The last two years demonstrated that Coughlin's teams will put in the effort even when they're terrible. However, injuries or not, I don't think the franchise is going to tolerate missing the playoffs for four years in a row.
think it's still a make or break year for TC. Let's see if Reese or Ross are in that as well. But I don't think Beatty or JPP buys TC another year. We always have players hurt so if that's the case TC keeps getting year after year. I think this is the make or break year for a lot of people.
Still win or else for Coughlin. We had some tough injuries during our SB years. Plaxico pretty well wrecked his knee in the shower just before the first game against New England, and we won anyway.
I think everyone from Reese on down is on notice this year.
Ideally, the folks running the organization should be judged on process more than results. The scope of factors that are outside the control of any one coach, GM, or other official simply dwarfs the scope of factors that they do influence.
That said, one cannot wholly disregard the gut-level impact of poor results. Fans are important stakeholders who don't have visibility to the team's internal processes, so results are nearly always first on their mind. The frustration that builds at seeing poor results and no serious change from management is a threat-- it can hurt the bottom-line and can seep into the organization's morale.
It's weird. He had a long series of bad drafts and did a shit job w the cap until it went up. Even now almost none of the players he did hit on in the draft are signed long term. OBJ was the pick of last years draft as far as value and production but not even Reese could have know he'd be as good as he was. OL has been a disaster since the last SB win. IMO if the team is sub 500 again. they have to make a change from both Reese and TC.
Are the Giants at the point where a heavily results-driven decisionmaking on the coaching staff is warranted? Is Mara's implied threat genuine, or a guessture of emotional empathy to the fanbase?
I don't really know the answer, but I suspect that part of it is wholly practical-- unless seriously pressed, they're not going to decide to replace Coughlin until and unless they are convinced that they can find a replacement who they think can be as-good or better. And that has almost nothing to do with the actual performance of the team.
we've had a few of these injury-riddled seasons recently. How many more seasons can a staff get a pass for? Doesn't help that the head coach is nearly 70, too.
the team does not make the playoffs AGAIN because two players other than your QB are hurt, then the hammer must fall directly onto Reese. No excuse for having a team be so poor in talent that they cannot overcome....
1. Beatty who hardly anyone thought was a better than average tackle last year. This year it is an "oh shit" moment? Why? We can't replace Beatty? We should have thought about that a bit more during the off season even before the draft.
2. JPP who many here were questioning his ability to return to form even before he blew himself up. Unfortunate that he was still the best we had on the D line.
So step back and think about this. Do we really have no shot because we essentially lost these two guys? The team must really suck.
"if the team shows some fight, then everyone should come back"? I mean, we hear that same line every. single. year.
I agree, it is getting a little old.
After 2013, it was about the crazy rash of injuries (which was legit to an extent).
After 2014, it was the injuries again at the same insane high rate as the season prior.
If after 2015, the injury rate again continues and helps produce another mediocre season, the organization (or anyone else) can't just keep sitting back and waiting for the one year with 90% and above health to finally evaluate the team and job performance.
As we have outlined, the Giants have had porous injury health relative compared to league average for 5 straight seasons. They have to play the hand they have.
The guy on the hot seat should be Reese, not Coughlin. Or at minimum they should be on the hot seat together.
Reese, who ran a very good draft for Accorsi, hired Ross to run the draft for him, and the drafts immediately went to shit and haven't really recovered. That's one reason why the overall talent on the team is so underwhelming.
Reese apparently has final control over who is on the 53 man roster (a significant problem IMHO, he's NOT the head coach, the guy who should be making those decisions) and has consistently hung on too long to guys who didn't produce. That's another reason why the overall talent on the team isn't highly regarded by anyone except some of the less objective fans.
Reese has let some pretty successful draftees walk away after their first contract with the G-men, or at least while they still had some value left. That means that they had to replace those guys in addition to trying to upgrade other positions. It's next to impossible to build a team by playing whack-a-mole like that. That's another reason why the overall talent on the team just isn't getting the job done.
Especially if we lose any more key players (which always seems like an inevitability), I'd hope for YES.
The reason being that-unless McAdoo or Spags takes over after TC-the whole team is going to probably have to turn over its systems AGAIN, which means yet another year or so of getting used to/learning new systems. If the Giants are serious about making another run with Eli at the helm, wouldn't doing that AGAIN at this point seem counterintuitive (especially if TC wants to stay)?
Last year they replaced the OC. This year they replaced the DC. Coughlin has already shown twice that he can win a championship. He's also shown a willingness to be flexible and reinvent himself as necessary to win. If this year is another disaster, than it is a question of talent and that lies at the feet of the GM.
You gotta have some horses to win. Yes, good coaching, and yes, a little luck always are a part of it, but there have to be enough key playmakers (not necessarily famous names, but guys who can get the job done) at important positions. If you take away some of those guys (left tackle and defensive end are pretty huge positions to lose), your chances have to be greatly diminished, especially with depth questions like we have.
TC is going into TRAINING CAMP with a diminished/thin/questionable offensive line, and a hugely who-knows-wtf-we-have on defense. I'd love to see him and his staff stick around for another year or two just so we can keep building and not have to worry about systematic changes, or changes in personnel.
You gotta have some horses to win. Yes, good coaching, and yes, a little luck always are a part of it, but there have to be enough key playmakers (not necessarily famous names, but guys who can get the job done) at important positions. If you take away some of those guys (left tackle and defensive end are pretty huge positions to lose), your chances have to be greatly diminished, especially with depth questions like we have.
We're going to have a ton of injuries every season. So, by that logic, the current staff would be here forever, which I'm sure some would be okay with *chuckle*
TC is going into TRAINING CAMP with a diminished/thin/questionable offensive line, and a hugely who-knows-wtf-we-have on defense. I'd love to see him and his staff stick around for another year or two just so we can keep building and not have to worry about systematic changes, or changes in personnel.
That said, either the HC goes or both GM and HC go. Unlikely that Giants lets Reese go and stick a new GM with a longstanding HC coming off of 4 non playoff seasons.
Yeah, that's true, but I'm primarily thinking about just having a system in place long enough for the team to get past the learning curve.
I kinda feel like starting over in a new system-AGAIN-would likely condemn us to another season or two of mediocrity, and I'd just as likely bank on building on the youth of the team (in an established system with seated coaches) and seeing (hopefully) developmental strides. I don't feel like a staff overhaul would fix much in the short term, whereas I feel like with the established staff (and a little luck) could yield more results in the near future.
would be annoying. That makes what happens this season even more interesting. I hope they put it all to rest and just have a good fucking season for the first time in awhile and make it all go away. But even if they do, it's still somewhat interesting though, just due to TC's age. I don't know, I guess we will see. *shrug*
They did so in 2014 after a horrid 2013. Progress and the needle pointing up is usually enough for Mara, but I don't believe he'll suffer anymore ugly seasons. It's time to see a stronger performing football team on the field.
... it'll come down to how competitive the team is. If the team is a dumpster fire, they'll clean house. If they show promise, the regime will return. I think Mara's a fair person and knows Reese/Coughlin can't control the team's "franchise player" blowing his hand up with fireworks.
It's insulting to every other player on the squad and to the staff to even think that when we haven't even gotten to training camp or let alone playing regular season games.
I understand the love, but stop looking for any and every reason to give him a pass, as if he's a child we have to protect.
You holding the staff accountable for non-football injuries?
This team goes 5-11 and the house gets cleaned. This team goes 9-7 and misses the playoffs they'll be back.
No. I hold them responsible for the results of the past 3 seasons. I know better than anyone how many injuries this team has suffered, but that doesn't mean they get a pass every. single. year. like 1 or 2 people here willing to give them.
You holding the staff accountable for non-football injuries?
This team goes 5-11 and the house gets cleaned. This team goes 9-7 and misses the playoffs they'll be back.
No. I hold them responsible for the results of the past 3 seasons. I know better than anyone how many injuries this team has suffered, but that doesn't mean they get a pass every. single. year. like 1 or 2 people here willing to give them.
You know better than anyone? Any inside information you care to pass along?
You holding the staff accountable for non-football injuries?
This team goes 5-11 and the house gets cleaned. This team goes 9-7 and misses the playoffs they'll be back.
No. I hold them responsible for the results of the past 3 seasons. I know better than anyone how many injuries this team has suffered, but that doesn't mean they get a pass every. single. year. like 1 or 2 people here willing to give them.
You know better than anyone? Any inside information you care to pass along?
There are some people here who don't think the Giants injuries are a big deal. Just meant that I am not one of them. Way to sidestep the real discussion, though.
a promising 2nd year OC, a retread DC who looked pretty good last time around, and front office acknowledged rebuilding in progress. Unless the team totally cr*ps the bed, I don't see Coughlin being shown the door irrespective of JPP and Beatty. Who knows, a couple of breaks and it could be a winning season!
Another thought; new coaches get to pick their coordinators.
For job security, instead of winning games, maybe Coughlin should hire people to lunge at players' knees.
Nobody can estimate the impact of a new coach until you actually make the change, there is no sense arguing it. It's stupid to say TC should have a job for life no matter what, just as it is stupid to say let's not expect to contend until we have 10 All-Pro's on each side of the team and none of them can have a sprained ankle.
Sometimes a change has to be made, if we are to have another 5-11 season.
Even if it isn't his fault.
How much longer do you think he's going to coach any way?
Each off season the fans must be given hope that next
year is going to be a good year. We watch FA and draft
and fill ourself with hope.
If the Giants aren't in the playoff mix in December
someone will be thrown to the 'wolves'.
The owner never fires himself, so it means either
TC or Reese. I doubt both.
If it continues after next year, probably Reese will
be replaced.
There are issues that none of us are privy to, like
does the FO feel that TC is relating well to today's
players. Does the FO feel the TC has been dealt a very
poor hand by Reese and Ross.
The NFL is set up that almost all of the teams are
about equal. There are a few very good and very bad.
Most are in the middle. If the schedule is good, if
the team stays healthy and the team is lucky almost
any team can find their way to the playoffs.
Personally, I think the Giant's problem is that they
just don't have enough talent yet. It's improving,
but they need a few more Red Chip/Blue Chip players.
TC's problem the past few years has been his coordinators. Gilbride had some good years but got stale and predictable; Fewell was, IMO, never good with his 'read-and-react' approach. TC's problem? Keeping Fewell too long.
McAdoo has remedied the offensive problems and Spagnuolo was and is the best DC the Giants have had in a decade or more. The difference between a 10-6 and a 6-10 record can easily turn on factors that have little or nothing to do with the coaching.
imagine the next line of coaches. it will be 2-3 years and out... when 2 superbowls can't buy u enough credit nothing can. bunch of dunces who think this man can't coach. Not his fault half our draft picks in the last 5 years have been crippled with injuries or JR has ignored the o line. Seriously T2, chad jones, david wilson, nicks, prince, beatty. JPP, steve smith, etc etc injuries galore... but lets run him out of town with pitch forks... same idiots who burn up the WFAN lines.
The guy on the hot seat should be Reese, not Coughlin. Or at minimum they should be on the hot seat together.
Reese, who ran a very good draft for Accorsi, hired Ross to run the draft for him, and the drafts immediately went to shit and haven't really recovered. That's one reason why the overall talent on the team is so underwhelming.
Reese apparently has final control over who is on the 53 man roster (a significant problem IMHO, he's NOT the head coach, the guy who should be making those decisions) and has consistently hung on too long to guys who didn't produce. That's another reason why the overall talent on the team isn't highly regarded by anyone except some of the less objective fans.
Reese has let some pretty successful draftees walk away after their first contract with the G-men, or at least while they still had some value left. That means that they had to replace those guys in addition to trying to upgrade other positions. It's next to impossible to build a team by playing whack-a-mole like that. That's another reason why the overall talent on the team just isn't getting the job done.
I agree with this post 100%. Reese keeps complete stiffs way too long and fails to wrap up productive guys before they are FAs. I am thinking of Joseph and Manningham mostly. Constant recycling of certain positions with high picks has really hurt the Giants depth in other areas.
RE: Team needs to demonstrate progress, at the very least
They did so in 2014 after a horrid 2013. Progress and the needle pointing up is usually enough for Mara, but I don't believe he'll suffer anymore ugly seasons. It's time to see a stronger performing football team on the field.
This has been my thinking as well. If I had to put a number on it, I'd think eight wins is satisfactory, but will largely be eye test dependent, IMV.
I've thought 8-10 wins was a realistic goal going into the year.
Literally amazing to me how many people think success grows on
has proven they know how to be at least a competent GM. That includes Reese, Ross, Mara and whomever took over for Gettleman.
The whole lot should be fired.
Prince, JPP, obj, pugh, Andre Williams, kenard, Shane vreen, victor Cruz, Larry donnel, drc - this all falls under "proving nothing"? People want to complain we miss on 2nd and 3rd day picks (which everyone does) but the fact is we are among the leagues best in picking 1st round talent. We have added key FA's, found value in UDFA's Etc. what more do you want? Guess the nearly 10 year run we had of .500 seasons or better wasn't enough it should be 20 years straight - injuries or not, it is inexcusable to ever have a down year. Fire everybody!! Insanity. The fact that people still bash Eli on a Giants forum too says it all... Never satisfied
have in Tom Coughlin. Great person with a great football mind who is proven and tested. If he wants to stay active, director of Football or GM is certainly a possibility. Either would let him hire all the football people to bring this franchise back. i am for that if he wants to do it on the field as HC or otherwise.
have in Tom Coughlin. Great person with a great football mind who is proven and tested. If he wants to stay active, director of Football or GM is certainly a possibility. Either would let him hire all the football people to bring this franchise back. i am for that if he wants to do it on the field as HC or otherwise.
I don't know if they would do that and undercut someone like Reese or Ross. I actually like the idea of getting rid of Ross and having Reese do his GM duties as well as the Director of College Scouting duties. When Reese had to pull double duty, he had his best draft class in 2007. I actually wonder if Reese could do his previous job better than Ross can do his job. Reese did a hell of a job drafting when EA was GM. Give props to EA for seeing talent in Reese and taking him as a scout and bringing him into the corporate office, where he could climb the ladder.
TC is still the best person on this team at doing what this team pays him to do. And he's one of the greatest coaches of all time. It would be a mistake to let him go because injuries combines with a lack of key talent to keep us out o the playoffs.
TC is getting close to the end of his coaching days but it seems that
The final won/loss record is what counts.
That said, I think Spags will help brace him up more than some people think.
Lithium : 1:06 pm : link : reply
use the injury excuse for a 3rd consecutive year.
But Coughlin can't control this shit.
That said, one cannot wholly disregard the gut-level impact of poor results. Fans are important stakeholders who don't have visibility to the team's internal processes, so results are nearly always first on their mind. The frustration that builds at seeing poor results and no serious change from management is a threat-- it can hurt the bottom-line and can seep into the organization's morale.
I don't really know the answer, but I suspect that part of it is wholly practical-- unless seriously pressed, they're not going to decide to replace Coughlin until and unless they are convinced that they can find a replacement who they think can be as-good or better. And that has almost nothing to do with the actual performance of the team.
1. Beatty who hardly anyone thought was a better than average tackle last year. This year it is an "oh shit" moment? Why? We can't replace Beatty? We should have thought about that a bit more during the off season even before the draft.
2. JPP who many here were questioning his ability to return to form even before he blew himself up. Unfortunate that he was still the best we had on the D line.
So step back and think about this. Do we really have no shot because we essentially lost these two guys? The team must really suck.
I agree, it is getting a little old.
After 2013, it was about the crazy rash of injuries (which was legit to an extent).
After 2014, it was the injuries again at the same insane high rate as the season prior.
If after 2015, the injury rate again continues and helps produce another mediocre season, the organization (or anyone else) can't just keep sitting back and waiting for the one year with 90% and above health to finally evaluate the team and job performance.
As we have outlined, the Giants have had porous injury health relative compared to league average for 5 straight seasons. They have to play the hand they have.
Also, yes losing your best OL and best DL before the season starts has to impact that decision.
With one exception.
Reese, who ran a very good draft for Accorsi, hired Ross to run the draft for him, and the drafts immediately went to shit and haven't really recovered. That's one reason why the overall talent on the team is so underwhelming.
Reese apparently has final control over who is on the 53 man roster (a significant problem IMHO, he's NOT the head coach, the guy who should be making those decisions) and has consistently hung on too long to guys who didn't produce. That's another reason why the overall talent on the team isn't highly regarded by anyone except some of the less objective fans.
Reese has let some pretty successful draftees walk away after their first contract with the G-men, or at least while they still had some value left. That means that they had to replace those guys in addition to trying to upgrade other positions. It's next to impossible to build a team by playing whack-a-mole like that. That's another reason why the overall talent on the team just isn't getting the job done.
The reason being that-unless McAdoo or Spags takes over after TC-the whole team is going to probably have to turn over its systems AGAIN, which means yet another year or so of getting used to/learning new systems. If the Giants are serious about making another run with Eli at the helm, wouldn't doing that AGAIN at this point seem counterintuitive (especially if TC wants to stay)?
TC is going into TRAINING CAMP with a diminished/thin/questionable offensive line, and a hugely who-knows-wtf-we-have on defense. I'd love to see him and his staff stick around for another year or two just so we can keep building and not have to worry about systematic changes, or changes in personnel.
is the coaching staff asking for, and receiving the players they want?
is the coaching staff getting the results out of team assembled?
I'm a firm believer that the coaching staff has had a large say in the players assembled.
I'm a firm believer that more often than not, the team has underachieved.
W-L/make the playoffs is a simpleton's game. It's whether the coaching staff is getting the most out of the team.
And yes, Reese should be on the hotseat, too.
We're going to have a ton of injuries every season. So, by that logic, the current staff would be here forever, which I'm sure some would be okay with *chuckle*
TC is going into TRAINING CAMP with a diminished/thin/questionable offensive line, and a hugely who-knows-wtf-we-have on defense. I'd love to see him and his staff stick around for another year or two just so we can keep building and not have to worry about systematic changes, or changes in personnel.
I kinda feel like starting over in a new system-AGAIN-would likely condemn us to another season or two of mediocrity, and I'd just as likely bank on building on the youth of the team (in an established system with seated coaches) and seeing (hopefully) developmental strides. I don't feel like a staff overhaul would fix much in the short term, whereas I feel like with the established staff (and a little luck) could yield more results in the near future.
You holding the staff accountable for non-football injuries?
This team goes 5-11 and the house gets cleaned. This team goes 9-7 and misses the playoffs they'll be back.
I understand the love, but stop looking for any and every reason to give him a pass, as if he's a child we have to protect.
Is ownership ready to lose McAdoo to a team willing to take a HC chance on him?
stars? starters, yes. stars, no. next man up.
This
Quote:
How many more seasons can a staff get a pass for?
You holding the staff accountable for non-football injuries?
This team goes 5-11 and the house gets cleaned. This team goes 9-7 and misses the playoffs they'll be back.
No. I hold them responsible for the results of the past 3 seasons. I know better than anyone how many injuries this team has suffered, but that doesn't mean they get a pass every. single. year. like 1 or 2 people here willing to give them.
Quote:
In comment 12374926 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
How many more seasons can a staff get a pass for?
You holding the staff accountable for non-football injuries?
This team goes 5-11 and the house gets cleaned. This team goes 9-7 and misses the playoffs they'll be back.
No. I hold them responsible for the results of the past 3 seasons. I know better than anyone how many injuries this team has suffered, but that doesn't mean they get a pass every. single. year. like 1 or 2 people here willing to give them.
You know better than anyone? Any inside information you care to pass along?
Quote:
In comment 12375151 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 12374926 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
How many more seasons can a staff get a pass for?
You holding the staff accountable for non-football injuries?
This team goes 5-11 and the house gets cleaned. This team goes 9-7 and misses the playoffs they'll be back.
No. I hold them responsible for the results of the past 3 seasons. I know better than anyone how many injuries this team has suffered, but that doesn't mean they get a pass every. single. year. like 1 or 2 people here willing to give them.
You know better than anyone? Any inside information you care to pass along?
There are some people here who don't think the Giants injuries are a big deal. Just meant that I am not one of them. Way to sidestep the real discussion, though.
Nobody can estimate the impact of a new coach until you actually make the change, there is no sense arguing it. It's stupid to say TC should have a job for life no matter what, just as it is stupid to say let's not expect to contend until we have 10 All-Pro's on each side of the team and none of them can have a sprained ankle.
Sometimes a change has to be made, if we are to have another 5-11 season.
How much longer do you think he's going to coach any way?
Each off season the fans must be given hope that next
year is going to be a good year. We watch FA and draft
and fill ourself with hope.
If the Giants aren't in the playoff mix in December
someone will be thrown to the 'wolves'.
The owner never fires himself, so it means either
TC or Reese. I doubt both.
If it continues after next year, probably Reese will
be replaced.
There are issues that none of us are privy to, like
does the FO feel that TC is relating well to today's
players. Does the FO feel the TC has been dealt a very
poor hand by Reese and Ross.
The NFL is set up that almost all of the teams are
about equal. There are a few very good and very bad.
Most are in the middle. If the schedule is good, if
the team stays healthy and the team is lucky almost
any team can find their way to the playoffs.
Personally, I think the Giant's problem is that they
just don't have enough talent yet. It's improving,
but they need a few more Red Chip/Blue Chip players.
McAdoo has remedied the offensive problems and Spagnuolo was and is the best DC the Giants have had in a decade or more. The difference between a 10-6 and a 6-10 record can easily turn on factors that have little or nothing to do with the coaching.
Nice to see the Giants in the 'hunt' at the end of the
season.
I think your take on Gildbride & Perry F is accurate.
But, maybe the same affliction that did Gilbride in
is what's working against TC.
I'm TC age, I'm still 'working' but my energy level is
no where it once was. Aging is not our friend. :)
Adorable sarcasm. Perhaps coughlin's entire body of work plays a part ?
Reese, who ran a very good draft for Accorsi, hired Ross to run the draft for him, and the drafts immediately went to shit and haven't really recovered. That's one reason why the overall talent on the team is so underwhelming.
Reese apparently has final control over who is on the 53 man roster (a significant problem IMHO, he's NOT the head coach, the guy who should be making those decisions) and has consistently hung on too long to guys who didn't produce. That's another reason why the overall talent on the team isn't highly regarded by anyone except some of the less objective fans.
Reese has let some pretty successful draftees walk away after their first contract with the G-men, or at least while they still had some value left. That means that they had to replace those guys in addition to trying to upgrade other positions. It's next to impossible to build a team by playing whack-a-mole like that. That's another reason why the overall talent on the team just isn't getting the job done.
I agree with this post 100%. Reese keeps complete stiffs way too long and fails to wrap up productive guys before they are FAs. I am thinking of Joseph and Manningham mostly. Constant recycling of certain positions with high picks has really hurt the Giants depth in other areas.
This has been my thinking as well. If I had to put a number on it, I'd think eight wins is satisfactory, but will largely be eye test dependent, IMV.
I've thought 8-10 wins was a realistic goal going into the year.
So, yea, yippeee - let's all root for a 20 year wait. Bunch of fucking idiots around here. Seriously.
The whole lot should be fired.
Spitting in the face of truth.
I don't have the energy to shit all over your claims. Enjoy your day.
The whole lot should be fired.
Prince, JPP, obj, pugh, Andre Williams, kenard, Shane vreen, victor Cruz, Larry donnel, drc - this all falls under "proving nothing"? People want to complain we miss on 2nd and 3rd day picks (which everyone does) but the fact is we are among the leagues best in picking 1st round talent. We have added key FA's, found value in UDFA's Etc. what more do you want? Guess the nearly 10 year run we had of .500 seasons or better wasn't enough it should be 20 years straight - injuries or not, it is inexcusable to ever have a down year. Fire everybody!! Insanity. The fact that people still bash Eli on a Giants forum too says it all... Never satisfied
I don't know if they would do that and undercut someone like Reese or Ross. I actually like the idea of getting rid of Ross and having Reese do his GM duties as well as the Director of College Scouting duties. When Reese had to pull double duty, he had his best draft class in 2007. I actually wonder if Reese could do his previous job better than Ross can do his job. Reese did a hell of a job drafting when EA was GM. Give props to EA for seeing talent in Reese and taking him as a scout and bringing him into the corporate office, where he could climb the ladder.
is the coaching staff asking for, and receiving the players they want?
is the coaching staff getting the results out of team assembled?
I'm a firm believer that the coaching staff has had a large say in the players assembled.
I'm a firm believer that more often than not, the team has underachieved.
W-L/make the playoffs is a simpleton's game. It's whether the coaching staff is getting the most out of the team.
And yes, Reese should be on the hotseat, too.