NFT: Cowherd - baseball must be simple because Dominicans play it

and his overall point is 100% accurate.

fuck him. That said, this is much ado about not very much.

I went into this thinking "fuck him" and then read the excerpt. It's not wildly off base.

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that many on BBI don't like the guy even though he often talks highly about the Giants organization and Eli while most national media guys wont say anything positive about the club.

not what's in your title. I don't care personally, but they are wildly different. It's like taking a quote from a player but not including the question that was asked.

So yeah, I don't really see what's wrong with it. I know what he's getting it but it doesn't sound malicious like the title does.

Take one line and run with it while ignoring the message.

He says he doesn't buy into the notion that baseball is complex. His supporting evidence is that a third of players are from the Dominican (which isn't close to true regardless, but expecting any sort of accuracy from Colin Cowherd is like expecting a pig to keep a tidy house), which of course is not a country known for it's academic achievement. Is this accurate?

that a "thinking man's sport" features a significant representation of kids who stopped attending school at age 14 to focus on baseball he probably has a point. Basketball and football certainly have their share of meatheads, but ironically hockey and baseball are the only sports in which a significant portion of the participants at the professional level were diverted from education to the the sport before the end of high school (though juniors doesn't deprive the kids of a HS education).

But Cowherd comes across like a prick in saying it because Cowherd is a prick.

because it's been widely adopted by non-thinking men, exemplified by the dominican republic. baseball is simpler than it is complex because simple people makeup much of the game. that's what he's saying.

...I am sympathetic to the point of view that baseball fans---perhaps out of some level of hyper-defensiveness over the games utterly languid pace---tend to characterize the game as very "cerebral" and "complex" and tell those of us that do not particularly enjoy the game that it is because we don't understand the nuance and beauty of it all.

So, if is point is that football for instance is almost infinitely more complex, he is correct.

But, to be clear, a lot of people from the south play football and they are not exactly know for their academic achievement.

he makes an overall point that you'd likely agree with and then uses a cutting example at someone's expense. so very typical cowherd.

I'm shocked.

The vast majority of college football players do not get a legitimate college education (hell, at UNC they didn't even take actual classes), nor does the lack of formal schooling indicate anything about an individual's cognitive abilities.

Greg's right, this is a racist remark - and his paraphrasing/title was fine.

Baseball's still stupid, though.

In comment 12383394 BeerFridge said:

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I'm shocked.

what the fuck does that mean

His point was that baseball is a game of talent more than a cerebral challenge. He cited the fact that only 4% of players have a college degree and many of them don't speak English and yet perform at a high level. He said imagine trying to play football if you don't speak English. If you don't like Cowherd, you can fit this nicely into your confirmational bias. I happen to think he was right but just made an unfortunate choice in pointing out that so many players are from a disadvantaged educational background and yet can be stars because of their athletic ability

Which has always been weak and condescending. Take a guy like Manny Ramirez, who was mocked throughout his career for being a moron (with some legitimate justification, of course). He was always lauded for being such a natural hitter, right? Despite acting like a dolt in many ways through his career, however, Manny was a great hitter because he worked his ass off at it from his early teens onward. When he was in high school he was already videotaping himself taking hundreds of batting practice cuts daily, then spending hours analyzing his swing. He did this on his own, without any coach prompting him. He might not be a potential Rhodes scholar but he took his craft VERY seriously and honed it over the course of two decades of hard work.

Well, he took the craft of hitting seriously, anyway. Kind of like Ted Williams - early in the Splinter's career, his manager Joe Cronin spotted him in the outfield during a game taking imaginary swings between pitches. Cronin grabbed a glove, waved it at him from the dugout and yelled "Goddammit, practice THIS!!!"

... because the game is just not that complex.

In comment 12383403 Jints in Carolina said:

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In comment 12383394 BeerFridge said: Quote: I'm shocked. what the fuck does that mean

It means that it's pretty common.

In comment 12383403 Jints in Carolina said:

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In comment 12383394 BeerFridge said: Quote: I'm shocked. what the fuck does that mean

When you find out let me know.

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So not speaking English is indicative of simplicity?

And, again, give me a break with the college bullshit. First of all, a substantial number of NFL players never got their degree in the first place before turning pro. They get intensive tutoring, which can border into having someone else be paid to do all their work. They have bullshit classes and even majors tailored for them to be less rigorous. And, like I said, UNC even fashioned a system of completely fake classes for athletes.

Dexter Manley played four years of college football and came out of it as a functionally illiterate man.

In comment 12383394 BeerFridge said:

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I'm shocked.

Oh the horror! And what if a black guy said it?

In comment 12383403 Jints in Carolina said:

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In comment 12383394 BeerFridge said: Quote: I'm shocked. what the fuck does that mean

It means he's either a liberal puke filled with white guilt or he's black.

the point he was making is that there are a number of things that can allow you to succeed in baseball, talent, athleticism, hard work, etc. because it is a game of athletic ability with relatively little complexity. But, I have no doubt many people will see racism. It doesn't take much.

In comment 12383437 BeerFridge said:

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In comment 12383403 Jints in Carolina said: Quote: In comment 12383394 BeerFridge said: Quote: I'm shocked. what the fuck does that mean It means that it's pretty common.

what an ignorant thing to say.

In comment 12383439 OC2.0 said:

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In comment 12383403 Jints in Carolina said: Quote: In comment 12383394 BeerFridge said: Quote: I'm shocked. what the fuck does that mean When you find out let me know.

I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

In comment 12383446 Greg from LI said:

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So not speaking English is indicative of simplicity? And, again, give me a break with the college bullshit. First of all, a substantial number of NFL players never got their degree in the first place before turning pro. They get intensive tutoring, which can border into having someone else be paid to do all their work. They have bullshit classes and even majors tailored for them to be less rigorous. And, like I said, UNC even fashioned a system of completely fake classes for athletes. Dexter Manley played four years of college football and came out of it as a functionally illiterate man.

yeah but Brad Benson owned his ass every time! :)

In comment 12383446 Greg from LI said:
[quote] So not speaking English is indicative of simplicity?

Seriously?! That's what you got out of that? Ok, that's my cue to bow out

But yeah, that reasoning was unbelievably bad judgment. I'm actually with Greg on this one. He insinuated an entire culture picked up on a sport because they don't need to be smart to play it.

And it was pretty dumb from a logical standpoint, too. The Japanese love baseball, too. Are they unintelligent? Are we?

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He cited the fact that only 4% of players have a college degree and many of them don't speak English and yet perform at a high level.

What exactly is the point of talking about who speaks English? What does that have to do with anything??

But if you can't recognize the complex mental game involved in the contest between pitchers and hitters, then you're either being disingenuous or you're not very bright.

...it would be cool to watch a football game where the quarterback ONLY spoke English and the other 10 guys only spoke Spanish.

That would blow the XFL out of the water.

In comment 12383457 Jints in Carolina said:

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In comment 12383437 BeerFridge said: Quote: In comment 12383403 Jints in Carolina said: Quote: In comment 12383394 BeerFridge said: Quote: I'm shocked. what the fuck does that mean It means that it's pretty common. what an ignorant thing to say.

Haha. Ok then.

yes, it's ignorant.

In comment 12383470 Greg from LI said:

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But if you can't recognize the complex mental game involved in the contest between pitchers and hitters, then you're either being disingenuous or you're not very bright.

The game play is obviously simple.

As for the mental games? Meh. I agree with the idea that it's a "heady" game, but your presumed assertion that it requires any significant intelligence to take part in the mental games is something I disagree with. By calling it a mental game, I'm assuming you're referring to matters of instinct. What's he going to throw?" Should I step out of the box? The ability to pick up on these things... are they "intelligent?" I think it's more instinct and feel... something dogs have. It's not something that makes me think baseball requires substantial intellect to learn and play.

Now if you wanted to take the angle that batters and pitchers prepare themselves and research their opponents' tendencies in a number of situations, then maybe you're onto something.

In comment 12383465 Mike in Long Beach said:

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But yeah, that reasoning was unbelievably bad judgment. I'm actually with Greg on this one. He insinuated an entire culture picked up on a sport because they don't need to be smart to play it. And it was pretty dumb from a logical standpoint, too. The Japanese love baseball, too. Are they unintelligent? Are we?

FYI, he mentioned the Japanese not speaking English also, and excelling at the game. But I do understand that in today's world, intent means nothing, words have to be chosen very very carefully

Cowherd is an idiot and should not have said what he said.

In comment 12383466 Greg from LI said:

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Quote: He cited the fact that only 4% of players have a college degree and many of them don't speak English and yet perform at a high level. What exactly is the point of talking about who speaks English? What does that have to do with anything??

Greg, isn't that one of the things that many have been praising KP about on BBI and beyond? That he has learned English to prevent any barriers to his development of basketball? Robinson Cano has been in the league for years now and received a massive contract while still barely able to speak more than a lick of English. Same with guys like Tanaka.

In comment 12383491 Mike in Long Beach said:

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In comment 12383470 Greg from LI said: Quote: But if you can't recognize the complex mental game involved in the contest between pitchers and hitters, then you're either being disingenuous or you're not very bright. The game play is obviously simple. As for the mental games? Meh. I agree with the idea that it's a "heady" game, but your presumed assertion that it requires any significant intelligence to take part in the mental games is something I disagree with. By calling it a mental game, I'm assuming you're referring to matters of instinct. What's he going to throw?" Should I step out of the box? The ability to pick up on these things... are they "intelligent?" I think it's more instinct and feel... something dogs have. It's not something that makes me think baseball requires substantial intellect to learn and play. Now if you wanted to take the angle that batters and pitchers prepare themselves and research their opponents' tendencies in a number of situations, then maybe you're onto something.

Holy shit! Now you're comparing Dominicans to dogs? (Standard BBI reaction)

In comment 12383476 Jints in Carolina said:

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yes, it's ignorant.

The idea that occasionally a famous middle aged white guy says something racist and makes news is somehow new to you? And I'm "ignorant" for noticing it? Sorry your panties are in a bunch.

That Dominicans come from "rough backgrounds" and did not have many "opportunities". I can see how he could've set people off by saying they do not have "world-class academic abilities". But he followed it mentioning how the opportunity wasn't there, which makes it sound more like that it's not like their dumber than people from other countries but had a lack of academic resources to flourish educationally.

Most illustrative of his point which is obv not being mentioned here, any reasonably intelligent asshole can have a legitimate conversation with a baseball manager. Even a beat writer in 1000% clued in cannot participate in that kind of conversation with Bill Belichick. But yes, baseball doesnt require Mensa membership turns into Latin Americans are intellectually inferior. Im as left leaning as anyone, but not everything needs to be a cause for uproar.

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Holy shit! Now you're comparing Dominicans to dogs? (Standard BBI reaction)

I was actually conscious of some idiot thinking that before I clicked submit, but it would be so over-the-top stupid I couldn't imagine many buying in.

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You know why Greg Maddux wanted to stay in the NL his entire career? Because he felt that the biggest reason for his success was his encyclopedic knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of NL hitters, and he didn't want to have to mostly start from scratch in the AL, where he would be much less familiar with his opponents.

Pitchers and catchers watch a ton of film on opposing hitters to learn their tendencies, and better hitters do the same with pitchers. Kirk Gibson's famous pinch-hit walkoff homer in the 1988 World Series was hit because he read the Dodgers scouting report that had picked up on the pattern of pitches Eckersley had been throwing.

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It was broken down more than that. I said that if Eck faces a left-handed batter only on a 3-2 pitch with the tying or winning run on second and/or third, I’ll bet that you are going to get a backdoor slider. I had seen Eck do this, not all the time, but in big games with great hitters in crucial situations. I’d seen the A’s play 25 or 30 times, and at the end of the season I followed them closely. We had a group of scouts prepare a booklet for the Dodgers on all the A’s players. We broke down all of their pitchers and hitters. On Eckersley’s page, I had underlined that he threw a backdoor slider to lefties in that situation. On Friday, the workout day before the start of the series, Tommy Lasorda had us meet with the players. We gave each player a booklet and went over each one of the A’s players. I had the pitchers and was the last one to talk. When I got to Eckersley, I turned and pointed to the left-handed batters -- there were four or five of them sitting together – and I said, “Remember if there is a 3-2 count with Eckersley, he’s going to throw a backdoor slider.”

A lot of strategic and tactical thinking goes into highest levels of any sport, including baseball. That said, that level of thinking don't necessarily make it down to the player level. For the most part they're just told what to do and execute. That's their real job.

Right?

In comment 12383537 RB^2 said:

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A lot of strategic and tactical thinking goes into highest levels of any sport, including baseball. That said, that level of thinking don't necessarily make it down to the player level. For the most part they're just told what to do and execute. That's their real job.

That's a fair point RB. It's not as if football players are the ones designing schemes and writing playbooks.