NFT: WSJ:Holocaust Victims Mocked in Ohio St Band Parody Songbook

why call something a holocaust when it is genocide?

Was it more a sacrifice by the jewish community or was it the deliberate killing of a particular ethnic group?

This came up again in discussion this week with some friends and I had little to contribute to the discussion. I guess I had never bothered to ask the question.

More than a genocide

Signing about hanging nigg***s from a tree a few months ago at Oklahoma. There's stupid, but then there is behavior that outright can't be associated with a university.

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You know Joey's not an idiot.....he's a BBI expert WideRight : 4:52 pm : link : reply So calling him an idiot is dumbing down the dialogue just as those band members have.

Joey has been an angry lunatic on this board for a while now.

Here's a pretty good overview, from HuffPo:
History And Meaning Of The Word ‘Holocaust' - ( New Window )

In comment 12394637 napoleon said:

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Signing about hanging nigg***s from a tree a few months ago at Oklahoma. There's stupid, but then there is behavior that outright can't be associated with a university.

One major difference: The Oklahoma frat did not have any African American members, so they were racist xenophobes. While I don't know for sure, I would bet the OSU band had some jewish or part-jewish band members, so it was parody in poor taste..

It was a fun father-son project, and we drew on the recollections of relatives all over the world. That's how we learned about our cousins who lived in Kiev until the Germans and their collaborators arrived. Two branches of my father's family tree simply end at September 30th, 1941: from what we were able to piece together, four generations - ages two to eighty-seven - were erased in a day.

People who joke about the Holocaust usually fit into two categories: the ignorant, who can be helped, and those who would have joined the fun at Babi Yar, given a chance. There are far more of the first group, and I think the kids in the band were mostly - probably all - in this category. Once they understand what they've been joking about, they will stop joking. A screening of Shoah will do them a lot more good than public excoriation on the Internet.

Funny how no Jewish person who had relatives die in the Holocaust would write a song like that....why not, if it's all in good fun? And why try to hide the song if these guys didn't recognize how distasteful and hateful it was?

Antisemitic attitudes are very much on the rise throughout the US and Europe, as are antisemitic acts of violence. To see this as just kids being kids is amazingly lacking in both empathy for Jews and also suggests a lack of knowledge and concern for this increase in antisemitic violence.

In comment 12394558 WideRight said:

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So calling him an idiot is dumbing down the dialogue just as those band members have.

Just because he may know something about football, doesn't mean he can't be a complete idiot in other subject areas.

As another poster said above - he's been an angry lunatic for quite some time...

In comment 12394669 WideRight said:

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In comment 12394637 napoleon said: Quote: Signing about hanging nigg***s from a tree a few months ago at Oklahoma. There's stupid, but then there is behavior that outright can't be associated with a university. One major difference: The Oklahoma frat did not have any African American members, so they were racist xenophobes. While I don't know for sure, I would bet the OSU band had some jewish or part-jewish band members, so it was parody in poor taste..

Maybe. But it could also be that the Jewish members of the band (if there were some) were almost expected to accept or at least not complain about it if they wanted to still be in the band. Sometimes the desire to be part of a group or better yet, the fear of being left out of a group is pretty freaking compelling. Compelling enough for one to swallow their pride or disgust to be part of something they see as being worth it.

In comment 12394697 yatqb said:

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Funny how no Jewish person who had relatives die in the Holocaust would write a song like that....why not, if it's all in good fun? And why try to hide the song if these guys didn't recognize how distasteful and hateful it was? Antisemitic attitudes are very much on the rise throughout the US and Europe, as are antisemitic acts of violence. To see this as just kids being kids is amazingly lacking in both empathy for Jews and also suggests a lack of knowledge and concern for this increase in antisemitic violence.

I dont agree anti semitism is on the rise. But whether it is or isnt, the holocaust, along with slavery.are two of the most.disgraceful events in human history. Joey apologizing for that is a joke.

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By Jonathan Soch - The Washington Times - Wednesday, April 15, 2015 Last year was one of the worst in a decade for violent anti-Semitic incidents, according to an annual study released Wednesday that tracked reported instances of threats and violence against Jews all around the world. The report by Tel Aviv University’s Kantor Center for the Study of Contemporary European Jewry tracked thousands of incidents of anti-Semitism and counted 766 violent anti-Semitic acts including attacks, vandalism at cemeteries and religious sites, and direct threats against persons or institutions such as synagogues, schools, community centers and private properties. Most of the incidents came in Europe and the United States.

Another article on an ADL study:

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An Anti-Defamation League (ADL) 2014 survey found that more than a quarter (26%) of those surveyed in over 100 countries was infected with anti-Semitic attitudes. 54% never heard of the Holocaust. These are only some of the frightening headlines of The ADL 100: An Index of anti-Semitism. 53,100 adults in 102 countries and territories were surveyed. ADL estimates that 1.09 billion people out of a total adult population of 4,161,578,905 are deeply infected with anti-Semitic attitudes. In Western Europe the survey found that 24% or 79 million adults out of a population of 332 million harbored anti-Semitic attitudes. Greece tops the list with 69% holding anti-Semitic attitudes (6.3 million out of an adult population of 9,168,164), followed by France with 37% (18 million out of 49,322,734 adults) and Spain with 29% (11 million out of 37,966,037). At the bottom of the list is Sweden with 4% (300,000 out of 7,446,803 adults), and the Netherlands 5% (650,000 out of 13,095,463). In Eastern Europe, the average level of anti-Semitic attitudes were 34% with Poland at (45%), Bulgaria at 44%, and Serbia at 42%, Estonia at 22%, and Slovenia at 27%. The Czech Republic registered the lowest at 13%. In the Americas the ADL survey found lower overall levels of anti-Semitic attitude among adults than in Europe at 19%. Panama, where a wealthy Jewish community exists, 52% of adults harbored anti-Semitic attitudes (1.3 million out of 2.4 million), followed by Columbia 41% (12 million out of 30,461,308), and the Dominican Republic 41% (2.6 million out of 6,302,522. At the bottom of the list was the USA with 9% of adults harboring anti-Semitic attitudes, found most prominently among college age adults. 21 million Americans out of an adult population of 237,042,682 were identified as harboring anti-Semitic attitudes. Canadian adults with anti-Semitic attitudes amounted to 14% (3.8 million in a population of 27, 168,616 adults). Brazil was the third lowest with 16% (22 million in an adult population of 135,545,027). The Middle East and North Africa registered the highest level of anti-Semitic attitudes among adults in the world with 74% of the total adult population – translating to roughly 200 million of an adult population of 275,147,371. The West Bank and Gaza Arabs scored a whopping 93% (1.9 million out of 2,030,259). Ironically, Iranian adults had the least anti-Semitic attitudes with 56%. Still, In Iran, 29 million in an adult population of 52,547, 264, expressed anti-Semitic views.

In comment 12394718 yatqb said:

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Quote: By Jonathan Soch - The Washington Times - Wednesday, April 15, 2015 Last year was one of the worst in a decade for violent anti-Semitic incidents, according to an annual study released Wednesday that tracked reported instances of threats and violence against Jews all around the world. The report by Tel Aviv University’s Kantor Center for the Study of Contemporary European Jewry tracked thousands of incidents of anti-Semitism and counted 766 violent anti-Semitic acts including attacks, vandalism at cemeteries and religious sites, and direct threats against persons or institutions such as synagogues, schools, community centers and private properties. Most of the incidents came in Europe and the United States. Another article on an ADL study: Quote: An Anti-Defamation League (ADL) 2014 survey found that more than a quarter (26%) of those surveyed in over 100 countries was infected with anti-Semitic attitudes. 54% never heard of the Holocaust. These are only some of the frightening headlines of The ADL 100: An Index of anti-Semitism. 53,100 adults in 102 countries and territories were surveyed. ADL estimates that 1.09 billion people out of a total adult population of 4,161,578,905 are deeply infected with anti-Semitic attitudes. In Western Europe the survey found that 24% or 79 million adults out of a population of 332 million harbored anti-Semitic attitudes. Greece tops the list with 69% holding anti-Semitic attitudes (6.3 million out of an adult population of 9,168,164), followed by France with 37% (18 million out of 49,322,734 adults) and Spain with 29% (11 million out of 37,966,037). At the bottom of the list is Sweden with 4% (300,000 out of 7,446,803 adults), and the Netherlands 5% (650,000 out of 13,095,463). In Eastern Europe, the average level of anti-Semitic attitudes were 34% with Poland at (45%), Bulgaria at 44%, and Serbia at 42%, Estonia at 22%, and Slovenia at 27%. The Czech Republic registered the lowest at 13%. In the Americas the ADL survey found lower overall levels of anti-Semitic attitude among adults than in Europe at 19%. Panama, where a wealthy Jewish community exists, 52% of adults harbored anti-Semitic attitudes (1.3 million out of 2.4 million), followed by Columbia 41% (12 million out of 30,461,308), and the Dominican Republic 41% (2.6 million out of 6,302,522. At the bottom of the list was the USA with 9% of adults harboring anti-Semitic attitudes, found most prominently among college age adults. 21 million Americans out of an adult population of 237,042,682 were identified as harboring anti-Semitic attitudes. Canadian adults with anti-Semitic attitudes amounted to 14% (3.8 million in a population of 27, 168,616 adults). Brazil was the third lowest with 16% (22 million in an adult population of 135,545,027). The Middle East and North Africa registered the highest level of anti-Semitic attitudes among adults in the world with 74% of the total adult population – translating to roughly 200 million of an adult population of 275,147,371. The West Bank and Gaza Arabs scored a whopping 93% (1.9 million out of 2,030,259). Ironically, Iranian adults had the least anti-Semitic attitudes with 56%. Still, In Iran, 29 million in an adult population of 52,547, 264, expressed anti-Semitic views.

I don't think there is much upside in classifying someone as anti-semetic. Most people struggle to love themselves and those closest to them. Life is damn hard for all of us most of the time. Struggle breeds frustration and eventually the impulse to blame (ourselves and others). Whomever happens to appear to either be responsible for that frustration or who appears to be untouched by it are likely to become the explanation.

The way we have lived as a race since we started writing things down isn't ideal and it doesn't encourage selflessness as often as it encourages the drawing of lines in the sand.

I'm proud to say that so far I don't dislike any identified group of people more than another. We are all equally challenged the best I can tell.

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Struggle breeds frustration and eventually the impulse to blame (ourselves and others). Whomever happens to appear to either be responsible for that frustration or who appears to be untouched by it are likely to become the explanation.

There are people who are quite well off that are racists and antisemites. Henry Ford and Walt Disney were two of the most famous antisemites and they were hardly struggling. And I don't think the people who join the KKK do it because they think blacks are responsible for their struggles or that blacks appear to be untouched by whatever is causing their particular struggle.

Here is a link to Mark Twain's article (written in 1898) on the subject of antisemitism....
"Concerning the Jews" - ( New Window )

is that these parodies were self-deprecatingly written by Jewish members of the band with not very funny senses of humor. Kind of like, you can't make fun of Jewish people that way, but I can.

But still, it would be in poor taste and stupid.

In comment 12394770 Milton said:

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Quote: Struggle breeds frustration and eventually the impulse to blame (ourselves and others). Whomever happens to appear to either be responsible for that frustration or who appears to be untouched by it are likely to become the explanation. There are people who are quite well off that are racists and antisemites. Henry Ford and Walt Disney were two of the most famous antisemites and they were hardly struggling. And I don't think the people who join the KKK do it because they think blacks are responsible for their struggles or that blacks appear to be untouched by whatever is causing their particular struggle. Here is a link to Mark Twain's article (written in 1898) on the subject of antisemitism.... "Concerning the Jews" - ( New Window )

I can name a dozen people I know who have never struggled for food, shelter or any superficial thing in their entire life and yet they are miserable, angry and frustrated people. Our ability to adapt may be our greatest strength but it is also our greatest flaw in many ways. We will find a way to long for something we don't have no matter how much we do have, and we will too often blame another for it.

I don't find it helpful to focus on any one group no matter how often that group happens to be targeted. Pick any place on the planet and you will find the same struggle with only the colors and sounds to change the story.

...is that jews and blacks are different than whites and people tend to distrust and/or hate those who are different.

Mark Twain re: jews....

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By his make and ways he is substantially a foreigner wherever he may be, and even the angels dislike a foreigner. I am using this word foreigner in the German sense - stranger. Nearly all of us have an antipathy to a stranger, even of our own nationality. We pile gripsacks in a vacant seat to keep him from getting it; and a dog goes further, and does as a savage would - challenges him on the spot. The German dictionary seems to make no distinction between a stranger and a foreigner; in its view a stranger is a foreigner - a sound position, I think. You will always be by ways and habits and predilections substantially strangers - foreigners - wherever you are, and that will probably keep the race prejudice against you alive.

write some racist shit in a song book years ago, and then dudes on a Giants message board wind up quoting Mark Twain.

What a world.

In comment 12394708 jingle_jangle said:

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In comment 12394697 yatqb said: Quote: Funny how no Jewish person who had relatives die in the Holocaust would write a song like that....why not, if it's all in good fun? And why try to hide the song if these guys didn't recognize how distasteful and hateful it was? Antisemitic attitudes are very much on the rise throughout the US and Europe, as are antisemitic acts of violence. To see this as just kids being kids is amazingly lacking in both empathy for Jews and also suggests a lack of knowledge and concern for this increase in antisemitic violence. I dont agree anti semitism is on the rise. But whether it is or isnt, the holocaust, along with slavery.are two of the most.disgraceful events in human history. Joey apologizing for that is a joke.

For the record, I am not apologizing for slavery or the holocaust and to suggest that is ridiculous. I'm not OK with what they did, I just don't get the point in getting so worked up over some stupid teenagers. Stupid people don't deserve attention, good or bad.

And before anyone plays the racist card, my late father in law was Jewish and I sat by that man's bedside day and night for a week as he failed and died. I carried his body to the hearse, I laid him to rest and I cried for him harder than I cried for any of my own family. So yes clearly I'm an anti-semite. In fact, he was one of the people who taught me that it wasn't smart to get all riled up about stupid people and what they dd or say.

And as for slavery, I have 2 black brother in laws and 6 biracial nieces and nephews who are the world to me, but yeah me not flying off the handle at what some band nerds think is funny makes me a slavery and holocaust apologist. The horses some of you ride in on would make falling off fatal.

You're clearly not racist and don't share these thoughts. Accusing you of such is irresponsible. But I just don't see how you don't think this is a huge deal. It's hurtful, racist, and worst of all, institutionalized within a backwards program (till about a year ago).

In comment 12394512 Model4001 said:

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In comment 12394275 Joey in VA said: Quote: Team songs came to light, the world would puke on itself. These are playful stupid joking songs that teenagers laugh about. No one is marching anyone into an oven ffs. Enough with the outrage over every little thing every single person does, my lord when does it end? Yeah, I had ancestors who were cooked in Nazi ovens, but I should just get over it and have a good laugh about it. Maybe next they can write a song about how funny slavery was... Joey, you're a fucking idiot.

This is precisely my point and you proved it. There ARE songs about slavery and lynching black people, SAE in Oklahoma got busted for just that. It's the same fucking thing, yes it's outrageously stupid but that's what outrageously stupid people do when they get in groups.

NOWHERE did I say you should laugh about it, your reading comprehension is fucking awful. I said THEY laugh about it, they are stupid, why let it get you so riled up? People who are clearly stupid should not get to you, regardless of what they say. People get all worked up over the KKK, just laugh at them for being stupid, if you give in to their brand of hatred and return fire they got the exact response they want. Words give people power over you if you let them and I refuse to do that. You want a bunch of fat nerdy band dorks who are 19 years old to determine your mood because they don't have the common sense to know what is and is not OK to joke about? Stupid kids said stupid stuff, film at 11. Why is this so shocking to anyone? Why is this so frightening to you? You actually think I'm advocating them or what they said? Again, poor reading comprehension is your problem not mine, just like getting all whipped over some fuckhead teenagers is your problem, not mine.

In comment 12394697 yatqb said:

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Funny how no Jewish person who had relatives die in the Holocaust would write a song like that....why not, if it's all in good fun? And why try to hide the song if these guys didn't recognize how distasteful and hateful it was? Antisemitic attitudes are very much on the rise throughout the US and Europe, as are antisemitic acts of violence. To see this as just kids being kids is amazingly lacking in both empathy for Jews and also suggests a lack of knowledge and concern for this increase in antisemitic violence.

We clearly disagree and you're way off base on me. I have empathy for plenty of people who have been wronged, what I am suggesting is that kids don't really get that. I have no empathy because I think children are capable of thoughtless stupidity? That's quite a reach.

In comment 12395004 Mike in Long Beach said:

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You're clearly not racist and don't share these thoughts. Accusing you of such is irresponsible. But I just don't see how you don't think this is a huge deal. It's hurtful, racist, and worst of all, institutionalized within a backwards program (till about a year ago).

For someone I sort of considered at least a BBI friend, don't address me any further. You called me a raving lunatic not too far up the page, a real helpful addition to the discussion.

the Amish's "backwards" way of life? Where there joke lyrics about LDSers or Jehova's witnesses? Because there's some great material there, and there are plenty of Amish and Mormons in Ohio to poke fun at in a fuck of a lot more light hearted ways than to make a joke of people being herded into trains to gas chambers to "burn."

No one (at least not I) is saying you are anti-semitic or a racist.

But in this thread you have shown to be rather remarkably insensitive to, frankly, quite blatant anti-semitism.

In comment 12395018 Joey in VA said:

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In comment 12395004 Mike in Long Beach said: Quote: You're clearly not racist and don't share these thoughts. Accusing you of such is irresponsible. But I just don't see how you don't think this is a huge deal. It's hurtful, racist, and worst of all, institutionalized within a backwards program (till about a year ago). For someone I sort of considered at least a BBI friend, don't address me any further. You called me a raving lunatic not too far up the page, a real helpful addition to the discussion.

First off, I'll address whomever I want. If you choose not to reply, that's totally up to you. Second... BBI friend? The reason I said you've been a raving lunatic for a while is because literally every exchange I've had for you for God knows how long has been you hurling insults at me. The only difference now is, this behavior is in many many posts these days. Not just me and select others. And it's not just insults... it's shit like this. What the Hell are you doing on this thread?

Even if you believe this shit, did you really think it would go over well? Did you think shrugging your shoulders at institutionalized Holocaust jokes was going to work out?

Yeah, I get it. You don't care about it working out... you're just speaking your mind. But this is just vile shit (what these kids did, not you), and defending it in any capacity just does nothing for yourself or anyone else.

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I can name a dozen people I know who have never struggled for food, shelter or any superficial thing in their entire life and yet they are miserable, angry and frustrated people.

And are they all racists and/or antisemites? Because I know people who are well-to-do and yet miserable/angry/frustrated, but they are not racists and/or antisemites. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

p.s.-- Trying to explain racism and antisemitism with a one liner that can fit on a fortune cookie is what isn't helpful.

In comment 12395022 BlueLou said:

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the Amish's "backwards" way of life? Where there joke lyrics about LDSers or Jehova's witnesses? Because there's some great material there, and there are plenty of Amish and Mormons in Ohio to poke fun at in a fuck of a lot more light hearted ways than to make a joke of people being herded into trains to gas chambers to "burn." No one (at least not I) is saying you are anti-semitic or a racist. But in this thread you have shown to be rather remarkably insensitive to, frankly, quite blatant anti-semitism.

Lou, kinda the point though, people don't really get what they don't see. Is Ohio chock full of Jews? My guess is that people singing those songs haven't met Jew one and haven't sat down with people who lived through that (for the record I have on several occasions) nightmare. Their lack of understanding is probably what drove this, not unmitigated antisemitism and hatred. At least in my view, stupidity and ignorance usually help pile up on the wrong side of an opinion.

I'm in no way exonerating or saying it's ok, that idea has to be put to bed quickly because it's just wrong. I think reacting to stupid teenagers with such vitriol and incredulity is a disservice to anyone with common sense. I guess I've seen enough racism and hatred up close that nothing surprises me and I've found that getting all bent out of shape doesn't help me. My former brother in law called my father in law a Jew within earshot of me..."I'm not painting that Jews house just because I'm living here"..I promise you those words were never uttered by him again after what I said to him in private. BUT he, as a grown man with a family whose own family was saved by this Jewish man, he had perspective and he was still hateful. A group of yokels on a bus as teenagers thinking they're clever isn't something that gets my dander up, because stupidity at that level is usually not worth anyone's time.

I may be a complete idiot for thinking it's not intentionally a bunch of Jew hating white kids, but rather some idiots with no perspective just trying to be edgy and cute.

In comment 12395043 Mike in Long Beach said:

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In comment 12395018 Joey in VA said: Quote: In comment 12395004 Mike in Long Beach said: Quote: You're clearly not racist and don't share these thoughts. Accusing you of such is irresponsible. But I just don't see how you don't think this is a huge deal. It's hurtful, racist, and worst of all, institutionalized within a backwards program (till about a year ago). For someone I sort of considered at least a BBI friend, don't address me any further. You called me a raving lunatic not too far up the page, a real helpful addition to the discussion. First off, I'll address whomever I want. If you choose not to reply, that's totally up to you. Second... BBI friend? The reason I said you've been a raving lunatic for a while is because literally every exchange I've had for you for God knows how long has been you hurling insults at me. The only difference now is, this behavior is in many many posts these days. Not just me and select others. And it's not just insults... it's shit like this. What the Hell are you doing on this thread? Even if you believe this shit, did you really think it would go over well? Did you think shrugging your shoulders at institutionalized Holocaust jokes was going to work out? Yeah, I get it. You don't care about it working out... you're just speaking your mind. But this is just vile shit (what these kids did, not you), and defending it in any capacity just does nothing for yourself or anyone else.

I'm shrugging my shoulders at a bad tasteless joke that I've heard about blacks, asians, africans, europeans, cubans, americans, whites, indians...it never ends. I've heard the N songs and jokes, every bad asian accent and hackneyed nursery rhyme people think is funny. Yes, I'm shrugging at it because I've heard it, you've heard it, the outrage isn't there for me because we live in a shitty world full of shitty people.

What am I going to do about it Mike? Should I launch a campaign to get the guy fired who wrote it? Should I force him to watch the holocaust films I saw in history class that made us all sick? Should I hold his head in the toilet and give him a swirly for all the mean things he said? You can't fix stupid brother, and I may be a lot of things but I am not that. Does that mean I condone it? Give me a break here. And fix it? Fix what, stupidity? Good luck doing that. The school will address it, purge it from the program hopefully and that will be that. WTF am I going to do about it? This WILL happen again, somewhere with some group and 99% of us will never know it's going on. Will you be outraged at what you can't see but know exists?

The tone of your last response sounds more like you, so good.

IDK, but I'd assume Ohio State and Columbus have plenty of Jews around, like many college towns. And knowing the Jewish proclivity to music, there were surely plenty of Jewish band members; it's mentioned in the linked article from the WSJ. One of my best friends from HS, a Jewish kid who was a terrific trumpet player, went to a big 10 school (Indiana U) for their excellent music program and the scholarship they offered him.

These are college kids - not HS kids where it might be more easily brushed off as puerile humor.

I simply think you are taking this too lightly, even making excuses for these kids that frankly don't deserve them. It's a bad argument to make IMO, and prolly not worth the time we've (BBI) has put into it.

But no shit it's anti-semitic.

I'm not outraged by it. I think it's wrong; probably in a very similar capacity that you do.

But it boils down to this:

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If Rugby Joey in VA : 3:06 pm : link : reply Team songs came to light, the world would puke on itself. These are playful stupid joking songs that teenagers laugh about. No one is marching anyone into an oven ffs. Enough with the outrage over every little thing every single person does, my lord when does it end?

This was your introduction to this thread. It had virtually nothing to do with the actual offense and everything to do with marginalizing any negative reaction here and everywhere else. I could be wrong, but I think the majority of BBI isn't saying these kids deserve a life-long banishment from their college or the music industry.

But you took it a step further and said not only is it not that big of a deal, but told people who could potentially be deeply offended by it "enough." That's why you've gotten flack for me and everyone else. Not necessarily for defending the action, but dismissively judging others for not reacting the way you did.

I have slight disagreement with you on "how bad it is." I do think it's worse than you say... simply because it wasn't at some house party one random Saturday night, but rather, an on-going joke within what's supposed to be one of the most respected groups in the American college experience... the Ohio State marching band.

But our disagreement there is small. The bigger disagreement is when you told others how to feel about it.

perceived as being bigoted whether they were intentionally meant to be taken in such a manner openly or were supposed to happen behind doors as a joke/parody. To tell others to stop being so sensitive in their response seems out of line, in my opinion.

Personally, I think it's stupid what these band members did, but I'm not going to call for their heads. However, that also doesn't mean that I'm going to just chalk it up to "kids will be kids," as acts like these have the potential to instill in the group a certain mindset that some of the more impressionable members will take with them beyond this particular act once they leave the group. Racism and bigotry don't survive because there are such overwhelming number of racists and bigots in our nation. They survive because these racists and bigots are allowed to carry on their ways with people condoning it as something that isn't "so bad" or whatever other rationalization that people may hide behind.

I believe Joey was referring to songs sung by every rugby club across the country. The lyrics are normally despicable, but I don't believe are sung with "hate" by the majority. Search the rugby song Jesus Saves for instance. I agree that some in the group may latch on and take it to far, but seriously doubt all these kids are filled with hate. I see it as more "taboo offensive humor" than actually believing what they sing. There are songs about all religions, rape, homosexuality, beastiality, race, etc.

There used to be lines in comedy that were not crossed as certain issues were just not to be joked about. Somewhere along the way that disappeared for certain people and all topics became an equal ground. It's all fair game or none of it is. I hope this comes across the right way. I am not saying it is right, and I am not appologizing for these kids (and they are kids) I'm trying to understand where it comes from inside them.

In comment 12395298 BigBlue in Keys said:

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I believe Joey was referring to songs sung by every rugby club across the country. The lyrics are normally despicable, but I don't believe are sung with "hate" by the majority. Search the rugby song Jesus Saves for instance. I agree that some in the group may latch on and take it to far, but seriously doubt all these kids are filled with hate. I see it as more "taboo offensive humor" than actually believing what they sing. There are songs about all religions, rape, homosexuality, beastiality, race, etc. There used to be lines in comedy that were not crossed as certain issues were just not to be joked about. Somewhere along the way that disappeared for certain people and all topics became an equal ground. It's all fair game or none of it is. I hope this comes across the right way. I am not saying it is right, and I am not appologizing for these kids (and they are kids) I'm trying to understand where it comes from inside them.

That is precisely the comparison I thought of when I heard this come out. The stuff that is sung is not meant to be mean spirited no matter what it sounds like, I took this in the same vein.

In comment 12395114 Mike in Long Beach said:

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I'm not outraged by it. I think it's wrong; probably in a very similar capacity that you do. But it boils down to this: Quote: If Rugby Joey in VA : 3:06 pm : link : reply Team songs came to light, the world would puke on itself. These are playful stupid joking songs that teenagers laugh about. No one is marching anyone into an oven ffs. Enough with the outrage over every little thing every single person does, my lord when does it end? This was your introduction to this thread. It had virtually nothing to do with the actual offense and everything to do with marginalizing any negative reaction here and everywhere else. I could be wrong, but I think the majority of BBI isn't saying these kids deserve a life-long banishment from their college or the music industry. But you took it a step further and said not only is it not that big of a deal, but told people who could potentially be deeply offended by it "enough." That's why you've gotten flack for me and everyone else. Not necessarily for defending the action, but dismissively judging others for not reacting the way you did. I have slight disagreement with you on "how bad it is." I do think it's worse than you say... simply because it wasn't at some house party one random Saturday night, but rather, an on-going joke within what's supposed to be one of the most respected groups in the American college experience... the Ohio State marching band. But our disagreement there is small. The bigger disagreement is when you told others how to feel about it.

On your last point I concede. It really is something I believe in, that telling people how to feel is NEVER OK and I guess I did that and for that I am sorry. My initial post was more of a "here we go again" with months of dissection, people's lives being disrupted who did something when they were stupid teenagers and the invariable outcry and eventual virtual beatdown they will receive.

Perhaps I was too hasty in my statement, but as BigBlueKeys just alluded to, my first thought was the Rugby songs we used to sing and how vile they were but not one person really meant any of the words.

words have meanings. Whether said in a state of comradery or spirit of competition, words of songs or chants mean something different to those, who are saying them and to those who are hearing them.

Some people will take it in stride and chalk it up to nothing more than "kids being kids." Others will take exceptions to such despicable things being said, especially if we are to believe that these are kids saying them. Why are we condoning kids saying such callous and stupid things and letting it pass because it's been done before in various rugby or whatever else competitions or lockerrooms? Have we become so lackadaisical about teaching proper respect and values that we just chalk it up to some right of passage for kids just being stupid?

I'm just throwing out what the other side may be thinking with regards to this topic of discussion.

But thought that was how you meant it.

".. as acts like these have the potential to instill in the group a certain mindset that some of the more impressionable members will take with them beyond this particular act once they leave the group."

At first, because I don't see it as hateful and because I don't take it further I wouldn't think others would. But you are right that a few may end up taking it way too far as they see it as acceptable. I would be more concerned at truly being offensive before thinking it was recruiting racists.

On a serious note, if you were a rugby coach would you be worried about your job because you heard your kids sing these songs? Do you have to stop them now?

is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke (or was it John Stuart Mill?)

As Ronnie pointed out upstream there is the potential for a mindset creep to occur where the reprehensible becomes accepted or tolerated when left unchallenged.

One courageous student standing up and demanding this stupidity be ended might have stopped this early on. Then again maybe that courageous kid would have been "shunned." what greater honor than to be shunned for doing the right thing?

occur to me. But by adopting an attitude of "kids will be kids" I believe that you (1) minimized the power that behavior such as this has in making antisemitic thought and action acceptable for public expression by those inclined toward such attitudes and behaviors, thus furthering its growth; (2) minimized the impact it can have on those who have suffered losses in the Holocaust. Whether that can be constituted as showing a lack of empathy in this particular instance (not globally, mind you) can be debated, but seems to me to be a reasonable conclusion.

Go Giants.

Lol, I guess there's always one.

I could be wrong, I don't think Joey's main message was "kids will be kids".
He's talking about empowering an idiot or idiots by reacting too strongly to the fact that they're idiots or extremely immature. Chide them and move on.

Unless they drink out of your beer. Then you kick their ass.

For the record, I'm not sure I agree with him, but I certainly understand his point of view.

In comment 12394730 RasputinPrime said:

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In comment 12394718 yatqb said: Quote: Quote: By Jonathan Soch - The Washington Times - Wednesday, April 15, 2015 Last year was one of the worst in a decade for violent anti-Semitic incidents, according to an annual study released Wednesday that tracked reported instances of threats and violence against Jews all around the world. The report by Tel Aviv University’s Kantor Center for the Study of Contemporary European Jewry tracked thousands of incidents of anti-Semitism and counted 766 violent anti-Semitic acts including attacks, vandalism at cemeteries and religious sites, and direct threats against persons or institutions such as synagogues, schools, community centers and private properties. Most of the incidents came in Europe and the United States. Another article on an ADL study: Quote: An Anti-Defamation League (ADL) 2014 survey found that more than a quarter (26%) of those surveyed in over 100 countries was infected with anti-Semitic attitudes. 54% never heard of the Holocaust. These are only some of the frightening headlines of The ADL 100: An Index of anti-Semitism. 53,100 adults in 102 countries and territories were surveyed. ADL estimates that 1.09 billion people out of a total adult population of 4,161,578,905 are deeply infected with anti-Semitic attitudes. In Western Europe the survey found that 24% or 79 million adults out of a population of 332 million harbored anti-Semitic attitudes. Greece tops the list with 69% holding anti-Semitic attitudes (6.3 million out of an adult population of 9,168,164), followed by France with 37% (18 million out of 49,322,734 adults) and Spain with 29% (11 million out of 37,966,037). At the bottom of the list is Sweden with 4% (300,000 out of 7,446,803 adults), and the Netherlands 5% (650,000 out of 13,095,463). In Eastern Europe, the average level of anti-Semitic attitudes were 34% with Poland at (45%), Bulgaria at 44%, and Serbia at 42%, Estonia at 22%, and Slovenia at 27%. The Czech Republic registered the lowest at 13%. In the Americas the ADL survey found lower overall levels of anti-Semitic attitude among adults than in Europe at 19%. Panama, where a wealthy Jewish community exists, 52% of adults harbored anti-Semitic attitudes (1.3 million out of 2.4 million), followed by Columbia 41% (12 million out of 30,461,308), and the Dominican Republic 41% (2.6 million out of 6,302,522. At the bottom of the list was the USA with 9% of adults harboring anti-Semitic attitudes, found most prominently among college age adults. 21 million Americans out of an adult population of 237,042,682 were identified as harboring anti-Semitic attitudes. Canadian adults with anti-Semitic attitudes amounted to 14% (3.8 million in a population of 27, 168,616 adults). Brazil was the third lowest with 16% (22 million in an adult population of 135,545,027). The Middle East and North Africa registered the highest level of anti-Semitic attitudes among adults in the world with 74% of the total adult population – translating to roughly 200 million of an adult population of 275,147,371. The West Bank and Gaza Arabs scored a whopping 93% (1.9 million out of 2,030,259). Ironically, Iranian adults had the least anti-Semitic attitudes with 56%. Still, In Iran, 29 million in an adult population of 52,547, 264, expressed anti-Semitic views. I don't think there is much upside in classifying someone as anti-semetic. Most people struggle to love themselves and those closest to them. Life is damn hard for all of us most of the time. Struggle breeds frustration and eventually the impulse to blame (ourselves and others). Whomever happens to appear to either be responsible for that frustration or who appears to be untouched by it are likely to become the explanation. The way we have lived as a race since we started writing things down isn't ideal and it doesn't encourage selflessness as often as it encourages the drawing of lines in the sand. I'm proud to say that so far I don't dislike any identified group of people more than another. We are all equally challenged the best I can tell.

I.dont doubt there is anti semitism. I just dont think it's on the rise anymore then anti Muslim hate. The anti defamation league is a political arm of israel. Nor wood I listen to al sharpton describe race relations in the us.

Southern Poverty Law Center (decidedly not an arm of the Israeli govt.) but just grabbed the first two links I googled. The Premier of France discussed this same rise in antisemitism in France last year, and came down hard on it -- although it hasn't stopped the acts of violence against Jews and Jewish institutions, synagogues, etc.

Gotta go play 18 now!

In comment 12395813 yatqb said:

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Southern Poverty Law Center (decidedly not an arm of the Israeli govt.) but just grabbed the first two links I googled. The Premier of France discussed this same rise in antisemitism in France last year, and came down hard on it -- although it hasn't stopped the acts of violence against Jews and Jewish institutions, synagogues, etc. Gotta go play 18 now!

good luck!

that you didn't think anti-Semitism was on the rise, and now it just isn't on the rise any more than anti-muslim sentiment - what's your angle here?

In comment 12395991 jingle_jangle said:

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In comment 12395813 yatqb said: Quote: Southern Poverty Law Center (decidedly not an arm of the Israeli govt.) but just grabbed the first two links I googled. The Premier of France discussed this same rise in antisemitism in France last year, and came down hard on it -- although it hasn't stopped the acts of violence against Jews and Jewish institutions, synagogues, etc. Gotta go play 18 now! good luck!

Are you a former poster under a different handle? Your comments sound very familiar to me.

In comment 12394801 Milton said:

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...is that jews and blacks are different than whites and people tend to distrust and/or hate those who are different. Mark Twain re: jews.... Quote: By his make and ways he is substantially a foreigner wherever he may be, and even the angels dislike a foreigner. I am using this word foreigner in the German sense - stranger. Nearly all of us have an antipathy to a stranger, even of our own nationality. We pile gripsacks in a vacant seat to keep him from getting it; and a dog goes further, and does as a savage would - challenges him on the spot. The German dictionary seems to make no distinction between a stranger and a foreigner; in its view a stranger is a foreigner - a sound position, I think. You will always be by ways and habits and predilections substantially strangers - foreigners - wherever you are, and that will probably keep the race prejudice against you alive.

This is actually interesting given the oft repeated injunction in the Torah to remember "you too were strangers in Egypt" and many laws that require humane treatment (and inclusion) of the strangers or sojourners among the Israelites.

are that rugby players sound like a bunch of neanderthal, cock-monkeys.

In this case - as he often did - Twain overstated the facts to make a point. In German, there actually are different words for foreigner (Ausländer) and stranger (Fremder). But his basic point is correct. The English "You're not from around here, are you?" translates best into German as "Sie sind fremd hier, nicht?" - the unsubtle linguistic hint being that all things not native and local are also unfamiliar, strange and unworthy of trust.

This association is hardly unique to German. Consider the French étranger, which hardly conveys a positive view of foreigners.