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Options for Jason Pierre-Paul and Giants Moving Forward

Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/12/2015 11:12 am
Mostly an overview of what the NYDN already reported.
Options for Jason Pierre-Paul and Giants Moving Forward - ( New Window )
Eric, you already posted this:  
Doomster : 7/12/2015 11:22 am : link
NYDN: 5 ways fireworks mishap may play out for JPP

Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/11/2015 4:04 pm
FYI.
Five ways fireworks mishap may play out for Jason Pierre-Paul and the Giants - ( New Window )
Doomster  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/12/2015 11:24 am : link
There is additional information in my update.
Thanks Eric  
Tony-in-Wichita : 7/12/2015 11:35 am : link
Helps me understand the scenario a little more clearly.

I still can't believe this is happening, I had such high hopes for this season.

Sometimes adversity drives Eli and his troops to a Superbowl.. Or it gets a hall of fame coach fired
So if a negotiation is "most likely"  
BillT : 7/12/2015 11:42 am : link
What does that look like. Will JPP agree to a lower FT number. That's not what he's saying. He's saying he'll report if guaranteed the 14.8. Will the Giants pay 14.8? Doesn't seem likely. So, where are we?
BillT  
Matt M. : 7/12/2015 11:48 am : link
There is no lower Franchise number. It is determined by the league based on position. They can negotiate a long term deal with different terms.

Personally, I think the Giants are insane if the Giants guarantee anything they aren't legally required to.
BillT  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/12/2015 11:50 am : link
I think it really depends on how seriously his hand is messed up.

We don't really even know if he can play this year or ever again.

If he can realistically play before Week 6, then it makes sense for both sides to come to a compromise.

Matt  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/12/2015 11:51 am : link
No, according to the Daily News article, they can re-negotiate the franchise number.
the only brght side in this  
bc4life : 7/12/2015 12:08 pm : link
is that it will give all the DEs ample opportunities to show what they can do and perhaps give us a glimpse of what a post-JPP defense will look like.
Now  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/12/2015 12:26 pm : link
if JPP's hand is completely messed up, there is no advantage to an early resolution of this. It could drag on for weeks and weeks.
Eric  
BillT : 7/12/2015 12:38 pm : link
Thanks. It seems it could come to a head before we know for sure about his ability to play this year. If he demands the 14.8 it's hard to see how the Giants can agree to that. It would seem he has to compromise somewhat. It would be reasonable for him to do that but so far we haven't seen much from him that indicates that kind of good judgment from him. We should know soon though as I'm sure they will communicating about all this.
So the option where JPP turns into a man  
ZogZerg : 7/12/2015 12:44 pm : link
and takes responsibility for his actions by signing the tender, like he should have already done, showing up to camp on day 1 and trying to works his way back onto the team by studying the new defense, is not likely?

Instead, he'll tuck his head between his legs and hide behind his agent to milk the most money he can get and fuck the Giants as bad as possible.

Sounds about right for him.
ZogZerg  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/12/2015 12:48 pm : link
Every action taken thus far shows - right or wrong - that his #1 priority is maximizing the amount of money he will make in 2015. It's pretty clear - again right or wrong - that he is not thinking about the team at this point.

People are usually motivated most by self-interest.
RE: Thanks Eric  
EricJ : 7/12/2015 1:08 pm : link
In comment 12367794 Tony-in-Wichita said:
Quote:
Helps me understand the scenario a little more clearly.

I still can't believe this is happening, I had such high hopes for this season.


Tony, I am not sure why you are shocked. We have injuries every year and have a track record of having more injuries than any other team. Now, to your comment about having high hopes for this season. If two off season injuries tank our season (and it is not Eli), then once again this goes back to our lack of depth.

Meanwhile, everyone is talking about whether JPP will be able to use his hands efficiently to rush the passer. However, his value to me is stopping the run. He actually has done a better job as a run stopper than a sack master. When you consider that we have been run on quite a bit over the past couple of seasons, we cannot afford at all to be missing another quality run stopper. So, I would vote to keep him for that reason alone. If we are giving up 4+ yards per carry, then who really cares about the pass rush and what will it really matter?
I can't believe keeping him is even a consideration  
Go Terps : 7/12/2015 1:14 pm : link
.
Clear, helpful summary.  
CT Charlie : 7/12/2015 1:17 pm : link
I've waited a full week to read details of all the options, and it was worth the wait.
RE: I can't believe keeping him is even a consideration  
SGMen : 7/12/2015 1:39 pm : link
In comment 12367885 Go Terps said:
Quote:
.
Honestly, I'm with you on this. It isn't the injury that bothers me as much as his attitude since the injury and when honest his attitude BEFORE the injury.

I just don't think a "four fingered" DL whose attitude is not TEAM first; whose play has been average at times due to back issues; who is thinking of 2015 pay more than anything is worth it IF he can't play at a high level all year.

Look, if we don't have to pay him for say the first six games but know by the 7th game he'll be back 100% and on fire, then yes keep him for the downhill run. If he isn't coming to camp or to practice until he is 100%, well, I say let him go and make sure you use the money to sign Eli, Prince at least to long-term deals so you don't have to worry about either this off-season.
SGmen  
EricJ : 7/12/2015 2:01 pm : link
unfortunately, our lack of depth and overall decline in talent of the past few years has put us in a position where we almost have no choice but to keep him.
skin graft  
Hilary : 7/12/2015 2:12 pm : link
The healing time for a skin graft is long.I see no way JPP plays more than 1/2 season.Very sad but time to move on.
GoTerps  
GeoMan999 : 7/12/2015 2:36 pm : link
Everything has to be a consideration when we do not have all the facts. What if the Giants cut him and he goes on to play very well for an NFC East team and is resigned long-term? The Giants have to due their due diligence and there is still time to figure things out. I know it is tough to be patient.
RE: GoTerps  
Go Terps : 7/12/2015 2:45 pm : link
In comment 12367977 GeoMan999 said:
Quote:
Everything has to be a consideration when we do not have all the facts. What if the Giants cut him and he goes on to play very well for an NFC East team and is resigned long-term? The Giants have to due their due diligence and there is still time to figure things out. I know it is tough to be patient.


I hope he signs with an NFC East team.
I am trying to recall other Giants that waited till the last moment  
sb from NYT Forum : 7/12/2015 3:13 pm : link
...to sign a franchise tag. I am pretty sure it's happened, but I can't recall. Anyway, why not sign and then continue to work on a long term deal?

Since free agency started JPP has acted like the Giants are fucking him over by franchise tagging him. He might have forgotten the $15 million part. And go bitch at the NFLPA if you don't like the system.
RE: I am trying to recall other Giants that waited till the last moment  
ron mexico : 7/12/2015 4:14 pm : link
In comment 12368040 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
...to sign a franchise tag. I am pretty sure it's happened, but I can't recall. Anyway, why not sign and then continue to work on a long term deal?

Since free agency started JPP has acted like the Giants are fucking him over by franchise tagging him. He might have forgotten the $15 million part. And go bitch at the NFLPA if you don't like the system.


Jpp has followed the franchise tag playbook to a t. Well except for the part about blowing his hand apart.
Silver lining ??  
Reale01 : 7/12/2015 5:25 pm : link
There may be a silver lining for the Giants.

Prior to the injury most sources said that it was likely that JPP would not report until a week before the season - at the earliest. Now, with the injury, he may be in a lot sooner. I say this because JPP has indicated that he will report for training camp if the Giants agree to pay all - or most of the money if negotiated - they had planned to pay him this year.

SOOOOOOOO. IF, and it is a big IF, the injury does not cause a large drop in performance, or cause him to miss the start of the season, the Giants may have him productive sooner than they otherwise would have. His health is really the difference maker here.

On another note. The pictures of hands after surgery actually looked better than I would have expected. I wish him the best.
If i'm the Giants I would  
TommyWiseau : 7/12/2015 5:44 pm : link
Just pull the tender and allow him to become a free agent. Honor his health insurance unless another team picks him up. At that time let the other team handle his health insurance. Take that 15 million and extend some players or can we roll it over into next season?
As far as precedents go...  
Milton : 7/12/2015 6:15 pm : link
There was the case of Jason Peters re-tearing his achilles while working out on his own. The Eagles could've put him on NFI for the year, but instead worked out a reduction to his salary for the year.
Quote:
The Philadelphia Eagles modified Jason Peters' contract to provide for $4 million of his scheduled $7.9 million when he missed the entire 2012 season because of the ruptured Achilles he suffered while working out on his own. Peters was represented by Eugene Parker at that time, who is Pierre-Paul's agent.
Very difficult for the Giants to make any decisions without a physical  
Dry Lightning : 7/12/2015 6:29 pm : link
on the player. The only options that make sense are to negotiate a lower guarantee for this year, or withdraw the tender. This idea of him showing up when he wants to avoid NFI is just bullshit. He doesn't learn the defense but even scarier, I see a scenario where he says he is ready to play, but the Giants think he isn't. Which means this farce hangs over the team indefinitely. They need to give him an ultimatum at some point......take a physical-or fuck off. We gain something by withdrawing the tender-14 million to use this year or next on hopefully quality players.
RE: Very difficult for the Giants to make any decisions without a physical  
Milton : 7/12/2015 6:44 pm : link
In comment 12368206 Dry Lightning said:
Quote:
on the player. The only options that make sense are to negotiate a lower guarantee for this year, or withdraw the tender.
The Giants don't have to withdraw the tender in order to save the $14.8M. All they have to do is fail him on his physical after he signs it and then put him on NFI for the rest of the season.
Milton  
ColHowPepper : 7/12/2015 7:07 pm : link
I think you're drawing distinctions without a difference with Dry Lightning. You're both making the same points. I was going to quibble with the 2nd and 3rd bullets of the NYDN, poorly written, but the points are there.

Did Eugene Parker show up in JPP's camp after the 4th, or was he his agent prior to this fiasco? Strange how he should have been Jason Peters' agent, Peter[s] being the (English) equivalent of Pierre, and Jason = Jason, and the circumstances of their self-inflicted injuries being somewhat analogous.

WTF??

Who would have predicted that this is THE offseason story for NYG, with all of the potential story lines? OBJ, Cruz' rehab and readiness, re-signing Eli/Prince, return of Spags, Beatty going down and is EF ready to play LT, the shuffling of the OL, Safeties?, LBs?, TEs?, RBs?

WTF??
Milton what I am trying to say is  
Dry Lightning : 7/12/2015 7:25 pm : link
what if JPP comes in week two and says he is ready because he wants a paycheck, but the Giants doctors say no he is not ready and the team wants to NFI him. Then you have a grievance and a continuance of this situation all year.....possibly beyond.
RE: Milton  
Milton : 7/12/2015 7:27 pm : link
In comment 12368228 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
I think you're drawing distinctions without a difference with Dry Lightning. You're both making the same points.
No, he's saying that the Giants should withdraw the tender if JPP won't negotiate a lower guarantee; I'm saying that under no circumstances should the Giants withdraw the tender. The Giants gain nothing by withdrawing the tender (since the option of putting him on NFI remains even if he signs it) and they would lose their ability to control his rights for another season. And there is also the possibility that he signs with a team that the Giants have to play in December or January.

So under no circumstances should the Giants rescind the tender.
RE: RE: Very difficult for the Giants to make any decisions without a physical  
SGMen : 7/12/2015 8:00 pm : link
In comment 12368212 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 12368206 Dry Lightning said:


Quote:


on the player. The only options that make sense are to negotiate a lower guarantee for this year, or withdraw the tender.

The Giants don't have to withdraw the tender in order to save the $14.8M. All they have to do is fail him on his physical after he signs it and then put him on NFI for the rest of the season.
Interesting. If the Giants fail him after JPP's doctors assure him he should pass, well, I'd think there would be grievances & finger pointing and all that.

I honestly wonder whether JPP is worth the headache & bad publicity & lockerroom stuff that happens with this stuff. Not sure what will play out but I do know July 15th will be interesting.
Milton I understand your points  
Dry Lightning : 7/12/2015 8:35 pm : link
and that if the Giants withdraw the tender they lose leverage. But I, like many here, think he just is not that good a player. And he certainly is not going to be better after this. When is Damontre Moore going to play?, he is in his third year. That 14 million COULD get us a more productive player. Probably won't this year, but SHOULD, next year.
RE: RE: RE: Very difficult for the Giants to make any decisions without a physical  
Milton : 7/12/2015 8:44 pm : link
In comment 12368255 SGMen said:
Quote:
Interesting. If the Giants fail him after JPP's doctors assure him he should pass, well, I'd think there would be grievances & finger pointing and all that.
This is very true, it would likely wind up in court or arbitration if it comes to this, but I think the Giants would have the stronger case. When they applied the franchise tag he had ten fingers and when he took the physical he only had nine. And it's unlikely that his hand is going to be 100% at any point in the next few months. It certainly won't be for the early part of the year, so JPP would have to wait until well into the season before feeling confident he could pass a physical, which would mean he would be sacrificing roughly half the $14.8M anyway (give or take a few million) and then if the Giants failed him he would have to fight it in court; so I would think it would be in his interest to negotiate a settlement now in which the Giants get to have him in camp and in meetings until he is ready to practice with the goal of having him at the top of his game by the time December rolls around (or maybe even earlier).
RE: I can't believe keeping him is even a consideration  
D_Giants : 7/12/2015 8:50 pm : link
In comment 12367885 Go Terps said:
Quote:
.


I agree. Let's move on from JPP. Give some other athletes an opportunity to develop and support the team.
RE: Milton I understand your points  
Milton : 7/12/2015 8:50 pm : link
In comment 12368269 Dry Lightning said:
Quote:
and that if the Giants withdraw the tender they lose leverage. But I, like many here, think he just is not that good a player. And he certainly is not going to be better after this. When is Damontre Moore going to play?, he is in his third year. That 14 million COULD get us a more productive player. Probably won't this year, but SHOULD, next year.
They don't need the $14.8M this year, but they could certainly use it next year. It all comes down to how good the Giants think JPP can be come December and January and how much of the $14.8M they can shave off his compensation. Until they can satisfactorily answer those two questions (which won't happen until he takes a physical with team doctors), there is no reason to pull the tender, since signing the tender without a prior agreement from the Giants would put JPP completely at the team's mercy.
Miton's right  
imphree : 7/12/2015 9:26 pm : link
Much as I hate to say it, because I want this fiasco to be resolved one way or another way in the Giants favor much sooner than later. They have absolutely nothing to lose by waiting. They'll have to proceed as if he won't be back this year & hope to high hell that he won't be a distraction to the players or coaches. It's completely up to JPP how to deal w/ this, but the Giants won't be the loser if they just wait, JPP will.

My feeling is that JPP's injuries in the best case scenario are going to prevent him from being more than an average player & that's after many months to a year of learning & getting used to living, lifting & playing w/ one less finger. If he has problems with the skin grafts getting infected or not taking properly or requires more surgeries, that'll delay when he's able to play even more. If he has nerve problems in his hands or arms, his career is likely over. Add in the time it will take to effectively learn a very complicated system (mostly on his own) & he will have ever practiced it only between games, that doesn't bode well for him playing at all well this year.
FYI , the relevant language regarding contract re-negotiation.  
Enoch : 7/12/2015 10:08 pm : link
2011 CBA, Art 10, sec. 2(k):

Quote:
(k) Any Club designating a Franchise Player shall have until 4:00 p.m., New York time, on July 15 of the League Year (or, if July 15 falls on a Saturday or Sunday, the first Monday thereafter) for which the designation takes effect to sign the player to a multiyear contract or extension. After that date, the player may sign only a one-year Player Contract with his Prior Club for that season, and such Player Contract may not be extended until after the Club’s last regular season game of that League Year.


They can agree to anything prior to 7/15, but after that they are limited to a 1-year deal. Historically, tagged players have always just signed the Tender offer. But the CBA does not limit to that-- any kind of 1-year deal would be fine, if the parties agree to it.

Milton, I don't get it.....  
Doomster : 7/12/2015 10:09 pm : link
They don't need the $14.8M this year, but they could certainly use it next year.

Yes, they can certainly roll it over to next year, or if other injuries occur, can be used toward a slush fund for this year....



It all comes down to how good the Giants think JPP can be come December and January and how much of the $14.8M they can shave off his compensation.


This is where I don't think the Giants have complete leverage......he is not going to sign that tag UNTIL HE THINKS HE CAN PLAY. You actually think, the Giants can wait until December? January? You think JPP will allow them to keep him on NFI up until the 10th week? Optimism, thy name is Milton.....He is not going to sign for less......this is why he went for the amputation, so that he could heal and possibly be ready for week 1, 2, or 3....he is is trying to lose the least amount of money he can.....and if he thinks he is ready, come week 3 or sooner and the Giants don't, then that's where the Player's Union will step in......if the Giants stick with NFI, then he could possibly sue and actually make more money than the 14.8M, if the NFI decision goes against the Giants.....



Until they can satisfactorily answer those two questions (which won't happen until he takes a physical with team doctors), there is no reason to pull the tender, since signing the tender without a prior agreement from the Giants would put JPP completely at the team's mercy.

We have no idea what the actual physical entails....if the thumb fractures are deemed healed, and the graft also, how can they keep him on NFI? How do you determine loss of strength/ability that can prevent him from playing? You and I both know, the Giants will line up doctors saying no, and he will line them up saying yes......this will be where the Player's Union steps in and backs him......who knows how long this fiasco will go on?

Once July 15th passes, there is no negotiating......

The Giants are faced with a huge decision......can he be an effective defensive end that can play at a high level when he is activated? And how long do they think they can wait before activating him? If he misses too much time, it could be too late......so we have two sides.....one willing to have an amputation to quicken the healing process to be ready for week 1(and get max money), and the other side, in the throes of two straight losing seasons, missing the playoffs 5 out of the last 6 seasons, and desperately trying to right, a very unstable ship(another losing season could create more amputations of heads in high places)....both sides want guarantees....who will crack first?

It's kind of damned if you do, and damned if you don't for the Giants......if they let him go, and he plays well for another team, and they falter? Or they keep him, pay him, and he doesn't deliver?

This is suppose to be Reese's "easy time".....it's anything but that.....
Too many unknowns to keep him  
nicky43 : 7/13/2015 8:19 am : link
When will he be ready to play - Unknown
When will we know when he will be ready to play - Unknown
How good will he be when he is ready to play - Unknown
Will he ever get his head straight - Unknown

I can only hope that the Giants are not serious about keeping JPP and are just stringing him along for the time being while they give the young kids a good look. JPP will be worthless as a DE in 2015.
IMO  
fkap : 7/13/2015 8:52 am : link
first thing is a sign of good faith from JPP's camp and that is allowing a full medical examination.

sans that, play hard ball with him, because no examination means things are bad.
NYG is playing this correctly  
JonC : 7/13/2015 9:13 am : link
Wait it out, gather facts, and make decisions as required.

The longer this particular game of chicken plays out with no physical examination completed by NYG, the more likely imv he's going to be out for awhile.
The rest of the NFL is watching  
JonC : 7/13/2015 9:15 am : link
NYG is very unlikely to simply and completely cut bait on his, even though they're well within rights to do so. Factor in how JPP's camp has handled this so far, and it strengthens NYG's position. But, even if they decide to cut bait on him I'd look for a settlement/payment of some kind to be worked out.
... and re. Milton  
ColHowPepper : 7/13/2015 9:26 am : link
Milton, got it as between you and DryLightning.

Another factor that (maybe) has not been mentioned is, assuming it plays out as Milton suggests--not pulling the FT under any circumstances--and then we have the battle between the respective medical teams on NFI and fitness to play, how does this all play out in the locker room?

The coaching staff obviously has to align with the position of the FO on JPP's (non-)readiness to play. How do JPP's teammates take to this? Has there been any poop as to player reaction to this saga? If there is meaningful risk that schism between player and FO, does it infiltrate the clubhouse and affect field performance?

This argues for negotiated arrangement at some level below FT amount or a clean break.
I would assume as this plays out pressure will fall on JPP  
UberAlias : 7/13/2015 9:34 am : link
For a few reasons. First is that he won't be getting paid.

Second is that he wants to get that big contract, but he must realize he isn't going to get that unless he shows that he is able to play and play at a high level.

If he sits out this year, he'll get his shot in FA, but how big of a commitment would a team really make to him to without seeing him play? And to this end, we have seen several NFL players say he is going to have to relearn how to play. Assuming that is the case, the longer he puts off getting back out there the less effective he's going to be in convincing anyone he's any more than damaged goods.

The problem he has right now is that playing for NYG this year and showing he can play well is his only shot at a contract near what he is looking for next year, IMO. I have to assume that would sync in at some point.

My guess is JPP will come back as soon as he is able to practice, but no sooner, and no later.
correction/clarification, if he sits out the year  
ron mexico : 7/13/2015 10:04 am : link
The Giants retain the right to franchise him in 2016
Why in the world,  
Doomster : 7/13/2015 10:35 am : link
would he sit out the year? He is aiming for week 1, whether he is ready or not....
RE: The rest of the NFL is watching  
LAXin : 7/13/2015 10:54 am : link
In comment 12368470 JonC said:
Quote:
But, even if they decide to cut bait on him I'd look for a settlement/payment of some kind to be worked out.


Settlement/payment ... for what? JPP's agent was factually correct when he stated that "He doesn't have an employer. He played out his contract."

And even if he was on a contract, his injury was from fire work, a completely self-inflicted wound. It's not even from a traffic accident, which, even on a one-car crash, one can usually blame the weather and road condition.
There's going to be a deal  
HomerJones45 : 7/13/2015 10:55 am : link
there is leverage on both sides. The Giants don't want to yank the tender and make JPP a free agent; he is the defense's best player and some other team will jump on him in a heartbeat. They've got to leave it on the table and he can sign it at any time.

JPP doesn't want to sign and lose a minimum of 6 games worth of dough when the Giants NFI him or suspend him like they did with Burress and keep the money. He is going to wait until his doctors say he can play, which will probably be next month, and then sign. In the meantime, he's going to keep the Giants guessing as to his physical condition so there is risk as to whether to pull the tender.

So both sides are doing what they need to do at the moment. JPP isn't signing and the Giants aren't pulling the tender.

And for those of you crying because JPP isn't doing what's "best for the team", grow up. This is business negotiation with hundreds of thousand of dollars at stake. I would expect both sides to position themselves for what is best for them and not for the other.
JPP  
stretch234 : 7/13/2015 11:00 am : link
What is the benefit for the Giants to rescind the tag. The money is already allocated for him to be here. They have all the leverage - you do not just give that up

It keeps him away from another teams.

The reality is that yes, he would most likely not find 14.8M on the open market. That does not, however guarantee another teams from offering a multi year contract and redo after a year.

Again, signing Eli is not dictated by anything currently happening with JPP. Neither will the negotiations with Prince. They Giants always have numbers in mind and negotiate that way. There is also zero chance they are meeting the current ludicrous demands of Mathis - with money available.
.  
Go Terps : 7/13/2015 11:01 am : link
I wouldn't consider JPP much of an asset. His presence on the team in 2015 would be a net negative.
RE: RE: The rest of the NFL is watching  
JonC : 7/13/2015 11:06 am : link
In comment 12368639 LAXin said:
Quote:
In comment 12368470 JonC said:


Quote:


But, even if they decide to cut bait on him I'd look for a settlement/payment of some kind to be worked out.



Settlement/payment ... for what? JPP's agent was factually correct when he stated that "He doesn't have an employer. He played out his contract."

And even if he was on a contract, his injury was from fire work, a completely self-inflicted wound. It's not even from a traffic accident, which, even on a one-car crash, one can usually blame the weather and road condition.


I personally agree with you, but I'd be surprised if NYG didn't offer to make a payment of some kind. Remember, other players and agents are watching, some unrequired goodwill wouldn't hurt. JPP's behavior during this episode certainly doesn't help his cause in any way. I wouldn't give him a dime.

Why would people be surprised JPP is doing all he can  
Mike from Ohio : 7/13/2015 11:07 am : link
to maximize his payout this year? The guy may have just ended his career and be looking at his last significant pay day. Why would he possibly do what is best for the team if it costs him money?

JPP is an idiot, and I hope sooner rather than later is no longer on the team, but I really can't blame him for not putting the team first. I also can't blame the Giants for playing hardball with him until the situation is resolved. This is just the way it works.
Redux  
JonC : 7/13/2015 12:19 pm : link
As things are, NYG is apparently largely in the dark. Given the money at stake, we can expect JPP's camp to continue to try and guide the narrative to extract maximum dollars from NYG. 2015 could be a lost year for JPP. If I'm NYG, he only gets paid if he plays or if this has some framework of compromise/resolution in the near term. I don't think they'll cut bait on him anytime soon. But, I do think if they cut bait on him playing in 2015 they wouldn't force him to go without any money even if he doesn't play. They're going to take the high road and show some level of financial contribution, imv. That's what I meant by cutting bait and settlement, not reaching a settlement anytime soon and then allowing him to sign with another team.
What I wonder is whether  
Enoch : 7/13/2015 12:48 pm : link
offering payment or free services to a free agent is some sort of CBA violation. It amounts to paying a player outside the confines of a player contract that was approved by the NFL.
I suppose they'd frame it under the expecation he'd play  
JonC : 7/13/2015 12:56 pm : link
and then if he doesn't, it's c'est la vie and put him on IR at mid-season, for example.

Got to wonder if there's a team out there that's let the agent know they've got a deal waiting for his client, if he can extricate him from NYG's control.
another  
blue42 : 7/13/2015 1:10 pm : link
team is going to want to see that hand before they give him anything....sooner or later he's got to have an examination.
Jon  
ColHowPepper : 7/13/2015 1:16 pm : link
been wondering the same, and given JPP's nominal status as a player not under contract nor the FT, also wonder how, if at all, tampering rules apply.

This is new ground, I think, a player's physical status and ability to play (at his former level, or short of that) being a virtual unknown, black hole and at the same time being a FA, or soon to be. I wonder if Eugene Parker is having fun? (:
CHP  
JonC : 7/13/2015 1:19 pm : link
Something stinks and the actual condition of his hand and ability to play football aren't all of it.
you have to wonder how far  
fkap : 7/13/2015 1:19 pm : link
the Giants largesse would extend IF JPP continues to shut them out?

It's early yet. there's lots of posturing going on. but let's say JPP isn't going to be anywhere near ready late preseason, or halfway through the season, AND has been completely shutting out the Giants. At what point can the Giants say 'ya know, we tried, but he doesn't seem interested in anything but money' and cut bait without giving him a dime?
CHP  
fkap : 7/13/2015 1:23 pm : link
his right are solely held by the Giants. He isn't in no man's land. anyone talking to him about a contract is tampering. proving it is a whole other matter.
fkap  
ColHowPepper : 7/13/2015 1:27 pm : link
true, but my point is, I would be willing to bet, that there are "conversations" going on between JPP and ostensible suitor handicapping the discount to PV of various contract offers premised on what the Giants do/don't do and when they do it.

How truthful Parker is being in terms of valid info to arrive at PV is another matter.
RE: Redux  
HomerJones45 : 7/13/2015 2:17 pm : link
In comment 12368824 JonC said:
Quote:
As things are, NYG is apparently largely in the dark. Given the money at stake, we can expect JPP's camp to continue to try and guide the narrative to extract maximum dollars from NYG. 2015 could be a lost year for JPP. If I'm NYG, he only gets paid if he plays or if this has some framework of compromise/resolution in the near term. I don't think they'll cut bait on him anytime soon. But, I do think if they cut bait on him playing in 2015 they wouldn't force him to go without any money even if he doesn't play. They're going to take the high road and show some level of financial contribution, imv. That's what I meant by cutting bait and settlement, not reaching a settlement anytime soon and then allowing him to sign with another team.
The one's guiding the narrative so far has been the Giants and their toadies in the sporting press. The themes are: JPP is an idiot (even though no one but he and whoever was at his house knows exactly what happened and they aren't talking), JPP will be unable to play at a high level (with selected former players trotted out to opine), the team has all the leverage (obviously not true or he'd sign the tender), and no one else will give him a $15 mill per year contract (an assumption, not fact).
RE: you have to wonder how far  
HomerJones45 : 7/13/2015 2:19 pm : link
In comment 12368969 fkap said:
Quote:
the Giants largesse would extend IF JPP continues to shut them out?

It's early yet. there's lots of posturing going on. but let's say JPP isn't going to be anywhere near ready late preseason, or halfway through the season, AND has been completely shutting out the Giants. At what point can the Giants say 'ya know, we tried, but he doesn't seem interested in anything but money' and cut bait without giving him a dime?
At any time by withdrawing the tender and making him a free agent. They aren't doing that. What does that tell you?
NYG should be out in front of it  
JonC : 7/13/2015 2:20 pm : link
they're not the ones who fucked up, the player did.

That said, plenty of narratives leaked into the media by the agent, even before NYG hit the PR counterpunch button. rich in DC pointed out several last week, among other posters.

HomerJOnes  
fkap : 7/13/2015 3:56 pm : link
point: as JonC has said, the Giants take care of their own. It's not in character for them to simply pull the plug.

counterpoint: at some point (I don't think we're there yet) the Giants will be able to make an honest fair settlement offer, and if rejected, say fuck this, tag's gone, you get nada. but this really isn't the way Giants work. but it takes two to tango. JPP can make it easy on the Giants by continuing to shut them out.

Not pulling the plug yet means nothing. It's too soon. even if they plan to, it's prudent to see what happens, and they need to give it time so that JPP is the bad boy.
RE: HomerJOnes  
OC2.0 : 7/13/2015 5:11 pm : link
In comment 12369273 fkap said:
Quote:
point: as JonC has said, the Giants take care of their own. It's not in character for them to simply pull the plug.

counterpoint: at some point (I don't think we're there yet) the Giants will be able to make an honest fair settlement offer, and if rejected, say fuck this, tag's gone, you get nada. but this really isn't the way Giants work. but it takes two to tango. JPP can make it easy on the Giants by continuing to shut them out.

Not pulling the plug yet means nothing. It's too soon. even if they plan to, it's prudent to see what happens, and they need to give it time so that JPP is the bad boy.


Said it before on 1 of the million threads re: this subject. Mara, by now with all the BS with JPP's "advisors" might be getting ready to jettison his ass. I would in his place. The injury is 1 thing, but the follow up non-sense is something that might tip the scales
there is some precedent here  
fkap : 7/13/2015 5:27 pm : link
when Steve Smith blew his knee up, the Giants didn't exactly take care of him. His contract ended and they low balled him on the next offer. There was some contention about whether the Giants did/didn't have an offer on the table at the time of the injury, but after the injury, there was no doubt that there was no offer but a low ball one.

They have a decent history of not being dicks, but it's not like they haven't just cut bait.

Think they can easily get out of jail free on JPP if PR is managed correctly.
I wouldn't worry about PR  
Go Terps : 7/13/2015 5:32 pm : link
Money talks. No one in the future is going to not come to the Giants if they pull the tag on JPP. Besides, any player dumb enough to base a decision on that is probably a player we don't want anyway.

From an objective business standpoint JPP is unlikely to be worth a single dollar of cap space in 2015. That's the reality of blowing up your hand if you're a football player.
while I don't agree with Go terps zero value  
ron mexico : 7/13/2015 5:48 pm : link
he is right that public relations are not an issue for the team.

I don't think anyone could fault them for pulling the tag if it comes to that.

RE: HomerJOnes  
HomerJones45 : 7/13/2015 8:02 pm : link
In comment 12369273 fkap said:
Quote:
point: as JonC has said, the Giants take care of their own. It's not in character for them to simply pull the plug.

counterpoint: at some point (I don't think we're there yet) the Giants will be able to make an honest fair settlement offer, and if rejected, say fuck this, tag's gone, you get nada. but this really isn't the way Giants work. but it takes two to tango. JPP can make it easy on the Giants by continuing to shut them out.

Not pulling the plug yet means nothing. It's too soon. even if they plan to, it's prudent to see what happens, and they need to give it time so that JPP is the bad boy.
You guys are naive. Ask Burress how he was taken csre of. The Giants have cultivated that image in the press and with select fans for some years now. Is it true? For a few, yes and for many others no. Would you want to bet hundreds of thousands on whether you are going to be in the former group as opposed to the latter?
Giants paid Plax a fortune.  
bceagle05 : 7/13/2015 8:27 pm : link
A nice, fat new contract on the eve of the '08 opener. He has himself to blame for the money he lost.
Who knows if he will be the same?  
DefenseWinsChampionships : 7/13/2015 11:56 pm : link
people are like "oh its no big deal, he just lost a finger and fractured his thumb"....oh really? OK...hope so, but just no way of knowing
Plax is another precedent  
fkap : 7/14/2015 8:37 am : link
granted, he was the most fined player of anyone in Giants history, but when he fucked up BIG time, the Giants weren't looking to take care of him.

More and more, I'm beginning to believe that the Giants take care of those they think might be in their future. (Chad Jones was an outlier, and relatively small potatoes) I think they want JPP and still think he has a role (I agree. he's not worth the money he wanted, but he's still going to be a darn good player, even missing a finger. the trick is getting the dollar value in the same range as the playing value). If they think they have a shot at keeping him long term, they'll play ball with him. If he doesn't play along, the Giants can be quite ruthless. they aren't handing him 15 mil just to be nice guys.
Plax was fortunate he didn't kill another human being  
JonC : 7/14/2015 8:43 am : link
in a city with punitive gun laws, and a long history of stupidity and insubordination. The gun was the last straw. Clearly, JPP's situation is a different scenario, so let's cease the strawman.
We can find plenty of examples  
JonC : 7/14/2015 8:51 am : link
where NYG may have treated a player in a less than desirable fashion, and manipulated the PR to their advantage. That's every day life. But, there's more examples of proper treatment to the extent they've earned an excellent reputation on the whole.
What?  
Doomster : 7/14/2015 9:17 am : link
there is some precedent here
fkap : 7/13/2015 5:27 pm : link : reply
when Steve Smith blew his knee up, the Giants didn't exactly take care of him. His contract ended and they low balled him on the next offer. There was some contention about whether the Giants did/didn't have an offer on the table at the time of the injury, but after the injury, there was no doubt that there was no offer but a low ball one.

Are you kidding me? The Giants made him a good offer, and he turned it down(even Smith avoids the subject of that contract)....then he got the injury?

Were they going to offer him the same deal after the injury?

Absolutely not....

They more or less offered him a one year show me deal, and were supposedly ready to PUP him for the start of the season, to take his time and not rush his return....instead, what did he get from the Eagles, who rushed him back too soon?
they were both playing with explosives.  
fkap : 7/14/2015 9:25 am : link
both doing dumb shit. both were lucky they only hurt themselves.

I agree that the Giants typically do take care of their own, but they also aren't always saints. we can take the stance too far in either direction. I've usually agreed with you that the Giants take care of their own. I think you're taking it for granted that they'll do the same for JPP.

my point is that I wouldn't automatically chalk up the Giants to being such good guys that they're going to give JPP oodles of money no matter what. that's not a straw horse. I've constantly said that if JPP cooperates he can get a lot of money, and then move on next year. I've also said that if he doesn't cooperate, the Giants would be well within their rights of just stiffing him.
The only logical conclusion to draw from Just Plain Pathetic's  
Victor in CT : 7/14/2015 9:27 am : link
refusal to let the Giants see him is that it is much worse than any one has imagined.

Perhaps he is waiting until he learns how to sign his name left handed and is able to ink the tag deal. ;-)
This is actually naive..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/14/2015 9:30 am : link
Quote:
You guys are naive. Ask Burress how he was taken care of


Asking Burress anything and trying to make sense of it is worthless. The guy thought he was wronged for being a jackass and putting himself and others in danger. The guy doesn't think he did anything wrong to this day(or at least not enough to be in trouble for it).

The Giants took care of Plax as well as can be expected. They took care of him as well as a guy who racks up fines should be taken care of.

I really don't think asking Burress is a good idea because to the rest of the world, the guy is a fuckup and moron and the Giants did the best they could for him.
Doomster  
fkap : 7/14/2015 9:30 am : link
I never said anything different regarding Smith.

he had a good offer
he was playing the usual game of holding out for more. Usually works, and it's the way most players/teams operate.
got hurt
Giants offer went to minimum wage. don't blame them at all. but it wasn't taking care of a guy who was an integral part of their SB success. It was a 'sucks you got hurt before signing, here's the new reality'.
fkap  
JonC : 7/14/2015 9:33 am : link
I think you're speaking to HJ and or Doomster, but fwiw my two prior posts were to HJ and speaking in general when posters conflate JPP and Plax.
I do buy into the initial JPP reaction  
Big Blue '56 : 7/14/2015 9:43 am : link
of not wanting to see anyone given the trauma of it all, physically and mentally..I wouldn't want to either..But after the surgery et al? That I don't buy into
RE: I do buy into the initial JPP reaction  
ron mexico : 7/14/2015 9:48 am : link
In comment 12370218 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
of not wanting to see anyone given the trauma of it all, physically and mentally..I wouldn't want to either..But after the surgery et al? That I don't buy into


Its clear his strategy (right now) is to not sign till he thinks he can pass a physical to avoid the NFI designation. In that case, there is no benefit to him of letting the Giants in and inspect the hand.

Why are some equating taking care of someone  
Matt M. : 7/14/2015 9:55 am : link
grossly overpaying for their services? For example, the giants were taking care of Steve Smith by trying to bring him along slowly. He went for the big payday by a franchise that told him he will play right away. How did that work out for him? What did the Giants do that constitutes "not taking care" of Plax? Were they supposed to give him a ridiculous contract after prison?

They have a reputation for treating injured players pretty fairly and generously, with Chad Jones being an excellent example. They often go above and beyond what the CBA and league require. Hell, even two guys they take heat for, in Simms and Bavaro, the team made decisions not just on the cap, but in the thinking that each was done playing due to age and injury. Bavaro did play a few more years, but as a shell of himself and doing further damage to an already wrecked knee.
In that vein  
Matt M. : 7/14/2015 9:58 am : link
The Giants have many ways they can "take care" of JPP without guaranteeing him the $14.8M. They can release him of the tag, which grants him his supposed FA wish. They can keep the franchise tag, which still guarantees him millions of dollars, whether it is the full amount or after the 6 weeks, if he is placed on NFI list. At this point, "taking care" of him, may not be rushing him back on the field for Week 1, whether he wants to see that or not.
RE: In that vein  
ron mexico : 7/14/2015 10:02 am : link
In comment 12370249 Matt M. said:
Quote:
They can release him of the tag, which grants him his supposed FA wish.


This is an unstantiated and frankly non-sensical rumor.

The last thing JPP would want right now is to have the tag removed.
unsubstantiated  
ron mexico : 7/14/2015 10:03 am : link
.
ron  
Matt M. : 7/14/2015 10:19 am : link
That is why I said "supposed". However, I don't think anyone knows the deal from JPP's perspective because the whole situation from the actual fireworks down to his time in the hospital has been illogical and strange.
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