NFT: Knicks Chat: James Worthy BIG TIME Zinger fan

Roth first saw Porzingis’ “toughness” in one of his early practices. The teen corralled an offensive rebound, which is nothing special when you’re 7-1. But then ...

“In the past, I’ve been around players of that size, and they try to finesse it in, pump-fake you or take a fadeaway,” Roth said. “This kid, nine times out of 10, would just the take ball and try to dunk it through you. That showed me that there wasn’t any fear.”


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2. Minnesota Timberwolves — Derrick Williams, SF/PF, Arizona: The Timberwolves spent most of the day sending out strong signals that they were strongly considering Enes Kanter with this No. 2 pick, but GM David Kahn continued his strategy of "asset collection" by taking Derrick Williams. Williams is arguably the most talented player in this draft, as his inside-outside game will prove to be a match-up nightmare. However, with Michael Beasley and Anthony Randolph already on the roster (not to mention Kevin Love), don't be surprised to see a trade. Williams is efficient, explosive, and gifted. He's one of the few prospects in this draft with All-Star potential. -Nick Prevenas


Crazy how far he has fallen

In comment 12369007 DanMetroMan said:

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2. Minnesota Timberwolves — Derrick Williams, SF/PF, Arizona: The Timberwolves spent most of the day sending out strong signals that they were strongly considering Enes Kanter with this No. 2 pick, but GM David Kahn continued his strategy of "asset collection" by taking Derrick Williams. Williams is arguably the most talented player in this draft, as his inside-outside game will prove to be a match-up nightmare. However, with Michael Beasley and Anthony Randolph already on the roster (not to mention Kevin Love), don't be surprised to see a trade. Williams is efficient, explosive, and gifted. He's one of the few prospects in this draft with All-Star potential. -Nick Prevenas Crazy how far he has fallen

The talent is there. You can see it oozing in those few games he goes off. He has a very high motor in those games and can finish extremely tough shots around the rim. I think for the most part he is too passive and settles for tough perimeter shots that aren't really his game.

Despite all the speculation that Kanter could go #2, the Timberwolves opted for the best available player in Derrick Williams. They already have a similar player in Beasley, but Williams shoots much more efficiently from the field and is a player you can win with. If Kahn has the opportunity to move Beasley for a quality veteran then I'm sure he'll pull the trigger. Brad Miller was picked up in a flurry of T-Wolves trades on Thursday, but it'll take a lot more than him to make the team respectable again. Kahn also maneuvered his way to Malcolm Lee at 43, who can offer the team a good defender, but little else at this point. They moved the 20th pick in a deal that ridded themselves of draft mistake Jonny Flynn, but should have held onto that pick and kept Motiejunas.


CBS-

No. 2: Minnesota Timberwolves select Derrick Williams, F, Arizona

After weeks of posturing and talking, the Minnesota Timberwolves ended up doing pretty much what we all expected them to do: They drafted Derrick Williams from Arizona.

(Now, before I really get into this, keep in mind the Wolves could very well trade Williams later. Maybe by the end of the night, maybe tomorrow. Just want to get that out there.)

I think everyone agrees that the second best player in this draft was Williams, with some even seeing him as maybe the best. So to take him second overall makes sense. What didn't make sense for the Wolves, and the reason they shopped the pick so hard, is how Williams fits within the already jumbled roster David Kahn has assembled. It makes sense to move Michael Beasley now and clear room for Williams to play. But if that doesn't happen, the Wolves rotation is a total mess of raw talent without any rhyme or reason.

Which is what makes the most sense. A core of Ricky Rubio, Kevin Love and Williams isn't a bad trio. Love and Williams are a bit similar and with Williams kind of being a tweener forward, there could be some awkwardness in the two fitting together, but you have to go with him here.

It still makes a lot of sense for the Wolves to move Williams if a deal comes along, but for now, the idea is for Kahn to clear out the clutter a bit and really let his core of young, talented players take over. That's how the Thunder built around Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook and at the same, Jeff Green. Those guys had room to fail, then grow and most importantly, develop. Give Williams and company room to breathe and the Wolves might eventually start to make some progress.

In all honesty, Williams may have the most star power of any player in this draft. Love is a very good player -- an All-Star. But I'm not sure he's a true building block star that can carry you. Williams very well might be. He shot 57 percent from 3-point range last season, can play above the rim and score the ball. It's a question of his defense at the next level and a question of where he plays.

There was talk of Enes Kanter at No. 2 as well, but that would've been a copout "fit" pick. Not necessarily a bad selection, but when you're the Wolves, you can't afford to potentially miss out on a star player. Williams was the obvious choice, and the right one.

Now we've just got to see if they hang on to him.

Sporting news didn't like it however

2. Minnesota: F DERRICK WILLIAMS, 6-8, 241, Arizona, Soph.

The odd thing about the T-wolves’ choice of Williams is that they’ve basically chosen Michael Beasley with a better attitude. It’s easy to forget what an overwhelming talent Beasley was coming out of Kansas State, and he’s been an ordinary pro for a number of reasons -- one of which is that he’s not an A-level athlete for his position. And neither is Williams.

Yeah, it was a heck of a dunk against Duke, and he can drive the ball and has great strength, all of which indicates he’ll be a capable player. It’s hard not to think that with Enes Kanter available, Minnesota missed a chance to give itself a true presence in the center position.

In comment 12368993 Deej said:

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that KP will score only 8 points if given 27 minutes. That's 10.6/36 minutes. That's less scoring than a rookie Robin Lopez. That's really fucking inept for a #4 overall pick whose calling card is being a silky 7'3 shooter.

Huh, I guess Dirk and Giannis turn out to be "really fucking inept".

In comment 12369022 giantsfan44ab said:

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In comment 12368993 Deej said: Quote: that KP will score only 8 points if given 27 minutes. That's 10.6/36 minutes. That's less scoring than a rookie Robin Lopez. That's really fucking inept for a #4 overall pick whose calling card is being a silky 7'3 shooter. Huh, I guess Dirk and Giannis turn out to be "really fucking inept".

Huh, I guess Dirk scored at a 10.6 points/36 minutes rate as a rookie. Oh, wait, no, he almost doubled that at 14.5 points per 36. You got me good!

And Giannis was pretty inept as a scorer as a rookie. He could hit a 3 ok. Look at his shooting by distance as a rookie though. Horrific from every distance between 3 feet and 3 points. Here is rookie Giannis vs. league average at every shooting distance:

0-3: .573 vs. .636
3-10: .171 vs. .390
10-16: .105 vs. .401
16-3P: .220 vs. .395
3P: .347 vs .360

8 points in 27 minutes is horrible. Just horrible.

It wa s a sloppy game as expected but Zinger looked good to me. His length was a factor on defense. He battled on the blocks. He pulled the trigger without hesitation on the perimeter. He got to the line and converted. He wasn't nearly as skinny as he appeared in some of his videos. I'm sure he's been working out hard and at his age his physique can thicken at a fast pace.

Definitely a very small sample but I'm as excited to see this guy develop as anyone we've had in decades.

Grant struggled some in the game but you have to like his length and aggressive style.

that I didn't include decimals probably should've indicated I was guesstimating more than anything else.

I'm sorry I did not run through the per 36 #s. I forgot how easily you get your panties in a bunch on these threads and have a need to argue every little aspect of any post you that slightly irks you and no one else.

You realize if I said something like he would average "9 points in 24 minutes" that would come up to be like 13.5 ppg.

Are you seriously that much of a bitch where you throw a tantrum when someone's projection was 1 point and 3 minutes off from your liking?

In comment 12369064 Deej said:

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In comment 12369022 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: Huh, I guess Dirk scored at a 10.6 points/36 minutes rate as a rookie. Oh, wait, no, he almost doubled that at 14.5 points per 36. You got me good!

And where are we at where 14.5 is almost double 10.6? That's like saying "the Knicks almost won the title in 2013".

from Zinger was when he rolled to the basket and went for a finger roll at the rim as the defender was arriving. You're 7'3"! Throw it down big man! He drew a foul but he can't be coming into the lane in the NBA with that soft shit. He needs to attack the rim and based on his highlight vids, I know he has it in him to flush it with authority.

So far his agility/length combination is as freakish as advertised. I was pretty impressed by his defensive presence. With RoLo and Zinger, the Knicks could potentially have two 7 footers in the starting lineup with 7'6" wingspans. That's insane length, especially since both of these guys should be plus PnR defenders. But I need to see more of KP on D before really being sold on him on that end, especially his strength.

I love how great of a person he seems to be. He's so much more likeable than some of the other elite Euro prospects were. Very nice and level-headed dude.

Only a few games in, but Mudiay vs. Russell was one of the big debates throughout the entire draft process and Russell eventually came out on top for the draft. But Mudiay looks A LOT better in their initial SL performances. It's only SL though.

you could have said "ok, so maybe 9 in 24". But instead you had a very snotty Dirk post, implying that OF COURSE you were right. And btw 8 in 27 should be pretty noticeable as a projection of a horrible offensive player.

Why are you posting on a sports message board if you are too much of a baby to have someone disagree with you, especially by marshaling facts? Why bother posting projections if you arent going to think them out and you're going to throw a temper tantrum if someone disagrees? Maybe you're not emotionally stable enough for the internet.

In comment 12369092 giantsfan44ab said:

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And where are we at where 14.5 is almost double 10.6? That's like saying "the Knicks almost won the title in 2013".

Sorry, was thinking 14.5 was almost double 8, which was an useless comp.

See what I did there? I admitted I was wrong. Without calling you a bitch.

In comment 12369100 Deej said:

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you could have said "ok, so maybe 9 in 24". But instead you had a very snotty Dirk post, implying that OF COURSE you were right. And btw 8 in 27 should be pretty noticeable as a projection of a horrible offensive player. Why are you posting on a sports message board if you are too much of a baby to have someone disagree with you, especially by marshaling facts? Why bother posting projections if you arent going to think them out and you're going to throw a temper tantrum if someone disagrees? Maybe you're not emotionally stable enough for the internet.

Not the one who started with the passive aggressive sarcasm with the "you got me there" quip. Was just responding in the same manner as you were.

It kind of surprised me that someone capable of typing words with a keyboard would consider the 1 point and 3 minutes a game to be the difference from a "HORRIBLE offensive player" to "in the ball park of how one of the greatest forwards of all time started his career".

But then I guess it should have been less surprising when said person thinks 14.5 is "nearly double" 10.5 ppg.

by saying:

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Huh, I guess Dirk and Giannis turn out to be "really fucking inept".

That's a pretty passive aggressive statement.

Look, this goes back to you projecting stats for a bunch of guys. I assumed that was to spark some sort of discussion. But I didnt realize that you would have been so touchy about someone saying that they think one of those guys would be over your guesstimated scoring rate. I guess your #s were both inexact AND sacrosanct.

In comment 12369094 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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Only a few games in, but Mudiay vs. Russell was one of the big debates throughout the entire draft process and Russell eventually came out on top for the draft. But Mudiay looks A LOT better in their initial SL performances. It's only SL though.

Aside from the stats, Mudiay just looks better attacking the rim with the ball in his hands and feeling confident on his shot off the dribble. It's even more surprising because people considered Mudiay more "raw" than Russell.

but Russell's bust potential is huge because of his athletic limitations. He looks like a JAG in summer league -- doesnt pop off the screen at all. Im pretty happy we got bailed out of that one.

In comment 12369112 Deej said:

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by saying: Quote: Huh, I guess Dirk and Giannis turn out to be "really fucking inept". That's a pretty passive aggressive statement. Look, this goes back to you projecting stats for a bunch of guys. I assumed that was to spark some sort of discussion. But I didnt realize that you would have been so touchy about someone saying that they think one of those guys would be over your guesstimated scoring rate. I guess your #s were both inexact AND sacrosanct.

I ran through a list of 10 guys in a span of 2 minutes, so I didn't think I would get berated for a projection of 8 ppg in 27 mpg with curse words for somehow thinking he would be a "fucking inept" offensive player.

I'm sorry I was wrong, I should've realized who was in the audience. (Hey, this admitting thing you've suggested is starting to work for me!).

Marc Stein ‏@ESPNSteinLine 2m2 minutes ago
ESPN sources say Mavs casting wide net in search for rim protection and that, I'm told, includes fresh look at one-time Mav Samuel Dalembert

right now looks like his passing. His absolute floor I think is Grevis Vasques. I don't think he will end up being that bad (not trying to imply Vaquez is a bad player, but he looks a lot closer to that than his ceiling, which was Ginobili/Harden/Brandon Roy).

In comment 12369141 Anakim said:

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Marc Stein ‏@ESPNSteinLine 2m2 minutes ago ESPN sources say Mavs casting wide net in search for rim protection and that, I'm told, includes fresh look at one-time Mav Samuel Dalembert

Wouldn't be surprised if we hear Emeka or Sanders is in play for them. I saw something about them being in talks with Javale Mcghee (LOL).

I saw one number in your projections that stuck out like a sore thumb and disagreed. Then in response you copped an attitude with your Dirk/Greek post. Then I gave you the same snotty attitude. And then you went all baby on this thread and made it personal.

Let me ask you -- why did you bother posting the projections if not to elicit responses? Was I only allowed to agree 100% with your admittedly poorly thought out projections? Because all I said was that I found it hard to believe that KP would score like Robin Lopez, and that scoring like Robin Lopez would be "really fucking inept for a #4 overall pick whose calling card is being a silky 7'3 shooter." For the life of me I dont understand the tantrum you threw in response to that, especially since you dont even defend your own projections.

In comment 12369155 Deej said:

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I saw one number in your projections that stuck out like a sore thumb and disagreed. Then in response you copped an attitude with your Dirk/Greek post. Then I gave you the same snotty attitude. And then you went all baby on this thread and made it personal. Let me ask you -- why did you bother posting the projections if not to elicit responses? Was I only allowed to agree 100% with your admittedly poorly thought out projections? Because all I said was that I found it hard to believe that KP would score like Robin Lopez, and that scoring like Robin Lopez would be "really fucking inept for a #4 overall pick whose calling card is being a silky 7'3 shooter." For the life of me I dont understand the tantrum you threw in response to that, especially since you dont even defend your own projections.

I didn't have a problem with the response, I had a problem with the attitude from your response. The very first reply you had to my post was:

"That's really fucking inept for a #4 overall pick whose calling card is being a silky 7'3 shooter."

I was irked by that harshness and I felt that was some sort of jab of how bad I thought KP was going to be from my projection on him.

If it wasn't, then there is nothing to see and we can carry on.

In comment 12369094 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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from Zinger was when he rolled to the basket and went for a finger roll at the rim as the defender was arriving. You're 7'3"! Throw it down big man! He drew a foul but he can't be coming into the lane in the NBA with that soft shit. He needs to attack the rim and based on his highlight vids, I know he has it in him to flush it with authority. So far his agility/length combination is as freakish as advertised. I was pretty impressed by his defensive presence. With RoLo and Zinger, the Knicks could potentially have two 7 footers in the starting lineup with 7'6" wingspans. That's insane length, especially since both of these guys should be plus PnR defenders. But I need to see more of KP on D before really being sold on him on that end, especially his strength. I love how great of a person he seems to be. He's so much more likeable than some of the other elite Euro prospects were. Very nice and level-headed dude. Only a few games in, but Mudiay vs. Russell was one of the big debates throughout the entire draft process and Russell eventually came out on top for the draft. But Mudiay looks A LOT better in their initial SL performances. It's only SL though.

He was to far away from the basket to dunk the ball..watch it again, if he went for the dunk he would of not even come close..

From everything i have read and saw he likes to dunk and has no problem finsihing with authority but on that play there was no way he was dunking the ball

hahaha.

Alright, sorry Deej, didn't mean to call you a bitch. You aren't a bitch.

my point was that 8 points in 27 minutes didnt make sense for an offense first player. I dont see KP getting 27 minutes if that is his scoring rate. IMO he's either going to be in the 13+ point/36 minutes range or he's gonna sit a lot more because he isnt ready.

I expect him to be in the 7-10 ppg range. I don't think he's going to get as many minutes as Russell, Okafor, KAT (and even some lower lottery picks like Turner). Maybe (and probably) he won't make an All-Rookie team, but those are pretty BS anyways and don't indicate too much going forward for the guys who do not make them.

I think he's going to have one of those years where he makes a drastic leap (like AD had a 7 ppg increase from year 1 to 2) rather than one of those guys that increases like 2 points a game each of their first few seasons.

but what do you guys think he averages at his peak PPG?

to be so he isn't considered a "bust" (which could depend more on how the guys picked after him perform)?

KP isn't a bust. I'd guess most lottery picks don't turn out to be even average NBA starters.

As for his peak... I'm high on KP especially because his release is so quick and his release point is already so high that as long as he becomes a 40% 3 pt shooter he's going to be a 18-20 ppg guy. Now the question is if he puts on enough strength that he can score a couple of baskets a game going to the rim or pushing off for a fadeaway. I'm obviously biased but I think he can. If so, I think he could eventually be a 23-25 ppg guy.

yea you're right, I just watched it on YouTube again. He was further out than I thought. I still wish he would've tried to initiate more contact go for an and-1 against the defender on that play instead of avoiding it with a weak finger roll.

Finishing near the rim is going to be a big part of what makes him successful in this league or not. It could be the difference between him shooting 43% and him shooting 48%. One of the things I'd look for in him during the rest of SL is if he shows more aggressiveness attacking the rim.

if he's a shot blocker with ok d and rebounding then you can live with him as a 13-15 point stretch big. If he is all offense, then he's a disappointment at anything below 17-18 ppg. Now a 15 point all offense Porz isnt a "bust" in the sense of no value, but it's an effective bust.

Maybe it's the homer in me, but barring injury I dont see how he totally bust out of the league if he can just do two things -- shoot 3s and stand there and be tall and alter shots. And he may be close to doing those things at an NBA level.

In comment 12369230 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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yea you're right, I just watched it on YouTube again. He was further out than I thought. I still wish he would've tried to initiate more contact go for an and-1 against the defender on that play instead of avoiding it with a weak finger roll. Finishing near the rim is going to be a big part of what makes him successful in this league or not. It could be the difference between him shooting 43% and him shooting 48%. One of the things I'd look for in him during the rest of SL is if he shows more aggressiveness attacking the rim.

Tonight will be interesting because he is going to go against two bangers tonight

In comment 12369233 Deej said:

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if he's a shot blocker with ok d and rebounding then you can live with him as a 13-15 point stretch big. If he is all offense, then he's a disappointment at anything below 17-18 ppg. Now a 15 point all offense Porz isnt a "bust" in the sense of no value, but it's an effective bust. Maybe it's the homer in me, but barring injury I dont see how he totally bust out of the league if he can just do two things -- shoot 3s and stand there and be tall and alter shots. And he may be close to doing those things at an NBA level.

Yeah I'm with you. If he's a major factor on the defensive end and hitting 3's at a well above average rate, he will be a plus on the floor even if he is just scoring like 14 ppg.

Just seeing his stroke, size and athleticism, I can see him being a better version of Ryan Anderson. An 18 ppg stretch big that provides rim protection would be the makings of an elite player.

comparison to be honest, other than their being tall, white, shooters.

If you add potential rim protection to Ryan Anderson, make him a more fluid athlete, add significantly more height, and give him a potential inside game then you're coming closer to the sort of player KP could become.

None of this says that KP becomes a better player than Ryan Anderson. Most lottery picks don't. I just don't think they're similar types of players. You have to add too many qualifiers for the comparison to hold.

maybe because the cross racial comparisons don't happen often but he looks / moves most like KG. KG had a very similar body type when he was drafted and definitely needed to add weight.

The big difference is KG definitely had more of a low post game whereas it's clear that KP has had a lot more 3P / curling around screen reps.

AB: 18.0 PPG -- 5.8 RPG -- .438 FG% -- .356 3P% -- .532 TS%
DN: 22.6 PPG -- 8.1 RPG -- .475 FG% -- .383 3P% -- .581 TS%

The average of those 2...

20.3 PPG -- 7.0 RPG -- .457 FG% -- .370 3P% -- .557 TS%

I think that's a fair estimate for KP's potential on offense. Maybe a little more boards. Combine that kind of offensive production with legitimately valuable defense, and you have yourself an All-Star.

In comment 12369308 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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AB: 18.0 PPG -- 5.8 RPG -- .438 FG% -- .356 3P% -- .532 TS% DN: 22.6 PPG -- 8.1 RPG -- .475 FG% -- .383 3P% -- .581 TS% The average of those 2... 20.3 PPG -- 7.0 RPG -- .457 FG% -- .370 3P% -- .557 TS% I think that's a fair estimate for KP's potential on offense. Maybe a little more boards. Combine that kind of offensive production with legitimately valuable defense, and you have yourself an All-Star.

Co-sign. Should average more blocks than either of those guys.

he moves really well for a 7 footer, but he still doesn't move like KG. Anthony Davis doesn't move like KG. KG was an insane athlete.

KG's name was floated around as a comp pre-draft. Indeed, the Sixers' site had Anthony Davis/Kevin Garnett listed as KP's "best case". The problem with the best case of KG, Dirk, Davis (!) etc is that those guy are just competitive animals. You can never really project a guy to be as good as KG because of that intangible element.

Interesting that the Sixers had his medium case as Okur. That's not a bad consolation prize. You could do a lot with Memhet Okur.
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probably not run by team scouting.

roving big man I've ever seen.

I think the split the diff between Bargnani (What a contemptible dog he is) and Dirk is fair. I hope KP's intangibles bring him much closer to the latter.

God I hate Andrea Bargnani.

Maybe pre-knee injury Ralph Sampson as a comp for KP? Similar size (7'3" vs 7'4", and Ralph's nickname wasn't Stick because of his muscular build), both very smooth and agile athletes for their size, neither are low-block bangers. Ralph didn't shoot threes, obviously, but then that wasn't something anyone asked big men to do back then. Not a perfect comp, but much closer than guys like KG.

In comment 12369263 Ash_3 said:

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comparison to be honest, other than their being tall, white, shooters. If you add potential rim protection to Ryan Anderson, make him a more fluid athlete, add significantly more height, and give him a potential inside game then you're coming closer to the sort of player KP could become. None of this says that KP becomes a better player than Ryan Anderson. Most lottery picks don't. I just don't think they're similar types of players. You have to add too many qualifiers for the comparison to hold.

My comp to Ryan Anderson was more in mode of scoring than type of athlete/size. Anderson has a somewhat overlooked inside game. He does struggle against better athletes but he has some face up moves.

I don't know if KP will get to that Dirk/KG level where you can dump him the ball and ask him to get you a basket. I mentioned Anderson because he will be moving tons off the ball, coming off screens, making timely cuts, etc. I think he will have a better inside game with his size helping him out with a turnaround J ala Lemarcus Aldridge.

of early Rik Smits in him too. Not the thickened up veteran Flying Dutchman. The 7'4 skinny move center. Except Smits wasnt taking outside shots early in his career.

In comment 12369398 Deej said:

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of early Rik Smits in him too. Not the thickened up veteran Flying Dutchman. The 7'4 skinny move center. Except Smits wasnt taking outside shots early in his career.

I've been thinking Rik Smits as well just in terms of size. And while Smits wasn't bombing from outside, I do seem to recall him operating quite bit from mid-range / foul line extended.

Smits had range to the elbow at least.

and Dirk never had the length or instincts on D to be a good shot blocker. KP has more "bounce" than even a young Dirk.

Obviously KP is bigger than KG and KG isn't the perfect comparison but the way KP moves on the court is more similar to KG IMO. The reason he's getting the comparison to Dirk is the 3 point shot (and the European thing) but he shares just as many similarities to KG's game as he does to Dirk.

In comment 12369317 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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he moves really well for a 7 footer, but he still doesn't move like KG. Anthony Davis doesn't move like KG. KG was an insane athlete.

Exactly. He's a very good athlete "for his size"(which weeds out a lot of people because there are very few his size & length), but not an overall great athlete. KG was.

I see KP's floor as a rich man's Detlef Schrempf.