Eli Manning finishes 12th in ESPN QB rankings

If the line protects better, and the receivers stay healthy he should be poised for one of his best seasons.

but really who cares.

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"I've seen him play some bad football," a head coach said. "Based on this scale, to keep it consistent, I think you have to give him a 2. The guy can go win a championship, but if we are talking quarterback evaluation, a 1 can go win it for you every week. Eli has been a 1 the right time of year."

IMO, the tier divisions are solid, but the rankings within the tiers are pretty arbitrary. I like how the divide between tier 2 and tier 3 makes a very clear "Above this line, your team might have a shot of winning it all; below it, they do not."

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Who knew #kevingilbride

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In comment 12380328 Greg from LI said:

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Brett F. for me has that title. In the article they call Eli an interception machine. If that's the case, what the fuck is Brett F.? But then again, we call him a "gun slinger" instead. Sounds better I guess.

But I do agree with the tier rankings.

If the OL is adequate, this offense can be scary good. And Eli will be the captain of it.

In comment 12380314 Enoch said:

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Quote: "I've seen him play some bad football," a head coach said.

I've seen every QB in the NFL "play some bad football." Just an empty quote that says little.

He was a truly fantastic quarterback for a five season period from 1994 to 1998, winning the MVP three straight seasons from 1995-97 and a title in 1996. He was throwing for around 4000 yards and 35+ TDs ever year back when those numbers were rare, unlike today when half the league does it. And he kept his interceptions in check then, too - 176 TDs to 79 picks in those years.

The thing is, once he developed that reputation as truly great QB, it never changed over the years as his career waxed and waned. His performance grew much more uneven. He put up a few seasons here and there that were at least close to his prime years, but a lot of mediocre ones too, and he really started to throw bad picks at crucial times more and more.....yet it never really stuck as a criticism until very late in his career.

"Manning needs a combination of running game and defense to succeed. There is no shame in that, but it's what separates the best from the good enough."

the list (sans commentary) on reddit.

If you just look at the tier groupings, it's pretty solid.
Link - ( New Window )

in that playoff game, it would be the first thing media critics of him would bring up.

But with Brett, it's all about the gunslinger, Mississippi bred, Wranglers wearing dude image.

I'm still convinced Peter King writes his columns in a Favre jersey.

In comment 12380355 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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"Manning needs a combination of running game and defense to succeed. There is no shame in that, but it's what separates the best from the good enough."

Yeah, just like in 2011! Oh.....wait a minute.....

Ben Roethlisberger sure has achieved a lot without a defense, hasn't he? It's been such a struggle for him to overcome those, um, consistently top-10 ranked Steelers defenses.

In comment 12380354 Greg from LI said:

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He was a truly fantastic quarterback for a five season period from 1994 to 1998, winning the MVP three straight seasons from 1995-97 and a title in 1996. He was throwing for around 4000 yards and 35+ TDs ever year back when those numbers were rare, unlike today when half the league does it. And he kept his interceptions in check then, too - 176 TDs to 79 picks in those years. The thing is, once he developed that reputation as truly great QB, it never changed over the years as his career waxed and waned. His performance grew much more uneven. He put up a few seasons here and there that were at least close to his prime years, but a lot of mediocre ones too, and he really started to throw bad picks at crucial times more and more.....yet it never really stuck as a criticism until very late in his career.

He had bone headed decisions just like Eli has at times. Those resulted in INTs. The things he did he was able to do because of his strong arm, such as throw across his body to the opposite side of the field while headed in one direction.

But it's funny how they don't talk about INTs. He is the all time leader in INTs and led the league 3 times just like Eli. Yet Eli is an int machine and Brett F. is a gun slinger.

I couldn't stand Brett F has a QB. Most over rated QB.

But Russell Wilson and Drew Brees don't? Those golden years Brees had were behind the best offensive line in the NFL with 3 RBs that all ran for 4.5+ YPC and could demolish teams catching out of the backfield (Sproles, Thomas).

Again, I think it's because Favre established his reputation early in his career when he played at an MVP level for a five year period. Post 1998 Favre was nowhere near the QB that 1994-98 Favre was, but he was talked about as if he were the same guy.

I've long compared Eli to a poor man's Brett Favre in terms of decision making. But Favre shows fire, so the narrative is different.

I think Eli's 2011 was one of the most underrated seasons an athlete I've closely followed has ever had. Even here, some downplay how bad that OL was.

And I'm hardly one of the BBI Eli booster crew. He certainly has his warts, but I've never seen a quarterback carry a weak team as well as he did that season. The OL was a disaster. The running game was one of the worst in football. The defense sucked. He got the stuffings pounded out of him in San Francisco but just kept getting up and making plays.

In comment 12380332 AnishPatel said:

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In comment 12380328 Greg from LI said: Quote: . Brett F. for me has that title. In the article they call Eli an interception machine. If that's the case, what the fuck is Brett F.? But then again, we call him a "gun slinger" instead. Sounds better I guess.

Of all time? That was locked in by Joe Namath a long time ago. Not only over rated, but the biggest douche bag too.

Reading your posts over the years.

I get why Rodgers had to win MVP that year, but for Eli not to get tangible consideration was ridiculous. The team got better in the post-season, but Eli dragged that team to a positive record in the regular season.

if the team around him then was really that bad, that means they can't climb up on their high horse and just be "2 SBs! Just won one four years ago! Stop being ungrateful lesser fans!" when it comes to Reese and/or Coughlin too; there'd have to be a real criticism of at least of them, given how the team has so frequently whiffs on the playoffs now and that title is the only [really nice] bandaid.

Not getting into it again. There are certain people who grew up watching Joe Namath play and will not under any circumstances admit that his career as a whole wasn't overly impressive. He was a freakishly gifted athlete whose career was wrecked by injuries, but such is life. You can argue that he should have been one of the very best of all time, but since those injuries actually did happen, we'll never know.

Devon, that's a huge part of my Reese criticism. The OL has been a huge issue for at least four years now, and was in clear need of significant investment in 2009. 2011 fooled fans (and possibly management) into ignoring the value of a strong OL.

Namath play. But for me it was Brett F. If you threw shit on a wall and see what sticks you get his career. All time in attempts, means all time in completions, incompletions, TDs, INTs, yards, everything. The whole point in being a HOFer or amazing, is having all the good stats while limiting the bad stats like Ints. He has the all time record for everything.

It's amazing that Aaron Rogers turned out to be amazing. I was always curious to see what Brett F would have said if Rodgers sucked. Then wanting to go to the Vikings just to stick it to the Packers. He seems like a douche bag.

but here's what I do know...I can count on one hand the times I've said "well, they lost that one solely because of Eli" (Baltimore 04, Minnesota 07, a few more). I also know that as long as they're within 2 scores in the 4th quarter that Eli can pull it out. Add in the late game and post-season heroics and there's not a QB in the league not named Luck, that I'd trade him for.

To me, it seems like he's not graded with the same considerations that other QBs are. Look at that quote on Roethlisburger...talk about his lackluster D, limited options at receiver, etc. When have we ever seen an article on Eli that takes into account the recently poor OL? Or how he's spent much of his career in an offense that allows others mistakes to reflect poorly on him? IMO most people have had their mind made up about Eli since his rookie year, and they cherry pick stats and other things to support a position they already have rather than taking into account the entire body of work and forming an opinion.

It's news about nothing.

Is that the front office was spoiled by the means by which they assembled that great 2007 OL. Yes, Snee was a second round pick and McKenzie was a big-money free agent, but the other three were a Browns castoff, a UDFA who was pretty much left for dead after a horrific leg injury, and a 5th round pick. I've always suspected that Reese believed he could find quality offensive linemen to plug into the lineup without going after big FAs or using high draft picks, so they kept drafting mid-to-late round linemen and none of them panned out. Plus, when they did actually use high picks or free agents, the results were much more mixed than in the past - Beatty, Baas, Pugh.

In comment 12380355 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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"Manning needs a combination of running game and defense to succeed. There is no shame in that, but it's what separates the best from the good enough."

Kind of an ironic statement to say when they have Russell Wilson rated higher.

I think Big Ben is better than brees too.

Whatever - subjective lists are no big deal...two rings are.

So does Rodgers and Peyton and Brady and Montana and Marino and....

If Rodgers had a good defense he probably has 2-3 rings by now. And the packers org is as well run and oiled as any. It's just hard building a good all around team in the NFL even harder to sustain one.

In comment 12380396 BrettNYG10 said:

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I've long compared Eli to a poor man's Brett Favre in terms of decision making. But Favre shows fire, so the narrative is different. I think Eli's 2011 was one of the most underrated seasons an athlete I've closely followed has ever had. Even here, some downplay how bad that OL was.

That year was the NFL equivalent of a goalie standing on his head.

is a total joke. For the first nine years of his career, the Steelers were in the top ten for yards allowed every season and in the top ten for points allowed in seven seasons. In the other two, they were 11th and 12th in points allowed. They were in the top 5 of those categories 14 out of 18 times in those 9 seasons. So now, after over a decade, poor Ben has to deal with a mediocre defense. Boo hoo. Here are the Giants' defensive rankings in yardage and points allowed by year during Eli's career:

2004: 17th in points, 13th in yardage
2005: 14, 24
2006: 24, 25
2007: 17, 7
2008: 5, 5
2009: 30, 13
2010: 17, 7
2011: 25, 27
2012: 12, 31
2013: 18, 8
2014: 22, 29

For most of his career, the Giants have had weak defenses.

Baas's injury/mediocre performance really hurt.

In comment 12380442 Greg from LI said:

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Is that the front office was spoiled by the means by which they assembled that great 2007 OL. Yes, Snee was a second round pick and McKenzie was a big-money free agent, but the other three were a Browns castoff, a UDFA who was pretty much left for dead after a horrific leg injury, and a 5th round pick. I've always suspected that Reese believed he could find quality offensive linemen to plug into the lineup without going after big FAs or using high draft picks, so they kept drafting mid-to-late round linemen and none of them panned out. Plus, when they did actually use high picks or free agents, the results were much more mixed than in the past - Beatty, Baas, Pugh.

Agree 100%. I think they thought they'd be able to assemble an above average line the way they built the 07 line. Having guys like Diehl and O'Hara may have convinced them that they'd get similar results from guys like John Jerry, Mitch Petrus, or Eric Herman. Clearly not the case...

have pretty interesting careers so far statistically.

Favre: 508 TDs and 336 Ints in 10,169 attempts
Manning: 259 TDs and 185 Ints in 5,609 attempts

That's a 4.62% TD percentage for Eli and a 5.00% for Favre while both have thrown a 3.30% Int percentage.

Also Favre and Eli have thrown 7.09 and 7.06 yards per attempt respectively.

One can make the argument I guess that Favre played in a much less offensively focused NFL, but he did play in a much more modern system for most of his career unlike Eli.

The main difference, of course, was the fact that Favre's peak years were much better than Eli's (outside of 2011).

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Regardless though, it's just interesting to see how similar their stats were even though they're often placed in different stratospheres by fans and peers at times for how good they are.

that it's just not possible to develop an accurate and fair assement of an athlete without watching them play for a reasonable amount of time. To the box score scout that may see a few plays each week but has their opinion overwhelmingly skewed by statistical trends observed and wins/losses it is very easy to ignore context.

To the casual NFL fan Eli Manning remains a good quarterback who is chronically prone to turning the ball over and just happened to get hot at the right time, this while playing across from a dominant defensive line. To us fans who follow the Giants religiously we know as much to take into account the downfield aerial offense of Kevin Gilbride, the option-routes which produce turnovers, the poor offensive lines, the lack of a running game, the deterioration of the defense, and an oft-injured receiver corps.

Can Kaepernick operate within the pocket? Did Brian Hoyer morph into a good quarterback for eight games in Cleveland? Why would the Rams trade a rookie back that almost ran for 1000 yards behind a poor line? I'm sure in each of these fanbases the informed are shaking their heads at what they perceive to be our false perception of the situation.

But I wonder sometimes if he's too confident in his own abilities, because he seems to gamble on players that other teams don't seem to value particularly highly, and a lot of those gambles have failed. Baas is a good example. The contract the Giants gave him shocked a lot of people. The Niners didn't particularly want to keep him, and he wasn't exactly hotly pursued by the rest of the league. For whatever reason, Reese really liked him and believed he was a much better player than he actually was.

In a lot of ways, we've kind of had a perfect storm of missed talent evaluations and rotten luck. So many FA moves and draft picks have flopped, and so many of the ones that did work out well were ruined by catastrophic injuries.

• Tier 1 quarterbacks can carry their teams week after week and contend for championships without as much help.

• Tier 2 QBs are less consistent and need more help, but good enough to figure prominently into a championship equation.

• Tier 3 are quarterbacks who are good enough to start but need lots of support, making it tougher to contend at the highest level.

• Tier 4 is typically reserved for unproven starters or those who might not be expected to last in the lineup all season. Voters used the fifth tier sparingly.

Tier 5 had no explanation. But its a safe bet it is reserved for the worst of the worst.

So if you base it on that criteria, Eli I think is graded properly.

The order I believe was done on a point system based on the votes cast. For example, Brees got an overall score of 1.49, right in between the Tier 1 and 2 line.

Was truly elite. He played at a level in his prime that very few match. Eli has never come close to it.

I don't know why you put Ben in tier 1.

In comment 12380609 Carl in CT said:

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I don't know why you put Ben in tier 1.

I think I know where it's coming from thinking it over. It's not totally unfair.

I get why Eli would be in tier 2. But what the hell have the Matts (Stafford and Ryan) accomplished? And I no longer believe Brees is a tier 1, but a 2 at this point. JMHO...

in anything BSPN says regarding the New York Giants. I do not read anything that they put out there. They never stop coming up with ways to downgrade the team.

with 41 TD's, 18 INT's and 4800 yards in this offense. Vereen out of the backfield and OBJ are open all day. Add Randle, Cruz and TE play, someone will get single coverage. Running game will be 100 yards per game again while Eli will average 300 per game.

Anybody wants to go to war with Matt Ryan against me and Eli bring it on.

- Jerry Reese.

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"Manning needs a combination of running game and defense to succeed. There is no shame in that, but it's what separates the best from the good enough."

Eli won 2 SB's with a much weaker supporting cast in all 3 phases than any of the "Tier 1" guys..

BSPN at its finest..


And keep in mind a year ago at this time Raanan wrote an article saying he would trade Eli for Nick Foles...

In comment 12380821 dcp said:

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with 41 TD's, 18 INT's and 4800 yards in this offense. Vereen out of the backfield and OBJ are open all day. Add Randle, Cruz and TE play, someone will get single coverage. Running game will be 100 yards per game again while Eli will average 300 per game.

It will be his best year so far