cap space could have netted them McCourtey and a top nickel CB this year like Skrine. So the $15M is very valuable if rolled over.
from "anonymous sources in other organizations" that we should cut him stat. Meanwhile when we do that these ass clowns will be the first one knocking on his doorstep looking to sign him. In fact they are probably strategically planting these comments in the media for just that reason.
Even if he does indeed miss six games the Giants aren't required to withhold his salary. They can negotiate to pay all or part of his contract in return for his participation in offseason activities such as meetings and walk throughs so Spags defense won't be a mystery.
Eugene Parker is failing his client badly. It's his job to make JPP see reason and guide him through the pitfalls of a career crisis.
Torrag at this point his agent is trying to get the last pennies he'll see from the JPP the football player.....His best interest is not a factor even if in reality they are tied at the hip .... he knows his career is 3 more years max...and this is the yr he gets the most he can....
I thought I read or heard somewhere he could be charged with a crime because the fireworks are illegal and if, that is the case, that he would probably be suspended.
If that is the case he might miss the first 4 games or so (assuming just a fine and no jail on FL) anyhow due to NFL suspention, right?
say he signs his tender when he feels he will pass a physical, then Giants administer the physical and he fails; or he signs and the Giants suspend him without pay for conduct detrimental to the team, or a litany of other bad things that can happen when you are not under an NFL contract. I'm starting to not understand the irrational fear that if the Giants let him go we're screwed because he's going to the Cowboys or Eagles. Even if he does, how many times have the Giants let someone walk due to injury that they are ever the same player again? And where is the Cowboys cap space coming from? If he does go to one of those other teams the exact same reasons why you fear your not getting 100% JPP this year will be relevant with whatever new team he signs with.
It sucks to say, but on July 4th the Giants team got worse for the 2015-16 season under any conceivable outcome. Why compound that and hurt the further future more when you could better use that 15 mil earmarked for JPP to their cap space next year by rolling it over. I agree, nothing needs to be done this very second, but pulling the tender right before the season started seems like the most prudent move for the GIants future.
between the condition of his hand and arm, his questionable work ethic to begin with, his absence from all the off season programs, and lack of knowledge of the playbook, his impact in the beginning of the season would be zero. Now, his impact into the season seems like it will be significantly less. All things considered, it is not fair to say we need him because there is no chance we get an impactful player like his one great season or even his last season. He is just a giant question mark for several reasons. I say F-him and re-allocate that money for at least one long term deal for someone else now and save us a potential headache.
the gating item to a decision is the Giants will certainly need to examine him to actually keep the tag. At that point they might want to withdraw the tender or possibly might be willing to negotiate a different deal with JPP...
Once he signs that tag after July 15th, there are only two options......he gets his franchise money based on when the Giants activate him....if they activate him, let's say, after week four, he gets paid for the remaining 12 games, even if he can't play at a high level.....once they take him off NFI, that money is guaranteed for the rest of the year.....
To my understanding, the only way they can negotiate a contract, after July 15th, is to rescind the tag, and that makes him, an UFA, and he doesn't have to sign with the Giants, especially if someone comes along with a better offer....
While the Giants, at the moment have the upper hand, what happens if, he signs the tag, and the Giants say he can't pass a physical, and put him on NFI, but JPP's camp says he can pass it? Exactly, how do you determine if the hand is ok? It may be healed, but what if the grip strength is not 100%? Who determines what level of grip strength/manual dexterity you have to have, to pass a physical? What % of state of health of that hand, rules whether he passes a physical? Can he pass the physical for the hand, but the Giants think it's not good enough, and still not pay him? This is only going to get worse....
the gating item to a decision is the Giants will certainly need to examine him to actually keep the tag. At that point they might want to withdraw the tender or possibly might be willing to negotiate a different deal with JPP...
Once he signs that tag after July 15th, there are only two options......he gets his franchise money based on when the Giants activate him....if they activate him, let's say, after week four, he gets paid for the remaining 12 games, even if he can't play at a high level.....once they take him off NFI, that money is guaranteed for the rest of the year.....
To my understanding, the only way they can negotiate a contract, after July 15th, is to rescind the tag, and that makes him, an UFA, and he doesn't have to sign with the Giants, especially if someone comes along with a better offer....
While the Giants, at the moment have the upper hand, what happens if, he signs the tag, and the Giants say he can't pass a physical, and put him on NFI, but JPP's camp says he can pass it? Exactly, how do you determine if the hand is ok? It may be healed, but what if the grip strength is not 100%? Who determines what level of grip strength/manual dexterity you have to have, to pass a physical? What % of state of health of that hand, rules whether he passes a physical? Can he pass the physical for the hand, but the Giants think it's not good enough, and still not pay him? This is only going to get worse....
McKeon said police are not certain the accident happened in Coral Springs, where Pierre-Paul was believed to have been earlier in the night. But if Pierre-Paul had the fireworks there, he still could face charges. The Coral Springs police have been in contact with authorities from surrounding cities.
I have not heard anything since if some other city was going to press charges since Coral Springs decided it happened outside of their juristiction....
Police believe fireworks might have been discharged at a Coral Springs home belonging to a relative of Pierre-Paul. McKeon said police received a complaint from a resident who lives down the street from the relative's home. They are looking into whether the complaint and the incident are related.
It could have been brushed under the rug, but once someone made a complaint, now there has to be an investigation.....whether it leads anywhere, remains to be seen....
Until signed, Pierre-Paul will not be able to attend team meetings in training camp to learn new Defensive Coordinator Steve Spagnuolo’s defense.
We had reports that JPP was allowed to come in during the spring, meet with the coaches, and discuss and learn the new defense.
Why would his ability to do that have changed?
*** I am not arguing that he has the desire to do that, just seeking to understand whether he will be restricted from doing that if the Giants wanted to let him.
If JPP wants to keep them out of all decisions, then they should wait until right before the season starts and then rescind it if he's still not ready. Make it as hard as possible for him to sign on somewhere else and contribute.
Cap savings are the same if they pull the trigger now or wait 2 months.
Why would we want to make it hard for him to sign somewhere else? I would pack his bags for him if Dallas or Philly came calling.
He's a minus, not a plus.
Please, I know you hate JPP and that he's not close to what we thought he'd become after 2011, but his 2014 level of play was easily top 5-10 among DEs. And he doesn't even have to play at that level to help a team.
I don't hate JPP. I've been objective this whole time. If it sounds like I hate him it's because the situation I'm objectively describing is a complete disaster.
Honestly, how can pay a guy 14 million who just got his finger chopped off? He's an unknown commodity now. The Giants are screwed. Even if they cut him - would any team sign him for much money? He's going to have to show the NFL he can still play.
so sorry in advance as I'm not as good with the contracts side of things as some here.
But are the only options right now to either sign the tender or take the offer off the table? If JPP thinks he will be back before week 7 and is concerned about losing out on a few weeks of pay - since the Giants apparently want him here this year, can they offer a different deal, say for 10 million guaranteed this year?
That way, instead of signing the tender in week 4 (for example, assuming he won't pass a physical until at least week 3) and missing all of camp, etc. he can sign it now and make a similar amount of money as he would have this year anyway.
As usual, I agree with Go Terps (we must have been separated at birth) Â
.every time I think we have drafted an all time player that player ends up peaking in his first 1-2-3 years and then falls apart. Fuck man...JPP was a special player and really looked to be turning things around after last season's performance...now this...WTF...
We have been fortunate with the 4 titles but this franchise has next to no longevity with any of their star players.
Teams like the Steelers are so fucking fortunate in that their star players play for 10-15 years more often than not...
This sucks. JPP should have had a nice long career here with the Giants. The 2013 seasons should have been a speed bump in a long storied career here.
Could the Giants be delaying withdrawing the tender Â
partly because of how it could effect other negotiations (i.e. Eli and Prince)? I would imagine any ongoing negotiations of that sort have slowed to a crawl now that potentially another $15MM in cap space is on the table, so it would be in the Giants' interest to keep open the appearance that that money may still be allocated to JPP, even if it is not their intention to do so in the end.
RE: I am pretty much swinging like a pendulum between Â
feeling really bad for the guy and thinking his is a total dick.
Yeah, but usually my opinion is that it's very difficult to tell what ideas are the player's and what are his agent's.
The agents are incentivized to make every suggestion that will minimize the money lost. In general, they are much more innately skilled and/or practiced in the art of disseminating information and making these suggestions in a biased or outright manipulative way than their clients are at scrutinizing them -- that's why they're agents.
It basically creates a cap hold, right? So if the Giants pull it today, they'll have that cap space to work with heading into the season? I'm just curious about how that works. I mainly have Evan Mathis in mind. If they're going to lose JPP for whatever reason, they might as well get another good player on the roster if they can. I'd frontload Mathis if possible.
“I don’t know. I still look at him as LeBron James. He’s one of the greatest basketball players of all time,’’ said Beckham, who took to heart LeBron’s advice about keeping his priorities straight.
“As far as business goes, he was just saying you have to handle what you are here to do, and that is play football. Everything else will come with it. If you are not handling what you need to be doing, then it is going to make everything else a lot harder. First and foremost, handle your business.’’
I'm not talking about the mistake he made with the fireworks. I'm talking about the potential mistakes he appears to be making with his approach to his recovery and next contract.
If he wants to get paid, he should be preparing to have the best season he possibly can have. That will give him the best chance to get him a large, long-term contract.
His choice to not sign the tender, stay home and away from the team, and then show up and play immediately after passing a physical might pay him more this year, but if his performance is suspect his future contract will suffer.
I really don't think his advisors are being smart about all this, and it appears that OBJ and LJ would agree.
The Giants only have until Thursday to withdraw the tag. They'd still have to pay if JJP signs late in the season and passes a medical but isn't able to play at an adequate level, and JPP doesn't need to present himself to that point I don't think.
I don't really understand why the Giants don't just pull the tag. There's clearly mistrust from JPP's camp or they're just hiding the extent of the injury eitherway I doubt there's much chance of coming to a long term arrangement.
Cut him, and if he bounces back elsewhere then people will just have to accept that. The unnamed NFL GM in one of the articles is right once he and his agent refused any access to the team it became too big a risk to take.
First, the Giants have to manage the PR, which they've been doing. they say the right things, and let JPP come across as a money grubbing douche.
Second,in a few weeks, whether JPP cooperates or not, the Giants will know more about the situation.
As far as the fear of pulling the tag and watching him go elsewhere, it would be quite stupid of any team to pony up an elite contract of the type he undoubtedly still wants while not knowing how he's going to perform with his new physical situation. Not to mention they would be writing off the first year as mostly a wash. What he's likely to see is a short term show me contract, or a long term contract with low guaranteed/easy to dump him money.
I wouldn't hold on to him and release him at the last minute just to be a dick, but if he doesn't want to cooperate in the upcoming weeks, the Giants would be better off dropping the tag.
He didn't play at all due to the NFI would we still own his rights for next season?? It seems he is getting some bad advice, can we play hardball, and somehow come out of this controlling him for next season?
Until the facts are known and the recovery is well underway - 3-4 weeks - no need to do anything. In terms of writing him off for the year, weren't some not writing off OBJ for the year in mid September????? How did that prediction pan out??? JPP is an experienced DE - if Healthy by October, he may very well contribute. Making matter of fact analysis at this point is not smart. Do we never ever learn?
and just let it lie for now. Assess what you have on the team during training camp and most likely well into the season. When JPP notifies the team he's ready to take his physical, if you're happy with the way the team has performed you pull the tender and tell him thanks but no thanks.
but the Giants still have to see if he can play. The money is already allocated, they can't find a quality DE at this point, and what they have without him is uncertain at best, more likely weak. He wasn't worth the franchise tag, but he was to the Giants because they didn't want to give him a new contract, and they couldn't let him walk without someone to replace him yet. They are a hopefully a year away from that with Moore and Ozigadooie, but they need JPP's hand to heal and fast. I guess they save $ by putting him one the NFI list, but that won't help them win games. As far as his attitude, it is irrelevant. He will play when he can, and if the Giants make him happy and release him it will be the decision that needed to be made. Giants will have to suck it up. Draft another DE high in 2016. Sooner or later they have to get another good one like JPP?
I've gone from saying keep him around to wanting him gone and let somebody else deal with him. I can't see him making meaningful contributions in 2015, so withdrawing the tender seems to be the most logical move.
But, we don't have to do it today or tomorrow. Taking our time is prudent.
I'd be shocked along grateful if they any contribution from him this year. I still don't know all the ramifications as far as Cap situation and moneys if let go. If it was to Giants favor and can help in other areas, then I'd agree cut bait with him now if not a contributor this year.
Don't we still hold the cards? If he goes for his physical (with 4 fingers) can't we fail him then? He is not going to grow a new one. If we fail him then we are off the hook correct?
He didn't play at all due to the NFI would we still own his rights for next season?? It seems he is getting some bad advice, can we play hardball, and somehow come out of this controlling him for next season?
I don't believe so, not unless we offered him another tender next season.
As Eric stated, if he signs his tender, the Giants will put him on the NFI list, where he doesn't get paid, and he can't control when he comes off.
If he waits to sign his tender after he passes his physical, I don't think he could be put on the NFI list, so he would get paid, even if he's not in game shape. There is a risk the Giants could cut him, and his remaining salary isn't guaranteed.
All things considered, I'm not sure why not signing his tender right now is a bad decision for him.
That's the key question. Can they put him on the NFI once he signs the tender if he passes the team physical?
I have no idea, but philosophically, it wouldn't appear to make much sense if they could.
Another question - what does "the physical" even entail? If it's just a matter of certain feats of strength of endurance, with nothing subjective about it, is it plausible that JPP could pass a physical fairly soon?
What happens if Pierre-Paul reports after roster cutdowns thinking he will pass the physical but the Giants fail him?
NFI would be still be an option for the Giants. I solicited input from team executives that have experience with NFI for more insight. None of the executives had a definitive answer for this scenario since it would be unprecedented. One executive thought the six week rule would apply from the time Pierre-Paul signed. Another executive believed Pierre-Paul could be activated as soon as he could pass the physical without the six week rule applying. A third executive thought Pierre-Paul wouldn't be allowed to play at all if put on NFI after the regular season started.
The best course of action according all three executives if Pierre-Paul isn't going to sign until he believes he is healthy is visiting a doctor Parker trusts and uses for second medical opinions to make sure he would get clearance in order to avoid this scenario.
Another consideration with a late training camp or regular season signing is the Giants applying for a roster exemption with Commissioner Roger Goodell. Roster exemptions are usually granted for no more than two weeks. Parker/Pierre-Paul and the Giants would have to agree on his salary during a roster exemption prior to him signing his one-year contract.
The Giants are among the most loyal and classy organizations, but JPP has treated them like the enemy.
“Cut your losses and move on. Absolutely,” one NFL source said Thursday. “And for him not to allow the Giants to examine him, that would have been it for me. That’s bulls---. Gone. Obviously, they are hiding something. If I were John Mara, I would pull the franchise tender and he’s gone. Next.”
Jason Pierre-Paul continues to make poor decisions and Giants should cut ties with him - ( New Window )
The Giants need to do what is best for the organization, which isn't the same as cutting ties with JPP quickly, and at the moment, that probably means sitting tight until they have more information.
make it appear to me that his franchise tender may be the LAST contract he ever signs in the NFL and he is trying to get as much of it as he can by passing the physical as soon as possible.
His NFL career just may be over because of this injury and it is looking to me like he knows that.
If we traded for J.J. Watt on the Monday before Week 1, would we say "well, he doesn't know the playbook so he won't be able to contribute for several weeks"?
Will he be hurt, will his missing digit hurt him immensely, will he be out of shape? All legitimate questions. But the guy is a DE. If he is healthy, and that is a very big if, I'm really not worried about his knowledge of the playbook. He'll contribute if healthy and if in shape, if he shows up on September 12th. He can learn it as he goes.
Strahan said it took him a month to learn the defense after he held out. And Strahan is a little bit smarter than JPP.
The difference is Strahan learned the playbook. JPP didn't know last year's playbook. Look at how many times he bit on the read option and left the outside wide open. JPP is an athletic freak that gets away with not know what he's supposed to do (or at least not doing it) because of his strength, speed and quickness. Not knowing the playbook won't be the problem. It will be whether he can regain the strength and utilize the speed through all the pain.
I still agree with the franchise tag because of the potential that he has and he really seems like one of those contract year beasts but to me ,IMO, he's more of a compiler. As soon as the Giants are out of it he goes on a tear. Where was he for the important games the last few years? Also, all the talk of him being good against the run is bs. All Seattle and Jacksonville did was run the read draw to his side and he bit EVERY SINGLE TIME! That being said I'm not sure if they should keep him. I thought the Giants would stick by him but he's really making it difficult. Next man up.
the NFI list is similar to the Physically Unable to Perform (PUP) list in that the player is deactivated for a number of weeks before he is eligible to return. However, the player is not entitled to compensation while on NFI. Teams can opt to pay the player, but often it is at a dramatically reduced rate.
It would be more surprising if the Ravens sliced Suggs' pay, but the team is allowed to do so. It is also allowed to pay Suggs fully if it chooses. The team could technically try to withhold all of Suggs' salary, but sources told ESPN that nothing that drastic is expected with Peters or Suggs.
Even if JPP signs his tender and let's say we put him on NFI we could still play him fully if we want to correct? We could say hey, rest up, learn the system, and when you get come play well and you can get a bigger contract. If not by us, then by another team. This way the issue is not a distraction and he gets paid for games he doesn't play as a sign of good faith.
I have been on a little vacation so I haven't read all discussions Â
so maybe I missed it but why wouldn't the Giants simply offer him a lesser contract at this point? I doubt there are too many teams ready to outbid them right now?
LOL, all of this to try to get as much as possible from Â
what is most likely his last big pay day of his life. Boy how things can change in less than a week. From beginning to end, he has misplayed his hand (pun well intended). He could have already been signed to a lucrative short contract and just kept pumping the Giants for newer contracts ala Osi and Strahan.
Hell even if he was signed already and had his accident. He wouldn't even need to make dramatic decisions like cutting his damn finger off to rush back to try to collect on that franchise tag. He could have rehabbed this year knowing that the Giants would still look to keep him just like they did his fellow draft mate Chad Jones and he would have gotten his bonus money like Jones.
Welp, there is a parable about all of this. See you at a future NFL symposium of what not to do, JPP
I played golf today with a guy who played in an outing Monday.... Â
with John Mara. My friend said to him that it could have been worse with JPP, that he could have lit one on his head like the guy who got killed. His response was " I wouldn't put it past him."
Giants can use the $15m cap saving in 2015 OR 2016 Â
Eli & Prince are under contract for 2015 anyways. No need to rush anything now. If by the end of camp, they are not comfortable with JPP's situation, they can rescind the tag, then extend Eli, Prince or do whatever with the extra cap money. Or they may opt not to do anything in 2015, roll the $15m to 2016, and be able to do with it next year what they can do with it in 2015. Only they'll have an extra year to further evaluate the players, the coaching staff... the entire situation.
Its not like they're under the gun at this point, and need the cap space urgently
Even if JPP signs his tender and let's say we put him on NFI we could still play him fully if we want to correct? We could say hey, rest up, learn the system, and when you get come play well and you can get a bigger contract. If not by us, then by another team. This way the issue is not a distraction and he gets paid for games he doesn't play as a sign of good faith.
Sign of good faith? You mean like the way this has been handled by him and those advising him? We are already overpaying him, and now you want to pay him for not playing?
Can you imagine what every Giant or free agent that walks through Reese's door will think?
Ok, Jason, now please pick your nose -- right nostril, please. Now, using your right hand, indicate that your team is number 1, or that your team has made a 1st down.
FAIL
His post-football, career-dream of being a prostate examiner are probably over as well.
if JPPs camp doubts he'll be ready opening day, but thinks he'll be physically ready before week 7, then this makes sense.
The flip side is that if he signs the tender now and gets his a$$ to camp that he'll likely be mentally ready before week 7 too so if the Giants Drs then evaluate him before final cut down day and determine he's 2-3 weeks away, the Giants would likely carry him as an inactive for the first couple weeks and activate him ASAP, since a player of his caliber is worth that gamble (and in this scenario he'd get paid for all 16 games).
The problem is, for whatever reason, JPP and his agent don't seem to trust the Giants front office. They seem convinced that the second JPP signs the tender the Giants will place him on the NFI list which could lead to JPP missing 1/2 the season (i.e. $7.5M).
There's got to be some sort of happy medium here:
1. either don't sign the tender and still attend camp & the meetings
2. sign the tender with some sort of guarantee included that he won't be placed on the NFI list
So he would still get 7.5 mil for being a complete jedrool. This is an amazing country. I love Amereeka!!!!
Eli & Prince are under contract for 2015 anyways. No need to rush anything now. If by the end of camp, they are not comfortable with JPP's situation, they can rescind the tag, then extend Eli, Prince or do whatever with the extra cap money. Or they may opt not to do anything in 2015, roll the $15m to 2016, and be able to do with it next year what they can do with it in 2015. Only they'll have an extra year to further evaluate the players, the coaching staff... the entire situation.
Its not like they're under the gun at this point, and need the cap space urgently
Does the Giants' cash-spend need this year factor in at all? If I'm not mistaken, weren't they one of the teams below the threshold for actual cash spent during the new CBA period (presumably due to Eli's bonus eating cap but not counting as current cash spent)?
I assume the franchise player tag tendered to JPP was "exclusive." Is there any advantage to the Giants under the changed circumstances if they cancel the exclusive designation tender and substitute a "non-exclusive" tender? And, if there is some advantage in doing that (letting the market for him decide where he plays and for what compensation), is it too late to do it?
I think he is left-handed..:)
That's why you remove the tag, say thanks but no thanks and bank the cap for next year (which is likely to be a complete rebuild year if this year goes south) or use it to resign Prince or Eli
He must expect to be able to just turn it on after that.
Sooo, who are the top rated DE prospects for the 2016 draft?
Except his thumb wasn't amputated.
Quote:
Whichever comes first.
I think he is left-handed..:)
I wasn't sure to be honest, but it was too good to pass up.
What if they have a push-up requirement?
I don't get it either
WTF is he doing? Nobody is going to give him a huge contract now so why not just sign for the Franchise tag dollars?
But, we don't have to do it today or tomorrow. Taking our time is prudent.
The rest of this is academic and conjecture.
Bet with knowns, not the unknowns.
I know I can manage the team better with $15M in cap space.
I know I can find a guy or two using some of that cap space.
I know I can roll the cap space forward as well.
I DO NOT know when or if JPP will sign.
I DO NOT know what kind of JPP will be coming back to us.
I kind of know that with an injury such as this one, it is going to be hard has hell for JPP to be the player he was in the near term.
I know I have coaches and everyone kinds of playing on a one year term and should set them up as best you can for this year.
this is craziness.
with his head up his ass.
$14 million guaranteed and he's not signing despite his current, self inflicted state. He could literally have one setback in healing and never get a contract again.
He could just sign for $14 million and not play a down this year yet he just sits with nothing?
Lmao!
JPP's camp thinks there is a good chance he won't be ready for Week 1 but they think he will be ready before Week 7.
So they want to prevent missing all six full pay checks if he is on the NFI.
Problem is, but not showing up in camp, he probably won't play much in any of those games because he doesn't know the defense and he won't be in football shape. Probably doesn't care...just wants to get paid.
The player and agent have to want their deals to work that way.
JPP's camp thinks there is a good chance he won't be ready for Week 1 but they think he will be ready before Week 7.
So they want to prevent missing all six full pay checks if he is on the NFI.
Problem is, but not showing up in camp, he probably won't play much in any of those games because he doesn't know the defense and he won't be in football shape. Probably doesn't care...just wants to get paid.
I'm still not getting it....won't he miss all six game checks if he waits until Week 7 to sign?
The contract still gets pro-rated, right? He's not going to get $15 mil for weeks 7 through 16.
2. Couldn't the Giants realistically fail him on any physical until they thought he was ready, thus not allowing him to sign his tender, thus still withholding pay? Its a dirty game, something they probably wouldn't do, but certainly could happen unless I'm missing something.
If he signs the tender after the third game, he gets $900,000 per week for each game he didn't miss.
If this had happened prior to free agency I think that the outcome might have been different. At this point where else could we spend the $15 million (other than locking up our own guys)?
The flip side is that if he signs the tender now and gets his a$$ to camp that he'll likely be mentally ready before week 7 too so if the Giants Drs then evaluate him before final cut down day and determine he's 2-3 weeks away, the Giants would likely carry him as an inactive for the first couple weeks and activate him ASAP, since a player of his caliber is worth that gamble (and in this scenario he'd get paid for all 16 games).
The problem is, for whatever reason, JPP and his agent don't seem to trust the Giants front office. They seem convinced that the second JPP signs the tender the Giants will place him on the NFI list which could lead to JPP missing 1/2 the season (i.e. $7.5M).
There's got to be some sort of happy medium here:
1. either don't sign the tender and still attend camp & the meetings
2. sign the tender with some sort of guarantee included that he won't be placed on the NFI list
He's damaged good, in the fullest sense of the phrase.
“Cut your losses and move on. Absolutely,” one NFL source said Thursday. “And for him not to allow the Giants to examine him, that would have been it for me. That’s bulls---. Gone. Obviously, they are hiding something. If I were John Mara, I would pull the franchise tender and he’s gone. Next.”
Jason Pierre-Paul continues to make poor decisions and Giants should cut ties with him - ( New Window )
He said he wants to be a Giant; he will need to do a lot on the field and at the negotiating table to prove it.In the meantime the team drafts/signs DEs the next 2 off-seasons.
If he signs the tender after the third game, he gets $900,000 per week for each game he didn't miss.
Eric - gotcha. So there is a minimum sit out time....and it could be longer.
FAIL
His post-football, career-dream of being a prostate examiner are probably over as well.
He's damaged good, in the fullest sense of the phrase.
In straight up guaranteed money, no. But Dallas (and probably half a dozen other teams) would absolutely give him a deal loaded with incentives similar to the Greg Hardy deal -> the more games he plays in the more he makes.
Quote:
If he signs the tender and is still on the NFI by week one, he MUST sit out the first six weeks (and not get paid for those six games).
If he signs the tender after the third game, he gets $900,000 per week for each game he didn't miss.
Eric - gotcha. So there is a minimum sit out time....and it could be longer.
Yes, the NFI list is similar to PUP. If you're on it once the season starts, you automatically miss the first 6 games. Then you can start practicing, but can be held out for up to another 3 games after that.
Selfish, lazy and incredibly stupid.
As pointed out above, if he signs the tender now, and the Giants see he's not the same player. They can release him. The tender is not guaranteed.
Quoting one of my favorite movies: "It's a huge shit-sandwich and we're all gonna have to take a bite."
As pointed out above, if he signs the tender now, and the Giants see he's not the same player. They can release him. The tender is not guaranteed.
Quoting one of my favorite movies: "It's a huge shit-sandwich and we're all gonna have to take a bite."
I agree. I don't really hold anything against JPP for how he and his agent are handling this. His career hangs in the balance...now is not the time for him to be worried about being a team guy. Whether their strategy is actually in his best interest is a different story.
Whatever the case JPP is in a very bad spot, and it reminds me of a quote from the same movie from the beloved Animal Mother: "Better you than me."
Cap savings are the same if they pull the trigger now or wait 2 months.
If we traded for J.J. Watt on the Monday before Week 1, would we say "well, he doesn't know the playbook so he won't be able to contribute for several weeks"?
Will he be hurt, will his missing digit hurt him immensely, will he be out of shape? All legitimate questions. But the guy is a DE. If he is healthy, and that is a very big if, I'm really not worried about his knowledge of the playbook. He'll contribute if healthy and if in shape, if he shows up on September 12th. He can learn it as he goes.
Cap savings are the same if they pull the trigger now or wait 2 months.
Why would we want to make it hard for him to sign somewhere else? I would pack his bags for him if Dallas or Philly came calling.
He's a minus, not a plus.
Those saying you don't cut an asset....well your right but you are overlooking the fact that JPP has gone from asset to ass! There is no way his play will be significantly better than anyone we have on the team already by the end of the year to be worth the 14 million.
The Giants holding on to him is more about class then expectations of his performance and this is one time I disagree with them. TC must be pissed!
As pointed out above, if he signs the tender now, and the Giants see he's not the same player. They can release him. The tender is not guaranteed.
Quoting one of my favorite movies: "It's a huge shit-sandwich and we're all gonna have to take a bite."
If the tender is not guaranteed, does that money become a surplus of cap space if the Giants release him later?
If that's the case, JPP is just playing the "hide and hope" card? The Giants are going to see him within a month anyway. WtHeck?
but if the tender is not guaranteed then what? Does the money go back into the cap as a surplus?
If we traded for J.J. Watt on the Monday before Week 1, would we say "well, he doesn't know the playbook so he won't be able to contribute for several weeks"?
Will he be hurt, will his missing digit hurt him immensely, will he be out of shape? All legitimate questions. But the guy is a DE. If he is healthy, and that is a very big if, I'm really not worried about his knowledge of the playbook. He'll contribute if healthy and if in shape, if he shows up on September 12th. He can learn it as he goes.
Strahan said it took him a month to learn the defense after he held out. And Strahan is a little bit smarter than JPP.
Quote:
stop saying "he won't know the playbook"?
If we traded for J.J. Watt on the Monday before Week 1, would we say "well, he doesn't know the playbook so he won't be able to contribute for several weeks"?
Will he be hurt, will his missing digit hurt him immensely, will he be out of shape? All legitimate questions. But the guy is a DE. If he is healthy, and that is a very big if, I'm really not worried about his knowledge of the playbook. He'll contribute if healthy and if in shape, if he shows up on September 12th. He can learn it as he goes.
Strahan said it took him a month to learn the defense after he held out. And Strahan is a little bit smarter than JPP.
A LOT smarter
Q: So he has a playbook and can go over it?
A: Not all of it, but I have fed him some of the stuff as we’ve gone and progressed through and he was here and I met with him probably four or five times, maybe even six or seven times. We kind of implemented some of the stuff and how it is going to be introduced when we get to training camp. I thought he had a very good grasp of it when he left and when he gets here we’ll start and that is where we’ll begin.
Q: Do you get the sense that he is going to come in with the right frame of mind?
A: All of my contact with JPP has been positive. It is what it is; I don’t get involved with the business side of it. He seems to be in a very good place mentally and working out and keeping in very good shape. His weight was in a good place and so we’ll see when we begin.
Q: How hard is this defense to pick up? Is that really the part that he is missing now?
A: Yeah, there are wrinkles that you have got to be here to pick up and he has got to take it from the classroom to the field, but those things, we will begin in training camp and we will make it work.
Q: Is there still ample time with training camp in your mind?
A: Yes, if he comes in with the right frame of mind and in good shape, he will be ready to go.
It's not like he wasn't contributing on the field. My argument is simply that IF (A HUGE IF) JPP was healthy and in shape, even if he doesn't know the playbook well, he is still a huge contributor while he learns the playbook. He's not a WR who needs to know his routes. A DE's job is much less mentally taxing, in terms of learning the playbook, even given the fact that JPP is a moron.
1. When will he be ready to play again?
2. At what level will he be able to play?
They will have to go through camp without knowing this. How in the world can they be comfortable with that?
As far as being classy I say hey, if JPP wants to be all business about this and screw the Giants thinking only about the money, than the Giants should be thinking the same way and move on!
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if he gets released, no one is going to touch him this year for anything close to what he will make with the tender....NFI or not.
He's damaged good, in the fullest sense of the phrase.
In straight up guaranteed money, no. But Dallas (and probably half a dozen other teams) would absolutely give him a deal loaded with incentives similar to the Greg Hardy deal -> the more games he plays in the more he makes.
I think it's more than just showing up and being on the field....it's playing effectively.
I think teams would shy away IMO.
Eugene Parker is failing his client badly. It's his job to make JPP see reason and guide him through the pitfalls of a career crisis.
That said I am strongly moving to the side of pulling the tender and saving the money. Dallas last year was supposed to have a laughing stock of a defense and they for all intents and purpose should have beaten Green Bay to make the NFC Championship game. Name me some of the guys that were playing on their defense down the stretch.
JPP's camp thinks there is a good chance he won't be ready for Week 1 but they think he will be ready before Week 7.
So they want to prevent missing all six full pay checks if he is on the NFI.
Problem is, but not showing up in camp, he probably won't play much in any of those games because he doesn't know the defense and he won't be in football shape. Probably doesn't care...just wants to get paid.
That's the business side of it. But what about not letting the Giants representatives come and see how he is doing? At least see check all options before making a decision, such as asking the opinion of some of the best doctors in the NY area. That part annoys me. We are a classy organization, and we just wanted to make sure he was alright. I don't understand why he wouldn't let our people see him.
There are many on this board that think JPP will have a full recovery and be a force this season....
There are those who think JPP wasn't worth the the Franchise Tag before the injury.....
JPP's group is in total damage control mode....
The Giant front office is control of the situation, at the moment.....their final decision will be debated on this board, ad nauseam....
No strength training
Part of hand missing
Missing all the teaching that is critical to learn in camp
How many times do healthy people that miss camp, show up and immediately get injured (hamstring, quad, etc.)? There's a good chance he'll have additional issues showing up late with no camp.
He's not going to help this team this year anymore than current DEs on the team will and he will tie up 15 million dollars!
Cut bait with him please!!!
Besides, we refuse to draft anyone with a hint of an off the field problem. This guy just decided that playing with dangerous fireworks was more important to him than securing his safety. I have no problem letting him go, where you can guarantee he won't receive anywhere near franchise tender money this season.
--so if he's not signed when training camp starts, both sides get squeezed
--other teams might not place importance on being on training camp. Other teams might be willing to give him a full multi-year deal right now. But the Giants probably don't, or don't want to give him a big enough deal to satisfy him
--the gating item to a decision is the Giants will certainly need to examine him to actually keep the tag. At that point they might want to withdraw the tender or possibly might be willing to negotiate a different deal with JPP
--it makes sense for JPP to delay that as long as possible until the games start happening. He probably doesn't lose anything by waiting.
--once the season starts he starts losing money, so he wants things resolved by then
--so the Giants can choose either a JPP without a full training camp or, if it gets too close to Game 1, maybe a negotiated deal
Besides, we refuse to draft anyone with a hint of an off the field problem. This guy just decided that playing with dangerous fireworks was more important to him than securing his safety. I have no problem letting him go, where you can guarantee he won't receive anywhere near franchise tender money this season.
It's not guaranteed if you are injured via a non-football injury.
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If JPP wants to keep them out of all decisions, then they should wait until right before the season starts and then rescind it if he's still not ready. Make it as hard as possible for him to sign on somewhere else and contribute.
Cap savings are the same if they pull the trigger now or wait 2 months.
Why would we want to make it hard for him to sign somewhere else? I would pack his bags for him if Dallas or Philly came calling.
He's a minus, not a plus.
Please, I know you hate JPP and that he's not close to what we thought he'd become after 2011, but his 2014 level of play was easily top 5-10 among DEs. And he doesn't even have to play at that level to help a team.
Report: Jason Pierre-Paul Won’t Sign Tender Until Healthy - ( New Window )
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stop saying "he won't know the playbook"?
If we traded for J.J. Watt on the Monday before Week 1, would we say "well, he doesn't know the playbook so he won't be able to contribute for several weeks"?
Will he be hurt, will his missing digit hurt him immensely, will he be out of shape? All legitimate questions. But the guy is a DE. If he is healthy, and that is a very big if, I'm really not worried about his knowledge of the playbook. He'll contribute if healthy and if in shape, if he shows up on September 12th. He can learn it as he goes.
Strahan said it took him a month to learn the defense after he held out. And Strahan is a little bit smarter than JPP.
The Giants need to sever ties now. I have said before, when it comes to injuries, the Giants are one of the most upstanding and generous organizations in the league in terms of treatment provided, loyalty to players, injury settlements, concern for a player's long term health, etc. JPP is truly testing that reputation and so far the Giants have not re-acted for some strange reason. they need to not just take back the long term offer, but make it quite clear what their expectations are if JPP is to collect anywhere near the $14M from that tag. otherwise, they should pull it and be done.
This way he can learn the system and when healthy be able to contribute in as meaningful a way as he can with his new hand.
JPP just accelerated the future for this team. Players like
Hankins, Kennard, Collins, Prince, OBJ, Pugh, Richburg and Flowers are the future here and this is where the money needs to be spent. Not on some oft injured 9 finger loser.
--so if he's not signed when training camp starts, both sides get squeezed
--other teams might not place importance on being on training camp. Other teams might be willing to give him a full multi-year deal right now. But the Giants probably don't, or don't want to give him a big enough deal to satisfy him
--the gating item to a decision is the Giants will certainly need to examine him to actually keep the tag. At that point they might want to withdraw the tender or possibly might be willing to negotiate a different deal with JPP
--it makes sense for JPP to delay that as long as possible until the games start happening. He probably doesn't lose anything by waiting.
--once the season starts he starts losing money, so he wants things resolved by then
--so the Giants can choose either a JPP without a full training camp or, if it gets too close to Game 1, maybe a negotiated deal
The Giants only have until Thursday to withdraw the tag. They'd still have to pay if JJP signs late in the season and passes a medical but isn't able to play at an adequate level, and JPP doesn't need to present himself to that point I don't think.
I don't really understand why the Giants don't just pull the tag. There's clearly mistrust from JPP's camp or they're just hiding the extent of the injury eitherway I doubt there's much chance of coming to a long term arrangement.
Cut him, and if he bounces back elsewhere then people will just have to accept that. The unnamed NFL GM in one of the articles is right once he and his agent refused any access to the team it became too big a risk to take.
Is that incorrect?
Is that incorrect?
You are correct I believe
And if you're lucky you may even get a 3rd round comp pick back to help you for next year as well.
I also believe that it is next year, not this year where this team will really take off so if he isn't in the plans after this year just get rid of this mess now. Mara and Tisch are not dumb. They know this and they will not blame this on Coughlin or Reese as the injury excuse is valid and already there. Personally I think the coaches are playing with house money this year (their best OL and DL are gone before training camp!)
That kind of cap space could have netted them McCourtey and a top nickel CB this year like Skrine. So the $15M is very valuable if rolled over.
They can pull the tender any time.
I really hope Adrien Robinson isn't the JPP of tight ends
Yes, or you could roll the unused cap space into 2016.
Eugene Parker is failing his client badly. It's his job to make JPP see reason and guide him through the pitfalls of a career crisis.
Torrag at this point his agent is trying to get the last pennies he'll see from the JPP the football player.....His best interest is not a factor even if in reality they are tied at the hip .... he knows his career is 3 more years max...and this is the yr he gets the most he can....
If that is the case he might miss the first 4 games or so (assuming just a fine and no jail on FL) anyhow due to NFL suspention, right?
It sucks to say, but on July 4th the Giants team got worse for the 2015-16 season under any conceivable outcome. Why compound that and hurt the further future more when you could better use that 15 mil earmarked for JPP to their cap space next year by rolling it over. I agree, nothing needs to be done this very second, but pulling the tender right before the season started seems like the most prudent move for the GIants future.
Once he signs that tag after July 15th, there are only two options......he gets his franchise money based on when the Giants activate him....if they activate him, let's say, after week four, he gets paid for the remaining 12 games, even if he can't play at a high level.....once they take him off NFI, that money is guaranteed for the rest of the year.....
To my understanding, the only way they can negotiate a contract, after July 15th, is to rescind the tag, and that makes him, an UFA, and he doesn't have to sign with the Giants, especially if someone comes along with a better offer....
While the Giants, at the moment have the upper hand, what happens if, he signs the tag, and the Giants say he can't pass a physical, and put him on NFI, but JPP's camp says he can pass it? Exactly, how do you determine if the hand is ok? It may be healed, but what if the grip strength is not 100%? Who determines what level of grip strength/manual dexterity you have to have, to pass a physical? What % of state of health of that hand, rules whether he passes a physical? Can he pass the physical for the hand, but the Giants think it's not good enough, and still not pay him? This is only going to get worse....
Once he signs that tag after July 15th, there are only two options......he gets his franchise money based on when the Giants activate him....if they activate him, let's say, after week four, he gets paid for the remaining 12 games, even if he can't play at a high level.....once they take him off NFI, that money is guaranteed for the rest of the year.....
To my understanding, the only way they can negotiate a contract, after July 15th, is to rescind the tag, and that makes him, an UFA, and he doesn't have to sign with the Giants, especially if someone comes along with a better offer....
While the Giants, at the moment have the upper hand, what happens if, he signs the tag, and the Giants say he can't pass a physical, and put him on NFI, but JPP's camp says he can pass it? Exactly, how do you determine if the hand is ok? It may be healed, but what if the grip strength is not 100%? Who determines what level of grip strength/manual dexterity you have to have, to pass a physical? What % of state of health of that hand, rules whether he passes a physical? Can he pass the physical for the hand, but the Giants think it's not good enough, and still not pay him? This is only going to get worse....
JPP hoping no pushups or pullups are required
This is what I was referring too:
I have not heard anything since if some other city was going to press charges since Coral Springs decided it happened outside of their juristiction....
from nj.com - ( New Window )
It could have been brushed under the rug, but once someone made a complaint, now there has to be an investigation.....whether it leads anywhere, remains to be seen....
We had reports that JPP was allowed to come in during the spring, meet with the coaches, and discuss and learn the new defense.
Why would his ability to do that have changed?
*** I am not arguing that he has the desire to do that, just seeking to understand whether he will be restricted from doing that if the Giants wanted to let him.
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In comment 12365486 giants#1 said:
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If JPP wants to keep them out of all decisions, then they should wait until right before the season starts and then rescind it if he's still not ready. Make it as hard as possible for him to sign on somewhere else and contribute.
Cap savings are the same if they pull the trigger now or wait 2 months.
Why would we want to make it hard for him to sign somewhere else? I would pack his bags for him if Dallas or Philly came calling.
He's a minus, not a plus.
Please, I know you hate JPP and that he's not close to what we thought he'd become after 2011, but his 2014 level of play was easily top 5-10 among DEs. And he doesn't even have to play at that level to help a team.
I don't hate JPP. I've been objective this whole time. If it sounds like I hate him it's because the situation I'm objectively describing is a complete disaster.
But are the only options right now to either sign the tender or take the offer off the table? If JPP thinks he will be back before week 7 and is concerned about losing out on a few weeks of pay - since the Giants apparently want him here this year, can they offer a different deal, say for 10 million guaranteed this year?
That way, instead of signing the tender in week 4 (for example, assuming he won't pass a physical until at least week 3) and missing all of camp, etc. he can sign it now and make a similar amount of money as he would have this year anyway.
We have been fortunate with the 4 titles but this franchise has next to no longevity with any of their star players.
Teams like the Steelers are so fucking fortunate in that their star players play for 10-15 years more often than not...
This sucks. JPP should have had a nice long career here with the Giants. The 2013 seasons should have been a speed bump in a long storied career here.
Yeah, but usually my opinion is that it's very difficult to tell what ideas are the player's and what are his agent's.
The agents are incentivized to make every suggestion that will minimize the money lost. In general, they are much more innately skilled and/or practiced in the art of disseminating information and making these suggestions in a biased or outright manipulative way than their clients are at scrutinizing them -- that's why they're agents.
“As far as business goes, he was just saying you have to handle what you are here to do, and that is play football. Everything else will come with it. If you are not handling what you need to be doing, then it is going to make everything else a lot harder. First and foremost, handle your business.’’
I'm not talking about the mistake he made with the fireworks. I'm talking about the potential mistakes he appears to be making with his approach to his recovery and next contract.
If he wants to get paid, he should be preparing to have the best season he possibly can have. That will give him the best chance to get him a large, long-term contract.
His choice to not sign the tender, stay home and away from the team, and then show up and play immediately after passing a physical might pay him more this year, but if his performance is suspect his future contract will suffer.
I really don't think his advisors are being smart about all this, and it appears that OBJ and LJ would agree.
Really?
I don't really understand why the Giants don't just pull the tag. There's clearly mistrust from JPP's camp or they're just hiding the extent of the injury eitherway I doubt there's much chance of coming to a long term arrangement.
Cut him, and if he bounces back elsewhere then people will just have to accept that. The unnamed NFL GM in one of the articles is right once he and his agent refused any access to the team it became too big a risk to take.
This post nailed it ..
First, the Giants have to manage the PR, which they've been doing. they say the right things, and let JPP come across as a money grubbing douche.
Second,in a few weeks, whether JPP cooperates or not, the Giants will know more about the situation.
As far as the fear of pulling the tag and watching him go elsewhere, it would be quite stupid of any team to pony up an elite contract of the type he undoubtedly still wants while not knowing how he's going to perform with his new physical situation. Not to mention they would be writing off the first year as mostly a wash. What he's likely to see is a short term show me contract, or a long term contract with low guaranteed/easy to dump him money.
I wouldn't hold on to him and release him at the last minute just to be a dick, but if he doesn't want to cooperate in the upcoming weeks, the Giants would be better off dropping the tag.
But, we don't have to do it today or tomorrow. Taking our time is prudent.
I'd be shocked along grateful if they any contribution from him this year. I still don't know all the ramifications as far as Cap situation and moneys if let go. If it was to Giants favor and can help in other areas, then I'd agree cut bait with him now if not a contributor this year.
He said he was stumped.
I don't believe so, not unless we offered him another tender next season.
As Eric stated, if he signs his tender, the Giants will put him on the NFI list, where he doesn't get paid, and he can't control when he comes off.
If he waits to sign his tender after he passes his physical, I don't think he could be put on the NFI list, so he would get paid, even if he's not in game shape. There is a risk the Giants could cut him, and his remaining salary isn't guaranteed.
All things considered, I'm not sure why not signing his tender right now is a bad decision for him.
I have no idea, but philosophically, it wouldn't appear to make much sense if they could.
Another question - what does "the physical" even entail? If it's just a matter of certain feats of strength of endurance, with nothing subjective about it, is it plausible that JPP could pass a physical fairly soon?
I guess it's all how the team subjectively evaluates it.
NFI would be still be an option for the Giants. I solicited input from team executives that have experience with NFI for more insight. None of the executives had a definitive answer for this scenario since it would be unprecedented. One executive thought the six week rule would apply from the time Pierre-Paul signed. Another executive believed Pierre-Paul could be activated as soon as he could pass the physical without the six week rule applying. A third executive thought Pierre-Paul wouldn't be allowed to play at all if put on NFI after the regular season started.
The best course of action according all three executives if Pierre-Paul isn't going to sign until he believes he is healthy is visiting a doctor Parker trusts and uses for second medical opinions to make sure he would get clearance in order to avoid this scenario.
Another consideration with a late training camp or regular season signing is the Giants applying for a roster exemption with Commissioner Roger Goodell. Roster exemptions are usually granted for no more than two weeks. Parker/Pierre-Paul and the Giants would have to agree on his salary during a roster exemption prior to him signing his one-year contract.
Agent's Take: Answers relating to Pierre-Paul's contract, future - ( New Window )
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The Giants are among the most loyal and classy organizations, but JPP has treated them like the enemy.
“Cut your losses and move on. Absolutely,” one NFL source said Thursday. “And for him not to allow the Giants to examine him, that would have been it for me. That’s bulls---. Gone. Obviously, they are hiding something. If I were John Mara, I would pull the franchise tender and he’s gone. Next.”
Jason Pierre-Paul continues to make poor decisions and Giants should cut ties with him - ( New Window )
The Giants need to do what is best for the organization, which isn't the same as cutting ties with JPP quickly, and at the moment, that probably means sitting tight until they have more information.
I'm honestly not, not after this injury. So another way to look at not locking up $15M this season.
I think people are not giving this injury the credence it deserves. This is not a twisted ankle or a pulled hammy.
His NFL career just may be over because of this injury and it is looking to me like he knows that.
Really a sad situation.
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stop saying "he won't know the playbook"?
If we traded for J.J. Watt on the Monday before Week 1, would we say "well, he doesn't know the playbook so he won't be able to contribute for several weeks"?
Will he be hurt, will his missing digit hurt him immensely, will he be out of shape? All legitimate questions. But the guy is a DE. If he is healthy, and that is a very big if, I'm really not worried about his knowledge of the playbook. He'll contribute if healthy and if in shape, if he shows up on September 12th. He can learn it as he goes.
Strahan said it took him a month to learn the defense after he held out. And Strahan is a little bit smarter than JPP.
The difference is Strahan learned the playbook. JPP didn't know last year's playbook. Look at how many times he bit on the read option and left the outside wide open. JPP is an athletic freak that gets away with not know what he's supposed to do (or at least not doing it) because of his strength, speed and quickness. Not knowing the playbook won't be the problem. It will be whether he can regain the strength and utilize the speed through all the pain.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8292217b/article/terrell-suggs-jason-peters-could-lose-salary-for-injuries
Even if JPP signs his tender and let's say we put him on NFI we could still play him fully if we want to correct? We could say hey, rest up, learn the system, and when you get come play well and you can get a bigger contract. If not by us, then by another team. This way the issue is not a distraction and he gets paid for games he doesn't play as a sign of good faith.
Hell even if he was signed already and had his accident. He wouldn't even need to make dramatic decisions like cutting his damn finger off to rush back to try to collect on that franchise tag. He could have rehabbed this year knowing that the Giants would still look to keep him just like they did his fellow draft mate Chad Jones and he would have gotten his bonus money like Jones.
Welp, there is a parable about all of this. See you at a future NFL symposium of what not to do, JPP
Its not like they're under the gun at this point, and need the cap space urgently
Sign of good faith? You mean like the way this has been handled by him and those advising him? We are already overpaying him, and now you want to pay him for not playing?
Can you imagine what every Giant or free agent that walks through Reese's door will think?
FAIL
His post-football, career-dream of being a prostate examiner are probably over as well.
Post of the year.
The flip side is that if he signs the tender now and gets his a$$ to camp that he'll likely be mentally ready before week 7 too so if the Giants Drs then evaluate him before final cut down day and determine he's 2-3 weeks away, the Giants would likely carry him as an inactive for the first couple weeks and activate him ASAP, since a player of his caliber is worth that gamble (and in this scenario he'd get paid for all 16 games).
The problem is, for whatever reason, JPP and his agent don't seem to trust the Giants front office. They seem convinced that the second JPP signs the tender the Giants will place him on the NFI list which could lead to JPP missing 1/2 the season (i.e. $7.5M).
There's got to be some sort of happy medium here:
1. either don't sign the tender and still attend camp & the meetings
2. sign the tender with some sort of guarantee included that he won't be placed on the NFI list
So he would still get 7.5 mil for being a complete jedrool. This is an amazing country. I love Amereeka!!!!
In depth analysis?? Fuck this guy??
Sounds personal, B.
On a more heterosexual note, I agree.
Its not like they're under the gun at this point, and need the cap space urgently
Does the Giants' cash-spend need this year factor in at all? If I'm not mistaken, weren't they one of the teams below the threshold for actual cash spent during the new CBA period (presumably due to Eli's bonus eating cap but not counting as current cash spent)?
Just watch in a week we'll see pictures of JPP working out again. He can still use his legs.
Got it. Thanks.