everyone is healthy, everyone is completely back to pre surgery strength and command. I don't know, I go back and forth on all 5 of them. They each
can make a case for being the best on this staff. Who has the highest ceiling?
I think it's just insulting to keep telling your fans you are willing to spend money to improve the team but continually do not back it up.
I am sure they think they are fooling the majority of the fans into thinking adding Uribe, KJ and Clippard has meant "spending" but as we all know, they actually didn't spend a time.
And this doesn't mean they have to go out and just dole out some 150M contract just to do it.. but even in smaller trades, if they'd be more willing to take on money, the cost would be less in terms of talent. It does make a difference.
has been a while since I looked into it. Some of my knowledge comes from speaking with 2 friends who worked on the Madoff bankruptcy. Essentially the commercial real estate market crashed, the Wilpons needed $$ to pay of real estate obligations (e.g. tenants go under and rents cant be replaced) -- whammy #1. Their Madoff account went from being the rainy day fund to a potential and ultimate source of massive liability -- whammy #2.
There was one asset left which could give them $$ to stay alive while the RE market sorted out and to cover Madoff costs. That was the Mets. So they extracted money from the Mets. Essentially took out loans against the Mets/SNY assets and used the loan proceeds to cover whammy #1-2. But it was a real perfect storm for the Wilpons, since the Mets were already in a lot of debt because of Citifield. The timing of Citifield was really whammy #3, because it meant that the RE/Madoff debts they put onto the Mets rendered the team highly leveraged. And like a lot of highly leveraged companies, the goal has been essentially to stay alive long enough for growth and inflation and a bit of debt servicing to whittle away at the debt.
we acquired Zobrist without paying the Zobrist price tag. Uribe and Johnson give you all the flexibility Zobrist would have position wise, and both their bats make up for Zobrists as far as this season. They are all around the same age, and all having similar seasons. In fact, you can probably make the case that two of three are better than one but since its "Zobrist" Ill say its about even.
We also strengthened the bullpen, Mejia suspension or not, which I didn't even anticipate. Acquiring another teams closer who will be available for the postseason was a nice move.
Kirk, Conforto, Tejada, Flores, and Johnson are fighting for a couple positions and most are playing pretty well lately. Not sure if OF and SS is even that huge of a need anymore and those were really the only two positions we could upgrade.
It sounds like the prices on some the remaining players are exorbitant so if this is what we have, this is what we have. Im not in the least bit upset about it. I would have been pissed if we did NOTHING, but we absolutely improved the roster.
2015 Mets are 15th/15 in runs scored. A bit different don't you think?
Mets were 8th in scoring last year and have played the first half without many crucial pieces. TDA, Murphy, Wright, Uribe, Johnson, Conforto could easily give us what last years team was giving us as we head into the playoffs. And you know that wasn't my point at all anyway. Some of the earlier Giants teams had Posey and Panda and not a whole lot else and they won championships. Im sure every Giant fan, especially during their first run, was saying... "Oh Shit, I wish we had another bat" As they entered the playoffs . Pitching wins in the playoffs period.
The problem is that since we've won all 3 of the games we've played since the moves, it kind of gives off the sense that "everything is fixed, we're ready to compete" and sucks people into overvaluing the moves made... but we're going to hit rough patches again. It's just how it ebbs and flows. And if we don't add one more piece, I guarantee a time will come in September where we are all saying "goddamn it... if we just had that one more bat it could have made the difference"
If Wright is back then Uribe/Johnson aren't changing much. How is Uribe playing with Murphy and Wright in there? Can't just add up every player regardless of position and say "well they are adding X". If Wright is at 3b and Murphy at 2b where is Uribe making an impact besides the bench?
teams thought they were a TRUE BAT away from being a contender as well.
You flat out said you would be very disappointed if Sandy didn't add a bat. Talk about back tracking.
They added two bats? Like I said, Uribe AND Johnson was on par with adding a Zobrist. Would I like another? Yeah I would. I think Parra would still be a nice add in the outfield but we bolstered the team already.
could probably get Jose Reyes without giving anything up as a salary dump. Even if Reyes has declined, I think we'd all agree that he's a better player than Tejada.
Reyes would be the perfect bridge to Cecchini/Rosario. The deal would likely be dead money in the back-end, but we'd be better today and 2016.
the Mets chances with the Team on the field today, I will like them more on Friday when TDA replaces Plawecki. I will like them a lot more if Wright is playing 3b on August 15th. I will like them more if Matz takes the hill on august 15t. I like them more if Blevins is coming out of the pen on August 15th
we acquired Zobrist without paying the Zobrist price tag. Uribe and Johnson give you all the flexibility Zobrist would have position wise, and both their bats make up for Zobrists as far as this season. They are all around the same age, and all having similar seasons. In fact, you can probably make the case that two of three are better than one but since its "Zobrist" Ill say its about even.
Zobrist isn't the kind of bat we're talking about anyway. Nor is Parra. If those guys are Sandy's 'bullet' we've been sold a bill of goods ...again. Except many of us aren't buying. Then there are others that slurp up anything the team spews on the sidewalk gratefully. Right Z?
there a difference between being down or "not excited" and being really disappointed they won't spend money to help the team? EVERYONE agreed they needed a bat.
Debating between "down" or "disappointed" really is just semantics isn't it?
Totally disagree. Excited about aspects of the team, disappointed ownership refuses to do more. If that's your rationale the Mets could do NOTHING all off-season and you would be happy because of the young pitching. If that's your rationale why do we even talk about making additions or needs?
But they haven't done nothing so that's a silly and moot point. If they truly did absolutely nothing maybe I would be down/disappointed in them as well but that isn't the case.
IMO talking about options and possibilities is one of the fun things about baseball however they not making a move that I perhaps thought about doesn't cause me any angst.
RE: The new York Mets as seen through beer goggles
we acquired Zobrist without paying the Zobrist price tag. Uribe and Johnson give you all the flexibility Zobrist would have position wise, and both their bats make up for Zobrists as far as this season. They are all around the same age, and all having similar seasons. In fact, you can probably make the case that two of three are better than one but since its "Zobrist" Ill say its about even.
Zobrist isn't the kind of bat we're talking about anyway. Nor is Parra. If those guys are Sandy's 'bullet' we've been sold a bill of goods ...again. Except many of us aren't buying. Then there are others that slurp up anything the team spews on the sidewalk gratefully. Right Z?
I said from the beginning that was pretty much exactly who I wanted. Zobrist and Parra. So fuck off.
the Mets chances with the Team on the field today, I will like them more on Friday when TDA replaces Plawecki. I will like them a lot more if Wright is playing 3b on August 15th. I will like them more if Matz takes the hill on august 15t. I like them more if Blevins is coming out of the pen on August 15th
Wright will not be playing 3b for the Mets on 8/15
could probably get Jose Reyes without giving anything up as a salary dump. Even if Reyes has declined, I think we'd all agree that he's a better player than Tejada.
Reyes would be the perfect bridge to Cecchini/Rosario. The deal would likely be dead money in the back-end, but we'd be better today and 2016.
They don't want Reyes. Reyes isn't good. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand.
the Mets chances with the Team on the field today, I will like them more on Friday when TDA replaces Plawecki. I will like them a lot more if Wright is playing 3b on August 15th. I will like them more if Matz takes the hill on august 15t. I like them more if Blevins is coming out of the pen on August 15th
We all would but banking on just half of those things would be very optimistic let alone all of them.
We're talking about a catcher who gets hurt every time someone bumps into him, a 3B with a serious spinal condition, a RP who is looking at being out about 3x longer than the initial timetable (if at all) and a SP who has already been under the knife and made it through a whopping 2 starts before being shelved.
unless he trips over a rake. Matz has healed but not completely, but he will. Wright could be set back in a heart beat, so I'll give you that. Blevins is a head scratcher and I'll give you that also
If Wright is back then Uribe/Johnson aren't changing much. How is Uribe playing with Murphy and Wright in there? Can't just add up every player regardless of position and say "well they are adding X". If Wright is at 3b and Murphy at 2b where is Uribe making an impact besides the bench?
I don't think Wright will play full time and even if he plays close to it going from having the worst bench in baseball to a bench full of quality major league players wouldn't be improving the team??
How has that prediction worked out for you? Seeing as the team hasn't added a red cent to date. Yep that reads .00
In fairness I do think Sandy is actively trying to add a legit bat with an economical price tag. Gomez @ 2/18M or Jay Bruce @2/26M fit the profile. It isn't as easy as it sounds. The price tags in terms of talent compensation are high.
Dan great point as far as penny pinching on the bench and a lefty arm are concerned. It's hard to take claims of salary flexibility seriously when the team won't dole out chump change to bolster a playoff push.
So you think Ruben Tejada will be better than Reyes RoS 2015 and in 2016?
Im not even sure Tejada will be a starter next year, but if he was? Yeah probably. Reyes's defense is AWFUL at this point in his career and he is giving his teams roughly "Tejada level" offense. After two years of sucking he's going to get better at 33 next year? Yeah. ok.
not a doctor but I don't understand Blevins. How does 6 weeks turn into 12 and still not cleared? Isn't there a pretty standard timeline to a bone healing?
So you think Ruben Tejada will be better than Reyes RoS 2015 and in 2016?
Im not even sure Tejada will be a starter next year, but if he was? Yeah probably. Reyes's defense is AWFUL at this point in his career and he is giving his teams roughly "Tejada level" offense. After two years of sucking he's going to get better at 33 next year? Yeah. ok.
Cool. I'll save this and we'll compare at the end of 2015 and 2016.
There's def a possibility that I'm wrong and Reyes is washed up and Tejada will continue to be solid, but my expectation is that Reyes is worth at least two extra wins over the next 8 months of baseball.
How has that prediction worked out for you? Seeing as the team hasn't added a red cent to date. Yep that reads .00
In fairness I do think Sandy is actively trying to add a legit bat with an economical price tag. Gomez @ 2/18M or Jay Bruce @2/26M fit the profile. It isn't as easy as it sounds. The price tags in terms of talent compensation are high.
Dan great point as far as penny pinching on the bench and a lefty arm are concerned. It's hard to take claims of salary flexibility seriously when the team won't dole out chump change to bolster a playoff push.
No I didn't say we would be taking on salary fuck face. I said we likely have some level of flexibility should we want or need to take on a a contract. We've already added 5.5 million, well more than what Zobrist would have costed, and its pretty clear with who the Mets have been concocted with, they CAN add more.
Should be a great atmosphere. I hope you get the sharp Harvey. His post TJ season has been a bit uneven. His last start was a step in a positive direction after walking 4 in his previous three trips to the mound.
So you think Ruben Tejada will be better than Reyes RoS 2015 and in 2016?
Im not even sure Tejada will be a starter next year, but if he was? Yeah probably. Reyes's defense is AWFUL at this point in his career and he is giving his teams roughly "Tejada level" offense. After two years of sucking he's going to get better at 33 next year? Yeah. ok.
Cool. I'll save this and we'll compare at the end of 2015 and 2016.
There's def a possibility that I'm wrong and Reyes is washed up and Tejada will continue to be solid, but my expectation is that Reyes is worth at least two extra wins over the next 8 months of baseball.
Please do. Going to be pretty pointless unless Tejada is starting full time however.
head to the game Friday night. Should be an electric atmosphere with Harvey vs. Gio and first place on the line.
I'm going Friday as well. Excited to see Harvey, I keep being worried I'll get stuck with Niese lol
I've gone to half a dozen games this year and have gotten one of Colon/Gee/Niese each time. I don't think there's rain scheduled tonight/tomorrow, so I think we're safe.
vs. Strasburg was the best game I've been to in CitiField in terms of crowd. I used to go to far more games in Shea but ended up with Bobby Jones, Trachsel and Mark Clark more than I'd like to recall.
I am sure they think they are fooling the majority of the fans into thinking adding Uribe, KJ and Clippard has meant "spending" but as we all know, they actually didn't spend a time.
And this doesn't mean they have to go out and just dole out some 150M contract just to do it.. but even in smaller trades, if they'd be more willing to take on money, the cost would be less in terms of talent. It does make a difference.
2015 Mets are 15th/15 in runs scored. A bit different don't you think?
There was one asset left which could give them $$ to stay alive while the RE market sorted out and to cover Madoff costs. That was the Mets. So they extracted money from the Mets. Essentially took out loans against the Mets/SNY assets and used the loan proceeds to cover whammy #1-2. But it was a real perfect storm for the Wilpons, since the Mets were already in a lot of debt because of Citifield. The timing of Citifield was really whammy #3, because it meant that the RE/Madoff debts they put onto the Mets rendered the team highly leveraged. And like a lot of highly leveraged companies, the goal has been essentially to stay alive long enough for growth and inflation and a bit of debt servicing to whittle away at the debt.
Be careful HH, I was called a racist for saying MUCH less than that!!
We also strengthened the bullpen, Mejia suspension or not, which I didn't even anticipate. Acquiring another teams closer who will be available for the postseason was a nice move.
Kirk, Conforto, Tejada, Flores, and Johnson are fighting for a couple positions and most are playing pretty well lately. Not sure if OF and SS is even that huge of a need anymore and those were really the only two positions we could upgrade.
It sounds like the prices on some the remaining players are exorbitant so if this is what we have, this is what we have. Im not in the least bit upset about it. I would have been pissed if we did NOTHING, but we absolutely improved the roster.
Uribe/Johnson are solid enough upgrades but 15/15 in runs scored need/needs more.
2015 Mets are 15th/15 in runs scored. A bit different don't you think?
Mets were 8th in scoring last year and have played the first half without many crucial pieces. TDA, Murphy, Wright, Uribe, Johnson, Conforto could easily give us what last years team was giving us as we head into the playoffs. And you know that wasn't my point at all anyway. Some of the earlier Giants teams had Posey and Panda and not a whole lot else and they won championships. Im sure every Giant fan, especially during their first run, was saying... "Oh Shit, I wish we had another bat" As they entered the playoffs . Pitching wins in the playoffs period.
Uribe/Johnson are solid enough upgrades but 15/15 in runs scored need/needs more.
It isn't a push if Mejia isn't available for the postseason even if they are equal players.
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and Mejia is a push by any metric/stat
Uribe/Johnson are solid enough upgrades but 15/15 in runs scored need/needs more.
It isn't a push if Mejia isn't available for the postseason even if they are equal players.
That only means something IF they make the playoffs, I'm talking about getting there.
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teams thought they were a TRUE BAT away from being a contender as well.
You flat out said you would be very disappointed if Sandy didn't add a bat. Talk about back tracking.
They added two bats? Like I said, Uribe AND Johnson was on par with adding a Zobrist. Would I like another? Yeah I would. I think Parra would still be a nice add in the outfield but we bolstered the team already.
Reyes would be the perfect bridge to Cecchini/Rosario. The deal would likely be dead money in the back-end, but we'd be better today and 2016.
Zobrist isn't the kind of bat we're talking about anyway. Nor is Parra. If those guys are Sandy's 'bullet' we've been sold a bill of goods ...again. Except many of us aren't buying. Then there are others that slurp up anything the team spews on the sidewalk gratefully. Right Z?
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In comment 12391023 DanMetroMan said:
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and Mejia is a push by any metric/stat
Uribe/Johnson are solid enough upgrades but 15/15 in runs scored need/needs more.
It isn't a push if Mejia isn't available for the postseason even if they are equal players.
That only means something IF they make the playoffs, I'm talking about getting there.
Thats fine. But if player one is equal to player two and only player two can make the postseason, you've improved the roster acquiring player two.
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In comment 12390973 DanMetroMan said:
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there a difference between being down or "not excited" and being really disappointed they won't spend money to help the team? EVERYONE agreed they needed a bat.
Debating between "down" or "disappointed" really is just semantics isn't it?
Totally disagree. Excited about aspects of the team, disappointed ownership refuses to do more. If that's your rationale the Mets could do NOTHING all off-season and you would be happy because of the young pitching. If that's your rationale why do we even talk about making additions or needs?
But they haven't done nothing so that's a silly and moot point. If they truly did absolutely nothing maybe I would be down/disappointed in them as well but that isn't the case.
IMO talking about options and possibilities is one of the fun things about baseball however they not making a move that I perhaps thought about doesn't cause me any angst.
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we acquired Zobrist without paying the Zobrist price tag. Uribe and Johnson give you all the flexibility Zobrist would have position wise, and both their bats make up for Zobrists as far as this season. They are all around the same age, and all having similar seasons. In fact, you can probably make the case that two of three are better than one but since its "Zobrist" Ill say its about even.
Zobrist isn't the kind of bat we're talking about anyway. Nor is Parra. If those guys are Sandy's 'bullet' we've been sold a bill of goods ...again. Except many of us aren't buying. Then there are others that slurp up anything the team spews on the sidewalk gratefully. Right Z?
I said from the beginning that was pretty much exactly who I wanted. Zobrist and Parra. So fuck off.
Wright will not be playing 3b for the Mets on 8/15
Reyes would be the perfect bridge to Cecchini/Rosario. The deal would likely be dead money in the back-end, but we'd be better today and 2016.
They don't want Reyes. Reyes isn't good. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand.
Prevost (rehab) 3 innings 2 hits 0 runs 1 walk 3 k's
We all would but banking on just half of those things would be very optimistic let alone all of them.
We're talking about a catcher who gets hurt every time someone bumps into him, a 3B with a serious spinal condition, a RP who is looking at being out about 3x longer than the initial timetable (if at all) and a SP who has already been under the knife and made it through a whopping 2 starts before being shelved.
Ruben Tejada 1.3 WAR
Jose Reyes wRC+ 94
Ruben Tejada wRC+ 93
Ruben Tejada 1.3 WAR
Jose Reyes wRC+ 94
Ruben Tejada wRC+ 93
So you think Ruben Tejada will be better than Reyes RoS 2015 and in 2016?
I don't think Wright will play full time and even if he plays close to it going from having the worst bench in baseball to a bench full of quality major league players wouldn't be improving the team??
In fairness I do think Sandy is actively trying to add a legit bat with an economical price tag. Gomez @ 2/18M or Jay Bruce @2/26M fit the profile. It isn't as easy as it sounds. The price tags in terms of talent compensation are high.
Dan great point as far as penny pinching on the bench and a lefty arm are concerned. It's hard to take claims of salary flexibility seriously when the team won't dole out chump change to bolster a playoff push.
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Jose Reyes 1.1 WAR
Ruben Tejada 1.3 WAR
Jose Reyes wRC+ 94
Ruben Tejada wRC+ 93
So you think Ruben Tejada will be better than Reyes RoS 2015 and in 2016?
Im not even sure Tejada will be a starter next year, but if he was? Yeah probably. Reyes's defense is AWFUL at this point in his career and he is giving his teams roughly "Tejada level" offense. After two years of sucking he's going to get better at 33 next year? Yeah. ok.
I'm going Friday as well. Excited to see Harvey, I keep being worried I'll get stuck with Niese lol
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So you think Ruben Tejada will be better than Reyes RoS 2015 and in 2016?
Im not even sure Tejada will be a starter next year, but if he was? Yeah probably. Reyes's defense is AWFUL at this point in his career and he is giving his teams roughly "Tejada level" offense. After two years of sucking he's going to get better at 33 next year? Yeah. ok.
Cool. I'll save this and we'll compare at the end of 2015 and 2016.
There's def a possibility that I'm wrong and Reyes is washed up and Tejada will continue to be solid, but my expectation is that Reyes is worth at least two extra wins over the next 8 months of baseball.
In fairness I do think Sandy is actively trying to add a legit bat with an economical price tag. Gomez @ 2/18M or Jay Bruce @2/26M fit the profile. It isn't as easy as it sounds. The price tags in terms of talent compensation are high.
Dan great point as far as penny pinching on the bench and a lefty arm are concerned. It's hard to take claims of salary flexibility seriously when the team won't dole out chump change to bolster a playoff push.
No I didn't say we would be taking on salary fuck face. I said we likely have some level of flexibility should we want or need to take on a a contract. We've already added 5.5 million, well more than what Zobrist would have costed, and its pretty clear with who the Mets have been concocted with, they CAN add more.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 12391084 Metnut said:
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So you think Ruben Tejada will be better than Reyes RoS 2015 and in 2016?
Im not even sure Tejada will be a starter next year, but if he was? Yeah probably. Reyes's defense is AWFUL at this point in his career and he is giving his teams roughly "Tejada level" offense. After two years of sucking he's going to get better at 33 next year? Yeah. ok.
Cool. I'll save this and we'll compare at the end of 2015 and 2016.
There's def a possibility that I'm wrong and Reyes is washed up and Tejada will continue to be solid, but my expectation is that Reyes is worth at least two extra wins over the next 8 months of baseball.
Please do. Going to be pretty pointless unless Tejada is starting full time however.
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head to the game Friday night. Should be an electric atmosphere with Harvey vs. Gio and first place on the line.
I'm going Friday as well. Excited to see Harvey, I keep being worried I'll get stuck with Niese lol
I've gone to half a dozen games this year and have gotten one of Colon/Gee/Niese each time. I don't think there's rain scheduled tonight/tomorrow, so I think we're safe.
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Please do. Going to be pretty pointless unless Tejada is starting full time however.
Then why even bother to bring up Tejada's stats in 4 months of baseball unless to say the guy we have is as good as Reyes?
We've added zero. Zilch Bupkus. Nada. Nothing. No money at all.
We've spent the David Wright and Mejia savings. That is it.