Giant Anomaly - Keep HC, Keep Firing Coordinators

TC is more of the "CEO" at this point. Like it or not, or systems were dated and a reason (not the only reason) for the teams issues.

I think our systems on both sides are finally up to date.

In Pittsburgh, he bottomed out, looked like dead meat and reinvented the offense (well he didn't) and he enjoyed another run of success. I would assume we're thinking the same will happen.

the same sentiment...

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I think this suggests the owners/GM love TC, but not his ability to pick coordinators.

Belichick keeps having to change coordinators as guys leave on their own, but TC is the only one I can recollect who fired as many as five.

Coughlin's original ST coach did retire in 2006, and we also know that Spags originally left on his own. But I'm talking about guys who were shown the door.

Some of it has to do with the nature of the team's Super Bowls - neither came in years where the Giants were the best team start to finish (and that's happened so rarely of late anyway). You don't want to get rid of a guy with a proven ability to win championships unless you're sure he's no longer the right guy for the job. I think the Giants have done the right thing with Coughlin and the coaching staff (aside from Tom Quinn).

hire 3 bad DCs, 1 really bad OC, another OC who won but drove everybody nuts and a questionable ST coach.

if the giants were a public company would we see activist investors step in?

shouldn't have been hired in the first place.

Hire bad coordinators on defense or did the defensive talent stink?

For example, how was Bill Sheridan supposed to field a good defense with the complete shit talent he had on that defense? He was starting 8th string safeties.

Was Hufnagel a bad quarterback or had Eli not turned the corner yet?

I think talent has quite a bit to do with it - particularly for Gilbride.

He did after all have a d good enough to get a championship..which a lot over look

I guess you were focusing on defense.

I felt like the defense under performed for Lewis/Fewell. Those should have been okay defenses.

The others all deserved to be fired. Several were first time coordinators and there is always projection when promoting someone. It doesn't always work out. They stuck with Fewell too long through loyalty imo.

It should be noted his Spags hire(first time around) resulted in a dominant defense after some growing pains.

In comment 12391463 BrettNYG10 said:

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Some of it has to do with the nature of the team's Super Bowls - neither came in years where the Giants were the best team start to finish (and that's happened so rarely of late anyway). You don't want to get rid of a guy with a proven ability to win championships unless you're sure he's no longer the right guy for the job. I think the Giants have done the right thing with Coughlin and the coaching staff (aside from Tom Quinn).

Excellent point Brett. When you don't have one of the best teams to start with, and then you have to draft last, it makes it hard to compete the subsequent year. Throw in there a few spotty draft selections and a rash of injuries to young players, well, I don't think I need to finish the thought...

There literally was no one else available at that time and for the price the Giants would pay.

I disagree that it means they don't like his ability to pick coordinators.

You need to consider that these coordinator changes were likely to quiet the fans screaming for a change and to clean house. Mara has stated several times he hates to change the things and I believe that includes coordinators. Your premise also discounts the possibility that some of these firings may have been initiated by TC and not by the Owners/GM.

Mostly, you are discounting the fact that with pressure from the fans to make a change on the front office and their strong desire to keep TC, they were forced to change coordinators so they could keep TC and try to please the fans at the same time.

The reason you don't see this type of change more often is because in most cases they fire the coach and the new coach comes in with his own coordinators but in those cases it's the initial coordinators also getting the ax.

I also believe the GM can sometimes have a bigger voice in who the coach selects as their coordinators than we may believe. For example, how do we know Fewell wasn't forced on TC by Reece? I'm not saying he was but it is certainly possible.

that's a new one.

however, I felt the fanbase often overlooks how many times he has whiffed on coordinator hires.

Promote Spags as HC, keep the OC, then have Spags hire someone like a clone of himself, thinks exactly like him defensively.

In comment 12391810 The Last Shemita said:

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Promote Spags as HC, keep the OC, then have Spags hire someone like a clone of himself, thinks exactly like him defensively.

McAdoo is the HC in waiting, not Spags.

currently coaching either.

In comment 12391516 micky said:

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He did after all have a d good enough to get a championship..which a lot over look

with both the offense and defense in gilbride/fewell -- EVERYTHING had to go right. no injuries, everyone communicating, on the same page, confident, etc. The Patriots mix the pieces up every year and have success.

Something to be said for talent, but the coaching staff is just as important.

as a Giant. And he was fired as a HC and defensive coordinator pretty damn quick for those respective positions. Sullivan and Sheridan were flops in Tampa. That coaching tree is a mess. If McAdoo is a success, is it based on McCarty or TC influence? He was a hot commodity with GB that's why the Giants were interested. TC doesn't have any of those BB type of guy just out of college who edits videos that goes on to become a good HC stories.

That was a huge mistake. Our offense that year was really good too, a lost year due to the defensive secondary.

Fewell in 2010 came in a did a good job. Unfortunately the defense left the game with 7 minutes left on the clock against Philly.

2011 doesnt happen without that "finish" mentality though... so blessing in gut wrenching disguise.

for TC. He has done a nice job with the Giants and has real potential to be a HC. Coaching various positions with good success is a good indicator IMO.

a lot of key injuries. And at times at the same position. SMH.

is that our players have to fit in perfectly into our system, whereas you see Belichick tailoring his system to the strengths of his players. I think we could have had more playoff appearances with a little less rigidness and more flexibility.

In comment 12391754 Torrag said:

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Quote: Spags was virtually an accidental hire. MOOPS : 1:23 pm : link : reply There literally was no one else available at that time and for the price the Giants would pay.

TC was hanging onto his job by the skin of his teeth.
It was pretty late into the off-season and most of the known quality people were already hired.
Money available for a new DC was significantly less than $1 M.
Spags had a new 2 year deal as a positions coach on the table with the Eagles, which had to be signed by the following Monday. Spags was ready to sign it on Friday and drop it off, but his wife told him to wait, just in case he got a call from anyone. He got the call late that day, met with the Giants on Saturday morning and signed on as DC at that point.
They weren't on his radar and the Giants were desperate and basically had to hire someone, anyone.

And essentially you're saying Spags was the next guy on a short list of candidates Moops. Hyperbole all you want.

"fired" or was his contract just not renewed?

In comment 12391872 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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"fired" or was his contract just not renewed?

Depends on what you definition of "is" is.

In comment 12391868 Torrag said:

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And essentially you're saying Spags was the next guy on a short list of candidates Moops. Hyperbole all you want.

Cost of a contract in 2006 WAS a very big deal for the Giants in 2006, with TC hanging by a thread and Gilbride promoted to OC for, if I recall correctly, $600 K.
No hyperbole.

In comment 12391868 Torrag said:

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And essentially you're saying Spags was the next guy on a short list of candidates Moops. Hyperbole all you want.

I'm pretty sure we had to be turned down by Gregg Williams and Jim Haslett. Those hirings arguably could have been disastrous for us. Haslett is not a good DC, and Williams has the bountygate stuff attached to him now.

Spags was a highly thought of assistant at the time. IIRC, the Vikings tried to interview him and Reid denied it the year prior.

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People close to Spagnuolo say he was in the running to become the Minnesota Vikings' defensive coordinator in 2006, but Reid wouldn't release him from his contract. Reid was worried that longtime defensive coordinator Jim Johnson would take a head-coaching job, and Reid wanted Spagnuolo to move into that slot.

NJ.com - ( New Window )

the Giants are cheap with coordinators perpetrate a myth that simply isn't true.

For many years, the Giants had one of the highest paid staffs in the league.

I'm baffled at how the idea they have been cheap started in the first place, unless it was just foisted upon us by uninformed posters, which is likely the case.

IIRC it stems from one guy, Gregg Williams, who wanted more money than they offered him. People just ran with it after that.

If they're going to have a coordinator carousel, they might as well have ditched Quinn as well, who is terrible. Special teams is much too underrated, IMV. So many games seem to be decided to some degree by special teams play (and penalties) so it baffles me that more emphasis isn't placed on special teams and Quinn just hasn't been inspirational, to say the least.

Coordinators are easier to find than experienced winning head coaches.

I remember people started that shit back when Fassel was named coach saying that instead of getting a better "name", we settled on a guy so we could pay him peanuts.

Then it started being applied to coordinators.

It goes against history, but I guess some dumbasses don't care.

It's not like it impacts the salary cap. The Giants are a lucrative business. Even taking into account stadium financing, debt service, etc I just can't see a situation where if the Giants wanted to spend on a coach they deemed worthy they wouldn't do so.

The determining factor in Spags initial contract was the fact he was a first time coordinator. He was an unproven commodity. This was his shot to make his mark. These deals are typically entry level for the position.

That's how they did it until the Cowher-Whisenhunt-LaBeau jackpot came up.

how Tom Quinn still has a job as a coordinator.

some questionable hiring/keeping/firing at the position coaches level, as well.

In comment 12391516 micky said:

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He did after all have a d good enough to get a championship..which a lot over look

Fewell got a Super Bowl on the coat tails of Eli. The defense was terrible that year, but got some inspired play at the right time. That team got to the SB entirely on Eli's arm and the passing game.

He will never be fired. If he leaves it will be on his terms.

was the HC from 92-2006

Ron Erhardt the OC resigned due to offensive philosophy conflict with Cowher

Dom Capers - left to be HC of the Panthers.
Dick L left because of money issues and went to the bengals as the DC

Chan G. - HC of Dallas

Haslett HC

Ray Sherman OC resigned after taking the blame for the seasons first losing season since 1991.

Mike Mularchy HC of the Bills
Kevin Gilbride fired
Tim Lewis fired

all the leadership attributes and attention to detail Coughlin has, I am surprised only 1 coach has become HC in his coaching tree. Hufangel went to the CFL to be a HC. Spags was the NFL HC. Tim Lewis has never again sniffed a DC job. I am surprised Bill Sheridan got another shot in Tampa Bay.

was a good coordinator but couldn't adapt his scheme to a bad oline IMO that was the problem there. I think this was magnified by the fact that TC and Gilbride shared the same offensive philosophy so there was some groupthink that went on between them IE neither of them had great ideas on how to fix the oline problem with the scheme they had in place. That's why we saw a lift last year some new ideas on how to get the ball out quicker and help the oline. More evidence of this is that it looked better as the season wore on and players had more experience in the offense. I can't tell you how many years as the weather got worse the offense looked worse because we would still be calling all the same deep drops and complex option routes in 20+ MPH winds. IMO that is going to hurt Eli's hall of fame chances. I think if he's in the same offense in a western division his career numbers look substantially better.

IMO Fewell, Lewis and Sheridan were part talent issues part not very good coaches. Also, I think TC is better at assessing offensive coordinator talent than defensive. Since he is a better offensive mind he can also mask a bad offensive coordinator more than bad defensive one.

In comment 12392052 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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the Giants are cheap with coordinators perpetrate a myth that simply isn't true. For many years, the Giants had one of the highest paid staffs in the league. I'm baffled at how the idea they have been cheap started in the first place, unless it was just foisted upon us by uninformed posters, which is likely the case.

Hey Fatman

You're generally a well informed poster, but sometimes you get carried away with unnecessary name calling Like now.
I never said the Giants were cheap. Fact of the matter is Coughlin was on his original Giants contract, which called for either $2M or 2.5M (I think 2). That put him far from the top tier pay-wise among NFL Head Coaches. That also meant that any DC would be paid substantially less, in the ballpark of what Gilbride was getting, give or take.
Being Coughlin was on double secret probation and very possibly not lasting beyond next year AND could not pay top dollar, the options were limited.
The cash draw opened for the coaching staff AFTER the Super Bowl win. Remember that? It's fact.