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How Cruz plays in 2015 could determine if Randle is here...

Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/24/2015 12:12 am
long term.

If Cruz comes back anywhere near 100 percent, I can't see Randle wanting to come back here.

But if Cruz looks like permanently-damaged goods and Randle builds upon his 2014 finish with a good season, Giants may be able to make a pitch to Randle that he's the new #2 moving forward.

One of the interesting sub-plots of the season.
I get what you're saying...  
bradshaw44 : 7/24/2015 12:51 am : link
But Cruz is already paid. And he's more of a slot receiver. I think Randles future rests on him alone. If Cruz does well, it doesn't change our salary cap situation. If that makes sense.
I think my post was off based on your OP  
bradshaw44 : 7/24/2015 12:52 am : link
Enticing RR to stay if he plays well, probably does rest on Cruz performance.
bradshaw  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/24/2015 12:53 am : link
I don't think Randle sees himself as a #3 WR in the NFL. And he wants to be paid better than that.

Along a similar line, if Cruz is just a guy, I have a hard time seeing the Giants paying him $8 million in base salary in 2016.
Dare I say it  
Mike in Long Beach : 7/24/2015 12:53 am : link
because unfortunately there's really no other position currently on our team we can say this about... but I suppose it's a nice problem to have.
Don't know what the likelihood is for Cruz to re-injure that  
BlueLou : 7/24/2015 2:08 am : link
patellar tendon, but I still think re-signing Randle will have more to do with Randle than Cruz. Both his play, and his maturity re coming to meetings on time and whatever else he was benched for last year...

And of course in the end, it's always about the money, from the player's angle. With perhaps the exception of Cruz who really wanted to stay a Giant... mostly because he's home grown IMO, and smart enough to know he'd never have the same off-field opportunities as he has in the NY metro area.
NFL in the salary cap era  
Sneakers O'toole : 7/24/2015 2:21 am : link
dictates that you can't keep dangerous 3WR sets on the roster for very long unless you choose to draft strongly for them, and then you by definition draft weaker somewhere else. Just as if you allocate salary cap dollars at the position, you take away from somewhere else.

Parity is the league by design
You can't pay at a position  
Sneakers O'toole : 7/24/2015 2:33 am : link
or you can't draft at a position, relative to the rest of the league in the big picture, without weakening in another area. In the small picture, teams find their strategies. The Patriots pay Brady and a handfull, overwhelm with depth that they see as key role players as an example.

The Seahawks came as close as they came because they had a QB they could win with cheap, and had drafted towards Carrols's style of play, they did it with a plan and a plan that worked.

But the Seahawks won't hold together any better than any other NFL team. That's not how the modern NFL works.

Parity sucks!
It could be that we go in a totally different direction  
Ira : 7/24/2015 4:16 am : link
if Cruz doesn't play like a starter.
RE: It could be that we go in a totally different direction  
BlueLou : 7/24/2015 5:02 am : link
In comment 12383118 Ira said:
Quote:
if Cruz doesn't play like a starter.


What different direction? This team has invested boatloads, mostly through draft picks and then replacements for those picks when they got injured (career ending or severely diminishing ie SS and HN) or simply sucked (Barden, Jernigan) or just weren't deemed worth of continuation (MM). Ironically, Cruz the UDFA (if he bounces back) may be the only one earning a 2nd deal to his rookie contract! I'm betting Randle is a goner, if I had to bet, after 2015. Which leaves OBJ and the silly money it might take to re-sign/extend him.

Eli put his foot down about WR talent on the roster when we lost Plax, and though he's been quiet as a mouse since then, JR took notice and has continued to stock WRs, with the fantastic success of nabbing OBJ as the 3rd WR taken in his draft class.
One thing about RR noted before by many here is that he's  
BlueLou : 7/24/2015 5:08 am : link
very, very young for a guy running out his rookie deal. And knock on wood so far he hasn't been injured at all, and so far hasn't missed a game. With the Giants' luck with injuries, that's remarkable...

He blocks well IMO, and doesn't have a prima donna head. Watch how he cleared things out for OBJ last year on many OBJ highlight plays. I take Sean Ryan's words at face value that Reuben "gets it" in terms of the offense.
I don't know.......1, 2 or 3.....bottomline, RR is a starter......now,  
George from PA : 7/24/2015 5:49 am : link
How much do we offer? How much can the Giants alocate to WR?

How much will he think he is worth?

Plus cap is going way up........so everyone will have money.

Prince ; Eli, if not signed by then; JPP, if healthy, playing well and has his head on straight; will be priority over him.
Agree- if Cruz  
mrvax : 7/24/2015 7:25 am : link
plays as JAG, the Giants will likely try to get Randle signed as soon as they determine Cruz's play has taken a hit.

However, Cruz would have to be released at season's end and a lot of consideration will have to be given to a new slot receiver.
The Giants have done well with finding WRs  
robbieballs2003 : 7/24/2015 7:51 am : link
after the draft. Obviously Washington is raw but if he continues to develop then he'd be a great complement to Beckham. We have some guys on the roster that could step up this year including Randle.

I think JPP might have more of an impact on this decision from a Giants perspective. Do we keep JPP beyond this year? If not them that is a lot of open money. Do we swing for the fences in FA with that money? Do we resign our players like Prince? Do we try to go with a more even approach where we address multiple positions with a buy low approach hoping for a big return?

I didn't think we would resign Randle because if he has a great year then he would probably ask for more than we were going to offer. If he doesn't play well then we may just want to move on. There is that small window where he plays good but not great and others around the league view him as a player that just greatly benefited from Beckham and our style of offense so the interest is minimal.

But you bring up a good point. What if the Giants are desperate? Desperation can lead to bad decisions.
I think the Giants  
Emil : 7/24/2015 8:05 am : link
might be able to make the case to Randle that the team runs 3 WR sets a majority of the time, and he will in effect be the number 2 WR the majority of the time with Cruz in the slot. The approach could work if Cruz plays well, but is not fully returned to form.

I would love to see Cruz completely return to form, but I think even if Cruz surprises us all, the Giants will be cautious with Cruz early and limit his snaps. That being said, Cruz clearly appears to be ahead of schedule and he has done nothing but beat the odds since earning a jersey. Really want to see his story continue for many many years.
Can't pay a #3 receiver a ton  
Giants2012 : 7/24/2015 8:26 am : link
If Randle leaves b/c of Cruz, that's a good thing b/c that means Cruz is back and playing well.

Thing is, Cruz really is best as a slot guy, not an outside guy.  
Victor in CT : 7/24/2015 8:31 am : link
It's a dilemma, the cap makes it difficult to pay everyone, but if Cruz has a big year, odds are it's because of the damage he does in the slot in the 3 WR set. Randle might be better on the outside. And he's younger.
Sneakers  
fkap : 7/24/2015 8:35 am : link
more and more it's getting so that you pay a handful of players huge dollars, then hope you can get decent play out of the bulk of the players.

We're paying Eli, JPP (this year), Cromartie, Prince (now and into the future if we re-sign him), Cruz, Beatty (this year - who knows about next, but someone else will step up to the big dollar bin). OBJ looms big for the future, but that's a couple years down the road.

To be a solid team, you need to draft/find decent players. they don't need to be stars. they need to contribute. you can't spend 4 or 5 years hoping a Moss or a Jernigan or a (drawing a blank, the big guy we drafted high and held on to forever, think his name starts with a B) or a Robinson step up. they were all relatively low paid, but none of them did squat. you need low paid players who do something. You need to have a Hosley who isn't a liability. You need draft a RB to step up, so you don't have to spend FA dollars on one, or two. This is the area we've sucked at. We've excelled at having players like Randle who might or might not be good, but several years in we're still in the dark about which one it's going to be. We hit on a draft pick or two every year, but blow it on drafting meat and potato guys. And that's why this team has been (and I think will remain) an also ran team.
There's no reason for Randle not to flourish  
Curtis in VA : 7/24/2015 8:49 am : link
in an offense like this. This is a huge year for him. He's got a golden opportunity to set himself up financially for the rest of his life. I wish him the best, whether its here or somewhere else.
fkap: You're on the right track. The cap is the key.  
Ivan15 : 7/24/2015 8:54 am : link
If the Giants want to retain a high powered, pass-happy offense with Cruz, Beckham and Randle catching passes from Manning, they will have to keep cap numbers low at other positions - especially on defense.

That's why I won't be too upset regardless of what happens with JPP, especially after 2015. Rather than rely on a pass rush from one player for $15 million, the Giants will have to rely on an aggressive defensive scheme and be able to spread that money around for 3 players.
RE: Thing is, Cruz really is best as a slot guy, not an outside guy.  
Giants2012 : 7/24/2015 8:57 am : link
In comment 12383241 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
It's a dilemma, the cap makes it difficult to pay everyone, but if Cruz has a big year, odds are it's because of the damage he does in the slot in the 3 WR set. Randle might be better on the outside. And he's younger.


That's true yet it could be the dominant slot receiver (Cruz) which opens up Randle. (Of course, OBJ has so etching to do with other getting open too).
something  
Giants2012 : 7/24/2015 8:57 am : link
-tough to type lol
No one thought the Packers could keep both Nelson and Cobb.  
Klaatu : 7/24/2015 8:59 am : link
But they did. Never say never.
I don't  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/24/2015 9:04 am : link
think it's just a money thing either. Randle wants the ball. If you are in an offense that has Beckham and Cruz, your opportunities are more limited. He knows that.
Randle is in the Manningham positon  
Giants2012 : 7/24/2015 9:05 am : link
which could be a great thing for us fans this year.
RE: I don't  
ron mexico : 7/24/2015 9:07 am : link
In comment 12383291 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
think it's just a money thing either. Randle wants the ball. If you are in an offense that has Beckham and Cruz, your opportunities are more limited. He knows that.


I don't know. RR seems like a pretty laid back guy. If he is getting paid OK and happy with the work environment (for lack of a better term) I don't think he will care about not putting up the best stats possible

If Cruz bounces back,  
CT Charlie : 7/24/2015 9:17 am : link
Randle and his agent won't settle for #3 billing and pay.

It is determined by how BOTH play......  
Doomster : 7/24/2015 9:56 am : link
Let's face it, if Cruz is injured again, or doesn't perform at the level expected of him, he either takes a pay cut or is released next season....

"But if Cruz looks like permanently-damaged goods and Randle builds upon his 2014 finish with a good season, Giants may be able to make a pitch to Randle that he's the new #2 moving forward.

If Randle does have a big year, you will have to pay through the nose to keep him, because he will be looking for big bucks if he has a big year....

Then there is the other side of the coin, he has an average RR year....stats are ok, but comes up short when counted on....how much do you pay him?

It's quite possible, neither is here next year, in a worst case scenario....

Some on this board look at this offense as awesome, with out playing.....if Cruz's knee does not come back....if RR pulls a "Jernigan", then teams concentrate on OBj.....and if one of the lesser WR's does not step up and take the slack, this offense is in trouble.....

I did not like the way Cruz performed last year before the injury....the injury will not make him better.....Randle has to show that, the end of the season against lesser teams, is something he can build on...it's a contract year for him....you would think you will see the best of RR....that remains to be seen.....

I like Parker.....not sold on Harris until he shows he can do it....the rest are just wannabees....

Randle  
Rong5611 : 7/24/2015 10:46 am : link
Is he a UFA next year or a RFA?
Randle still has to prove  
JonC : 7/24/2015 10:52 am : link
the light has stayed on, and that his play in games like the Rams wasn't an anomaly. Cruz also has to prove he's back, or at least on a visible ascent that puts the knee injury out of mind.

Similar to JPP, if he plays big and wants open market dollars then you're probably forced to choose between RR and Cruz. But, this is why I'd said all pre-draft that WR would figure to be target in the first three rounds, and it was. Will be again next year.

RE: Randle  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/24/2015 10:55 am : link
In comment 12383571 Rong5611 said:
Quote:
Is he a UFA next year or a RFA?


UFA...draft pick contracts are basically 4-year deals now. The only ones who really become RFA's are undrafted players.
A lot of things depend on Cruz and Washington  
GiantsFan84 : 7/24/2015 11:33 am : link
First, with regards to Cruz and money. I think the team will give him 2 years to show he can get back to form. If he is just a guy this year, I think they will reach an agreement on a pay cut for the following season where he can earn everything back with incentives. I don't think this will be overly contentious. I actually expect this to be the most likely outcome of this situation. And in this scenario it will free up money for Randle after this season and also free up targets for Randle during this season. Under this scenario I can see Randle returning.

Everyone will lose targets this year due to Cruz and also Vereen and hopefully a better run game. At the same time I expect the 3 WR set to be our most frequently used offense and I expect a dynamic offense with the talent on this team (assuming the o-line doesn't implode). I still don't think it's out of the question that Randle can catch 75-80 balls this year (that's 5 catches per game) for close to 1,000 yards.

If Cruz plays well and there is no pay-cut, Randle being here will depend on his asking price and Washington's development. If Washington develops into a good WR there is no need for Randle and his money can be allocated elsewhere. But if he doesn't I don't think this team can afford to let Randle go. This team will need its draft picks for the defense and OL next year, and I can't imagine they would want to reinvest a high pick in a WR again.
CW is still only a UDFA  
JonC : 7/24/2015 11:37 am : link
NYG is unlikely to count on him for much of anything other than #6 on the depth chart unless he suddenly starts to play at a level he hasn't demonstrated before. Be careful to not put too much emphasis on some pre-season action against other low depth DBs, he's a big project who openly questioned how he was being used late last season.

WR has been one of the bloodlines of the team's success under TC/JR. They were going to draft Lockett and Strong in the 3rd round before both were picked, and they went OO.
With OB, Cruz, and Vereen all presumably healthy  
JonC : 7/24/2015 11:39 am : link
RR will have a tough time getting that many targets, which is a good thing for NYG when it's time to talk new contract. Unless Cruz isn't quite ready, of course.

Oh believe me fkap  
Sneakers O'toole : 7/24/2015 11:52 am : link
I understand. And that is what has made the patriots so potent over the years and why I referenced them. They pay a handful, play games in the draft that most don't understand, and then flood their roster with role players Belichick knows he can use.

It's why I always laugh when people talk about their drafts, or how many draft picks remain (the ones they don't resign).

Those that make those arguments are not paying attention to the way the Patriots conduct football. They use "fan" metrics and ideas

That isn't to say that the Giants should copy it, but given the context of the thread and the 3wr dilema it's worth note.

Parity era football is parity era football. Not a good thing in my opinion, but it is what it is

Our Offense  
Rong5611 : 7/24/2015 12:07 pm : link
We could have a very explosive offense this year.

Eli - Contract year. Knows the offense, will build on his success from last year. Healthy going into the season. Better arm strength.

A lot of weapons for Eli this year - OBJ, Cruz (assuming he's healthy), Randle, Donnell, Vereen. Parker is a solid WR and Washington could be a player too.

Running game should improve. Jennings is solid, hopefully he's healthy now. Andre Williams looks like a brick sh**house (did anyone see the photo of him on Facebook). I mentioned Vereen before, he's a player. He can run too.

If the OL gives us solid play, we could be scary.

And, they need to. Our defense took a hit with the probable loss of JPP's effectiveness and we have no proven safeties. I don't have high hopes on that side of the ball. We need to score a lot of points to overcome it.
I still think there's plenty more to see from Randle  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/24/2015 12:38 pm : link
Sometimes he looks like a natural out there.

I think Randle is probably fairly easily replaced  
Go Terps : 7/24/2015 12:44 pm : link
There are guys like him all over the NFL. If he's looking to get paid I'd let someone else do it.

Everyone is throwing the ball in college now, which means more wide receivers with NFL skill sets.

RE: I think Randle is probably fairly easily replaced  
Mason : 7/24/2015 12:49 pm : link
In comment 12383910 Go Terps said:
Quote:
There are guys like him all over the NFL. If he's looking to get paid I'd let someone else do it.

Everyone is throwing the ball in college now, which means more wide receivers with NFL skill sets.


Go back and check RR numbers and compare them to his draft class and the following year. You'll may be surprise.
RE: RE: I think Randle is probably fairly easily replaced  
Go Terps : 7/24/2015 12:55 pm : link
In comment 12383925 Mason said:
Quote:
In comment 12383910 Go Terps said:


Quote:


There are guys like him all over the NFL. If he's looking to get paid I'd let someone else do it.

Everyone is throwing the ball in college now, which means more wide receivers with NFL skill sets.




Go back and check RR numbers and compare them to his draft class and the following year. You'll may be surprise.


That exercise wouldn't tell me anything about what his future as a Giant should look like. Our replacement options aren't limited to guys in his draft class. He's a nice enough player, but I think we can upgrade there.
Everybody's throwing the ball, but not everybody  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/24/2015 1:04 pm : link
is running pro-style offenses. That is a factor in readiness to compete at the NFL level.

Interested to see what Kevin White does as a rookie.
That's Patrick Peterson he's beaten in TTH's gif, the NFL best CB.  
BlueLou : 7/24/2015 6:33 pm : link
One of the best anyway, and the most athletic. And a former team mate of RR's at LSU, and top 5 draft pick.

Pro Bowler every year he's been in the league, ALL PRO twice in 4 seasons.
Randle has to have a much better year as a consistent contributor  
Torrag : 7/24/2015 10:37 pm : link
If he doesn't the Giants wouldn't want him back except on a bargain contract. He needs to worry about himself and his game. Not how Victor Cruz return impacts his situation.

They don't play the same position anyway. Cruz needs to go to the slot and stay there. OBJ and RR can work the perimeter. That's the best use of their athletic abilities.
RE: bradshaw  
SGMen : 7/25/2015 12:23 am : link
In comment 12383094 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I don't think Randle sees himself as a #3 WR in the NFL. And he wants to be paid better than that.

Along a similar line, if Cruz is just a guy, I have a hard time seeing the Giants paying him $8 million in base salary in 2016.
While I am an optimist in general, at the same time I am a realist. I just don't see Cruz being the Cruz of old. Damaged wheels take time to heal. Unless he plays lights out the second half of the season along with Beckham he isn't seeing $8 million next year.

What helps Cruz is that he is a true fan favorite and a bona-fide slot receiver who will get open short if healthy.

We'll know a lot more in the next few weeks. I pray for the best; hope for the best; and let the games determine the rest.
Or said another way...  
John in No Cal : 7/25/2015 9:46 pm : link
How Randle plays will determine if Cruz is here.
Not sure I agree with the original premise...  
Dan in the Springs : 7/25/2015 10:12 pm : link
although there is merit to the idea that the more looks Cruz gets the more Randle will want to look elsewhere for opportunity.

But here's the problem with the premise. It presumes that the Giants will want to keep Cruz regardless of what Randle does, or that Randle will want to leave regardless of what the Giants and the market dictates.

IMO, Randle can prove himself as a valuable #3 on this team this year. If he manages 60+ receptions and/or gets 800+ yards then the Giants will have to decide if they would rather keep Cruz or give his money plus to Randle. My guess is that they would go with Randle, provided RR proves himself to the team. He's younger and healthier, and can be expected to perform longer on the Giants than elsewhere.

Now who else out there will value him higher than that? The likelihood is that any performance he gives will be discounted by others due to his playing alongside a couple of top WR. Especially if Cruz returns to a high level (90+ catches, 1100+yds) of play.

If Randle plays well the Giants might part ways with Cruz anyway and offer Randle his money.

Perhaps the bigger influence on Randle's return is how the other receivers play.
While it would be great if Randle develops into a  
Jimmy Googs : 7/26/2015 9:09 am : link
more consistent threat on the outside, there are still plenty of questions if that will be the case.

And do not overstate his numbers whereas he put up 1/3 of his season's total yards and touchdowns during shoot-outs with teams already out of playoff contention in last two weeks.

And Eli having plenty of targets this season cuts both ways relative to Randle's chances of being productive, so its up to him whether he takes advantage.
If another team is willing to pay Randle like a #1 WR, he'll leave.  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/27/2015 8:13 am : link
I think the Giants can compete for his services as a good #2, if they are inclined to do so. And with Eli still in his prime, they just might pay up to keep his receiving corps together for a final run.

Keep in mind that Randle will still be just 24 when his rookie contract expires. He's positioned to get paid at least twice if he stays healthy and continues to improve. That won't necessarily affect his decision. It just speaks to his financial upside.
My starting premise is different than most  
Bob in Newburgh : 7/27/2015 10:30 am : link
I believe that a fully developed, healthy RR is apt to be a better and more valuable WR than VC, even if VC is 100%. Superb intangibles coupled with adequate physical gifts means there is a ceiling for VC which is lower than RR's.

Based on this, I believe how RR performs in 2015 will be the most critical factor followed by more knowledge acquired relating to the ultimate durability of ODB.
Bob: At this point in their careers, I tend to agree.  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/27/2015 10:59 am : link
RR just turned 24. VC will turn 29 this fall, and he's coming off major knee surgery. Although their respective draft positions are now moot (especially considering the circumstances surrounding VC's college career), it's fair to say that Randle came into the League with enough physical ability to reach the same stature as Cruz. Obviously, their skill sets are quite different, but I don't think anyone would contend that Cruz is in a different class, or even that he was, coming out of UMass.

Cruz's 2011 season set a completely unreasonable benchmark for what he is and what he can be. He was unlikely to replicate that incredible run of big plays under the best of circumstances, even with Beckham emerging to fill the shoes of Hakeem Nicks. If you take the 2012-2014 (pre-injury) Cruz, then hobble him with a torn patellar tendon, you have a player who, while still potentially very valuable, could very well have a lower ceiling than Randle.
BBB: In trying to limit length - I probably created confusion  
Bob in Newburgh : 7/27/2015 3:02 pm : link
We are in basic agreement except that I believe Cruz always had a limited ceiling with his intangibles being special, his hands less than special and his physical characteristics just adequate - a dime a dozen in the NFL.

Randle is limited only by lack of special long speed. He fcould be Larry Fitzgerald if he worked his ass of, but a more realistic scenario is a poor man's LF.
Half of you have been on Randle's back since he got drafted  
HomerJones45 : 7/27/2015 3:31 pm : link
He had 19 catches, then 41 and last year 71 and nearly 1000 yards. He's doubled his production every year. Oh yeah, he just turned 24 years old, and hasn't missed a game in 3 years. He's not your preseason hero from Podunk U who gets you all excited reading camp reports and then frigging disappears.

You want to run GB's offense then you need targets- good targets. Pay him- there will be lots of competition for his services.
Bob: To some extent it becomes a matter of semantics...  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/27/2015 8:10 pm : link
...which attributes are "tangible" and which are "intangible." Cruz and Randle are both bright young men. VC's ability to translate his intelligence more fully to the football field is an integral part of his makeup. Whether it's tangible or intangible is kind of moot.

In any case, I think you might be selling VC's native gifts a bit short. His Pro Day measurables were quite good overall, and his vertical was outstanding. He does drop more passes than you'd like, but I think that's as much a function of his play-making instincts as it is a fundamental problem with his hands. And his field vision - the attribute that made him a star - is top-tier; or at least it was a few years ago.
RE: BBB: In trying to limit length - I probably created confusion  
BlueLou : 7/29/2015 7:42 pm : link
In comment 12387673 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
We are in basic agreement except that I believe Cruz always had a limited ceiling with his intangibles being special, his hands less than special and his physical characteristics just adequate - a dime a dozen in the NFL....


WUT? I think you got confused and said "Cruz" when you meant "Steve Smith." Because Cruz is very clearly not a "dime a dozen" physical talent in the NFL. His burst and RAC are in fact exceptional.
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