Let me start off by first stating that I am not at all opposed to hunting and both a way of life and sport. However, there are times when big game hunting by rich tourists become sadistic. Yes, I understand that these tourism hunting do help with keeping these conservatories funded, but often these animals are older animals, who are more burden than good in the wild. This latest story of the illegal hunting, beheading, and skinning of a well known lion named Cecil isn't one of those stories.
As the latest updates are coming in, a Minnesota based dentist named Walter Palmer was behind the illegal hunting. While he states that he was duped by his guides, he had previously pled guilty to poaching of a black bear several years ago, so he does have a past history of poaching. Not only that, he sounds like a scumbag as he also settled on a sexual harassment suit. Obviously, we know what kind of Internet retribution can be dealt out, and it appears that this asshole is getting some much deserved loving from the Internet.
The truly sad thing is that the death of this pride leader lion may lead to the death of several (maybe even up to a dozen from some reports) cubs as a new alpha male will kill off all of Cecil's cubs. Ugh.
A big-game hunter from the Twin Cities acknowledged Tuesday that he killed a beloved lion in Zimbabwe with a bow and arrow, but said he regrets what he did and believed that his guides were leading him on a legal hunt.
Walter J. Palmer, 55, of Eden Prairie, a practicing dentist in Bloomington, issued a statement addressing the killing on July 1 of Cecil, which has sparked outrage around the globe.
“I hired several professional guides, and they secured all proper permits,” the statement read. “To my knowledge, everything about this trip was legal and properly handled and conducted.
“I had no idea that the lion I took was a known, local favorite, was collared and part of a study until the end of the hunt. I relied on the expertise of my local professional guides to ensure a legal hunt.”
Palmer, who has on his record a conviction for poaching a bear in Wisconsin several years ago, said he has not been contacted by any authorities in Zimbabwe or the U.S. about his killing the lion, but added he will cooperate with investigators. The public relations firm that worked with Palmer on the statement said he was in the Twin Cities on Tuesday. |
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I think he's looking at a four safari suspension minimum.
If it weren't for that fact I would tend to give him the benefit of the doubt that the guides took advantage of him for his $50000 and that he did believe it was all legal. His previous actions makes me believe he would do this knowingly if he believed he could get away with it.
They tried to destroy the monitoring collar, so pretty similar. Maybe closer to Hernandez destroying his home video system.
He shot this thing and then it wandered for 40 hours before they shot it. That's brutal.
Well, SC took it down, so there's not really much to protest there anymore.
It was really never about individuals owning or displaying the flag, but rather ostensible government endorsement that was the issue.
This guy and those like him are chicken hawk coward pieces of shit.
I hope his dental business goes straight in the shitter.
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All of the sudden stopped giving a crap about the Confederate flag and now everyone is pretending to he outraged by this guy. The internet has the attention span of a 7 year old
Well, SC took it down, so there's not really much to protest there anymore.
It was really never about individuals owning or displaying the flag, but rather ostensible government endorsement that was the issue.
Isn't it still part of Mississippi's state flag?
Hey, pussy. Fuck you.
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Hooray, you shot an animal, at a distance, with technology!
Knineteen : 7/28/2015 11:56 pm : link : reply
is such a pathetic act.
Hooray, you shot an animal, at a distance, with technology!
+1 on this.
Hooray, you shot an animal, at a distance, with technology!
Agreed.
Yew, yew...I see what you did there, yew
It comes across as disingenuous when you start a thread about someone saying something stupid, then wish they would be hit by a bus. Stupid + Stupid = Hypocritical
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is such a pathetic act.
Hooray, you shot an animal, at a distance, with technology!
Agreed.
Largely agree.
I'm not making a value judgment here. The logic of it all just seems really weird to me.
I'm not making a value judgment here. The logic of it all just seems really weird to me.
Don't have an issue killing what you eat. Not for me, but it'd be inconsistent of me to criticize as a meat-eater.
Killing animals strictly for sport is creepy IMO.
I'm not making a value judgment here. The logic of it all just seems really weird to me.
I agree to this point; unless someone chooses not to eat any meat and wear any leather it is hypocritical to judge others who legally hunt or fish.
I have no problem with those who wish to hunt or fish legally or those who choose not to but everyone should keep in mind that in many states the conservation departments budgets are largely funded by the sportsman who do hunt and fish from the fees generated from them. I know in Kentucky the Fish and Wildlife department is solely funded by this and as a result animal life has flourished even including the reintroduction of species to the state that had previously long disappeared. It is largely the sportsman who support the welfare of the wildlife.
Poaching is another thing entirely and most sportsman look opon that with disgust.
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RE: I'm not going to chime inbecause I was told it was wrong and hypocritical to wish ill on people
It comes across as disingenuous when you start a thread about someone saying something stupid, then wish they would be hit by a bus. Stupid + Stupid = Hypocritical
This
I have no issues with hunting/fishing (I fish), as long as it's done responsibility. This is the farthest thing from that.
It was a protected animal on a refuge. May as well go to the zoo and open fire.
Did you read the story? Or are you just being you?
Again, I'm not throwing stones at you here. I genuinely don't see what the fundamental differences are.
I'm not making a value judgment here. The logic of it all just seems really weird to me.
Life is always sloppy and we do our best to be decent people in a challenging world. I'm a vegetarian; my general policy is not to kill or harm animals (esp, those of more sophisticated cognitive machinery) unless there is a good reason. In many cases, "because it tastes good" seems like a pretty weak reason. Killing predatory animals that are a danger to humans or to eco-systems seems like a fair reason to hunt. "Because I enjoy killing things" seems like a very weak reason.
There are some good reasons to hunt and in many cases to eat meat. But usually, imho, the reasons people give are really a matter of laziness or selfishness and don't override what I think is a basic moral obligation not to harm beings that can experience pain.
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In comment 12390703 Headhunter said:
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RE: I'm not going to chime inbecause I was told it was wrong and hypocritical to wish ill on people
It comes across as disingenuous when you start a thread about someone saying something stupid, then wish they would be hit by a bus. Stupid + Stupid = Hypocritical
This
After a while, we just realize that there are people whose emotional need to get attention trumps the need for consistency, right?
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In comment 12390722 BamaBlue said:
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In comment 12390703 Headhunter said:
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RE: I'm not going to chime inbecause I was told it was wrong and hypocritical to wish ill on people
It comes across as disingenuous when you start a thread about someone saying something stupid, then wish they would be hit by a bus. Stupid + Stupid = Hypocritical
This
After a while, we just realize that there are people whose emotional need to get attention trumps the need for consistency, right?
I was leaning towards idiocy, but we can be generous and go that way, I guess.
But on the other hand, I'm not going to stop eating meat, hypocritical as that may be. Humans are natural omnivores and I want to eat meat. I deal with this by being as removed from the production of the meat as possible. Don't know what exactly what goes on in those places, don't want to know either. Anyway, my point was simply that, to me, it's much more of a binary question - do you kill animals, or not? Creating arbitrary boundries for such things seems irrelevent.
Hunting and killing an animal for fun or "sport" is creepy, and is indicative of a sadistic and/or sociopathic mindset.
But on the other hand, I'm not going to stop eating meat, hypocritical as that may be. Humans are natural omnivores and I want to eat meat. I deal with this by being as removed from the production of the meat as possible. Don't know what exactly what goes on in those places, don't want to know either. Anyway, my point was simply that, to me, it's much more of a binary question - do you kill animals, or not? Creating arbitrary boundries for such things seems irrelevent.
My point is that it's usually not a simple as a rule like that. There are various kinds of animals, and some have much less in terms of cognitive lives than others. As a rule, avoiding killing is best, but there are some reasons to do so, esp. if you actually need to to survive.
In frankness, and without spite, your omnivore argument is weak, imho. Human males are also rapists in terms of evolutionary history. The alpha male takes what he wants and the genes of the strongest are spread widely. But that doesn't make it okay for us now, does it? If you don't need to kill to be healthy or to survive, why do it? If you actually need it, that's another thing.
Plus now the Cubs will be killed and eaten.
Every deer hunter I know respects the animal and eats what he kills.
This guy's a douchey but maybe this will bring awareness and raise money.
The whole crazy death threat thing is a little out of whack.
1. a capacity to experience pain (which means we should avoid causing it if we can)
and
2. a life that it can, in some way, enjoy for itself. Animals are different from stones and chairs in this regard; there is something there that carries on its life for some purpose, even if it doesn't understand that purpose. (which means killing it unnecessarily is wrong)
What "we" are as humans is really secondary, imho.
Again, I'm not throwing stones at you here. I genuinely don't see what the fundamental differences are.
legally fishing/hunting and you strictly stay within the limits set by the wildlife departments who study and monitor each species and set seasonal/daily limits and guidelines so as to best ensure the species overall best well being. Some Jethro just going out there and thumbing his nose at that just to satisfy some personal desire by illegally poaching is the antithesis of what most outdoor sportsman who greatly appreciates and respects the animal. That is before even taking consideration into poaching doesn't put money into but instead steals money from the system which helps the animals.
You're a smart guy surly you can see the difference between the two.
Yep. And if an alien race came to earth that was remarkably more cognitively advanced than us, I'd argue with them that morally, it would be wrong to liquidate us for protien; even our stupid lives of hugging our kids, and playing video games, and gardening, and talking about the Giants has value for us, even if in the big picture, much of it is kind of shallow.
Vitamin B12.
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If you actually need it, that's another thing.
Vitamin B12.
I'll stop soon, because I don't want to get preachy. Most of us don't need to eat meat to get B12. You don't need to kill an animal to eat dairy or eggs, and in any case, most of us are lucky enough to have supplements easily available. This is really more conscience-assuaging, like the "human nature" arguments imho.
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In comment 12391012 Moondawg said:
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If you actually need it, that's another thing.
Vitamin B12.
I'll stop soon, because I don't want to get preachy. Most of us don't need to eat meat to get B12. You don't need to kill an animal to eat dairy or eggs, and in any case, most of us are lucky enough to have supplements easily available. This is really more conscience-assuaging, like the "human nature" arguments imho.
Meat is the best source. 80% of vegetarians are low in B12, which can cause a lot of issues. But killing animals for meat is one thing, this glamor hunting is completely different.
I agree, steve; above, I noted that I'm not anti-hunting as an absolute rule. And there's definitely a big difference between the guy who respects the game, and eats what he kills and the industrialized killing of the slaughterhouse.
Steve, I respect you, so now attempt to give you a hard time. I'm not anti-hunting or meat eating as an absolute rule.
Here's a serious question: would you find it morally problematic if some kind of "predator" species did to us what we do as hunters of animals? They kept our species alive, and even helped it flourish, because they enjoyed hunting and killing us.
If you have moral problems with that scenario, then what's the relevant distinction?
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In many cases if it weren't for the financial support generated from hunters and fisherman many species populations would be in much worse shape.
I agree, steve; above, I noted that I'm not anti-hunting as an absolute rule. And there's definitely a big difference between the guy who respects the game, and eats what he kills and the industrialized killing of the slaughterhouse.
Sorry I missed that one amongst the ones about aliens liquidating us for protein (grin)
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In many cases if it weren't for the financial support generated from hunters and fisherman many species populations would be in much worse shape.
Steve, I respect you, so now attempt to give you a hard time. I'm not anti-hunting or meat eating as an absolute rule.
Here's a serious question: would you find it morally problematic if some kind of "predator" species did to us what we do as hunters of animals? They kept our species alive, and even helped it flourish, because they enjoyed hunting and killing us.
If you have moral problems with that scenario, then what's the relevant distinction?
I don't really believe in the threat of aliens taking over our planet over so I can't even honestly answer that.
I know you aren't, neither am I you.
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In comment 12391118 steve in ky said:
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In many cases if it weren't for the financial support generated from hunters and fisherman many species populations would be in much worse shape.
Steve, I respect you, so now attempt to give you a hard time. I'm not anti-hunting or meat eating as an absolute rule.
Here's a serious question: would you find it morally problematic if some kind of "predator" species did to us what we do as hunters of animals? They kept our species alive, and even helped it flourish, because they enjoyed hunting and killing us.
If you have moral problems with that scenario, then what's the relevant distinction?
I don't really believe in the threat of aliens taking over our planet over so I can't even honestly answer that.
Steve, not the point; much of ethical reflection is about creative application of implicit rules "what if you were a woman? would you still think rape is ok?", etc. At the heart of the golden rule is the ability to put ourselves into another's shoes. This alien example was meant to put you into the shoes of an animal, as a kind of thought experiment.
But I'm done, anyway. Be well.
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In comment 12391155 Moondawg said:
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In comment 12391118 steve in ky said:
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In many cases if it weren't for the financial support generated from hunters and fisherman many species populations would be in much worse shape.
Steve, I respect you, so now attempt to give you a hard time. I'm not anti-hunting or meat eating as an absolute rule.
Here's a serious question: would you find it morally problematic if some kind of "predator" species did to us what we do as hunters of animals? They kept our species alive, and even helped it flourish, because they enjoyed hunting and killing us.
If you have moral problems with that scenario, then what's the relevant distinction?
I don't really believe in the threat of aliens taking over our planet over so I can't even honestly answer that.
Steve, not the point; much of ethical reflection is about creative application of implicit rules "what if you were a woman? would you still think rape is ok?", etc. At the heart of the golden rule is the ability to put ourselves into another's shoes. This alien example was meant to put you into the shoes of an animal, as a kind of thought experiment.
But I'm done, anyway. Be well.
Moondog I respect you and wasn't trying to dismiss your question, and I understood your point but in my opinion it is still isn't applicable to the relationship with man and animal on our earth. But like you suggest it's probably better leaving it alone at this point. That is getting into an entirely different discussion.
Yeah and in the Kimmel clip it aslo shows the jaguar (i think) elephant, etc that he killed. I think those were "legal" though.
Fuck this guy.
Again, I'm not throwing stones at you here. I genuinely don't see what the fundamental differences are.
You can practice catch and release when fishing. You can't un-kill something you just shot.
It's night and day.
Again, I'm not throwing stones at you here. I genuinely don't see what the fundamental differences are.
The issue with regards to my OP is that this lion lived on a sanctuary where it was protected. The guides (and most likely with the knowledge of this asshole dentist) lured it out of the protected area for the sole purpose of killing a magnificent beast. So unless these fish you're speaking of are swimming in some protected sanctuary and are lured out of the area to be fished, you're comparing apples to oranges.
Also, as noted earlier, I have no problems with sanctioned big game hunting that is legal and with the agreement with the conservatory to generate budget for broader conservation efforts. This isn't one of those cases.
And really, the second order effects of this illegal hunting/poaching is that now a large number of lion cubs will be killed as a result.
I have read that the females may go into heat immediately to try to distract the new alpha (who is named Jerhico) from killing all of Cecil's cubs.
Or, the ultimate sport. Hunting humans.
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so the new alpha male doesn't kill them.
I have read that the females may go into heat immediately to try to distract the new alpha (who is named Jerhico) from killing all of Cecil's cubs.
I wish this was the case, but from everything I've heard since yesterday, the females actually can't go into heat if they're nursing or are taking care of cubs. So it's not even up to the lionesses on whether they want to go into heat or not.
I'm hoping that there is a way for the conservationists to grab the cubs, but I'm not sure that they'll get involved, as it will be messing with the natural order of how these prides work.
King Charles XII of Sweden used to do this. At one point, he even thought a knife was unfair and just used whatever sticks or rocks he found in the woods. He was kind of a bad ass that way.
they have doomed the cubs and in some cases even some of the Lionesses when they try to protect those cubs.
Fact is, some prides do not survive when the dominant male gets killed/poached.
We wont be happy till they is nothing left on this planet but humans.
Just hope I wont be here to see it as it's going to be a tough day.
A world without wildlife in it is not a world worth living in.
Yup. These are very dark roads to travel down.
There have been several threads in the past about the power of the Internet and social media having changed stupid mistakes committed by people into lasting legacies. It's definitely sad and scary.
In this case, fuck this guy. His explanation that he didn't know that the hunt wasn't legal seems bullshit based on his past incident of poaching. This guy didn't make a mistake, he consciously decided to be a sadistic fuck and make an illegal kill. He is reaping what he sowed at this point.
I know he is getting blasted on the internet but are many of his patients actually leaving his practice? That really is the bottom line here because if most of them stay he really will just face more embarrassment than financial loss, discounting any possible charges that he may face.
It's hard to find a good dentist that you trust. I don't know if he is good or not but if his patients like him I'm not so sure too many up and leave him over this.
I know he is getting blasted on the internet but are many of his patients actually leaving his practice? That really is the bottom line here because if most of them stay he really will just face more embarrassment than financial loss, discounting any possible charges that he may face.
It's hard to find a good dentist that you trust. I don't know if he is good or not but if his patients like him I'm not so sure too many up and leave him over this.
Steve,
That may depend on how quickly this dies down. His patients may not want to deal with any demonstrators or media that may be camped outside his practice and may just go to a different dentist.
Will be interesting to see how it falls out.
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Maybe so. But when people are making decisions on numerous available dentists available, I think that a bad publicity is bad publicity, especially when it comes to stories about poaching, lying to the feds, etc. So maybe his loyal patients will stay, but others may not want to deal with someone as unscrupulous as this jackass.
Sure he might see some negative effects but one large postcard mailing in his area offering a free cleaning would likely get many new people giving him a try as well.
And people are giving 5 star reviews so their reviews are filtered to the top so even the 5 star ones are bad. His business is fucked. I see Jews pieces each month about business going under. Many of them stem from bad online riviews which slowly stall business growth. It's the world we live in now, fair or not. For this guy, it's more than fair.
Some would for sure, most likely won't.
I think this is the effective counterpoint to Friedman's bullshit assertion that anti-discrimination regulations are idiotic.
The bully pulpit of the internet does not wield a scalpel.
News pieces was what should have been said.
News pieces was what should have been said.
Too late. DESTROY HIM, INTERNET!
Very offensive.
Always looking at the brighter side of things...you make me sick!
Always looking down on everyone.
I don't know...I thought lions were friends with warthogs...
And I seriously doubt that he didn't know that his kill was illegal, especially with the whole tracking device being on the lion. And with his previous history of poaching and lying to the authority, the dude is a scumbag sack if lying shit.
And I seriously doubt that he didn't know that his kill was illegal, especially with the whole tracking device being on the lion. And with his previous history of poaching and lying to the authority, the dude is a scumbag sack if lying shit.
IMO Ronnie nailed this guy.
Pardon if the attached video has already been linked.
The man who killed Cecil the lion. - ( New Window )
To my valued patients:
As you may have already heard, I have been in the news over the last few days for reasons that have nothing to do with my profession or the care I provide for you. I want you to know of this situation and my involvement
In addition to spending time with my family, one of my passions outside dentistry is hunting. I’ve been a life-long hunter since I was a child growing up in North Dakota. I don’t often talk about hunting with my patients because it can be a divisive and emotionally charged topic. I understand and respect that not everyone shares the same views on hunting.
In early July, I was in Zimbabwe on a bow hunting trip for big game. I hired several professional guides and they secured all proper permits. To my knowledge, everything about this trip was legal and properly handled and conducted.
I had no idea that the lion I took was a known, local favorite, was collared and part of a study until the end of the hunt. I relied on the expertise of my local professional guides to ensure a legal hunt.
I have not been contacted by authorities in Zimbabwe or in the U.S. about this situation, but will assist them in any inquiries they may have.
Again, I deeply regret that my pursuit of an activity I love and practice responsibly and legally resulted in the taking of this lion. That was never my intention.
The media interest in this matter – along with a substantial number of comments and calls from people who are angered by this situation and by the practice of hunting in general – has disrupted our business and our ability to see our patients. For that disruption, I apologize profoundly for this inconvenience and promise you that we will do our best to resume normal operations as soon as possible. We are working to have patients with immediate needs referred to other dentists and will keep you informed of any additional developments.
On behalf of all of us at River Bluff Dental, thank you for your support.
Sincerely,
Walter J. Palmer, DDS
River Bluff Dental
I'll play along. So say that he didn't realize until after the lion had been killed that it was a protected lion due to his tracking collar. Was he ever going to come forward and admit his (and his guides') mistake? Or was he going to play the same dumb game that he played in his previous poaching expedition when not only did he move the bear carcass to make it seem like it was killed in a sanction area but also lie to federal agents about it? Was he going to ever own up to his "mistake" as he calls it if he wasn't caught? Or was he going to merely marvel at the trophy head of Cecil, as he hoped that no one would ever find out about his actions?
While I may not agree with his choice of a hobby, I won't hold it against him for his desire to kill animals with his bow and arrow as long as they are done legally and with proper precautions. However, when his latest action stinks of similar unscrupulous dishonesty/deception as his previous action with poaching the bear (which he admitted to and was punished for), it's hard to see him as anything but a scumbag, who is now contrite because he was caught and is feeling the backlash. I'm not sure that I even buy the sincerity in his apology and am not sure if he even give a shit about the second order effects of his killing, which may/will lead to the deaths of many other members of that pride. He's doing a masterful job of deflecting the blame to his local "professional" guides.
In the end, mistakes are made, but people own up to them. I doubt that this asshole would have ever owned up to his if not caught and bludgeoned by the public.
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attack those cute warthogs.
I don't know...I thought lions were friends with warthogs...
Odds of that happening?
Odds of that happening?
We'll see. I'm sure if given an immunity and a hefty fine, he will cooperate. Otherwise, I doubt that he will put himself in a position to get potential jail time in Zimbabwe, no matter what he says now.
He is getting death threats and his family is in hiding.
A tad bit of an overreaction.
He is getting death threats and his family is in hiding.
A tad bit of an overreaction.
I can never understand how so easily some people wish death on another person. Pathetic
He is getting death threats and his family is in hiding.
A tad bit of an overreaction.
Agree. The whole death threat thing in this Internet age is pretty dumb, especially when it's posted by people using their personal facebook and twitter accounts. Don't these people know that they aren't anonymous when they make these idiotic threats?
My impression from past conversations with hunters is that thrill-seeking Ernest Hemingway/Teddy Roosevelt-wannabe tourists like Dr. Palmer are not very well regarded.
Btw, one of the likely tragedies here is the strong likelihood that the new alpha male, who is already known, will kill all existing cubs in the pride, based upon an instinctual tendency to maintain his own gene pool. Several articles have noted that the females with cubs will now immediately go into heat in an attempt to distract him, but it doesn't usually work. I am confident that if this occurs, it will be tracked, and the blame laid at the dentist's door. Contempt for him would then spike again.
The question is a tricky one. I think most of us would agree that it's fine for Wyoming to sell fishing licenses to fund efforts to protect endangered species. And most are repulsed by Zimbabwe selling licenses and quotas to tour operators that allow them to bait lions out of their protected habitats to be shot by rich tourists. Even if we believe that the money is needed for conservation efforts, and is being used that way, the repugnance remains. So where do you draw the line?
One surprising aspect of the Palmer case is how incredibly close his hunt was to being legal.
"Are you saying that all this noise is about a dead lion? Lions are killed all the time in this country," said Tryphina Kaseke, a used-clothes hawker on the streets of Harare. "What is so special about this one?"
"Why are the Americans more concerned than us?" said Joseph Mabuwa, a 33-year-old father-of-two cleaning his car in the center of the capital. "We never hear them speak out when villagers are killed by lions and elephants in Hwange."
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“The client then fired using a bow and arrow, and it went away into the long grass. This was about 10 pm.”
Mr Bronkhorst said he had a sense that the lion was hit, but could not be sure.
“Bow and arrow wounds are different to gun wounds, and they don’t show much. But we couldn’t do anything that night.”
The four men went home for the night before returning to search for Cecil at dawn the next day.
“I was worried about the lion and what had happened,” said Mr Bronkhorst.
“We got there about 9am, and we found it and it was wounded, and the client then shot it, with his bow and arrow, and killed it.”
It was then the hunters went over to it, and saw it had a collar.
“I was devastated,” said Mr Bronkhorst, who immediately saw that he had killed a protected lion.
“I could not have seen the collar at night. We would never shoot a collared animal. I was devastated, and so was the client, we were both upset, and I panicked and took it off and put it in a tree.
“I should have taken it to Parks [the Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlfe Management Authority], I admit that. So we did what had to be done. We took the head and skin, as the client had paid for the trophy.
“I went to Parks and reported what had happened. I wish I had taken the collar.
“We then went back to my place near Hwange. The client asked if we would find him an elephant larger than 63 pounds, [the weight of one tusk] which is a very large elephant, but I told him I would not be able to find one so big, so the client left the next day and went to Bulawayo for the night and then flew out [to Johannesburg] midday the following day.
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Also this asshole claimed in a statement that he would cooperate fully with authorities if asked to. Only problem is that the dickhead has disappeared now:
“I’m sure he knows” the government is looking for him, Ed Grace, chief of law enforcement for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, told The Washington Post on Thursday. “We’ve made repeated attempts to try and get in contact with him.”
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Animal psychic says she has talked to Cecil, and the dead lion has a lot to say - ( New Window )